How do you get a smooth finish with enamel paint?

[AndrewT]

I am painting our bare wood hull with marine enamel paint. So far, we have two coats of primer and two coats of paint, sanding lightly between each coat. We are using foam rollers to apply.

The paint feels smooth, but I can still see holidays and dark spots. Do I need to just keep doing what I've been doing until it's smooth and uniform in color? Or am I doing something wrong?

Also, is there any need to buff or wax it when finished painting to get the high-gloss?

[wizbang 13]

Pics help. (us)
ply or timber?
alkyd, latex , epoxy or urethane?
grits?
showboat or fishboat?

[CapnJ2ds]

Tipping off with a brush after rolling gives good results. Alternatively, try rolling paint on in the usual manner, then go over the area you've just done with another, dry, roller. Haven't tried this second method myself yet, but a pro whose work is consistently good uses it when spraying isn't required.

[AndrewT]

I'm posting via mobile phone today so no pictures just yet. The word is Cypress. Sanding between coats is with 220 grit paper. Primer and paint are both Marshall's Cove Marine paint brand.

[AndrewT]

This is a family runabout, so somewhere between a fish boat and a show boat. But my kids want me to "make sure it is shiny ".

[Mrleft8]

you can try using a retarder to slow the drying time, which should help the paint level itself a little more, but you also run into issues with runs and drips doing that... Remember that preparation is 7/8ths of the job when it comes to finishes..... The smoother your original surface, the easier it is to get a smooth finish. Try wrapping your 220 grit paper around a foam block, and keep sanding until there are no shiny spots. This will require you to stop several times and wipe everything down with turpentine, or thinner, and then wipe again with a dry cloth to remove any slurry or dust..... It's mind numbingly boring work, but it does the job.....

[Ian McColgin]

The roll&tip method does it. Most find it contributes to a good spread and keeping a wet edge to roll vertically and tip horizontally. On a high sided boat it's nice to have two or even three folk on the brushes, like one tipping out the top half and the other the bottom half. The roller can easily keep just enough ahead that the paint won't harden and the edge stays wet.

Most folk can do a clean brush stroke that's three or four feet long and you want the strokes to overlap what was tipped out before so if you're working down new paint that's about two feet wide, it should work fine. If working alone, roller in one hand and brush in the other, work about eighteen inches at a time and be sure there's Penetrol in the paint to slow it up nicely.

It's very easy to put on too much paint. Roll the excess out in the tray and run the roller slowly over the hull so you don't make splatter. There's one guy I watched who always wore clean cloths, no rubber gloves, and no face shield but he worked so clean . . . I find coveralls, gloves and face shield necessary.

[Jay Greer]

The application of gloss enamel is an art that takes a bit of time to learn. A point of interest is that Morgan automobiles were and maybe still are brush painted.
For primer coats, we use a guide coat over the last coat of primer. This is just a thin coat of primer that has a bit of color added to it in order to create contrast.
The guide coat is then sanded off with 220 grit paper. Any dings or bad spots will immediatly show and can be addressed with glazing compound if needed.
We do not use rolers for our work, prefering to use top quality enamel brushes. The Hamelton Co. of England still makes good enamel brushes. The paint must be mixed to brushing consistancy. Depending on humidity and temperature we may use #10 thinner which is for a day that is slow for drying of paint or #11 for a hot day. #11 is a retardent thinner. We also keep a mix of Penetrol and Turpentine that we call "Slide". Slide will emulsify the paint and make it easier to apply if it begins to pull under the brush. Using a cross hatch back and forth motion, the enamel is applied and then feathered in from the dry surface to the wet. Once the first coat is dry, it is sanded with 400 grit paper, tacked off and re-coated. A good painter can cover a thirty foot boat in about twenty to thirty minutes per side using this method. It goes without saying that the work area and surface being painted should be squeaky clean. We often wet down the ground around a boat to keep dust down.
Jay

[pcford]

The application of gloss enamel is an art that takes a bit of time to learn. A point of interest is that Morgan automobiles were and maybe still are brush painted.
For primer coats, we use a guide coat over the last coat of primer. This is just a thin coat of primer that has a bit of color added to it in order to create contrast.
The guide coat is then sanded off with 220 grit paper. Any dings or bad spots will immediatly show and can be addressed with glazing compound if needed.
We do not use rolers for our work, prefering to use top quality enamel brushes. The Hamelton Co. of England still makes good enamel brushes. The paint must be mixed to brushing consistancy. Depending on humidity and temperature we may use #10 thinner which is for a day that is slow for drying of paint or #11 for a hot day. #11 is a retardent thinner. We also keep a mix of Penetrol and Turpentine that we call "Slide". Slide will emulsify the paint and make it easier to apply if it begins to pull under the brush. Using a cross hatch back and forth motion, the enamel is applied and then feathered in from the dry surface to the wet. Once the first coat is dry, it is sanded with 400 grit paper, tacked off and re-coated. A good painter can cover a thirty foot boat in about twenty to thirty minutes per side using this method. It goes without saying that the work area and surface being painted should be squeaky clean. We often wet down the ground around a boat to keep dust down.
Jay

It should be pointed out that:

1. #10 and #11 are proprietary thinners for Z-spar paint. Use the appropriate thinner for your paint.
2. The system outlined above is perfectly appropriate for the user that is describing it above. There are other methods.

Some of the yards in Seattle are using Fine Paints of Europe paints and varnish. The results have been excellent...little short of amazing. Very easy handling and fast building.

[Brian Palmer]

The paint brand you are using (Marshall's Cove Marine Paint) will not give you a "high" gloss finish; it is a traditional alkyd enamel. It may be labeled "gloss" but it will not be the same gloss you see on an automobile or a piece of molded fiberglass (like a boat).

However, given the type of boat you are finishing, this type of finish will look appropriate. Rolling and tipping with a 4-inch foam brush will give you a nice finish as it smoothes out the stipple left by the roller. However, don't try to use the brush to actually move paint around to cover holidays. Otherwise, it sounds like you are on the right track.

Cheers,

Brian

[AndrewT]

I wasn't expecting a mirror-finish, but we'd like it to look nice (actually, my first choice was a pastel yellow, but my son decided fire-engine red would really be "faster" so there you go). I think I'm on the right track and just need to apply more finish coats. I'll apply finish coat #3 tonight and I think that'll get me just about all the way home.

[Sayla]

Does anyone spray paint?

[Lew Barrett]

People do spray but not often with wood and not frequently around these parts. Reasons for not spraying are many, but probably the fastest answer is that it buys very little benefit compared to a good roll and tip team, and many say the film thickness does not add up as quickly. Also can be a devil to match down the road when small repairs are needed.

There are a lot of small quirks (part of the art, as Jay might say) that distinguish various techniques, and this has been covered here so many times before that it's hard to do it again. However, things that require technique include:

cleaning: tacking off alone may not get it, tack clothes can be allies or enemies depending on how thay are used
masking: yes, there is a right way and wrong way and then there's my way
rolling on: there are tricks to getting an even coat rolled on, and that is the beginning of a good job
tipping off: a light and consistent touch is required, and an eye for where to catch drips and curtains before they start, (which is also part of the roller's job)
conditioning the material: what to use, how much, thinner or "slide" (to borrow Jay's term)
when to paint: conditions matter

So each step has adherents, believers and some art or science attached. Painting is most definitely an art and science.
If after two primer and two top coats you are not happy, then you do want to consider what there might be in your painting "vocabulary" that can be improved so you nail the results with the next coat. Don't repeat yourself if the results aren't what you expected.
Just for starters....

[tigerregis]

Yes, vocabulary is more than important; it can be life saving. Now, "cloths" are fabrics of woven vegetable or synthetic fibres. While "clothes" are vestments cut and sewn from those "cloths". It the same GD thing with "choise", show me the F'n word somewhere ex. this forum and I'll add it to my lexicon,FFS.

[Hunky Dory]

I spray paint a couple times a week,but on cars. I do body work for a living so when working on boats I prefer using a brush as It seems more like a hobby than a job. Plus I am learning new skills. Most wood boats wouldn't really look right with a shine like a car has anyway. Except maybe a cold moulded boat with no seams or laps.

[Cogeniac]

We rolled and tipped Makoto's top (17 feet long and 9 feet wide). We used Interlux Brightsides. This paint will level to a fine high gloss finish. If your surface isn't smooth, it will show every ding and divot. Had I had more time I would have used the guide coat described by Jay above. I also used this on cabinets inside, and it is like glass.

[pcford]

I should add here that I always recommend that newbys start with foam brushes. Most of the problems that newcomers find is laying on paint too heavily or unevenly...Roll and tip using a foamie will prevent this. As soon as you gain confidence...switch to a decent brush.

Also, remember the first commandment of painters: a holiday is to be preferred over a run.

By the way...3M has a guide coat product which it applied by a foam applicator. Check it out on Fisheries.com

[johnw]

Red paint is probably part of the problem. Unlike most colors, red paint tends to be a bit translucent, so you end up needing more coats. I know a contractor who adds 20% any time the client wants the paint red. I, of course, learned this after I had committed myself to painting my first Snipe restoration red. The contractor I referred to was also restoring a Snipe, and he made it yellow.

So, you might need a couple more coats than with a different color.

[Cogeniac]

Red paint is probably part of the problem. Unlike most colors, red paint tends to be a bit translucent, so you end up needing more coats. I know a contractor who adds 20% any time the client wants the paint red. I, of course, learned this after I had committed myself to painting my first Snipe restoration red. The contractor I referred to was also restoring a Snipe, and he made it yellow.

So, you might need a couple more coats than with a different color.

Often car guys will use white primer under red for this very reason...

[donald branscom]

Use lots of high build primer.
Sand until perfect.
Then apply good enamel paint and use that penetrol to make it flow.
Let it dry 3 years and sand and repaint again.

[Bob Cleek]

The application of gloss enamel is an art that takes a bit of time to learn. A point of interest is that Morgan automobiles were and maybe still are brush painted.
For primer coats, we use a guide coat over the last coat of primer. This is just a thin coat of primer that has a bit of color added to it in order to create contrast.
The guide coat is then sanded off with 220 grit paper. Any dings or bad spots will immediatly show and can be addressed with glazing compound if needed.
We do not use rolers for our work, prefering to use top quality enamel brushes. The Hamelton Co. of England still makes good enamel brushes. The paint must be mixed to brushing consistancy. Depending on humidity and temperature we may use #10 thinner which is for a day that is slow for drying of paint or #11 for a hot day. #11 is a retardent thinner. We also keep a mix of Penetrol and Turpentine that we call "Slide". Slide will emulsify the paint and make it easier to apply if it begins to pull under the brush. Using a cross hatch back and forth motion, the enamel is applied and then feathered in from the dry surface to the wet. Once the first coat is dry, it is sanded with 400 grit paper, tacked off and re-coated. A good painter can cover a thirty foot boat in about twenty to thirty minutes per side using this method. It goes without saying that the work area and surface being painted should be squeaky clean. We often wet down the ground around a boat to keep dust down.
Jay

Ah-yep... this is how it is done. ("Roll and tip" is for sissies... but we don't need to have that discussion again... ) I would only add that your base coat must be perfectly white if you want to cover with gloss white enamel. Any dark patches will show through and not be covered with the gloss.

Your paint should be about the consistency of "half and half," just a bit thinker than milk. You should aim to lay down three to four coats of gloss enamel. Rule One: IT IS ALWAYS BETTER TO SPREAD IT TOO THIN THAN TOO THICK! Multiple coats will take care of any holidays. If you get a run, you put it on too thick.

Also, wear sunglasses. Painting a white topside in the sun up close can make you "snowblind."

If painting a gloss color, you will have to put on a number of coats before the gloss layer is thick enough for the pigment to cover a white undercoat. Some tint their undercoats, or the last few undercoats, to match the color of the gloss.

I prefer to spray undercoat, but not gloss top coats. I spray because it dries quickly and brush strokes, which are more prominent in undercoat, which has talc in it to make sanding easier, tends to leave brush strokes unless you apply it really thin. I can go back with the gun and hit "grey" areas where the undercoat hasn't covered as much as it needs to without waiting for a full cure and then painting the whole topside just to thicken a smaller patch.

Unfortunately, thanks to the ecofascists, it's getting hard to find Penetrol in some places (SF Bay Area... ) They seem to think it causes global warming. So do farts. You can still get it mail order, though. You have to find some place where their brains aren't addled yet.

[chuckt]

Check out this guy painting using roll and tip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3UCEbGZmz0

[neoconocephalus]

Unfortunately, thanks to the ecofascists, it's getting hard to find Penetrol in some places (SF Bay Area... ) They seem to think it causes global warming. So do farts. You can still get it mail order, though. You have to find some place where their brains aren't addled yet.

Bob,
Please refrain from this kind of stupid political commentary in boat building threads. Comparing environmental regulations to the mass murder of millions of people is insulting in so many ways that it would not even be appropriate in the bilge.
It makes one wonder whether you listen to too much talk radio or inhaled too much organic solvents,
Johannes

[Lew Barrett]

The practice of tinting the primer with some of the topcoat is called (alternately) applying a "split coat" or "half coat" and is a good trick to have.
As Bob says, we have discussed roll and tip versus brush before, and the idea that it's (R&T) for sissies isn't something you don't hear much from professional painters I have met. Whatever works for you is an appropriate technology in this game. Some products will be recommended for roll and tip by the manufacturer, some manufacturers are mute on the subject.
Some boats suggest just the brush; small lapstrake boats not a good place for me to practice R&T, whereas bigger carvel planked boats will make the technique shine. If anyone can explain to me why one approach is technically better than the other, I'd be all ears.

[Cogeniac]

Check out this guy painting using roll and tip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3UCEbGZmz0

That's pretty cool. I would have thought he would do the up-down strokes first and finished with the horizontal ones.

[Garret]

I guess I'm a sissy. Heck, prolly even a pantywaist!

I'm of moderate skill, but with rolling & tipping I get a gloss finish with Brightsides to where I've been asked if it's sprayed. I can see it isn't - but I take that comment as a compliment.

As was said above, prep is 99% & prep includes eliminating as much dust as possible.

ETA - I don't do anywhere near as large an area at one time as the narrowboat man. I go roughly 5' high x 3' wide. He is mighty good though.

[Lew Barrett]

Check out this guy painting using roll and tip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3UCEbGZmz0

Sissy!

That's pretty cool. I would have thought he would do the up-down strokes first and finished with the horizontal ones.

Ends on the upstroke because (I'd speculate) he thinks it's the best way to catch curtains and drips. Doing it in plaid can be hard outdoors; you get less brushing time if the wind is blowing, and a lot less in full sun. He really works the paint; I suspect there is some Penetrol in his mix, or that is some fine paint.

[johnw]

tip & roll been very good to me. And I was taught to do it vertical.

[Reynard38]

I rolled and tipped Kirby's cut with a bit of Penatrol (my apologies to the millions I murdered) and got a nice finish. It wasnt an "automotive" gloss, but I agree that wouldn't look appropriate on a lapstrake boat.
The finish seems to be holding up very well. It's a lot tougher than I first thought.

[will tracey]

my experience is that finishing with vertical brush strokes lets gravity help with the flow out and produces a finer finish. horizontal strokes don't seem to dissipate as thoroughly. penetrol is key.

[Jay Greer]

It should be pointed out that:

1. #10 and #11 are proprietary thinners for Z-spar paint. Use the appropriate thinner for your paint.
2. The system outlined above is perfectly appropriate for the user that is describing it above. There are other methods.

Some of the yards in Seattle are using Fine Paints of Europe paints and varnish. The results have been excellent...little short of amazing. Very easy handling and fast building.

Interlux has taken over Zspar. They still supply numbered thinners #8 for spray or winter work #10 for general work #11 for hot days or retarded drying time.
If these are not available, my old standby for oil based enamel and varnish is turpentine for smooth flow and retarded dry time.
Jay

[Bob Cleek]

... Comparing environmental regulations to the mass murder of millions of people is insulting in so many ways...

Did I do that?

Fascism ( /ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a radical authoritarian nationalist political ideology. ...To achieve its goals, the fascist state purges forces, ideas, people, and systems deemed to be the cause of decadence and degeneration.

This is the internet, Pal, the last free bastion of political incorrectness. I call 'em like I see 'em and I think outlawing paint thinner in the name of global warming is stupid and people who push their own ideological agendas on others are fascist.

Nobody said they killed anybody, so don't get your knickers all in a knot.

[pcford]

my experience is that finishing with vertical brush strokes lets gravity help with the flow out and produces a finer finish. horizontal strokes don't seem to dissipate as thoroughly. penetrol is key.

I find the opposite to be true...I can't recall a professional painter ever finishing with vertical stokes. Paint flows out more nicely with horizontal strokes.

[Lew Barrett]

I find the opposite to be true...I can't recall a professional painter ever finishing with vertical stokes. Paint flows out more nicely with horizontal strokes.

I could name you a few, Pat. Paint has no grain.

[David G]

I find all such picayune discussions cease once one finds a reliable source of Short-Haired cats.

[pcford]

I could name you a few, Pat. Paint has no grain.

Grain is not significant in this case; gravity is.

[Lew Barrett]

Works just as well brushing vertically. Maybe even easier for neophytes. This is a bush we've danced around before.

[pcford]

Interlux has taken over Zspar. They still supply numbered thinners #8 for spray or winter work #10 for general work #11 for hot days or retarded drying time.
If these are not available, my old standby for oil based enamel and varnish is turpentine for smooth flow and retarded dry time.
Jay

Actually, Jay, Petitt bought Z-Spar, not International. I have not much experience with Z-Spar; it is perhaps my least favorite marine paint. I would never choose it myself.

Furthermore, I think it is appropriate to not recommend switching paint solvents willy-nilly in a forum which is used mostly by amateurs. You know what works and what does not. Others may not.

Again, I recommend that folks look into Fine Paints of Europe paints and varnish.
http://www.finepaintsofeurope.com/st...oduct=39#video

1. Astounding coverage...any color over any color in two coats: Guaranteed. 50% more coverage than domestic paints.
2. Syrene got one coat of this paint at Jensen's and she looks great. Probably another coat in the fall.
3. Very easy handling. "Put your worst painter on it!"
4. Thins with Mineral Spirits...their brand only.

p-dawg says check it out.

[Garret]

How's the finish on the Fine Paints of Eirope? I know, fine.... Seriously though - is it gloss like Brightsides? Almost gloss like Kirby? Something else?

Thanks

ETA: I guess I oughta just go look - they're 70 miles from me.....

[pcford]

How's the finish on the Fine Paints of Eirope? I know, fine.... Seriously though - is it gloss like Brightsides? Almost gloss like Kirby? Something else?

Thanks

ETA: I guess I oughta just go look - they're 70 miles from me.....

Never used Kirby's. As far as I know, Kirby's is used by a few dozen guys on the East Coast. Have never seen it used around here.

There are two varieties: gloss and satin...it says that in the link I furnished. The gloss version, which we used is quite glossy. Not familiar with the satin version.

[David G]

The satin version is fairly matte, the two examples I've seen. The colors are so saturated, though, that it looks a bit like fine velvet. Impressive stuff, with impressive pricing. I'm kinda looking for an excuse to try it out myself.

[pcford]

The satin version is fairly matte, the two examples I've seen. The colors are so saturated, though, that it looks a bit like fine velvet. Impressive stuff, with impressive pricing. I'm kinda looking for an excuse to try it out myself.

Ya got that right about the price.
We paid $128 for a "euro gallon." About 2.5 liters. (There is no discount around here.) However, it's cheap when you consider rapid build and ease of application.

But it's sure to give the vapors to those that freak over paying more than $5 a quart for anything.

[Lew Barrett]

How's the finish on the Fine Paints of Eirope? I know, fine.... Seriously though - is it gloss like Brightsides? Almost gloss like Kirby? Something else?
.

It has a deep luster (the gloss), and it has a more pearlescent, somewhat deeper appearance (in white) than either Easypoxy or Brightsides but is more like them than not. It holds gloss very well. Distribution in the US is a problem; it has changed hands a couple of times in the last several years. Maybe they will settle down now. Good paint, goes on well, covers fast, flows out with minimal fuss, nice colors. The Dutch seem to be good at this sort of thing. It is pricey but I agree with Pat here; given the cost of labor, buying a gallon or two of paint for the average boat really is the least of the expenses involved.

[pipefitter]

Depends on the exposure of the surface with regards to the eye which direction the brush grain goes on smooth surfaces. With trim, or on a boat or substrate that is obviously wood, following the grain, or the direction the grain should follow is proper. In the event of error, or a finish that leaves a directional texture, it will not be as wrong, or wrong at all when following that rule.

Secondly, with smooth, unbroken surfaces, it's a lot like professionally mowing a lawn. It is best to mow in complete rows parallel with the most traveled street or sidewalk, for not seeing the wheel marks from the mower looking across them, rather than down them. Overall, a neater appearance. Whatever minor brush texture that may remain, will be even harder to see.

In other words, whichever direction hides the best for your particular exposure, whether it be the way the light generally hits it or the eye sees it is the one you should use. In some cases, diagonal brush strokes will become the most invisible, say on compound or convex shapes, perhaps, and if it matters that much.

Curtains or sags should not have anything to do with it. It's just something you shouldn't have, and if it matters that much, you learn at the end of a sanding block and an additional coat to be more careful, and is just the price you may have to pay for not being a pro.

[Nicholas Scheuer]

I see someone mentioned Penetrol. I find that it enables enamels to flow out smoother.

[AndrewT]

OP hasn't disappeared - just been following along with the back-and-forth here. For what it's worth, I am painting what my son calls "fire-engine red" over several coats of white primer. I am painting indoors, not in direct sunlight, and I don't paint until the end of the day when I quit working on the boat. I give the dust in the building time to (mostly) settle, and I turn off all the fans and close all but one door so I don't have a breeze blowing through the building. I am not nearly as fastidious about dealing with dust as many of you seem to be; I brush off the hull first with a bench brush, then I blow off the hull with compressed air, and finally I use a tack cloth to wipe down the area to be painted.

I have put three coats of the red enamel on now, and it looks pretty good. I think long, slow, smooth passes with the foam roller are key. There are still a couple of holidays here and there, but I think one more coat will probably suffice. I've been hitting the painted areas with 220-grit paper on a R.O. sander for the first few coats, and I'm starting to think this might be part of my problem. I think even at 220, the mechanical sanding is taking off too much material (and I'm moving that sucker along pretty fast, not loitering in any one place). Before my next pass, I'm just going to hit the obvious spots with a 320-grit sanding sponge and then roll on another coat. I suspect that will give me the finish I'm looking for.

Appreciate all the tips and advice here.

[Garret]

Never used Kirby's. As far as I know, Kirby's is used by a few dozen guys on the East Coast. Have never seen it used around here.

There are two varieties: gloss and satin...it says that in the link I furnished. The gloss version, which we used is quite glossy. Not familiar with the satin version.

Thanks!

[Jay Greer]

Yes, it is Petit that took over Zspar. Interlux produces a favorite remover we use that is produced by another company. Sometimes it is hard to keep track of who is doing what in these days of constant EPA mandates. Incidently, I have never seen a pro painter over work an area so needlessly as the guy doing that tip and roll job! Any of my guys can produce a job in half his time using only a brush. When we do a topside job on a wooden boat the looky loos often ask if the boat is made of fiberglass.
Jay