Catholic Church plans to Say Mass in public Schools

[Bob Cleek]

It seems to me that the issue you are missing is the voluntary nature of their services. They only provide services to people who seek them out; this implies, rather strongly that these services are in demand and viewed as favorable by the people who receive them.

The same is true of pimps and drug dealers, whose market base is also in large measure the poor and minorities. Their services are similarly "in demand and viewed as favorable by the people who receive them."

I'll grant you that "zip code" demographics are susceptible to error. Wealthy and poor neighborhoods obviously exist side by side in the same zip code, and so on. Your analysis is quite convincing. My concerns aren't based solely upon whether or not PP intentionally locates clinics in poor neighborhoods, but rather upon the disproportionate negative effects of PP's services upon the poor and minority communities. In actuality, we don't have to argue about where PP puts its abortion clinics at all because PP's own statistical data confirms that regardless of where their clinics are located, they are providing abortions to minority women in hugely disproportionate ratios. The results of any endeavor cannot be judged by their motivating intentions, but by their ultimate consequences.

Blacks comprise 12.6% of the US population; Hispanics 16.3%. (US Census data.) Non-Hispanic Black women receive 30% of abortions, Hispanic women 25% and women of other minority groups 9%. These are PP"s own figures. (Jones RK, Finer LB and Singh S, Characteristics of U.S. Abortion Patients, 2008, New York: Guttmacher Institute, 2010.) (The Guttmacher Institute in 1968 was founded as the "Center for Family Planning Program Development", a semi-autonomous division of The Planned Parenthood Federation of America. The Center was renamed in memory of Alan Frank Guttmacher, an Ob/Gyn and former president of Planned Parenthood.)

Ninety-eight percent of Planned Parenthood’s services to pregnant women (abortion, adoption and prenatal care) are abortion (according to its 2009 report: 332,278 abortions, 7,021 prenatal care clients, and 977 adoption
referrals to other agencies.)Planned Parenthood acknowledges that it provided primary care only to about 19,700 of its 3 million unduplicated clients. (Planned Parenthood Federation of America, Planned Parenthood Services (Feb.2011), p. 2 (reporting on 2009 figures.) Planned Parenthood received 363.2 million dollars of government grants and contracts in Fiscal Year 2008-09 and performed 332,278 abortions in the year ending June, 2009, 27% of all abortions in the U.S. (Planned Parenthood Federation of America, Inc. Annual Report 2008-09, p. 29, and 2008 Income Tax Returns; See Planned Parenthood Federation of America, Planned Parenthood Services, p. 2, supra)

Abortion kills more black people than the seven leading causes of death combined (heart disease, cancer, strokes, accidents, diabetes, homicide, and chronic lower respiratory diseases) according to CDC data. (National Center for Health Statistics, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 2008.) Estimates are that since the Roe v. Wade decision, nearly 17 million black prgnancies have been aborted, reducing the potential black population by almost one third. Abortion and its largest provider in the US have become a serious concern in the Black community. Dr. Alveda King, the niece of Dr. Martin Luther King, said: “Abortion is a racist, genocidal act. Children are the future. When you destroy your children, you destroy hope.”

Looking at Planned Parenthood's own figures, I find it hard to argue with her.

[ljb5]

Bob, before we get into the analysis of the new stats you just posted, why don't we take a moment to analyze that last load of hogwash you dumped here?

You aren't seriously going to stand by that, are you?

How could you possibly be taken in by that nonsense?

Aren't you ashamed of being taken for a fool?

Don't you think it would be appropriate for you to at least acknowledge the problems with the study? Do you have any concept of integrity?

You know I'm right, (of course). If you can't accept and admit that, you cannot legitimately engage in discussion.

[jack grebe]

Does anyone besides me notice that certain outspoken
bilge rats are NOT part of this discussion?????

[jack grebe]

The same is true of pimps and drug dealers

Are you lumping them together??




just askin

[Bob Cleek]

Are you lumping them together??




just askin

No, altlhough sometimes you'll find a pimp who's also a drug dealer and vice versa.

[jack grebe]

No, altlhough sometimes you'll find a pimp who's also a drug dealer and vice versa.

Nice try............I meant Planned Parenthood / pimps/ and drug dealers

[SamSam]

Abortions comprise only 3% of the services PP performs.

73% of abortions are performed somewhere other than PP. Would that be in the rich, white zipcodes, where people can afford them or their insurance covers them?

Pimps, drug dealers, doctors and lawyers all provide voluntary services.

The same is true of pimps and drug dealers, whose market base is also in large measure the poor and minorities.

Is this true or is it a stereotype? Who gets arrested in prostitution stings? Drugs pervade society. People everywhere smoke dope, do lines, drink alcohol, abuse prescriptions, smoke cigarettes.

[Keith Wilson]

The same is true of pimps and drug dealers, whose market base is also in large measure the poor and minorities.

Yes, and your point is? The same is true of Catholic Charities, and Habitat for Humanity.

Bob, you are certainly intelligent enough to realize the utter raving illogic of the leap from 'African-American women have abortions at a higher rate than the general population' to 'Planned Parenthood is practicing eugenics'. You might consider two factors: economics, and religion. More black women are poor. Fewer black women are members of denominations that oppose abortion. You think that might have something to do with it?

[jack grebe]

Fewer black women are members of denominations that oppose abortion. You think that might have something to do with it?

Link??????????

[Tom Montgomery]

This eugenics brouhaha is silly. There is really no need to attach nefarious motives to abortion providers. Having an abortion is a strictly voluntary decision.

The fact of the matter is that women may legally choose to have a first trimester abortion for any reason whatsoever. And women are under no obligation to reveal their reasons for making that choice.

Bob Cleek, Sam F, and many others object to the legality of abortion under any circumstance.

[Keith Wilson]

Look at the percentages of Catholics.

[ljb5]

Bob Cleek, Sam F, and many others object to the legality of abortion under any circumstance.

Although I don't share his views, I can understand Bob's objection to abortion on religious or moral grounds.

But I just can't tolerate lying, or using ridiculously misleading, illogical and deceptive "statistics."

What type of "morality" could possibly be served by overt, unashamed lying? That's not morality at all.

[Keith Wilson]

This is a very curious thing, and one I've seen over and over again. Those who object to abortion obviously think Planned Parenthood does bad things. According to their view of the world, Planned Parenthood murders hundreds of thousands of babies, fer chrissake, and it would be hard to get any worse than that. Yet these people also seem to have a need to believe all sorts of highly implausible additional bad stuff about PP - they support racist eugenics, they help pimps, they encourage sex-selection abortions, etc., etc., and otherwise intelligent people seem to suspend all their critical faculties when someone in the anti-abortion movement comes up with another totally off-the-wall claim. Planned Parenthood volunteers feast on human flesh at their annual awards banquet! Planned Parenthood finances abortion clinics by selling heroin to cute eight-year old kids!! Planned Parenthood sends out paid squads of highly-trained black rapists to impregnate women so they can do more abortions!!

Perhaps the idea is to find, or invent, something Planned Parenthood does that even those who don't object to abortion will find offensive; I don't know. It's silly at best, and at worst completely dishonorable spreading of lies. Look guys, Planned Parenthood is exactly what it appears to be. They provide birth control, sex education, various sorts of women's reproductive health care - and they do abortions. That's a fairly small fraction of what they do, but it's still a lot of abortions. If you think that abortion is equivalent to murdering a baby, than you think they do great evil. There's no need to make ridiculous stuff up to make them seem worse.

[Tom Montgomery]

Perhaps the idea is to find, or invent, something Planned Parenthood does that even those who don't object to abortion will find offensive....

That is how it appears to me. Those who oppose abortion in all circumstances on religious/moral grounds are simply failing to persuade a majority of Americans. And so they are grasping for an argument that will swing majority opinion to their side.

[Bob Cleek]

Look guys, Planned Parenthood is exactly what it appears to be. They provide birth control, sex education, various sorts of women's reproductive health care - and they do abortions. That's a fairly small fraction of what they do, but it's still a lot of abortions.

Keith, I got this data from PP's own annual reports. This is the latest data that's been published, as far as I know. I didn't make this stuff up:

Ninety-eight percent of Planned Parenthood’s services to pregnant women (abortion, adoption and prenatal care) are abortions (according to its 2009 report: 332,278 abortions, 7,021 prenatal care clients, and 977 adoption
referrals to other agencies.)Planned Parenthood acknowledges that it provided primary care only to about 19,700 of its 3 million unduplicated clients. (Planned Parenthood Federation of America, Planned Parenthood Services (Feb.2011), p. 2 (reporting on 2009 figures.) Planned Parenthood received 363.2 million dollars of government grants and contracts in Fiscal Year 2008-09 and performed 332,278 abortions in the year ending June, 2009, 27% of all abortions in the U.S. (Planned Parenthood Federation of America, Inc. Annual Report 2008-09, p. 29, and 2008 Income Tax Returns; See Planned Parenthood Federation of America, Planned Parenthood Services, p. 2, supra)

Keith, again, In 2009, "Ninety-eight percent of Planned Parenthood’s services to pregnant women are abortions." They were given $363,200,000 in our tax dollars (yea, that's 363.2 MILLION bucks) in 2009. PP has a capital net worth in excess of a BILLION dollars.

Abortion isn't "a small fraction of what they do," it's 98% of what they do and that percentage figure has been rising steadily over the last few years. In 2009, PP performed 27 percent, more than a quarter, of all the abortions in the US.

PP funds a very slick PR campaign. It has for years. Yes, they do provide other family planning and women's health servcies, but "that's a fairly small fraction of what they do."

I'm not going to try to argue that I have any data that PROVES that PP is "racist" or is consciously motivated by a egenics agenda. There's lots and lots of stuff on line that argues that they do. I'm not going to base my conclusions on the "sting" operations of pro-lifers who have video taped PP staff condoning abortions for the purpose of avoiding giving birth to a girl baby or to their taking money from undercover "donors" who tell them they want the money used to prevent the birth of Black children. All I'm saying is that PP is an abortion industry that makes hundreds of millions of dollars a year, including a lot of our tax money for the purpose of making it cheap and convenient for people, 332,278 in 2009, to be exact, to terminate their pregnancies. An inordinatly disproportionate number of those were the pregnancies of persons of color.

In a civilized Western society, I find those facts abominable. I don't care what PP's intentions may be. I take real issue with what they do, not with what their fundraising propaganda says. I am sure many have "good intentions" and believe that the impact PP has on minority communities is "doing good for others." I am sure they are greatly offended when called eugenicists and racists or when they are accused of goverment funded genocide. But the effect it is having is what it is.

Imagine that an unmarried seventeen year old American coed with no employment history whatsoever got knocked up by a twenty-five year old alcoholic foreign exchange student who isn't particularly interested in making any long term commitment to her whatsoever...



I guess the apple doesn't fall far from the tree...

[ljb5]

I'm not going to try to argue that I have any data that PROVES that PP is "racist" or is consciously motivated by a egenics agenda. ..

For a guy who isn't going to argue that PP is racist or motivated by eugenics, you sure argue that a lot.

Research proves that even today, Planned Parenthood overwhelmingly, if not exclusively, directs its service efforts to Black and Hispanic communities. [url]http://www.lifenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/LifeDynamicsRacialReport.pdf[/url...

...Racisim and classism is what Planned Parenthood is all about today, just as it was when Sanger founded it.

My beef with PP doesn't have anything to do with birth control. It has to do with their racist eugenic agenda, which they have had since their founding and which, now, they conceal with "spin."

Their efforts are directed to Black and Hispanic women. Not "the poor" in general. Black and Hispanic poor.

Read the statistics.

I'm saying PP has a eugenic agenda today because of what they say and what they do. Look at the statistics.

I'm not going to try to argue that I have any data that PROVES that PP is "racist" or is consciously motivated by a egenics agenda.

Do you not know what you just wrote?

[Keith Wilson]

Bob, really, you're smarter than that. The vast majority of Planned Parenthood's services are to women who are not pregnant. Only about 3% of what they do is abortions. Pregnant women who want to have a baby don't go to Planned Parenthod; there are hospitals and obstetricians everywhere who handle that.

"There's lots and lots of stuff on line that argues" for every idea imaginable, true, false, or completely insane. You object to abortions. That's OK, although I disagree. But repeating lies is wrong, even in a cause you believe to be good. The claim that Planned Parenthood deliberately tries to reduce the numbers of non-white people by selectively encouraging abortions is a scurrilous lie.

[Bob Cleek]

That is how it appears to me. Those who oppose abortion in all circumstances on religious/moral grounds are simply failing to persuade a majority of Americans. And so they are grasping for an argument that will swing majority opinion to their side.

Well, that's not how it appears to the Gallup Poll! http://www.gallup.com/poll/118399/mo...irst-time.aspx

Nor to the Pew Research Center: http://www.people-press.org/2009/10/...bortion-slips/

Knock yourself out: http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm

I wouldn't bet on the pro-choice horse for a long ride.

[SamSam]

BS in CAPITAL LETTERS!

Abortion isn't "a small fraction of what they do," it's 98% of what they do and that percentage figure has been rising steadily over the last few years. In 2009, PP performed 27 percent, more than a quarter, of all the abortions in the US.

Abortion is 3% of what they do, you posted it yourself in an earlier post! It might be 98% of what they do for pregnant women, but it's only 3% of what they do for all women and men. They just don't offer a lot of services for pregnant women other than abortion, that's what other people do. And those other people also perform almost 3 times the amount of abortions than PP does.

[ljb5]

Well, that's not how it appears to the Gallup Poll!

A lot of people are persuaded by misinformation.

Indeed, that's why there is a misinformation industry. People get paid to make up lies for you to believe and spread. You're just a pawn in their game of misinformation.... a willing pawn, but a rube.

If you need to lie to persuade people, you're not really winning. You're just making more losers.

[Bob Cleek]

Bob, really, you're smarter than that. The vast majority of Planned Parenthood's services are to women who are not pregnant. Only about 3% of what they do is abortions. Pregnant women who want to have a baby don't go to Planned Parenthod; there are hospitals and obstetricians everywhere who handle that.

"There's lots and lots of stuff on line that argues" for every idea imaginable, true, false, or completely insane. You object to abortions. That's OK, although I disagree. But repeating lies is wrong, even in a cause you believe to be good. The claim that Planned Parenthood deliberately tries to reduce the numbers of non-white people by selectively encouraging abortions is a scurrilous lie.

You're right, Keith. I was talking statistically about PP's services to pregnant women. I am aware that they provide a lot of other services, or say they do. The statistics I find troubling aren't the number of condoms or birth control pills they hand out, but the number of abortions PP provides... 27% of the total, and growing in recent years.

I looked up PP's' OWN statistical reports on services provided. The latest data I found previously was 2009. THEY said, and I quoted that 98% of the services they provided to PREGNANT women were abortions. That means that of all the pregnant women who went to PP for services, only three percent ended up with services relating to prenatal care and adoptions. That means 98% of the pregnant women who turned to PP for assistance ended up with abortions. 76% of their clients are poor people (again, their fiigures, not mine). I can't reconcile that fact with any conclusion other than that PP promotes abortion over carrying a child to term, intentionally or otherwise. (I don't care about their motives, only the consequences of their actions.) To me, that translates to a disproportionate effect on the birth rate of the poor and people of color (again, see PP's own ethinic breakdowns cited before.) Maybe PP has purged itself of all taint of Sanger's eugenics, but you sure can't see that from PP's effect on ethnic minorities and the poor to this day.

I have found a later report by PP. http://www.plannedparenthood.org/fil...P_Services.pdf

There, PP reports that only 3% of their OVERALL services were the 329,445 abortions performed in 2010.

"The core of Planned Parenthood affiliate medical
service is contraception and accompanying health
care, education, and information. In 2010, we
provided 11 million medical services for nearly three
million people, and helped to prevent approximately
584,000 unintended pregnancies. Seventy-six percent
of our clients have incomes at or below 150 percent
of the federal poverty level." http://www.plannedparenthood.org/fil...P_Services.pdf

Do the math: 584,000 unintended pregnancies and 329,445 abortions in 2010. Seventy-six percent of clients below 150 percent of the federal policy level. That's 694,218 poor women's pregnancies that were prevented or terminated by Planned Parenthood. The rate of US multiple births is 32.2 per 1,000, so I come up with 716,572 fewer poor people born in 2010 thanks to PP. If the result does not mirror the aims of eugenicists, who's doing who a favor, anyway?

Think about it. Three million patients and nearly four hundred million dollars in tax money and they "prevented approximately 584,000 unintended pregnancies." I have no idea how they came up with that figure, but do you think we're getting our tax money's worth at that rate? (Actually, they most likely figured out how many pregnancies were prevented by analysis of the decline of birth statistics for their client population, 76% of which are poor.)

If 98% of the pregnant women that turn to PP end up with abortions, just exactly how much of our tax dollars are going to help pregnant women who want to have their babies and just need prenatal care?

[Keith Wilson]

Bob, what's your point? Many women who go to Planned Parenthood go specifically to avoid becoming pregnant. If a woman who's already pregnant goes to Planned Parenthood, she probably wants an abortion. If she wants to have the baby she goes elsewhere. So? You think abortions are bad. Yes, we knew that already.

I think Planned Parenthood generally does excellent work and is well worth the money. I send them some money of my own from time to time. Maybe I should send them some more; these threads usually inspire me in that direction.

[Bob Cleek]

The difference between the number of abortions and the number of unintended pregnancies is most likely the number of "morning after" pills they distributed.

Interesting observation which rings true. If so, PP is conveniently defining abortion to make it appear they do fewer than they do. Mediically, anything that terminates a pregnancy, be it knife or pill, or a natural course of events, is an abortion.

I don't think you are getting value for your money. NOt for the reasons that you think but if a lot more money was spent on real sex education in schools then the US wouldn't have the ridiculous unwanted pregnancy issues that it has. That's where you get value for money and then in a strong and far reaching birth control program. With those in place the number of unintended pregnancies drops.

I agree completely.

But all of that is anathema to proponents of the ridiculous views that trap women , especially poor women, in a cycle of unwanted pregnancy and poverty. That is racist, totally racist given the poverty rates among the ethnic minorities in the US.
But the right wing "pro-life" fanatics don't see their hypocrisy in that. Just as they don't see the hypocrisy in the Catholic Church ever commenting about shielding rapists and abusers!

Time to take religious bigotry out of women's health issues. it's not your business!

Again I agree completely. The "Religious Right" is rarely religious or right. I'm not addressing faith-based concerns here. I'm concerned about a federally funded private agency (whose founder, at least, strongly advocated eugenics) having a significant impact on the birth rate of poor and minority people disproportionate to that of the general population.

[Bob Cleek]

Bob, what's your point? Many women who go to Planned Parenthood go specifically to avoid becoming pregnant. If a woman who's already pregnant goes to Planned Parenthood, she probably wants an abortion. If she wants to have the baby she goes elsewhere. So? You think abortions are bad. Yes, we knew that already.

I think everybody thinks abortions are bad. Nobody's having them unless they feel they have to. I just don't think the government should be susbsizing an NGO that performs 27% of the total done.

I think Planned Parenthood generally does excellent work and is well worth the money. I send them some money of my own from time to time. Maybe I should send them some more; these threads usually inspire me in that direction.

I'd rather see PP funded with your donations than my tax dollars, but in the grand scheme of things, the goverment pisses away a lot more of my taxes on other useless expenditures than they do on PP. Might I suggest, however, that you would find a greater satisfaction in donating your spare change to some agency that helps the living than to one that thinks the solution is preventing them from being born.

[ChaseKenyon]

So... do you think that White women don't use birth control.... or do you suppose maybe they have access through different channels?

Maybe you should ask your sister or your daughter or some other white woman before you answer. You might be surprised.

In all probability, all the women you know use birth control and few, if any discussed it with you.

It's funny how many men get squeamish in the "feminine products" aisle of the supermarket --- yet feel so strongly about expressing their opinions on birth control. I think you need to get used to the idea that there's a whole world of women's health issues that is largely hidden from you. You don't know who is on birth control, who has had abortions, where White women go for birth control, etc.

Yeah

+42

[ChaseKenyon]

Maybe you shouldn't have started out with a collection of quotes from Sanger 95 years ago. That kinda created the appearance that you were focusing on Sanger's statements.

I looked at the so-called "statistics" you presented from that propaganda piece.

There are some obvious problems with it: (1) No effort is made to account for the economics of the various zip codes they study. They present the (approximate) ethnic breakdown of the zip code, but without economic information, it is impossible to tell if the clinics are placed there for racial reasons or economic reasons. In economics, it is standard practice to present multiple factors.

(2) There is no consideration of other sources of birth control. As we already discussed, White women do have access to birth control. Perhaps Planned Parenthood places their clinics in minority communities not to target minorities, but rather to bring the availability of services up to (or closer to) what is available to White women. Without even a consideration of this factor, the analysis is garbage.

(3) There's an even more basic problem with the statistics. In any random sampling, you would expect about about half the samples to be above average for one statistic. (This should be self-evident from the definition of "average.") If you're looking at two independent parameters simultaneously (% African American AND % Hispanic), the likelihood that one or the other is above average is nearer to 75%. So when they say, "Texas which has 94 Zip codes with at least one population control facility. Of those, only 22 are not disproportionately black and/or Hispanic".... they're pretty much saying that's exactly what you would expect from random (not racially targeted) selection.

Of course, I cannot say for certain that these two parameters are independent variables..... but I know for damn sure the authors of this "study" made no attempt to even consider that issue.


Also... .since you encouraged me to look at the statistics, I did. Earlier, you suggested that Planned Parenthood directs their services almost exclusively to minorities communities. Even by the statistics you presented, that is clearly not true.

Looking at Colorado, for example, 17 of the 23 clinics are located in zip codes where the percent of minorities is under (and in some cases way under) the state average.

That proves your claim false.

You going to give up now, or keep fighting? You will never, ever, be better at this than I am. And the longer you rely on flimsy propaganda pieces for your information, the worse you will get.

+42 to the tenth power

ElJay please do not get banned again. Not to put any of the extremely well educated and erudite members in a bad light, but I feel like we "get " each other. For the first time on any of my forums, you are the only one I log into and then search for your latest posts.

Out of all the forum members, and in spite of the rocky start we had together you are the top of the pile of forumites that Iwould like to have regular land or web voice chat interface with. I keep saying, I am not into arguments that have to be won. I am into discussions of topics so that we all can upgrade the group knowledge and or zeitgeist.

[ChaseKenyon]

Sorry won't work. 92% of Down's syndrome babies are aborted in the US. If that isn't Eugenics, what is?



Absolutely! And you just demolished your argument since people often chose to abort less-than-perfect babies.



Spreading lies is wrong & I won't spread any. Also wrong is aborting Down's syndrome babies and so is genderecide



There it is plain as the nose on your face... Once again the fine young folk at LiveAction have caught Planned Parenthood in the act.

So tell me Keith, given PP's proven collaboration with sex trafficking & underage prostitution, shielding rapists, and now gendercide, what else is it going to take to convince you?

come on here.

That film has less proof of being a legitimate coverage of a PP clinic than the average video production of a 6 th grade project. At that age the vids my son did are more believable than this video. Even his no budget GhostBusters III was more believable.

given PP's proven collaboration with sex trafficking & underage prostitution, shielding rapists, and now gendercide

where is the proof? Certainly not from anything this organization has on their website. There is nothing on their website or the links that even a first year just starting classes lawyer would use as a reference. I doubt that anyone that can even read the LSATs would be sucked in by this obviously half baked video or even the web site.

I can not seriously believe that you have been sucked in by this obviously fake (investigative) video.

Did you check the source?

Did you notice there are not even any shots of a real PP clinic?

No shots that are recognizable of any PP employees?

figgy puding, you can,t really be taken in that easily.




just google the org.

Planned Parenthood does not perform an abortion every 96 seconds.

If you go to PPs clinic locator for my zip code it returns 10 clinics.

Only 4 offer abortion services.

The other 6 only have referrals.

This is typical of PP. less than half offer abortions.


if you do the math......
60 sec per minute X 60 minutes per hour = 3600 sec per hour.

and 8 hours a day = 28800

times half of the clinics at 400 = 11520000 potential seconds country wide.

if we divide that by liveaction's every 96 seconds

we get 11520000 / 96 = 120000 claimed abortions per 8 hour day nation wide .

So if we divide the 120000 ABD by the 400 clinics

we get 120000 / 400 = 300 abortions per abortion giving clinic per 8 hour day. At one every 96 seconds

Now we have to consider that the time for such procedure is in the working 8 hr day.

so.... the 300 abortions per day have to occur in only 8 hours of work time for each clinic.

300 / 8 = 37.5 abortions per hour.

I doubt that there is any hospital or clinic in the whole world that can or does 37.5 abortions per hour.

I've been up for 32 hours so someone check the math here.

In any case live action's posts and claims all are at this ludicrously far fetched level. cuuugh cuuugh (furball)!

[Keith Wilson]

. . . whose founder, at least, strongly advocated eugenics . . .

Bob, will you please give it a rest? Most of the founders of the United States supported slavery. Both slavery in 1789 and eugenics in 1920 were mainstream political positions, whatever we think of them now. Shouting back across the years to tell our ancestors the errors of their ways is the most futile endeavor in which a man can engage.

Planned Parenthood does not advocate eugenics, and bringing it up over and over again when there's no credible evidence to support the charge is not honorable.

I think everybody thinks abortions are bad. Nobody's having them unless they feel they have to.

An abortion, at best, is the least bad alternative. No one in their right mind would argue that every woman should have several because they're so great. But prohibiting them by law would be wrong. Working so that they're mostly unnecessary is a very good idea. This is most of what Planned Parenthood does.

I just don't think the government should be susbsizing an NGO that performs 27% of the total done.

But Bob, most of what Planned Parenthood does is sex ed and birth control - precisely what reduces the need for abortions, as you make very clear in #75. And it does indeed 'help the living'; unless you think providing young women with the means to control their own fertility is not help. Best ask them.

But as I've said, objecting to legal abortion is perfectly legitimate, although I disagree. Objecting to tax funding of Planned Parenthood is perfectly legitimate, although I disagree. But spreading lies about "collaboration with sex trafficking & underage prostitution, shielding rapists, and now gendercide" is just wrong.

[John Smith]

Could we not just as accurately and more charitably say that Planned Parenthood directs its sevices largely at poor neighborhoods? Why is that nefarious?

I agree that Margaret Sanger held some ugly opinions and attitudes. So did Henry Ford. I'll bet his mug has appeared on a postage stamp.

I"m not sure why it is anyone's business what services Planned Parenthood renders unto a client/patient other than those actually involved.

As to abortion, not all preganancies are wanted. Once one accepts that as fact, then the fact is the woman has three options, and none of them are necessarily good options, but they are the only three she has.

As to contraception, whatever medication a doctor prescribes for a patient is their business, not mine.

[John Smith]

Phillip Allen: ljb5 did not say VW had no connection to Hitler.

ljb5 posted, "The modern Planned Parenthood has no more relation to her [Sanger] than Volkswagen has to Hitler." That has a different meaning.

If you want to mix it up with adults you need to elevate your game.

Or, one might say, as much of a relation as today's Republican Party has to Reagan's Republican Party.