Shop Teacher Looking For Design Suggestions

[jtdums]

I would like to pick the collective brain here for suggestions for a craft design suitable for a school project coming up in the fall.

My school, Community School of Davidson, (Davidson, NC) is offering a 3 day intercession in the fall for students. The idea of the intercession is to take kids out of their regular classrooms for a "hands on" learning experience. I am going to have a group of about 10 kids building boats. I teach our wood arts program, but have no boat building experience. We do have access to typical school shop tools.

Our goal is to complete a boat, within this time frame, that would be "marketable" enough to sell at our fall school fundraiser to offset the costs of construction and hopefully create further interest and partially fund a future boat project for my classes in the spring. (Public school so no money in the budget for this project. I'll personally be out of pocket until the boat sells and then reimbursed.)

I have looked at lots of designs (I'm thinking stitch and glue or polyurethane adhesive), and have some ideas, but lack the expertise to judge the feasibility of some designs in the limited time frame.

1. Time limit is 3 days for construction and doing as much finishing as feasible
2. Limited budget (think teacher salary)
3. School is near an inland lake (Lake Norman)-Kids have access to the water for launching
4. These are high school students and by and large really good kids.

Questions:

• With ten kids should we shoot for two small craft so all hands are kept occupied?
• Should I pre-scarf plywood so we can get right into lofting and cutting?
• Although I would love to do a CLC type kit and stick to the family boat build time frame, I just can't swing the cost without feeding my kids raman noodles all fall. Consequently, plan recommendations would be greatly appreciated.
• What have I forgotten to ask?

I have looked at peace canoe, bevin's skiff, weekend dingy, etc.

My goal is to decide on a plan in the next two weeks so I can do a practice build over the summer and be ready for kids to build this fall.
Thanks in advance for any help offered.

[Escargot18]

The 6-Hour Canoe has plans and a chapters devoted to building these boats in a classroon environment.

[jtdums]

I've ordered this book and will give it a serious look. Anyone built these in the classroom?

[Paul Pless]

Have you been to or looked in to any of the Family Boat Building events?

http://www.woodenboat.com/family-boatbuilding

[NickW]

How about some of Bateau.com boats? A flat bottomed skiff http://www.bateau.com/proddetail.php?prod=FL12 or the Nice Canoe 16 http://www.bateau.com/proddetail.php?prod=NC16 and their Cheap Canoe which is a free plan http://www.bateau.com/freeplans.php . Spira also has free plans as well as some free boat building information http://www.spirainternational.com/index.html and here http://www.spirainternational.com/hp_free.html .

Nick

[TR]

For $1.95 each you can buy the plans and instructions on building the Salt Bay Skiff from our hosts. They are volume 7 and 8 of the "Getting Started in Boats" series published as inserts in WoodenBoat issues #199 and 200. The Salt Bay Skiff was designed (by my friend Chris Franklin) with building with and by kids in mind.

[potomac]

I think that Salt Bay Skiff is a handsome little skiff. What a value. That whole series is actually.

I would think doing a dry-run build with cheap materials would certainly hasten the real build. Pre-scarfing would be faster, but it's such a great time to show the use of hand planes (if they are available in the shop)- sharpening too. As a former teacher, I would be hesitant to choose a design that absolutely required epoxy as an adhesive or sealer. I just don't like putting kids into contact with potentially toxic materials. Of course, you are already dealing with dangerous tools and you know your kids so I guess you have to make the call. The flip-side is that epoxy is considered by many to be the finest adhesive available and it affords the opportunity to show kids how to properly deal with such materials, but I still wouldn't use it.

[rbgarr]

For $1.95 each you can buy the plans and instructions on building the Salt Bay Skiff from our hosts. They are volume 7 and 8 of the "Getting Started in Boats" series published as inserts in WoodenBoat issues #199 and 200. The Salt Bay Skiff was designed (by my friend Chris Franklin) with building with and by kids in mind.

I'm not finding the $1.95 offer you mention on the WB website: http://www.woodenboat.com/boat-plans...salt-bay-skiff

[Lewisboater]

You could also take a look at the "Wacky Lassie"... This has been done in Alaska with and by kids. Taking the basic plans and extending them by a couple of feet will allow larger paddlers (I expect yours are in high school).

http://www.boats.backwater.org/Wacky...cky_Lassie.htm

[jtdums]

I have not been to a family boat building event, but I have been reading up on them and that is basically where my idea for this three day project grew out of for this year.
Incidentally, I have a brother that lives in Norwalk, CT and they have done a successful kids build at the show there. Maybe I'll try to get up there this September.

I have looked at the bateau plans and downloaded the free canoe plan from them as well. I actually like it better than the peace canoe for weight.
Having just launched into this build, I bought my first issue of WB mag at the news stand and have hinted strongly that a subscription would be a great fathers day gift.
Unfortunately, I have missed the salt bay skiff plan. Certainly would be a bargain at only $2. ( I only see it listed as $50)

The Wacky Lassie plan I considered too, I thought it might be a little undersized for High School aged students, (looks like it can handle up to about 90lbs.) but I don't really know.

Loving the comments and help! Thanks.

[Andy Mcconkey]

I've never built a skin on frame boat, but it would seem a good choice for what you're looking for. Fairly affordable, lot's of hand tool usage, sewing, carpentry...

[jtdums]

The free Bateau plan looks to be a build that we could pull off in the allotted time (3 days).
I think I'm still inclined to try to get the plywood scarfed together ahead of time so we don't get to a stopping point for too long.
As far as epoxy goes, I have used epoxy in the past with excellent results so I'm inclined to use it for this project. Safety is #1 always in my shop so I think that we can comfortably use epoxy if all the correct precautions are taken.

[jtdums]

I actually contemplated the Geodesic Airlite canoes (Dacron on frame) by Platt Monfort, since they have also been done successfully with kids, but wasn't sure about the time requirement.

[potomac]

I'm not finding the $1.95 offer you mention on the WB website: http://www.woodenboat.com/boat-plans...salt-bay-skiff

It's in the digital downloads section. All the Getting Started in Boats stuff is there, I believe.
Here's the link: http://www.woodenboatstore.com/categ...ting_started/a

[potomac]

I actually contemplated the Geodesic Airlite canoes (Dacron on frame) by Platt Monfort, since they have also been done successfully with kids, but wasn't sure about the time requirement.

If you are considering skin-on-frame, you really should look at Dave Gentry's designs and plans. They are reasonably priced and probably the quickest build you could hope for. They are also quite lovely. Financial outlay will be less than almost any boat using proper materials. You can find his website here:
http://gentrycustomboats.com/

Here's one of his, the Shenandoah Whitehall:

Using marine grade fir ply and clear fir for the stringers (the wood available in my neck of the woods), you can probably build this boat for $250 all told. It's hard to imagine building any but the simplest design faster and as you can see, that ain't no six-hour canoe.

[kenjamin]

Check out the Peace Canoe:

http://www.clcboats.com/shop/boats/c...-boat-kit.html

[Ben Fuller]

John Gardner did a dory and a skiff designed exactly for your needs, but maybe hard to do in 3 days. They are in one of his later books.

[jtdums]

I'll look for that book by Gardner too.
Thanks.

[gstanfield]

I think the huntington harbor (free plans) from Spira International would be a good candidate.
http://spirainternational.com/hp_hunt.php

[jtdums]

I like the huntington harbor design, but I wonder if we could pull it off in 3 days. At this point I'm leaning toward the free bateau "cheap canoe" design.
I would love to solicit criticism/commentary of this as a choice. Anyone out there actually build one?

[gstanfield]

I've built the cheap canoe and I helped my brother build a huntington harbor so I have a pretty good comparison of the two. Both are good boats and both come from good designers so you can't go wrong either way.

The main difference lies in the CC14 being designed for epoxy/fiberglass construction which means time waiting for goop to dry, spreading fillets and laying tape. It's not a bad method at all, but can be a tad messy and not as "woodworking" as a ply on frame design. The HH12 is built with frames and chine logs instead of goop so you lay it out, plane the chines and put the panels on with some glue. The CC14 could be built a little cheaper when you figure the goop can dry overnight, but I doubt you'd have a hard time completing the HH12 within a 3 day session. I'm trying to remember how much time my brother had in his HH12, I think it was about 20 man hours spread out over a couple of weekends.

Simply put, you can't go wrong either way!

[jtdums]

I went ahead and bought a $10 plan for bateau's "nice canoe". It's construction is similar to the free one, and the lines are supposedly fairer. For $10 I thought it well worth the gamble. I'll report on it when I get the plan.

[Carl Cramer]

At our Family BoatBuilding events, we've had great success with Alexandria Seaport Foundation's Bevin's Skiff.

She can easily be built in three days by kids.

AND, with your program in mind, you can download the plans, for free, here:

http://www.woodenboat.com/build-boat

Best of luck in your search, and please let us know how you're progressing.

Thanks, Carl

[Jamesh]

How about summer breeze?
nice skiff easy to build only 10 cuts and you have the pieces ready too assemble.

Just a thought.

James

At our Family BoatBuilding events, we've had great success with Alexandria Seaport Foundation's Bevin's Skiff.

She can easily be built in three days by kids.

AND, with your program in mind, you can download the plans, for free, here:

http://www.woodenboat.com/build-boat

Best of luck in your search, and please let us know how you're progressing.

Thanks, Carl

[jtdums]

I'm not familiar with Summer Breeze so I'll take a look at that design. Thank you for the suggestion.

[Tom Lathrop]

All of the replies have been about choices of sutable boats but your greater need is for a leader or mentor who knows how to do this kind of project. Corky Grey, who lives very near to you in Southmont is just this kind of guy and he sometimes works with young people in boatbuilding projects. Corky builds and restores traditional canoes in his shop, many of which are for the artist Bob Timberlake. http://www.the-dispatch.com/article/...cles/911254040

[Bert Langley]

Don't forget that part of his requirement is that the boat be readily marketable after the build. To me that leaves out the simple canoe type designs and makes an argument for something like the bevins skiff.

[Maximus]

If you were looking for a couple nice, small sailing craft you can check out Rado's page, I'm finishing the 4.5m boat, too much for you, but a nice design. Also B and B's Mandy I believe was designed for classroom quick building and is a handsome little boat.









Good luck, let us know how it turns out.
Brent

[Tom Lathrop]

Among all the other candidates is the boat we currently use in the Sikaflex boatbuilding challenge at Beaufort, NC and Georgetown, SC contests. Some of the teams building these 12 foot skiffs are high school students. Plans can be had from the designer or from the SC Maritime Museum in Georgetown. I'm sure that the museum Director, Susan Sanders will offer them free and I also have a set of plans. The boat is similar to the Bevins Skiff and a few of the others but with some differences to suit the contest conditions. It is a nice little skiff that would serve well. http://www.woodenboatshow.com/index....d=36&Itemid=38

[Bram V]

The issue with marketability might become that when you sell a boat, you may be considered a boat trader, with every nasty bit that comes with it. I heard about people burning boats they used for years and that still have a lot of life in them, just so they avoid the hassles and liabilities that come with selling a boat. I'd certainly hate to see your project die by someone who sues.

Maybe you can find some way to recoup the costs, but do be careful. I remember a discussion on this forum about this very issue, strengthening my idea not to thrust anyone else's life with my project.

[Tom Lathrop]

Mandy is a nice little boat that also sails well in that version. The family boatbuilding building model is a CNC kit with quite a few pre-cut parts that may put it out of your budget though. It is stitch and glue while most of the others are more traditonal plywood on frame.

[David Geiss]

I think that a nice Skin over frame double paddle canoe or kayak would, for a minimal cash outlay, expose your students to a variety of skills, most important of which could be proper use and sharpening of hand tools. Introduce a kid to a spokeshave or nice hand plane and watch his or her face light up...will you get the same reaction from a bandsaw, jointer or epoxy application? And, you would end up with a craft that someone can reasonably use and maintain.

Plus there's the lashing, whipping, fabric cutting, sewing, painting and paddlemaking on a shave horse...well you get the picture.
Best,
David

[mcdenny]

I did a similar project with about half a dozen high school kids working two hours after school two days a week for a couple of months.

We sold raffle tickets for the finished boat and brought in about $2000. As you are surely aware the kids can hit up parents and relatives to buy tickets no matter what the prize is. If people understand the proceeds go to a good purpose or charity they are more liked to buy.

Denny Wolfe

[Carl Cramer]

[QUOTE=Maximus;3446094]If you were looking for a couple nice, small sailing craft you can check out Rado's page, I'm finishing the 4.5m boat, too much for you, but a nice design. Also B and B's Mandy I believe was designed for classroom quick building and is a handsome little boat.

I can second MANDY as well. At last year's Family BoatBuilding at The WoodenBoat Show, three were built. At THIS year's, it'll be an even dozen. For those of you interested, please stop by the Family BoatBuilding tent. Families will be building the 16' Sassafras canoe from CLC and B&B's MANDY. Both will be completed in less than three days.

[Tom Lathrop]

I said that Mandy is stitch and glue construction. That is not quite accurate as much of Mandy in the CNC model snaps together with interlocking tabs. This makes quick construction that much quicker.

[Maximus]

I forgot to ad links in my earlier post.

http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/

Radosław Werszko
www.dinghy.pl

Brent

[cbcc]

Newt by Warren Jordan. My daughter and I build one for her senior thesis for college. It's a great boat and totally doable in 3 days with some prep work ahead of time.

[Andrew B.]

I just finished a Ladybug skiff and with a little pre-work it could be done in 3 days and might not break the bank. The lumberyard and brockway are about the same boat I think. Build the transom and the side pieces ahead of time and I think an unpainted hull could be done in under 3 days. Mine took a couple months but there was a lack of funds and time to overcome.

[JEM]

I'm in Greensboro. Shoot me an email and we can discuss.

Matt

JEM Watercraft

[Autonomous]

Beware of free plans. I speak from experience.
There are a few good ones but many will lead to an expensive disaster.

[Lewisboater]

Beware of free plans. I speak from experience.
There are a few good ones but many will lead to an expensive disaster.

Yes...beware of the old public domain plans... much is missing or assumed about a lot of them. They were churned out to meet a do it yourself fad over nearly half a century but many of them aren't very good as either plans or boats and the designers aren't around to ask questions of should you need to.

[Autonomous]

Not just the old ones...

[Jay Greer]

The three day building time constraint is very risky for unskilled labor to accomplish a build boat that will sell in. No matter which boat you choose to build, might I be so bold as to suggest that, you build one in private first. This will give you a firm plan in your mind as to how to avoid a Chinese Fire Drill! Two boats would be twice the mayhem! Co-ordination of the team or teams is an absolute must!
Spring tides for your project.
"No ethnic slur intended."
Jay

[David G]

This may all be moot for the OP, since his inquiry was from back in June... with nothing from him since.

For posterity, though, I'll throw Storer's "Quick Canoe" into the mix. Serviceable, decent-looking boat when you're done, and very quick to build:

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/st...c150/index.htm

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

go to svensons.com they have alot of full plans from speed boats to paddle wheels all for free ,and in todays economy free is all I can afford anyway,good free plans leave more $ for material.

Bateau did a S&G version of Svenson's "Plyak". The Plyak plans from Bateau are not cheap but the boat has the benefit of modern computerized design concepts, lighter weight, much simpler construction and shorter construction time. So the price of the plans seems worth it.
But, I doubt that a bunch of kids could build one in three days, tho'.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

My friend built a minimost 2 years ago and payed $65 for plans ,I downloaded mine from svensons for free and we compared them before I started this build and they are the very same in every dimension ,someone just copied the old plans without the old PM pics and sold them as there (complete plans) so really just know how to read plans,study them,make sure you are confident that you can figure out anything left out and build it.Dont assume just because you paid big $ for plans that every little detail will be there,with that being said most free plans ive seen leave a little for you to figure out,but thats half the fun I like a challenge.

If you are aiming that comment at me I am well aware of that scam. Some years ago someone posted a thread asking if a certain book of plans ( I believe there were hundreds of plans ) was worth $65. I told him to go to the svenson site and compare. It was mostly the same stuff. It's not illegal if the plans are out of copyright.

The plans I was refering to were a complete makeover of the svenson Plyak done by a naval architect in a different and more modern style of construction. The new Playak was bigger, lighter, swedeform and could carry a hundred pounds more weight. In short it was a much more scientific craft and the plans were worth the money.

[davebrown]

The Weekend Skiff has a booklet that seems aimed at the project you are describing. Minimal power tools required.

[jtdums]

Didn't mean to abandon the thread. Sorry about that. Our school pushed back the dates for our project build to the spring from the fall so I have been procrastinating.
I appreciate the help and guidance received so far.

I still haven't yet decided which craft to build with the kids, but with limited time and funding I am leaning toward a Huntington Harbor kayak by Spira International. I could have the strong back and maybe even the frames ready to go to save time. (3 day build is very limiting) Also, I like the idea of limiting the use of epoxy with the kids this first time out. Chine construction seems to be an advantage given my time constraints. Advice on caulking tube type adhesive would certainly be welcome. (3M 5200, sikaflex 291, ect.)

We have a fourth 1/2 day now built into the schedule, but I would like to reserve that day for the kids to to a "launching" and have a chance to really appreciate the fruits of their labors. (Nice "carrot" for the end of the week to keep them motivated and on task.)

[Peter Lord]

This may all be moot for the OP, since his inquiry was from back in June... with nothing from him since.

For posterity, though, I'll throw Storer's "Quick Canoe" into the mix. Serviceable, decent-looking boat when you're done, and very quick to build:

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/st...c150/index.htm

I was one of the 7 builders of two Quick canoes in France last fall, with Michael Storer the designer supervising. You can't get much simpler in plywood. A simple flat bottomed canoe. We were all experienced yet it took 7 days to build them. We had no time to paint them as paint takes a while to dry so we coated the ply with epoxy only. Glue takes time to harden before you can go to the next stage that's an unavoidable fact. As the ply and wood was nice we planed the chine logs etc. If you want to sell the boat you have to have a reasonable finish and that takes time and a certain skill. I can't believe people are suggesting complicated wooden boats with many parts and even sailing dinghies to build in 3 days. Andrew Linn in Oregon chose fuselage skin-on-frame canoes for his community boatbuilding in Toledo, Oregon*. These kids managed to ASSEMBLE them in 3 days BUT he had the frames cut out of the plywood and the stringers and gunwales etc cut so had a kit of parts ready. As long knot-free wood for stringers, gunwales etc is hard to get and expensive these long parts will have to be scarfed or butt-joined. Another day gone. I have built a skin-on-frame canoe. The advantages of the Blandford/Gentry/Yost fuselage method are:
Cheap so if you don't sell it you are not out more than a couple of hundred dollars. Construction grade WPB or MDF ply is OK.
Tolerance of error is high. Ply boats have to fit together reasonably well or the gaps caused by wavy saw cuts be filled with a lot of epoxy and glass. The frame of SOF can be pretty rough but as long at the parts are reasonably well fastened the flexible cloth covers everything.
You don't have to wait for anything to harden or dry except the paint on the skin.
No epoxy needed, although some do use it to fasten the stringers etc to the frames. Should kids be messing with epoxy and other stinky glues in a class away from parents? You can't guarantee that they wil be careful and use gloves and mask. What if one becomes allergic?
Lashing takes some time but if you have enough kids it could be done I suppose if they don't get in each others' way. Ask Andrew Linn. For my canoe I used 5/8" ply frames instead of 1/2" and long decking screws with predrilled holes to prevent the wood from splitting. Staples for the cloth fastened at the gunwale. Sewed the ends at the stem and stern. You could use cable ties instead of lashings. Inuits used whatever was available for their umiaks.
Coating and sealing the skin if polyester** can be done with oil-based paint or varnish. Need more than one coat so are you prepared that the boat won't be useable by the kids, regardless of the method? You can use latex paint but my experience was that it took 5 coats to seal the cloth so even if you wait only 2-3 hours for the latex to dry there goes your time again.

I suggest you get plans for the SOF padding canoe that you want, prepare all parts as much as posible ahead of time and have the kids assemble and paint it. Maybe they could get it assembled. put the skin on and paint it in 3 days and paddle the 4th day.

*http://www.andrewlinn.com/2011/1112f...uild/index.htm

**
DYSON, BAIDARKA & COMPANY
435 WEST HOLLY ST., BELLINGHAM WA 98225
Telephone: 360-734-9226
George Dyson <gdyson@gmail.com>

Skin Boats http://www.skinboats.org/skinboats/skinboats/home.html

KudzuCraft
http://kudzucraft.com/

Good luck!
Peter Lord

[jtdums]

Thanks for this insightful post. I have looked at the family build that they pulled off up in Toledo, Oregon and I am really impressed. The SOF boats do go together well and they end up with a beautiful craft. I think the week that they had was likely the minimum that I could conceivably pull off a SOF and have time for the kids to splash. I am trying to model my short time frame after the family build, long weekend schedule that has been successfully accomplished at many boat shows around the country.

In my heart, I still feel that I can pull off a three day, flat bottom plywood canoe build. I'm planning on a lot of prep work to make it possible. The "6 hour" canoe is a proven model that should enable this crazy three day schedule. However, I have admired the lines and versatility of the Bateau designed NC16 (Nice canoe) for some time and I plan on building one this winter and possibly modifying its design to encorporate chine log/ solid stem construction.

I have reached out to the designer to see if he believes this would work structurally and I will post here when I get an answer. If possible, I think with this modification, I could build the NC 16 in three days, with a splash on the 4th day with the hulls epoxy sealed. Paint/additional finishing could be done at a later date or even after school the following week.