DEBT: the first 5,000 years

[David G]

Has anyone read this book? I'm 50+ pages into it, and am finding it very interesting. Economics from an anthropologist's viepoint - centered around the notion of money and debt. I'm hugely intrigued.

[purri]

It's a whitefella construct...

[bobbys]

Has anyone read this book? I'm 50+ pages into it, and am finding it very interesting. Economics from an anthropologist's viepoint - centered around the notion of money and debt. I'm hugely intrigued.

.

Your reading a book about Debt?.

And to think you wanna be my liberal!

[Glen Longino]

.

Your reading a book about Debt?.

And to think you wanna be my liberal!

[Glen Longino]

It's a whitefella construct...

Ha! Non-whitefellas were paying off shamans and creating debts to imaginary gods long before whitefellas showed up!
Credit where credit is due!

[purri]

So how you know these "universal truths" eh Troglongino?

[skuthorp]

All 'gods' are imaginary I reckon purri. Useful, valuable to a culture to the point of giving sentient beings a reason for their existence and an explanation for phenomena that other species don't seem to need (as far as we know) but I reckon purely a construct.

[LeeG]

It's a whitefella construct...

and a few other fella

[skuthorp]

There are all sorts of 'debt', the one we refer to here is, I presume, capital debt. Contracted and enforced by law unless of course the debt is held by a nation so far in that they can't be allowed to fail or too powerful to enforce the contract against.
Other kinds of debt are personal, familial, societal: not quantified by money. Some debt is not debt at all, rather an obligation to help a fellow human being in distress, or the debt incurred by volunteers such as firefighters that cannot be repaid or are ever asked to be.

[LeeG]

sounds interesting, coincidentally I was reading Gail Tverberg's blog about increasing debt and resource overshoot made possible by the recent inheritance of fossil fuels, primarily petrol, in the last 60yrs.

http://ourfiniteworld.com/2012/06/08...ce/#more-25159

[skuthorp]

We've been making unsustainable withdrawals on the Fossil Bank, the Species Bank, the Sea Bank and others for over 200 years at least. One day all that 'debt' will bite us on the butt.

[purri]

All 'gods' are imaginary I reckon purri. Useful, valuable to a culture to the point of giving sentient beings a reason for their existence and an explanation for phenomena that other species don't seem to need (as far as we know) but I reckon purely a construct.

And on that note there are levels of understanding of the group dynamics of societies to solve respective issues. Horses for courses.

Maslow only got it right for a few of them.

[ChaseKenyon]

[QUOTE=purri;3444253]It's a whitefella construct...

Well said, my brother.

It's all about ego , the big EGO going for any way to control the masses whom they consider as "slaves "to their Oligarchy.

[McMike]

It's a whitefella construct...

Well said, my brother.

It's all about ego , the big EGO going for any way to control the masses whom they consider as "slaves "to their Oligarchy.

Wow!!! How and why did this become an anti-"white fella" thread? I'm actually greatly offended by the insinuation that greed is an issue originating from skin color and that one specific skin color is responsible for this perceived ill of society.

I can tell you that debt is universal and no culture is pure, no culture is Eden. There are mechanisms for profit and balance in every social construct, money is only one manifestation of this universal human condition, even in the most "communal" societies.

Think about it.

[L.W. Baxter]

Wow!!! How and why did this become an anti-"white fella" thread? I'm actually greatly offended by the insinuation that greed is an issue originating from skin color and that one specific skin color is responsible for this perceived ill of society.

I can tell you that debt is universal and no culture is pure, no culture is Eden. There are mechanisms for profit and balance in every social construct, money is only one manifestation of this universal human condition, even in the most "communal" societies.

Think about it.

Well said, my pale face brother!

[purri]

Wow!!! How and why did this become an anti-"white fella" thread? I'm actually greatly offended by the insinuation that greed is an issue originating from skin color and that one specific skin color is responsible for this perceived ill of society.

I can tell you that debt is universal and no culture is pure, no culture is Eden. There are mechanisms for profit and balance in every social construct, money is only one manifestation of this universal human condition, even in the most "communal" societies.

Think about it.

I refer to social contract and indebtedness as universal. Capitalism and money were never universal instruments.

[David G]

So... has anyone read the book?

[skipper68]

[QUOTE=ChaseKenyon;3445098]

It's a whitefella construct...

Well said, my brother.

It's all about ego , the big EGO going for any way to control the masses whom they consider as "slaves "to their Oligarchy.

THEY FTFU! Untreatable STD, starts with the letter "G". Take it for what it is. I think it is "Manufactured". Makes sense. Baby daddy's have 16 kids by 27yrs old.

Very questionable... Am I TD now? Miss him.

[McMike]

I refer to social contract and indebtedness as universal. Capitalism and money were never universal instruments.

Yet you willingly use them everyday, making them universal.

[purri]

^ I believe that we are discussing the historical context of the OT and arguments arising. Think about it.

[McMike]

Yesterday is history my friend. I'm trying to take your bigoted statement in stride while fully expecting that at any moment you will see my point and apologize.

[purri]

See #20. Thank you.

[Glen Longino]

See #20. Thank you.

Methinks you're trying to hold whitefella responsible for "capitalism and money", assuming that darkfella never would have invented it on his own?

[McMike]

Methinks you're trying to hold whitefella responsible for "capitalism and money", asuming that darkfella never would have invented it on his own?

Yeah, since we all came from "dark fella", who do you think invented murder, rape, incest, conservatism . . . flipping ridiculous , as was your statement Purri.

[purri]

I believe both of you are philosophically off topic. I understand that a monetary system and attendant effects were an outgrowth of domestication of species and enclosed farming lands originating in the Middle East.

Circumstance and conditions give rise to societal "coping mechanisms", end of story. Now, back to the OP eh?

[L.W. Baxter]

Purri, I understand your point as long as it is limited simply to the invention of concepts. Every idea has an origin, and if you think "money and debt" as concepts originated in Europe, you may be incorrect, but not racist. The objectionable post in my opinion was Chase's, suggesting that Ego and the tendency to enslave others is a "white thing", which is demonstrably bull****.

[David G]

Since there seems to be a bit of interest in the topic... let me recommend that y'all read the book. I'm finding it quite interesting.

[RonW]

I would like to see a factual book on DEBT - THE LAST 5 YEARS..

[Kaa]

I would like to see a factual book on DEBT - THE LAST 5 YEARS..

You live in the age of the internet. Most of the data is freely available online in the usual places. If you like fearmongering and doomsday wailing, it's available in the usual places as well :-D So I don't see what it is that you lack...

Kaa

[David G]

You live in the age of the internet. Most of the data is freely available online in the usual places. If you like fearmongering and doomsday wailing, it's available in the usual places as well :-D So I don't see what it is that you lack...

Kaa

By wanting to focus just on the last 5 years... without a larger context... and by other evidence shown here in the Bilge at various times... I'd speculate that what he lacks is a functioning capacity for critical thinking. Some people simply want to be spoon-fed information (disinformation?) that reinforces their preconceived notions.

Kaa - I don't suppose YOU have read the book? Very liberal slant, but interesting way to look at the history of money/debt nonetheless.

[RonW]

kaa -

So I don't see what it is that you lack...

Try the real facts....yea the internet helps, but there is still so much that is hidden or cooked on the books it ain't funny.........
Now that is what I would like to see that is lacking, as well as real media reporting the facts to the american people.......

[Kaa]

Kaa - I don't suppose YOU have read the book? Very liberal slant, but interesting way to look at the history of money/debt nonetheless.

Nah. I know *of* this book, but I haven't read it. A reviewer whose opinion I respect had this to say about it: "Do you seek an overly verbose, sometimes fascinating synthesis of economic anthropology, early 20th century credit theories of money, and the history of debt? The book overinterprets early historical evidence and falls apart as it approaches contemporary times, still it has a vitality which many other tracts lack." :-)

But I'm usually more interested in what people think rather in what they have read. So, any strking points that changed your worldview? Did the book change your mind about anything?

Kaa

P.S. I am not sure that Graeber can be fairly described as a liberal (in the current-US meaning). There are more dimensions in the political/economic space than a single liberal vs. conservative axis.

[Kaa]

kaa -

Try the real facts....yea the internet helps, but there is still so much that is hidden or cooked on the books it ain't funny.........
Now that is what I would like to see that is lacking, as well as real media reporting the facts to the american people.......

What are "real facts" and how will you know whether the fact presented to you is "real" or not?

Kaa

[McMike]

Purri, I understand your point as long as it is limited simply to the invention of concepts. Every idea has an origin, and if you think "money and debt" as concepts originated in Europe, you may be incorrect, but not racist. The objectionable post in my opinion was Chase's, suggesting that Ego and the tendency to enslave others is a "white thing", which is demonstrably bull****.

+1.

[Dave Wright]

Life is too short to spend time reading an anthropologist's thoughts on economics

[David G]

KAA - No conclusions yet. With a tome like this, I tend to nibble, digest, think ahead to where he might be leading, compare his information to what I already 'know', and form only the most tentative of conclusions initially. It is a verbose book, which is disagreeable, and I'm trying not to let that sidetrack me. If there's anything good worth sharing at the end, I shall. But... that was part of my motivation for asking if others had read it - thinking about wading thru it, and whether it would be (in the end) worthwhile.

Dave W - I find economics a fascinating and illuminating lens thru which to view the world. I'm finding the notion of an anthropologist's take on these aspects of economics to be quite intriguing. I know it's not likely to have a wide appeal, but I look for enlightenment where I can. It's a complex world, and the more I can understand it, the happier I am.

[Dave Wright]

Dave W - I find economics a fascinating and illuminating lens thru which to view the world. I'm finding the notion of an anthropologist's take on these aspects of economics to be quite intriguing. I know it's not likely to have a wide appeal, but I look for enlightenment where I can. It's a complex world, and the more I can understand it, the happier I am.

Maybe my view is biased. In university I met the usual number of young women majoring in anthropology, and I highly recommend those encounters for enlightment and intrigue of a more earthy nature, but not economic enlightenment

[Kaa]

Maybe my view is biased. In university I met the usual number of young women majoring in anthropology, and I highly recommend those encounters for enlightment and intrigue of a more earthy nature, but not economic enlightenment

Um, and what would you recommend for economic enlightenement? Surely not reading economists! :-)

Kaa

[Dave Wright]

.... Surely not reading economists! :-)

Kaa

Yes! Take your pick.

[cckl]

yes ! I got that book for my mum for Christmas - ('borrowed' it back to read late Christmas morning ! )
Got distracted a few chapters in, but will get around to finishing before end of year.
if you like it, i recommend michael lewis' stuff.
also, rankly conservative though it may sound, Greenspan's memoir, the bit about the S&L crisis and the RTC were really neat to read in today's context. It also helped me understand the politics of years either before my time or before I was cogent... .

[David G]

It's an interesting book. I might even be tempted to say it's a good book. It has its flaws. Wordy as all get out. Unnecessarily so. Weak on the economics. I ended up skimming the last 1/2+... because I got weary of the ponderous verbiage. But the concept is one I still find intriguing. I actually have an economist friend who's writing a book with some overlapping topics... but a very different approach. He read "Debt..." as part of his research, and agreed with my take - only more vociferously and snidely.

[Dave Wright]

I felt a bit guilty discounting Graeber's book without actually reading it so I now have a hold on it at the library. We'll see what it's like when it shows up, although I tend to trust my first impressions. I wasn't about to buy the book to support an anarchist's wine drinking and womanizing.

I really would prefer to read "A History of Interest Rates, 3rd Edition," by Homer and Sylla, but I haven't been able to dig that book up yet.

[David G]

Dave - after my initial excitement... I'm not sure I'd actually recommend it. I'm mostly glad I read it. There ARE some interesting bits. But Hay Zeus... what a slog.

[Flying Orca]

What are "real facts" and how will you know whether the fact presented to you is "real" or not?

"Real facts" include stuff like chemtrails.

[Kaa]

"Real facts" include stuff like chemtrails.

Had to look that up :-) but yeah, sure, you raise your eyes to the sky and there they are! Moreover, on a very regular basis drops of liquid fall from the sky onto my tinfoil (accept no substitutes -- aluminum foil is inferior) hat -- that is a clear and irrefutable proof!

Kaa

[Flying Orca]

I hear you. And so does RonW, who may or may not know about the inferiority of aluminum foil, but is a True Believer(tm) when it comes to chemtrails... or so he has said.