cheap construction methods or Low Cost Boatbuilding

[Bluegill]

I would like to have a new section in the forum with the heading of "Cheap Construction Materials & Method" or "Low Cost Boatbuilding". People are forever recommending fasteners that will last many decades, very expensive, dangerous paint, but I would be happy if a wooden boat lasted 15 years. The expense of the marine plywood, paint, and fasteners is just too much. The high expense of building a wooden boat drives away potential boatbuilders.

[Wayne Jeffers]

There has been much discussion (sometimes heated) of inexpensive construction methods over the years in the regular forums.

I for one am not enthusiastic about creating a multitude of specialized categories. I have enjoyed reading about a number of topics that I probably would not have seen if they were in some obscure forum category where I would seldom visit.

I must admit, however, that I now visit intermittently, and when I do, I usually click on New Posts, since that now excludes the Bilge.

BTW, I've built a couple of boats using cheap methods and the results have been fine. I had no intention of creating an heirloom, and they have held up fine so far, despite some neglect. The oldest is 19+ years old, made from lumber yard plywood.

Wayne

[Gerarddm]

Cheap and inexpensive work for small craft, and not well for larger ones. It is all relative.

[Ian McColgin]

As you get to the larger (over a couple of tons, and especially as you get over ten tons) you can figure that the hull is barely a quarter of the final cost. The other quarters are roughly mechanicals, rigging, and accomodation. This was the big disappointment, near marketing fraud, of the fad for home built ferro cement boats with the theory that building in ferro cost much less. Even if it cost half as much, on the total price of the boat that saved you 12%. BFD.

If you're looking to the larger boat, a proper job on the hull is cost effective. If you want to save beaucoup bucks, keep the systems simple, the accomodation plain, and the varnish non-existant. That's cheaper boatbuilding. Making a bad job of poor materials is plain dumb for anything bigger than a beater day boat.

[DGentry]

I'm obligated to say, of course, that . . . if you want fine looking and great performing boats built of quality materials - but still want them to be inexpensive - you can hardly go wrong with skin-on-frame. They go together in far less time than their all wood cousins, as well, and they are easy to modify, strength wise, for many different conditions.

As pointed out, we're talking smaller, simpler boats, for the most part (with notable exceptions).

[Bob Cleek]

The most expensive part of boatbuilding, amateur or professional, is the LABOR. No need for a forum section to discuss that. Nothing much to discuss. It boils down to what your time is worth. Certainly, the amateur has the luxury of enjoying the work in and of itself. But, either way, the "value added" of your labor has to be considered along with the basic "hourly rate." It doesn't make a lot of sense to save 15 or even 25 percent in materials costs if at the end of the day the finished boat is worth half or a quarter of the resale value of the boat you would have had with the same labor if you'd paid the 15 or 25 percent you "saved" on materials in the first place. That said, if anybody's interested in "less expensive" boatbuilding, they need only look to traditional workboat construction to realize savings of perhaps as much as half the cost of a "yacht finished" boat. Good traditional workboats are excellent performing craft which last remarkably well with relatively minimal maintenance. In many instances, they far outlast a yacht of the same size whcih is often built lighter and with much more expensive materials. There's nothing "cheap" about them. The materials investment is simply more efficiently made. (For example, a hot dipped galvanized boat nail will hold a plank for as long, if not longer, than a silicon bronze screw at a quarter the price and perhaps half to three quarters the installation labor. Both fastener materials will pretty much outlast the wood they fasten, all things being equal, so why pay more?)

I've never known a knowledgeable boat builder, pro or amateur, to build a "cheap boat." They may build less expensive boats, but there's a point where cheap materials simply don't justify the building time involved. I think a lot of people new to the enterprise equate "cheap" wiith "easy." These plywood and epoxied boats may be easier to build for someone starting out, but they aren't inexpensive at all when you compare them to the same design built traditionally after labor and materials costs are factored in. Plywood and epoxy are very expensive materials when compared to tradtional construction methods.

It continues to seem impossible to convince a beginner this is true. Perhaps this may be because the learning curve in traditional construction is so much steeper (or seems so) than with "modern" methods. It may also be because beginners are more familiar with the tools common to working with sheet goods and goopy adhesives than they are with mechanical fastening and sharp hand tools. Dunno, but this is an ongoing bone of contention between enthusiastic newcomers and the old fahrts, and probably always will be.

[DanSkorupka]

For the purposes of this post i am going to assume someone who cannot afford premium materials will be building a small (under 20 some feet) vessel.

I have heard good things (mostly on this forum) about the better grades of doug fir MDO ply. White pine (real white pine as in pinus strobus NOT big box mart "whitewood") is cheaper than white cedar, has better rot resistance than most of the junk farmed SYP on today's market, and is flexible and workable. Many of the edge nailed strip plank boats in new england and the maritimes were made of white pine, mostly unwanted trimmings (sapwood) had for cheap or free from the nearest sawmill, and they lasted ok IF you did not ever neglect them.

Forget about stitch and glue, the epoxy will cost you more than you paid for the wood and if compromised will let water in but not out, leading to dry rot on the trailer.

For boats that will not spend forever in saltwater coated, hard galvanized deck screws are usually adequate and are far cheaper than bronze screws or cut nails.

For smaller boatsthat live on trailers or in fresh water copper toxin bottom paint may not necessarily be needed. My philosophy for them is "oil in, paint out" meaning the outsides get either oil paint or mold retardant exterior acrylic-latex paint and interior wood gets drying oil, usually mixed with turpentine or something like that.

I have talked to exterminators who say oil of wintergreen or clove oil are better at killing bugs than sumithrin gas or ddt and they wont result in the fish kills that pyrethroids do.

Some have suggested going to an auto parts store and finding an older brand of antifreeze with some really dire warnings and using it as a wood preservative by letting it wick into the ends of planks to protect the end grain.

I would recommend not skimping beyond this for the hull, and keeping the scantlings thick especially with the cheaper woods. A bare workboat finish is adequate for most people as long as you are not into conspicuous consumption and a fine finish or lots of unnecessary features are extremely expensive. When you are on the water in a small boat you will be paying attention to the beauty of nature around you, and the fish you are perhaps trying to catch, and mostly ignoring the aesthetic blemishes and simple accommodations of your boat.

[Paul Pless]

Cheap and inexpensive work for small craft, and not well for larger ones. It is all relative.

Have you seen the boats that the Haitians build on the beach by hand with found and recycled materials?

[potomac]

The most expensive part of boatbuilding, amateur or professional, is the LABOR. No need for a forum section to discuss that. Nothing much to discuss. It boils down to what your time is worth. Certainly, the amateur has the luxury of enjoying the work in and of itself. But, either way, the "value added" of your labor has to be considered along with the basic "hourly rate." It doesn't make a lot of sense to save 15 or even 25 percent in materials costs if at the end of the day the finished boat is worth half or a quarter of the resale value of the boat you would have had with the same labor if you'd paid the 15 or 25 percent you "saved" on materials in the first place. That said, if anybody's interested in "less expensive" boatbuilding, they need only look to traditional workboat construction to realize savings of perhaps as much as half the cost of a "yacht finished" boat. Good traditional workboats are excellent performing craft which last remarkably well with relatively minimal maintenance. In many instances, they far outlast a yacht of the same size whcih is often built lighter and with much more expensive materials. There's nothing "cheap" about them. The materials investment is simply more efficiently made. (For example, a hot dipped galvanized boat nail will hold a plank for as long, if not longer, than a silicon bronze screw at a quarter the price and perhaps half to three quarters the installation labor. Both fastener materials will pretty much outlast the wood they fasten, all things being equal, so why pay more?)

I've never known a knowledgeable boat builder, pro or amateur, to build a "cheap boat." They may build less expensive boats, but there's a point where cheap materials simply don't justify the building time involved. I think a lot of people new to the enterprise equate "cheap" wiith "easy." These plywood and epoxied boats may be easier to build for someone starting out, but they aren't inexpensive at all when you compare them to the same design built traditionally after labor and materials costs are factored in. Plywood and epoxy are very expensive materials when compared to tradtional construction methods.

It continues to seem impossible to convince a beginner this is true. Perhaps this may be because the learning curve in traditional construction is so much steeper (or seems so) than with "modern" methods. It may also be because beginners are more familiar with the tools common to working with sheet goods and goopy adhesives than they are with mechanical fastening and sharp hand tools. Dunno, but this is an ongoing bone of contention between enthusiastic newcomers and the old fahrts, and probably always will be.

Bob, this is an interesting observation, and honestly, not one I had previously considered. Two things:

1. I think there's such a mystique with all boatbuilding- it is rife with specialized terminology and tools. There is the inherent threat of the foreign element in which boats operate, and of course, there is a tradition in literature and movies of almost celebrating the danger of the sea. It seems these things coupled with the difficulty of woodworking in general scare a lot of new builders. Certainly it intimidates me. It seems, there is a sort of infrastructure of support for more modern building with books, videos, and designers who produce incredibly in-depth building guides for their designs. Don't you think that's really a part of the reason lots of builders go with ply?

2. Traditional building is WAY more attractive to me as a builder than epoxy/ ply just because of the pleasantness of working with those materials. I'm a bit scared of epoxy and my most profound woodworking reactions have come from dealing with Red Oak ply (not for boatbuilding) and the allergic reaction I had to the dust. Also, I have a devil of a time locating proper ply where I live. But it seems that most if not lots and lots of boatbuilders, especially of smaller craft, are building boats to live on trailers, not on the water and my perception is that traditional boatbuilding doesn't really like this sort of abuse.

I so respect your opinion on these things and would love to hear some suggestions regarding books on traditional boatbuilding for those of us who won't ever be doing an apprenticeship in a proper boatbuilding workshop. I assume the Chapelle book. Who else? Steward, Pardey? Thanks- Aaron

[Boston]

As you get to the larger (over a couple of tons, and especially as you get over ten tons) you can figure that the hull is barely a quarter of the final cost. The other quarters are roughly mechanicals, rigging, and accomodation. This was the big disappointment, near marketing fraud, of the fad for home built ferro cement boats with the theory that building in ferro cost much less. Even if it cost half as much, on the total price of the boat that saved you 12%. BFD.

If you're looking to the larger boat, a proper job on the hull is cost effective. If you want to save beaucoup bucks, keep the systems simple, the accomodation plain, and the varnish non-existant. That's cheaper boatbuilding. Making a bad job of poor materials is plain dumb for anything bigger than a beater day boat.

loved this post Ian, it also inadvertently presents the savings in initial construction costs of power vs sail. the long term costs are also something I've had trouble getting across. But the ferro fad was thankfully short lived.

all in all you hit the nail on the head. Cheap materials makes for a very expensive repair bill down the road.

[pumpkin]

If you want a cheap boat open the classifieds. Most of the time you can buy cheaper than you can build. My redwood strip built canoe cost around a thousand dollars. After it was finished we bought a used fiberglass one for $250 so that we could go out with friends and family.

[Sailor]

I have pictures of some Haitian boats on the beach like you showed there. You got a good one. Others are terrible examples of workmanship. They are certainly beyond dangerous and I would never take one to sea but they do all the time. Crazy. I saw one (bigger mind you) that had red and green light bulbs in household sockets for P+S running lights. Roll on roofing shingles on the cabin top. I spent time in Haiti after the earthquake a couple of years ago and though I admire their ingenuity I can't say I was impressed by their boats. Sloppy fitting parts, and terrible workmanship a lot of the time. Given all that, they are in abject poverty and there really is nothing to build with aside from what they find lying around. I watched them get out deck beams and carlins with a hatchet. Sitting down they pared down one side of the log until there was a flat ish surface and then they cut it to length with an old handsaw and nailed it in with whatever bent recycled nails they had on hand. It's amazing any of them ever return from fishing.

[Tom Painter]

A fella I used to work with (and he is a very fine joiner on customers boats) built a 60' houseboat/power sharpie out of just ordinary spruce 2x4s, PL premium, 3/4 pt plywood, galvanized common nails, bitchathane and housepaint. Not a "seaworthy" craft mind you...but he's lived aboard for many years...cheap rent!

[SamSam]

Here's one From Puerto Plata, DR in 1979. As far as I could tell, that was the whole workshop there, with a handsaw, a hatchet and a hammer, and a bunch of tree limbs. Put together pretty much as Sailor says.

[Paul Pless]

I have pictures of some Haitian boats on the beach like you showed there.

Have you seen this? frikkin crazy!!!

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

If you want to build a boat of substandard materials, just let me know. I would be happy to come aboard in the first five years of it's life on a quiet small lake... not so much on open water when it is close to a decade old.

[Paul Pless]

I would like to have a new section in the forum with the heading of "Cheap Construction Materials & Method" or "Low Cost Boatbuilding". People are forever recommending fasteners that will last many decades, very expensive, dangerous paint, but I would be happy if a wooden boat lasted 15 years. The expense of the marine plywood, paint, and fasteners is just too much. The high expense of building a wooden boat drives away potential boatbuilders.

If you want to build a boat of substandard materials, just let me know. I would be happy to come aboard in the first five years of it's life on a quiet small lake... not so much on open water when it is close to a decade old.

Okay seriously, techniques involving some less expensive methods of still building a quality boat have been well documented on this forum. Perfectly capable, long lived and seaworthy boats built by as varied methods as:

• exterior grade fir plywood covered in epoxy and fiberglass
• exterior grade fir plywood with no cloth
• strip planked boats of white pine, just nailed together and then painted (think small lobster boats)
• Carvel fastened with galvinized fasteners
• Reuel Parker's New cold Molded method
• stitch and glue plywood
• Folks like Oyster that build real high quality boats to a high level of finish in either ply or strip using PL premium

I'm reminded of a conversation I had in Newport with my friend Ken Hutchins once. We were looking at a fishing boat, ply screwed into solid frames. . . We overheard a couple of guys aboard a nearby gold plater saying some pretty negative things about plywood boats not being real wooden boats and how ply was an awful material, yada yada. As we turned to walk away, Ken said, "there's no wrong way to build a boat. . . .except ferrocement of course."

[S B]

Don't paint your boat with oil of cloves, it will smell like a funeral parlour.
First time builders should build cheap boats. Before you decide what to build you should decide what you are, builder or sailor. If you are sailor, there are cheaper means of getting on the water. If you are builder, you need to have your first mistakes hurt as little as possible. The kit and plans sold promise you a boat. But if the boat costs you so much that you don't get to try again for 15 years, that will be 15 years of living with your mistakes, even if only you see them, and you will. First boat need only last long enough for it's replacement to be built.

[tigerregis]

A pleasure to read the philosophers with real experience give their POV's. I did not read one piece of advice that was not on the money and there was not a hint of sarcasm or paternalism. Another joy for me in the annals of WBF.

[Boston]

I agree, we should consider the viable options.

There are cheaper forms of ply for instance that are suitable for the marine environment.

I'm not very familiar with the Dougy ply someone mentioned

Maybe we should begin a more serious discussion there.

[keith66]

There is a lot of cheap exterior plywood on sale over here, might be chinese not sure, it looks good but put it anywhere near water & it delaminates faster than you can paint it. Marked as exterior but might as well be stuck together with wallpaper paste, would that be economical in a boat?

[Boston]

Seems the prudent thing to do is conduct a few boil tests on whatever ply your considering. Over here in the states all exterior ply is supposed to use a waterproof glue. Although supposed to and does are often two different things.

[robert666]

+1 on cheap boats first to sharpen ones skills. I have only ever built cheap boats, its all I can afford and building can be cheaper than buying. So here is my history as a boat builder and approximate costs.

My first boat was built when I was 13, a small coracle. Hazel rods and willow cut in local woods, calico skin was £20, drum of tar from a skip, Paddle £3.
Total cost £23, hours of fun. Better than the £30 Inflatables all the tourist kids had.

My second boat was similar to a bolger tortoise but of my own design, 6'6''x 3'6''x1'6'', I was 14, and I had access to a building site. I swept up every few days and collected all the dropped nails, collected all the 2x offcuts, and bought one sheet of 1/2'' and one sheet of 1/4'' exterior ply for £25. I used the rest of the drum of tar for a finish. I bought a pair of rowlocks and a ringbolt for £20. Oars were salvaged from a shed clearout.Total cost £45. I used her for 2 years, the for another year as tender to boat no 3. after that I gave her to a friend who used her for another year, We burned her and used her fitting for boat no 6.

My third boat was a 13ft jonboat, I think I was just 15, more salvaged 2x lumber. 3 sheets of exterior ply for £50. about £25 for fittings. £25 for a bucket of roof patching tar. Despite using the same plywood as above she only lasted 18 months on the mooring.

My fourth boat was a chamberlain dory skiff, I had attempted an oughtred whilly boat but the garboards kept failing, either the epoxy or the plywood gluelines at the sternpost. The doryskiff cost a total of £350, using 3/8 marine ply, sp106 epoxy and more salvaged 2x lumber. paint was exterior gloss. 3 years later she's ready for a re-paint but still sound.

I belive that cheap boats are fine, as long as your expectations are not too high. Cheap materials are fine as long as you are selective, checking for void, split, knot, sapwood etc when buying.

Robert

[Bluegill]

Rather than silicon bronze nails and screws, would self-tapping "deck screws" and epoxy work for a dry sailed fishing boat ???
Douglas ply is disgusting to work with; I just would not use douglas fir again on a boat.
Maybe this PL glue would do a satisfactory job, rather than epoxy glue.

[Wayne Jeffers]

Silicon bronze ring nails are not so expensive. A pound goes a long way. Hot-dipped galvanized is an alternative.

Rustproof deck screws are fine for dry-sailed boat.

PL Premium works fine. You don't need epoxy at all.

What's wrong with Douglas fir plywood, other than checking, which raw linseed oil will prevent?

Latex house paint works fine.

Just don't expect a boat built this way to become a family heirloom. But, no, you don't need the expensive, exotic stuff to make a serviceable boat to last a decade or two.

Wayne

[Boston]

OK I've heard PL several times here so far.

Not sure if maybe I just got a bad few hundred tubes at this point but I've boil tested th stuff numerous times and its failed every time. Near as I can tell it simply can't handle the marine environment. So how can you guys suggest it held. Its never survived a single test I've ever given it. Hell its fallen apart long before its even out of the boil pot.

I'm baffled how PL is even a consideration ?????????????

[Bluegill]

OK I've heard PL several times here so far.
Not sure if maybe I just got a bad few hundred tubes at this point but I've boil tested th stuff numerous times and its failed every time. Near as I can tell it simply can't handle the marine environment. I'm baffled how PL is even a consideration ?????????????

My marine environment is hot but it does not boil.

[Tom Robb]

Per The Elements of Seamanship, "Never boil your boat." They do tend to go mushy and rather tasteless.

[Redeye]

I have talked to exterminators who say oil of wintergreen or clove oil are better at killing bugs than sumithrin gas or ddt and they wont result in the fish kills that pyrethroids do.

Clove oil, eugenol, is used to anesthetize fish. if you're lucky, fishing from a boat soaked in this will be as easy as collecting the fish from teh water. of course if your boat is like that you're likely to get clovered in clove oil and feel nothing yourself. Its a great analgesisc

[Bob Cleek]

"Low cost" is a vague thing. People are often very short-sighted when they limiit their analysis to the initial cost of materials, touting plywood and PL Premium and so on. As I mentioned above, there is the value of your time and the VALUE ADDED realized, or not, in the finished boat. Beyond that, there is the COST OF OWNERSHIP of the boat after it is built. Boats built of inferior materials will end up needing more repairs and boats built with a lot of the "modern" construction methods (strip planking, epoxy lamination, etc.) will be far more expensive to repair than boats built traditionally. Boats degrade rapidly, relatively speaking. Theirs is an unfriendly environment. Ease of replacing parts as they wear out is an important feature of traditional construction. Not so at all with a lot of modern methods. Those who spend a couple of thousand years evolving traditional construction methods put a lot of experience and wisdom into construction methods which not only built good boats, but also helped them last. Often, the difference between a sound boat and a rotten one is only the design and execution of her joints. A design philosophy which addresses such problems by "encapsulation" for example, is doomed to failure in the long term. Learning WHY the traditional methods were used is essential to building sound boats economically. Epoxy and plywood cost a lot more (and weigh a lot more) than natural wood and mechanical fastenings and joints.

[Bob Adams]

OK I've heard PL several times here so far.

Not sure if maybe I just got a bad few hundred tubes at this point but I've boil tested th stuff numerous times and its failed every time. Near as I can tell it simply can't handle the marine environment. So how can you guys suggest it held. Its never survived a single test I've ever given it. Hell its fallen apart long before its even out of the boil pot.

I'm baffled how PL is even a consideration ?????????????

Want to know how to remove epoxy? Heat. It doesn't pass the boil test either but is considered by many to be premier boat building goo.

[Paul Pless]

Want to know how to remove epoxy? Heat. It doesn't pass the boil test either but is considered by many to be premier boat building goo.

epoxy is crap

[upchurchmr]

Bob,

With all due respect you are generalizing too much. I had a ply and epoxy Tornado catamaran and it was perfectly sound after 20 years. I keep watching the "traditional" boats people are trying to restore in this forum and think how lucky I was to have the epoxy boat - not built by me, I had it second hand. Interesting how the older traditional boats are often weighed in "tons" not pounds. It would be interesting to see you convert the Tornado 4mm (0.160") plywood with Epoxy and fiberglass to solid timber construction. What do you think it would weight?

I certainly believe everthing you said about the cost of ownership and the value of your time. We diverge with "boats degrade rapidly". I might agree if you said "traditional boats degrade rapidly....".

But I am not very interested in Traditional boats so that biases my opinion.

Bob Adams,

I have never seen a boat sail in boiling water. The boil test is an artificial test to accelerate aging of glued specimens. At best it gives you some information, at worst it misleads you as to what is acceptable.

"Low cost" is a vague thing. People are often very short-sighted when they limiit their analysis to the initial cost of materials, touting plywood and PL Premium and so on. As I mentioned above, there is the value of your time and the VALUE ADDED realized, or not, in the finished boat. Beyond that, there is the COST OF OWNERSHIP of the boat after it is built. Boats built of inferior materials will end up needing more repairs and boats built with a lot of the "modern" construction methods (strip planking, epoxy lamination, etc.) will be far more expensive to repair than boats built traditionally. Boats degrade rapidly, relatively speaking. Theirs is an unfriendly environment. Ease of replacing parts as they wear out is an important feature of traditional construction. Not so at all with a lot of modern methods. Those who spend a couple of thousand years evolving traditional construction methods put a lot of experience and wisdom into construction methods which not only built good boats, but also helped them last. Often, the difference between a sound boat and a rotten one is only the design and execution of her joints. A design philosophy which addresses such problems by "encapsulation" for example, is doomed to failure in the long term. Learning WHY the traditional methods were used is essential to building sound boats economically. Epoxy and plywood cost a lot more (and weigh a lot more) than natural wood and mechanical fastenings and joints.

[Bob Adams]

Yup, unless you anchor over a volcano, the boiling test don't mean much IMHO. I was simply pointing that out to Boston.

[Wayne Jeffers]

epoxy is crap

So is CPES.

And you can't beat Chinese Diesels.



Wayne

[Redeye]

Sun can heat cured epoxy to temperatures where it is only 30% as strong as spec. BANG! there go your mast.

[upchurchmr]

Can you show a link to material properties verses temp? I do know Epoxy is not really very high temp, but we use 350 degree F cured epoxy which is good to 250. I don't know what the Tg of room temp epoxy is - especially if it is post cured (in the sun). Of course anyone who paints a mast black or uses graphite without painting it white deserves what they get.

Anyone know what temperature wind surfer masts are cured at?

Sun can heat cured epoxy to temperatures where it is only 30% as strong as spec. BANG! there go your mast.

[Wayne Jeffers]

Sun can heat cured epoxy to temperatures where it is only 30% as strong as spec. BANG! there go your mast.

I wonder how many thousand glued-lap ply boats are held together with little besides epoxy. I wonder if they are sailed only on cloudy days.

(I have visions of Icarus dancing in my head on this one.)

Wayne

[Paul Pless]

I wonder how many thousand glued-lap ply boats are held together with little besides epoxy. I wonder if they are sailed only on cloudy days.

(I have visions of Icarus dancing in my head on this one.)

Wayne

I guarantee you that The G Bros know exactly at what temp bonds made with their epoxy begin to fail. Even more curiously in my twenty plus years of subscribing to WoodenBoat Magazine I can not recall of reading of even one such glued lap failure. . .

http://www.westsystem.com/ss/if-you-...take-the-heat/

[mcdenny]

The glass transition temperature for common boat epoxy is about 140 degrees F.

I have a ten year old meranti ply plus epoxy boat painted black hanging in a boat hoist where the south facing side is exposed to the sun pretty much all the time. No problems with epoxy degradation. This in southern Mich at 41 degrees N latitude.

As an aside I have a thermometer in my shop attic which is poorly vented and has black shingles. It was sunny, 91 F yesterday and 108 F in the attic. I think it would be really rare to get a surface up to 140 F at least this far north.

[Wayne Jeffers]

. . .I can not recall of reading of even one such glued lap failure. . .

Paul,

I know that. I forgot the <sarcasm> smiley that should have been included. I think you knew that.

(I also question the literal truth of the story of Icarus flying too close to the sun and his wings falling apart.)

Wayne

[James McMullen]

Epoxy and plywood cost a lot more (and weigh a lot more) than natural wood and mechanical fastenings and joints.

I agree with Mr. Cleek in general, except for the part bolded above which is simply not true. Properly engineered modern wood/epoxy composite structure is substantially lighter and stronger than trad. wood construction. This is not necessarily the case with quick and cheap-o construction, but is very much true with the sophisticated methods such as glued-lap or cold-molded. I agree that natural wood is more pleasant to work with, but let's be honest about the facts here.

[Bob Cleek]

I agree with Mr. Cleek in general, except for the part bolded above which is simply not true. Properly engineered modern wood/epoxy composite structure is substantially lighter and stronger than trad. wood construction. This is not necessarily the case with quick and cheap-o construction, but is very much true with the sophisticated methods such as glued-lap or cold-molded. I agree that natural wood is more pleasant to work with, but let's be honest about the facts here.

Well, I'm not necessarily being dishonest with the facts. I could be wrong. Stranger things have been known to happen. Still, while there are composite wood adhesive boats that are quite remarkably lightweight for their size, but I think it is fair to say that, for instance, a plywood glued lap epoxy sheathed boat is going to be heavier than the same design built traditionally to the same scantlings. I could be wrong, I think plywood of the same dimensions will be heavier than most any species of wood, save the really heavy species.

[Paul G.]

Duckworks is your friend for the kind of boat you're looking for.

If you want a cheap boat to go boating, buy secondhand. You cannot build a boat for less than most are selling for, in fact if you look you will get 3 times your money worth at least. If you want to build and cant afford it, build a decent smaller boat and failing that build a model. I dont think there is much pleasure to be had in a big box style of boat apart from thinking about how much you saved.

[Redeye]

I plan on building cold-molded ply over larch stringers and oak backbone, with permanent ply bulkheads.

The ply hull layer is because it is dimensionally stable, and it is strong, and the flatter sections of the hull can be "planked" more quickly. Meaning savings in workshop rental as well as meaning, in general, the materials are easier to source.

Thing is almost the only ply I can get in the right quality is Okume. I don't mind the price, but it seems to be a pretty bad timber generally as well as being imported from teh tropics. Pine seems so much better mechanically, hence my other thread asking about pine ply, and it's a local timber.

To build a boat more cheaply, use local timber, and don't fit it out with all the modern crap you don't need!
The fit-out is what costs a fortune!

[Redeye]

This is quite possibly one of the coolest builds I have ever seen.
I love the psuedosymmetry, the uneven clamps, the wobbly framing and the patchwork planking. but you have to admit, that it is still elegant...

[James McMullen]

. . .I think it is fair to say that, for instance, a plywood glued lap epoxy sheathed boat is going to be heavier than the same design built traditionally to the same scantlings. I could be wrong, I think plywood of the same dimensions will be heavier than most any species of wood, save the really heavy species.

Yes, you are wrong. A monocoque glued-lapstrake plywood boat can use substantially lighter scantlings and eliminate a great deal of the framing and extra structure, yet achieve the same or greater strength. My 20' Rowan weighs the same as Tim's 16' trad. lap peapod.

I actually prefer to build trad. lap over just about any other form of woodworking, but glued-lap is still what I choose for my own personal boat.

[Paul Pless]

I actually prefer to build trad. lap over just about any other form of woodworking, but glued-lap is still what I choose for my own personal boat.

uhhhh. . .

[David G]

Yes, you are wrong. A monocoque glued-lapstrake plywood boat can use substantially lighter scantlings and eliminate a great deal of the framing and extra structure, yet achieve the same or greater strength. My 20' Rowan weighs the same as Tim's 16' trad. lap peapod.

I actually prefer to build trad. lap over just about any other form of woodworking, but glued-lap is still what I choose for my own personal boat.

uhhhh. . .

I know subtle distinctions are difficult when you're worried about all the cat fuzz stuck to you with dogslobber... but James is talking about the difference between what makes sense for a boat to use, and what's the most satisfying, gratifying, and beatifying type of construction to perform. End user vs. fabricator.

Oh... and to add fuel to the fire... the plywood version will be faster to build, and more likely for a first-time builder to achieve success with.

[Gerarddm]

The Hatian boat proves my point about it all being relative. There comes a point when cheap and inexpensive turns out to be dangerous. As a glaring example, Raw Faith.


The journey can be more important than the destination. Build a boat not because it cheaper than buying, but because you want to.