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Thread: Oughtred - Grey Seal

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Oughtred - Grey Seal

    Peter, No offence but I think you're striving for too much perfection. If you could plane to that perfection you'd squash all the epoxy out of the lap. What is it about half a mil we're talking about. Mate you're being too hard on yourself. Did you get your moulds to that degree of perfect? I know I catch myself doing it too, but you have to be honest.
    Ok Off my soap box now - carry on.
    Now about my fairing, the tool you show is for the laps, my prob is with the frames for which your moulds are pre-stepped like a 50 cent piece, but I have frames screwed on the stem side of my moulds so they are needing to be stepped or faired, I have a choice. What I can do is wait until each plank is on, then fair the next planks worth of laps and frame OR I could just fair the whole frame in a curve not worrying about 50 cent steps ( our 50 cent coins have 12 sides ).
    I have ach plank lap marked on the moulds but another problem I have is that since I had to move two of the moulds the lap lines dont fall on the planks anymore. so I have to make up some battens to line out the frame 3 and 4 laps, but since my thinnesser is bust it aint gonna happen today

    Picture No2 in #54 above may make it clearer, you can just make out the lap lines on mould and the frame on right, the station line falls between them, so frame needs to be faired back to allow plank to lay on station.

  2. #72
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    Default Re: Oughtred - Grey Seal

    OK, I see the problem. It seems that seeing you have the frames in now and the only way is to lay out your laps , pick up a bundle of battens then gently excavate until they lie fair across the bevels you cut. But what does IO suggest? Surely he gives a few tips?

    As to my perfectionism, mate if I try for a good fit I'll get a reasonable one! If I aim for any less she'll sink !!
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  3. #73
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    Default Re: Oughtred - Grey Seal

    That's about my attitude to being perfect too, some bits of me are and others are trying to catch up!!! Meanwhile I'll keep my other hand on the big bucket.
    IO's book runs out of advice when it comes to his bigger designs so I have to rely on previous threads and blogs and one series run by our hosts a few years back.
    I have to make up my mind whether to step or curve the frames. Curving means filling in the wedge shapes between plank and frame after with filler or if stepping then not so much filling. Somewhere somebody has a router jig to step the frames at the same angle that plank crosses, it's quite something and seeing as I'll have something like 150 (16 planks times 9 frames) of these steps to cut then its quite worthwhile to make up. After the garboard is when I'll get onto that perhaps or cut them by hand - dunno. Meanwhile things will be pretty slow cos I got a stack of honey do's mounting up, much like yourself.

  4. #74
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    Default Re: Oughtred - Grey Seal

    There is one drawing in IO's book showing a batten bent over a frame or perhaps a transom and a saw cut being made parallel to the batten, so setting the depth and angle of the bevel. If you cut the flats with you 7 1/4" circular then did the batten and gentle handsaw cut that would establish flats and bevels or you could also leave them round, which would be good for drainage.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  5. #75
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    Default Re: Oughtred - Grey Seal

    what page is that drawing Peter. My problem is a bit like 5-46 (with a frame added in ) which is your setup, but mine is running in a curve, instead of steps, with points on the lap co-ordinates and with the added problem that the planks cross each frame sweeping in towards their respective stems. I reckon I got it sorted in my head just gotta do it, first comes the garboard, boy that'll be good.

  6. #76
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    Default Re: Oughtred - Grey Seal

    The book is down the shed at the moment Andrew, I'll check and tell you but it's pretty simple.

    Were you to set out the planks with battens, then saw the flats between those points .... that would be the basic layout wouldn't it?
    If you then wrap battens across the flats and run your handsaw in to a line parallel to the batten that would be the bevel angle.

    Am I missing anything ?
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  7. #77
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    Default Re: Oughtred - Grey Seal

    Page 42 4-52,53 etc.
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  8. #78
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    Default Re: Oughtred - Grey Seal

    Hi Peter, I am in the process of doing as per diagram 4-54 for the garboard only. I have to wait until the garboard is glued on until I can do the next plank and so on. One builder I know of has done as per 4-52 and afterwards he is going to fill in the frame/plank gaps because the frames wont be stepped.

  9. #79
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    Default Re: Oughtred - Grey Seal

    Do you have your plank layout worked out Andrew ?
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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    Default Re: Oughtred - Grey Seal

    Its about 80 % done, if you mean the lining out. I have Mr O's plank lap marks from the plans which once i get my thicknesser going ( to complete the battens) will run right through from bow to stern. Two of the frames dont have the marks. So its about a month away due to some honey do's.

  11. #81
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    Default Re: Oughtred - Grey Seal

    My stations were marked with the plank butt points for the stitch and glue version but I'm being "flexible" and as long as the laps are fair and it looks as if the relative widths of the hood ends at bow and stern are good to my eye I'm happy.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  12. #82
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    Default Re: Oughtred - Grey Seal

    Careful Andrew, that shed's starting to fill up! You do know that there is a well studied physics law and formula that equates to something like: "I need a bigger shed!!!"
    Larks

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    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
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    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  13. #83
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    Default Re: Oughtred - Grey Seal

    Quote Originally Posted by andrewpatrol View Post
    Hi Peter, I am in the process of doing as per diagram 4-54 for the garboard only. I have to wait until the garboard is glued on until I can do the next plank and so on. One builder I know of has done as per 4-52 and afterwards he is going to fill in the frame/plank gaps because the frames wont be stepped.
    Hi Andrew! I was just alerted to this thread by Larks. It's great, and good luck! I look forward to looking in.

    Our Folkboat has glued clinker panking with steamed and laminated frames. There's a small gap where each frame crosses each land. I wouldn't fill these or worry about them at all if I were building a new boat. They allow better ventilation and may be one of the reasons why our 50 year old boat has had no rot in any intersections between frames and planking. If any moisture does get in between the planking and frame, which it does from time to time, as that's where the fastenings penetrate the hull, it drips through to the gap and dries out. The hull is designed to be strong without blocking in these gaps.

    Rick

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    Default Re: Oughtred - Grey Seal

    Hi Rick, welcome, That would be a bit unusual for a boat of yours' age wouldnt it? What would they have used for an adhesive without the forgiving qualities of epoxy? Perhaps they were better wood butchers then !!!
    I take your very good point on ventilation and I'm now swaying in favour of the fairing and stick em on method. I spose the planks are unsupported between frames any way and Iain O actually stated in passing that one could probably build the boat without frames anyway.

  15. #85
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    Default Re: Oughtred - Grey Seal

    Yes, it wasn't a common method then. The planks are all glued together with resorcinol, just as the coachwood ply planks themselves were glued up with resorcinol.

    Rick

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    Default Re: Oughtred - Grey Seal

    Andrew,
    I need an update on how you are going so I know how hard I need to work over the Christmas/New Year. Photos, lots of photos!!!!
    Quest

    Moving slowly towards a Welsford Sundowner.

    Hobart Wooden Boat Festival 2017, or maybe 2019ish??

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...undowner-build
    http://sundownerbuild.blogspot.com.au/

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    Default Re: Oughtred - Grey Seal

    Hi Mal, good to hear from you, you could take some time off cos I have been doing some work on our house which has occupied the last six weeks, so I am still on the start of the frame fairing stage (bit scary actually cos you only get one go). But I intend to do some more over early Jan.
    Andrew

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    Default Re: Oughtred - Grey Seal

    I sympathise Andrew, I just finished reroofing our house, back to JIM after I catch up on other jobs !
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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    Default Re: Oughtred - Grey Seal

    Hi Andrew,
    Be brave! There's no such thing as "one go" with epoxy lam frames. If you go too deep, just glue on another strip and fair it again. Remember the mantra: "Thickened epoxy is your friend. Thickened epoxy is your friend...." It is a shame how life keeps intruding on the really important stuff, but I'll look forward to your January posts.

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    Default Re: Oughtred - Grey Seal

    Quote Originally Posted by andrewpatrol View Post
    Hi Mal, good to hear from you, you could take some time off cos I have been doing some work on our house which has occupied the last six weeks, so I am still on the start of the frame fairing stage (bit scary actually cos you only get one go). But I intend to do some more over early Jan.
    Andrew
    I know what you mean about the fairing. I have almost finished marking out for the 8 stringers (four each side) between the main ones on my build. On some of the early main ones I didn't let them in enough, so have to do some fairing once I get them all in place. I have gone bold now with the in between ones and will use them to guide me but will take my time. As you say, once you start sticking bits on to make the hull there is no going back!
    Quest

    Moving slowly towards a Welsford Sundowner.

    Hobart Wooden Boat Festival 2017, or maybe 2019ish??

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...undowner-build
    http://sundownerbuild.blogspot.com.au/

  21. #91
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    Default Re: Oughtred - Grey Seal

    hi there all, Well I've some progress and started on the first plank.



    Thought I'd have a go at the spiling method, versus the lattice template method, of getting the shape out ( sorry no pics of that ) but here is the end result



    You may notice that generally the plank is straight but with a bit of a woops at the rear stem in this pic. I should have taken more compass swipes along the keelson and I could have avoided that. This first garboard is made up of three sections, a forward full 8' , a rear full 8' and a piece in the centre of roughly 3'.
    In the end I decided to put this piece aside ( hopefully for later planks? ) and use it for a template, with fattening in this bit, to make a new plank section.
    Cutting the ply I used my Makita cordless saw which coped just fine ( one of the best makita cordless tools BTW ) and it cut the curves easily and I reckon itll cut smaller radius curves pretty well too. Does a much better job than a jigsaw, you can get a straighter cut more easily without the wanders like a jiggy, faster too. I only projected the blade about a millimetre through bottom of sheet



    I had never joined ply before with scarfs so this was a new experience ( cant tell you how much procrastination went into this!!! ) so Luckily Mr Sibley inspired me with the electric plane and hand planes to achieve this, which I must say I am damn proud of, and like most boat things they turn out to be pretty easy when one gets ones finger out of their *(&^. After I made my first scarf it felt a little fat when brushing my hand over the plank, so on my second one I concentrated a little better to get it flat or at least concave so the plank would be niiiiiiiice. I am hoping to get my feather edges straight and tight.


    Last edited by andrewpatrol; 03-02-2013 at 04:24 AM.

  22. #92
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    Default Re: Oughtred - Grey Seal

    After I'd joined the forward piece to the centre section of plank I placed them on the boat with rear section in place underlapped so I could work out scarf position and alignment of total plank. I am placing scarves so that water flows over and not into them if you know what I mean. The bow is on the left in this pic.



    Once I was happy with the overall alignment of both pieces I put a couple of screws in the waste sides of plank so that I could get my wife to move plank onto bench for glueing without fear of getting it crooked.



    I drew some lines along edges of plank, so I could take screws out and stick it together. Once the goop was on I clamped both pieces to edge of bench, to avoid slippage, and put a big tin with scrap metal on top ( I guess it weighs something like 30kg )

    Last edited by andrewpatrol; 03-02-2013 at 04:28 AM.

  23. #93
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    Default Re: Oughtred - Grey Seal

    Andrew,
    Great progress, and that is one lovely scarph! Once again, I envy you your space. I am down to 4 inches headroom clearance as I fasten my cabin top, and I have to suck in to work on the port side.

    I got a bit of advice on scarphing plywood, which was just a little too late for me, but you might want to give it a try. Rather than plane to a feather edge, I was advised to leave one ply thickness at the edge. The complementary scarph should be notched one ply into the wood where the boards meet. This gives you a very clean and straight butt that looks better if finished bright. I have seen plywood scarphs done this way, and it does look great. I wish I had known it a year or two earlier.

    Keep up the good work.

  24. #94
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    Default Re: Oughtred - Grey Seal

    Thanks Charles, 4" especially lowering ply into place with goop, you have more guts than I and with the pace you have kept up. Sort of ironic that you are building something that will be used in the big open spaces of outdoors!
    i placed the plane to block the boo-boo. Dunno if I can pull off a scarf to that degree of accuracy but will be interesting to give it a try, maybe a bit of fudging with the goop

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    Default Re: New build with PICS - yay



    I can see that the outside convex curve would cut ok with a circular saw, but always wondered how the inside concave part of a plank would cut with a circular saw because of the blade length. I guess if it only just reaches through the apparent blade length is reduced. Did you have any trouble with back part of the blade cutting into the plank after the front had gone though losing material? No kickback?

    Ed

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    Default Re: Oughtred - Grey Seal

    Ed, no kickback at all, that I could feel anyway. That's a good point about concave cuts, I'll remember to cut a bit wider of the line. I guess the tighter the curve the more chewing/kickback one will get from aft edge of blade. It's only about a six inch blade on that saw.

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    Default Re: Oughtred - Grey Seal

    Andrew, I think the inside curve is one of the major reasons I like the trellis method. I cut around 10mm wide with my 7" Makita and because of the difficulty of turning the cut and my strong desire not to cut into the plank it's a bit wide and optimistic.... then motor plane to about 3mm form the line. Next comes my router with a very wide 12mm acrylic base and a ball bearing pattern follower bit. That 3mm is about as much as the router likes to remove, well maybe 5mm.

    I clamp the trellis pattern on and trim the plank to shape. A hand plank smooths any roughness on the edge. Then the first plank is the guide for the second .

    The trellis is good BUT it does seem to flatten out a little as it's removed from the boat, not much but perhaps 5 to 10mm ? I don't like that error but it seems hard to remedy. My trellis is made up of single (scarfed) lengths of 19x19mm hoop pine, I was using mountain ash but it didn't like some of the bends and broke. The shape is almost completely covered in 4mm brace ply held with 20mm screws.

    I think your spilling method may well be more accurate but I like the speed of the trellis !
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  28. #98
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    Default Re: Oughtred - Grey Seal

    Thanks Peter, I think I'll use the trellis and cut oversize then put on boat, draw around lower plank line add for lap, then mark each mould point for upper edge, batten for the curve and cut at that. Seems to be that no method is totally accurate ( user error ???? ) fortunately these practice planks are mostly underwater !

  29. #99
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    I just finished cutting out a dozen planks using trellis patterns and a circular saw. I just cut both planks together right down the middle of the line using a 40 tooth blade. No issues at all with binding or burning. A pass or two with the block plane to knock off any slight bumps and they were good to go at about 10 minutes per set. The 40 tooth blade did a fantastic job - zero tearout even crosscutting. This was on 9mm joubert occume.

    I found the trellis method generally worked well but did require some care. I tried to capture too much of the forefoot curve and had to adjust (ie bend) the garboard pattern by 10mm or so at each end (on a double ender). It would have been easier to just leave that section oversize and mark on the boat.

    The rest of the planks fit right on the marks with minimal fuss. I did switch from a lot of little plywood scraps to the biggest sections possible and added more staples compared to the garboard.

    The last couple planks seemed to have a touch too much sweep to them, although I'm not sure why they worked differently than the middle planks. With everything lined up the plank lifted off the middle two moulds by about 5mm.

    Overall I found it worked out much better than the spiling did for my previous boat but that was a much different shape and I think the material used for the spiling board could have caused some issues. I found the main benefit to be the instant full size pattern which made it very easy to rough cut the plywood before scarfing. If scarfed on the boat (particularly one as big as yours) I could see spiling getting more convenient.

    And of course: the boat is looking great. I look forward to seeing more.

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    Default Re: Oughtred - Grey Seal

    Quote Originally Posted by andykane View Post
    I just finished cutting out a dozen planks using trellis patterns and a circular saw. I just cut both planks together right down the middle of the line using a 40 tooth blade. No issues at all with binding or burning. A pass or two with the block plane to knock off any slight bumps and they were good to go at about 10 minutes per set. The 40 tooth blade did a fantastic job - zero tearout even crosscutting. This was on 9mm joubert occume.

    I found the trellis method generally worked well but did require some care. I tried to capture too much of the forefoot curve and had to adjust (ie bend) the garboard pattern by 10mm or so at each end (on a double ender). It would have been easier to just leave that section oversize and mark on the boat.

    The rest of the planks fit right on the marks with minimal fuss. I did switch from a lot of little plywood scraps to the biggest sections possible and added more staples compared to the garboard.

    The last couple planks seemed to have a touch too much sweep to them, although I'm not sure why they worked differently than the middle planks. With everything lined up the plank lifted off the middle two moulds by about 5mm.

    Overall I found it worked out much better than the spiling did for my previous boat but that was a much different shape and I think the material used for the spiling board could have caused some issues. I found the main benefit to be the instant full size pattern which made it very easy to rough cut the plywood before scarfing. If scarfed on the boat (particularly one as big as yours) I could see spiling getting more convenient.

    And of course: the boat is looking great. I look forward to seeing more.
    Yes, I forgot that last advantage, a very real one and useful for accurately cutting out the sections from sheets.

    Re the trellis movement, it's largely been the trellis trying to straighten out, this leaves the ends accurate but the lap in the middle increases, as you say it is possible and even A REALLY GOOD IDEA to prefit the plank and then plane down to the new marks . I was in a hurry last plank and forgot ! Duh ! Easily fixed if I had remembered .
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  31. #101
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    Default Re: Oughtred - Grey Seal

    Terry Haines
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    Re: JIM, an 18 foot canoe yawl.
    Is that the Grey Seal build with the 1/2" plywood planks, Andrew? I looked up the min bending radius and it's about 59" for 1/2" ply of typical wood species; the bend looks to be tighter than that so you can certainly expect difficulties. I've read that heat will help, and of course ply will take a set if you bend it part way and leave it overnight then try again. Good luck with the second try!. BTW is ply spec'd by Iain?
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    Default Re: Oughtred - Grey Seal

    Hi Terry, yes that's right 1/2 inch ply is in the plans and there have been several built. When I set up the frames I had to check twice cos the stern looks real tight. I don't know what the radius is, be interesting to check. Ply seems to snap on outer veneer along grain lines funny enough. It lets go with a snap. I got the hot water on to it and it has taken a set after only about an hour.
    just went and did a rough measure , looks to be in the ball park of 36 inches radius. That wasn't diameter you were talking about was it?. If not then no wonder its difficult
    Last edited by andrewpatrol; 03-26-2013 at 11:47 PM.

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    Default Re: Oughtred - Grey Seal

    Did you just wrap it as far as seemed comfortable then pour on the hot water Andrew ?
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    Default Re: Oughtred - Grey Seal

    I lay a four fold towel on then plastic sheeting then another towel to insulate to keep heat in then poured boiling water in top with a comfortable pressure on clamps then about half an hour later gave the clamps another squeeze etc Peter. I took it off about an hour later and it held a set surprisingly. Looks like the crack is about 100 mm long, of which about 40 will be trimmed off, but it will be covered by next plank for about 25 of the remaining 60 then I'll hope to bond it by dribbling in goop. Maybe I'll drill a hole at top of crack and use a syringe to fill it. Can't be f'd making another plank or scarfing on another bit.

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    Default Re: Oughtred - Grey Seal

    As long as there is no hard shot it should be OK .

    Does IO mention steaming or hot water being needed ?
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