Deadwood and mast timber in Oz

[andrewpatrol]

I'm looking for timber to build the deadwood, mast and other jobs on my boat. I have a source for KD oregon but it seems to be all flat sawn, but otherwise very good quality. They also have green oregon in long lengths but the ring count is about half the KD stuff. I could get them to cut me knot free QS lengths which I could store for drying ( risky? ) down to a lower moisture level.
I'm wondering about Hoop Pine, but is it suitable for deadwood etc. The sort of sizes I need are 125x50 finished, in lengths up to about 16 ft.
Any other suitable timbers out there does any one know?

BTW Oz = Australia

Andrew

[WX]

Andrew can you remind me what are you building? For your mast Hoop pine would fine. If you have a timber recycle yard around check them out. I biult my mast from recycled Oregon.

[andrewpatrol]

WX thanks, doh, why didnt I think of that about a recycle yard. Me in the building industry too, double double doh doh.

[PeterSibley]

There's lots of good oregon down in Melbourne and over in Adelaide Andrew, as Gary says used can be good!

[skuthorp]

Andrew, I've got a couple of big old oregon beams, but I don't know what they're like re knots etc. I'll have a look tomorrow and get back to you. We are about 100K from the GPO on the way to Phillip Island.

[PeterSibley]

Old stuff can be lovely when you clean it up, I ran up some framing for a built in cupboard today from some old verandah posts.Very nice, clear, 15 rings per inch.

[skuthorp]

These are old enough to have been ballast imports from North America around 100 years ago.

[andrewpatrol]

These are old enough to have been ballast imports from North America around 100 years ago.

Sounds interesting Sku, even if they have the odd knot I could use them for the short lengths

[skuthorp]

Sounds interesting Sku, even if they have the odd knot I could use them for the short lengths

I think these are around 5M+ Andrew, 12"x4" or 5". I'll have a squiz tomorrow, give a section or two a shave with a plane.

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

Personally, I'd advise against using oregon for any deadwood, if that's what's being considered. Deadwood equals hardwood to me. Merbau is wonderful stuff for it, if you can still get it in sufficient size and quantity. Otherwise you could use spotted gum, mountain ash, or another local hardwood.

Good oregon makes great spars of course, and Jeff's sounds just the ticket for mast, boom, or gaff. You could make up some oars from the scrap as well....

Mike

[WX]

The deadwood I'm using for my keel is a hardwood mix with the denser laminations lower down, closer to the ballast. I've no idea what most of it is but it's heavy.

[andrewpatrol]

I'm torn between a hardwood and soft because building the boat upside down I have to heave all the deadwood components up top ( 22ft Grey Seal ) of the hull although the weight and longevity factors of hardwood far outweigh that. Guess I will just have to suck it up.
Is flooded gum predominantly a NSW timber?
Andrew

[WX]

I'm torn between a hardwood and soft because building the boat upside down I have to heave all the deadwood components up top ( 22ft Grey Seal ) of the hull although the weight and longevity factors of hardwood far outweigh that. Guess I will just have to suck it up.
Is flooded gum predominantly a NSW timber?
Andrew

It grows in QLD as well but being contrary they call it Rose Gum.

[Duncan Gibbs]

Andrew, what is the timber specified in Ian's drawings? I'd want to match it with something weight for weight and mechanically very similar. If the boat is going to live on a trailer I wouldn't be too concerned about the durability of the species, so long as you've primed, bedded down and painted the timber very well.

[andrewpatrol]

Iains not very specific about what timber to use where. He just says use a hardwood such as Mahogany, Iroko, Ash. I think European hardwoods are generally lighter than ours though arent they. Extra weight down low cant be too bad though. My other concern could be durability, even though I was considering Oregon.
Does any one have a source for Spotted or Flooded gum and is it too much to ask for Quarter Sawn? Some of the timber for the deadwood is 125 x 50.
Andrew

[Larks]

Barry Donchie up in Echuca used to have a wonderful supply of old bridge timbers that'd be perfect for deadwood and keel timber, however a quick search of the web suggests that Brendan Donchie may have taken over his business and changed the name to Nullarbor timber since I last saw Barry (about 20 -25 years ago), I assume he must be Barry's son. I don't know if they'd still have access to the sort of timbers that they used to pull out of all of the old bridges around Victoria but they may be worth a call:
http://www.nullarbortimber.com.au/pr.../products.html

[Duncan Gibbs]

I may be able to fix you up with spotted or even white mahogany depending on length, either rift or quarter sawn. EBS?

You should try calculate the mass weight of the parts needed for the timber of the drawing (about 650 to 750/800KG per M3) compared to spotted gum or white mahogany (950 -1050KG per M3). Anything significant - say 3 - 5% of the total displacement in difference - and you may want to look at trim. Write to Ian for his verdict as well as he's a living resource who seems more than happy to provide assistance. I dare say, being orstraalian'an all, he may still retain knowledge of local hardwoods. Have you got a copy of Bootles?

[andrewpatrol]

Hi Duncan,
Not sure what you mean by "Bootles". Tried googling and got all sorts from the Beetles to a timber supplier in FNQ to a photo sharing thingo.
I found another place in Kinglake (not far from here) that has all sorts of salvaged timber too - looks promising, just have to get up there.
That oregon looks promising for my spars at least. I'll see what else they have. I actually just rang him and he says he has Tallow-wood and I wouldnt be able to fing any better timber for a keel/deadwood. And the oregon was in a warehouse and is up to 9 metres long.
Heres a link if you're interested
http://botimber.com.au/index.html

[WX]

We drove through Kinglake a couple of years ago, the place was still blackened and burnt. I like the house on their website.

[Duncan Gibbs]

Hi Duncan,
Not sure what you mean by "Bootles".

Keith R Bootle Wood In Australia: Types , properties and uses

AKA The Bible

Tallow Wood would be good and is about the same in stability as both WM & SG.

9m Oregon sections eh? I wonder what the ring count is on them? I need to get some for the Dragon.

[andrewpatrol]

I'm just a bit concerned about Tallowwood because it apparently has a greasy feel and needs to be washed with something before glueing. Spose a bit like Teak.
When I go up there I'll be checking out the Oregon for myself so I can report back for you Duncan, He reckons he's had a bit to do with boatbuilding, dunno how much though! On the phone he sounded a bit of the salesman type. He's also on Ebay under timber - thats where I found him
Might be able to get up there next weekend, if not definately the one after.
In #17 post you used the acronym EBS - whats that mean? You mentioned you might be able to help out with SG or WM How much and what sort of lengths do you have?
I just emailed Iain O to ask him if heavy Aus timber is ok weight wise - Maybe I could reduce size of ballast to compensate somehow.

[PeterSibley]

EBS ...Elbow Bending Session, a meeting of friends to yarn, drink the occasional ale and usually talk boats .

Most European and US hardwoods seem to run around 45 lb/ cubic ft or 720 kg per cubic m , as Duncan says that's heavy pine (say p.elliotii ...slash pine or some of the heavy dense p.radiata from around Mt Gambier),perhaps good hoop pine, flooded/ rose gum, silky oak... most of the lighter Oz rainforest species.

Oregon is a bit lighter usually but fine .

[purri]

Of Doulas Fir you will find that it gets a touch carroty after many years away from sunlight. Tallowood is fine for specific applications but for keel and deadwood thare are many that are better.

[WX]

Jeez I used whatever was wide and long enough. Oz hardwood of course, I drew the line on using pine.

[PeterSibley]

Hoop is good !

[andrewpatrol]

I may be able to fix you up with spotted or even white mahogany depending on length, either rift or quarter sawn. EBS?

You should try calculate the mass weight of the parts needed for the timber of the drawing (about 650 to 750/800KG per M3) compared to spotted gum or white mahogany (950 -1050KG per M3). Anything significant - say 3 - 5% of the total displacement in difference - and you may want to look at trim. Write to Ian for his verdict as well as he's a living resource who seems more than happy to provide assistance. I dare say, being orstraalian'an all, he may still retain knowledge of local hardwoods. Have you got a copy of Bootles?

I contacted Iain who said not to worry about weight as stuff can be moved around inside boat for trimming her up. At a rough guess there is probably only 30 kg max difference anyway, guess I may be over thinking. Reckon I'll try to find some Spotted or Flood Gum.

[Duncan Gibbs]

What lengths are you after? I've got heaps of flooded which would laminate up quite nicely.

[andrewpatrol]

What lengths are you after? I've got heaps of flooded which would laminate up quite nicely.

basically the deadwood is a 16 ft long x 5" wide x 12" deep beam with a centreboard slot and scribed to the bottom of hull and a 7 ft x 7" x5" lead ballast on the bottom. I reckon I wil build it up out of 5" x 2" (finished) planks, two of which need to about 16ft long, then a whole pile of 8 ft and 6 ft pieces to fill-in around. I can narrow it down better if you can help, also my fussy nerve is asking how dry, straight and is it quarter sawn etc.

[PeterSibley]

Off to the demo yard with your tape measure Andrew. Ask to look at his prettiest 6x2s .Dry they will be about 48mm x 135mm.

[Duncan Gibbs]

It's a mixed bunch, but if you go for thinner laminations - say 1" - epoxied together I wouldn't think you'd notice if they were plain, rift or quarter sawn. My big stick I milled up for Erica is a piece of 5200L x 150 sided x 360mm moulded plain sawn SG which has now got a big bow along it. (It originally came off the saw straight). I'm thinking of taking it to the local mill and getting it cut horizontally down the middle and bolting the two halves together with lots of good bedding: Home made pine tar!

The rule is the bigger the piece you deal with the more quarter sawn it should be. Lots of little pieces won't move nearly as much.

[PeterSibley]

Almost every stick of hardwood in Australia from a conventional mill will be flat sawn, have a look at the ends at the yard, even thin stuff like flooring.

[andrewpatrol]

Hi Duncan, At the risk of sounding ungrateful I'm afraid I'll back out of your timber, it would be a big expense getting it down here ( as well as the purchase ) not knowing how or if I could use it. Thanks for the offer any how

Andrew

[Sayla]

The sort of sizes I need are 125x50 finished, in lengths up to about 16 ft.
Any other suitable timbers out there does any one know?

BTW Oz = Australia

Andrew

Check out Britton Timbers in Dandenong - they've got all sorts at quite reasonable prices - there's also 'Australian Furniture Timbers' down there.

For the mast hoop pine is commonly used. For deadwood I would have thought suitable timbers would be low shrinkage, moderate and greater density, class 1 durability and highest gluability available - which creates a limited spectrum. I presume the intention for the deadwood would be to remain dry in situ. Epoxy laminated Celery Top pine would be my hands down first choice. Other considerations would be epoxy laminated New Guinea Rosewood, resorcinol laminated Merbau, epoxy laminated Fiji mahogany (durability class 2), epoxy laminated Tassie Blackwood (durability class 2) - low movement and glue holding is my priority, but there's plenty of people who use Blackbutt, Flooded Gum, Spotted Gum etc though often for more traditional construction. There's a particular Red Stringybark (Eucalyptus macrorhyncha) that is durable, stable / lowshrinkage hard and heavy and glues ok but I think it's not very cheap and I don't know a lot else about it (check out Monaro Timbers).

sayla

[purri]

Niugini rosie has quite a high level of natural oils so tread carefully and it's certainly too dense for mast or spars. Better still are the trad Oz species for deadwood and keel. Best of all is to talk to the mill and esp their timbergetters and set parameters for how the timber is (to be) selected and sawn before you outlay any walung.

[andrewpatrol]

I reckon I'll do as Peter suggests and hang around 2nd hand salvage yards, that way I can select what I want and get them to saw up stuff into QS chunks. Probabaly looking in the spotted or flood gums sorta range for deadwood and oregon for mast etc