How many cruise HAPPILY without full headroom ?

[Hesp]

At 6' 2" I've never felt that lack of standing headroom was a serious disadvantage, and I lived on some of those boats - most of the time you sit or lie down. Perhaps I'm lazy, but why stand up when you can sit (or better still lie) down? Of course, the boat does have to be designed with low headroom in mind for it to work well. Also, a boat with less than standing headroom, four berths and four people on board is a very different thing to the same boat with two people on board. And I don't think max headroom is worth pursuing on boats of this size - 5'6" isn't much more useful than 5'3" IMO.

One thing's for sure (IMO), the slight inconvenience you'll endure by not being able to stand up to put your trousers on is more than made up for by the advantages of a smaller boat.

John

[PeterSibley]

John, one minor point ...in my case I'm 5'7". It makes finding a boat with sufficient headroom much easier .

[hikingchrs]

I would say that a boat with less than full headroom. Is better than a boat open to the sky, for cruising.

[gilberj]

Most of us are recreational sailors. We do not live on board, and we sail much less frequently than we might wish. We cruise even less frequently and usually for a shorter time than we wish. Standing headroom costs a lot of money. The boat is usually considerably longer, sometimes higher, and or deeper, and nearly always more complicated.
I'd love to have the time and resources to sail away. To live and cruise for months or years at a time.
At this time there are too many people and too many things depending on my income, I cannot get away. Even time taken for maintenance of my wooden boat must be stolen from other stuff I should be doing.
Owning Whimbrel is not really hurting me financially, I could afford a larger more complicated boat. I would not want to at this present stage of my life.
Whimbrel is a very good boat for me now, and will be the right boat for some considerable time into the future. Having standing headroom is not on my priority list at this time. I am happy having comfortable sitting and reclining space for two, or perhaps 3 persons, ( in my case it is usually two persons and a dog).

[tpelle]

I recall that the English Canoe Yawls of years ago had cabin tops that were hinged at the front and lifted at the rear, with a sort of triangular canvas flap that made the resulting gap somewhat weathertight. The Sam Rabl Titmouse / Stambaugh Meadowbird use the same device (although the Stambaugh web page doesn't appear to mention it). This may be a possible solution, and perhaps more structurally robust than a complete pop-top, and certainly easier to build.

[Alan H]

I'd love standing headroom in a boat that I was going to be aboard for a week, but it's not a requirement. Like many have already written, standing headroom for a weeks cruise is no big deal. My personal experience from sailing boats to Hawaii, twice which did not have standing headroom, is that it really wasn't a huge deal. I just wish that the Santa Cruz 27 had had 3 more inches of room under the side decks so that I didn't have to slouch so badly for 16 days. Where the headroom really pays off, though, is when you get "there". If "there" is going to be a distant port where you will be living on the boat for several weeks or months before you head out to the next destination. I suspect that's where it pays off.

So in summary...cruising around home waters, within 50-60 miles of the home port, for 3-4-5-6 days at a time? No big deal. For journeys far and wide...yeah. I'd want to be able to stand up.

Could I DO IT? As in, could I force myself to live aboard a boat which did not have standing headroom for a year? Sure. It can be done. But your threads title is "who is HAPPY....."

[John B]

I made a slightly bigger than normal main hatch so you could stand at the galley, and gave my butterfly skylight an extra inch of coaming to sit on, and then hinged it at the front. That way we could get a place to stand in the middle of the boat to stretch if needed. Did for 25 years or so anyway.



But the thing that transformed the boat , a compromise , was a fold down spray dodger with enough drift aft that you could sit under it outside. I went to a lot of trouble to get that to fold flat and be as inconspicuous as possible when it was down.

[peabody]

Guys.....ive cruised for over 30 years in a land yacht ....36" sleeping bunk. Two storage bins. Three shelves ..Thats it....my yacht was a 379 extended hood peterbilt.Peabody

[Larks]

I made a slightly bigger than normal main hatch so you could stand at the galley, and gave my butterfly skylight an extra inch of coaming to sit on, and then hinged it at the front. That way we could get a place to stand in the middle of the boat to stretch if needed. Did for 25 years or so anyway.

But the thing that transformed the boat , a compromise , was a fold down spray dodger with enough drift aft that you could sit under it outside. I went to a lot of trouble to get that to fold flat and be as inconspicuous as possible when it was down.

Any chance that you'd have some pics of that spray dodger both up and down JB? Not as a thread drift but to get a bit of an image of how it complements the more open hatch for the standing room inside that it provides.

[John B]

I don't seem to have any good ones... this is a lazy drop without 'furling' it up. We just had bungees on the tails and we'd have the thing down in a second for most sailing.



but the point is, I see so many dodgers that barely come flush with the back cabin bulkhead coaming and all that does is sheild from spray. Make one that covers about 18 inches of seating and you can sit out in the rain.

The other aspect of a dodger is that it makes the cabin incredibly quiet relative to a closed hatch. It can be howling 25 knots at anchor and be quite subdued down below.

one up.



.. a better one..



..
it'd take all of about 2 minutes to take the whole thing off for classic racing events and the like.

[Larks]

Thanks John.

[PeterSibley]

Thanks John ,I think ACB would be interested in those shots .

[John B]

Another oldie but with the skylight cocked up.


Little things like that and the big hatch and cooking under the dodger when it rained made life quite habitable, until the sprogs grew.
...

[johnno]

That's terrific John..really good point about the extra overhang. It would also greatly assist in keeping things dry below when it rained I imagine. Not that it ever seems to be raining in your photos .

[Gerarddm]

The Stonehorse seats are pretty comfy when I sat in McMullen's boat. Have never sailed it though, James will have to chime in.

[hokiefan]

Wow John B, that is one beautiful boat. Amazing even.

Cheers,

Bobby

[zauberberg]

How many cruise happily without full headroom?

We do. My boat is a wooden Romilly with a slightly elongated cabin, or better a cuddy. The cabin hatch is cut deeply into the roof so that you can stand inside on the small and only piece floor between the two berths. The cabin just has sitting height and beside a V-berth, some shelves and some small locker space there is nothing within the cabin. Nevertheless we cruise, sometimes with 2 adults and 2 children.

I think this works because we are cruising in summertime in Greece: The weather is always nice and warm and life is taking place outside. The boat has a big cockpit and this is where 95% of all activities happen. Inside space is used mainly as dry storage space, as a place where someone can take a nap during the day and to sleep two at night. If we are cooking it is done in the cockpit with a portable paraffin stove, sitting at the table, the stove being placed on the motor box.

I could not imagine doing the same program in colder weather, perhaps also with rain. Unimaginable how to handle wet foul weather gear or how to keep the cuddy dry. But probably this mainly comes from the small space of the cuddy, and not primarily from the missing standing headroom. Obviously those two parameters are somehow linked - I could nevertheless imaging happy cruising for a longer period in wet weather even without full headroom, a well organized and definitely bigger cabin than Romilly's presumed.

[PeterSibley]

Thanks Thomas ... that is a beautiful place to cruise !

I agree with you regarding good and bad weather, anything seems satisfactory when it is warm and dry but in the cold and wet we suddenly become far more selective!

[JimConlin]

Another designer who's conscious of the necessities.


This from Sailing Anarchy re the new

Seascape 27

[gilberj]

Our aim is to keep this boat clean. Your aim will help !!!!!!

[Crazer]

This thread is interesting to me as I plan to cruise to the Bahamas this fall in a boat that lacks standing headroom. I actually own two boats, one with standing headroom and one without. The one without is the one that's in the water because that's the one I can afford to maintain and restore. Gets pretty simple when you look at it from that perspective. As has been pointed out, headroom=bigger boat=more cost. Choose the boat you want, but make sure you know what you can afford.

[Thad]

For the Bahamas maybe consider draft before head room. A good bimini/awning might be in order.

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

Our aim is to keep this boat clean. Your aim will help !!!!!!

And given that he can't see what he's doing, he'd need a pretty good aim, too....

[RFNK]

And given that he can't see what he's doing, he'd need a pretty good aim, too....

Oh, I just figured that aliens must just have long, skinny ones.

Rick

[PeterSibley]

There are times to sit down on the job.

[johnno]

Our aim is to keep this boat clean. Your aim will help !!!!!!

In Aus, that's known as a dingo's breakfast...namely, a pee and a quick look around!

[St.J]

Peter,
I spent a couple of days on the (no standing headroom) boat last week and wrote notes for this thread as I went. Here they are largely unedited, except for the cursing and blaspheming:


Putting the sprayhood (dodger) up on the mooring didn't help because the boat is tide-rode and the wind is from astern driving the rain down the companionway.
Had to sit down to take oilies off.
Duvet (in the forepeak bunk) got damp taking off oilies.
I got damp taking off oilies.

Hard to hang sallopettes to dry without standing headroom.

Decision: pee standing up in the companionway (no jokes about peeing in a bucket rather than the companionway please) and get wet or one of the other options (and possibly get wet, but let's not go there). I opted for a bracing face full of rain.

If I were rebuilding the inside of my boat I would: have one really comfortable seat from which I can reach as much as possible, have an adjustable backrest, make the hatch wider and longer, not bother with bench seats on both sides, have more storage, make the boat narrower?

No standing headroom is fine when you're asleep. Better in many ways - less windage to blow the boat around.

Hunched in the morning. June mornings are bloody cold in the UK! Dressed for breakfast to cook in the cockpit so that I can stand.

Leaving the mooring (with crew, thanks Dad) low coach roof makes it much easier to thread my way between the moorings.

Lunch on the (different) mooring was warm and sunny and very pleasant. In nice weather you're on deck and standing headroom below is irrelevant.

On the second morning aboard I always wake with knots either side of my vertebra prominens. They're impossible to shift if I can't stand up and stretch.

On reflection most of my problems with a lack of standing headroom come from the weather. If it's warm and dry then a Bimini is far more important than standing headroom below. If you sail in damp climes then standing headroom (or the luxury of a pilothouse) make a huge difference to your comfort.
The advantages of a lower coach roof and less windage when sailing shouldn't be underestimated. Just to convince myself of this I rowed around a Fisher 25, a boat that's only 3' longer than mine but dwarfs it in terms freeboard and windage. As nice as a pilothouse might be it's not for me in a small boat. After all - if it doesn't sail well, what's the point?

If I were building a boat for (mostly) single-handed cruising without standing headroom I'd spend a lot of time playing with interior arrangements to get one really comfortable seat from which you can reach most of the "galley".

I think reading Roger Taylor's books and blog is time well spent. It's a amazing how much time he spends sat on the sole of a 22' Corribee.

St.John

[skaraborgcraft]

I have only had standing headroom everywhere on ONE of my yachts,the rest was cricked neck or sit down. I never found it a problem. I lived and cruised on a boat with less room than the Lymington 23, and found there was plenty of space for stores and water to go transatlantic. At least one L23 has crossed from the UK -Carribbean and back to UK. I dont know why you say there is not enough storage,unless of course you are intending to stay offshore for more than 6 weeks at a time?

[G.Sherman]

That design certainly takes a great deal of self confidence to successfully complete- especially for some of our more
mature mariners.

Major rethink?

[John B]

Heh heh heh.

[Jay Greer]

I have lived for so many years on boats that have only had 3/4 head room that I really am a bit uncomfortable on boats that have full headroom. I find that, when the wind pipes up and I am on a boat that has loads of room overhead that I still find myself in a crouch, grabbing places to hold on or wedge myself into anyway. Older designs such as the Alden Schooners always have sailing off shore in mind and provide adequate hand holds for the crew below. I did some extended cruising and racing on a Cal 246 during the ninties and found that when I was in the main salon and the weather was snotty, one could be launched from one side of the cabin to the other often, with painful results! As L. Francis Herreshoff once said of his boats that have less than full headroom, "I find that, when I am below, I either want to lay down or sit down!" Neither of these functions require full head room. I do like a sliding hatch over the galley that can be rigged with a dodger in brisk weather. This allows me to stand up when cooking or mixing drinks. I do have snap rings for a sea harness if needed.
Jay

[Jay Greer]

That design certainly takes a great deal of self confidence to successfully complete- especially for some of our more
mature mariners.

Major rethink?

The plastic relief jug is often a blessing; especially in heavy weather when the lee shrouds are awash!
Jay

[Breakaway]

Yeah--when its rough, or in small boat in chop, hitting the target aint easy no matter what your age.Use the jug.

Kevin

[Woxbox]

I know at least one ship that has a hard and fast rule: men sit, always. The simple fact is that when you live at a 10 degree heel for a time, that becomes normal, and the fact that gravity has shifted 10 degrees off center seems completely abnormal. Or, you couldn't play table tennis on a pitching ship, so why should the trajectory of anything else be predictable?

[gilberj]

St J above in #77 is quite right. The weather is a particular qualifying factor. Wind, rain, heavy spray make life in a small space much more difficult. Living on Whimbrel in a period of inclement weather is a bit of a trial. Most of the time I actually do not mind. It is all part of the adventure. How I manage my resources and life functions are part of the challenge. Eventually it can become tiresome. Having said that I have cruised 4 seasons here in BC waters in small traditional cruising sailboats.
Whimbrel has a rather long cabin which allow a reasonable separation between the berth(s) (forward) and the companionway. You come down and close the hatch, and peel of the oilies and hang them in the corner to drain and perhaps dry. Then you grab a handy rag and wipe the floor (cabin sole). The dry fuel heater is a real bonus (Tiny Tot).
The comment above with regards to a comfortable seat is an important one. Several LFH designs included that detail. Rozinante and the 21 Cat Yawl in my experience. I remember my Dad (sitting on the berth) and Bob Todd (sitting in the comfortable hammock seat) on "Phalarope" (Rozinante) repairing below for a shot or two of scotch, leaving me at the helm at ~15 years with the wind blowing 25 gusting 35 and 6 to 10 foot seas, a November passage from Wiarton to Meaford on Georgian Bay in Ontario.

[RFNK]

Too much information now in this thread!

Rick

[cookie]

Too much information now in this thread!

Rick

And I'll add a little more

Last summer I did a couple of trips with me mate's 26 feet of frozen snot. Lack of headroom did not bother me and I am 6'3".
What I did find annoying though was the lack of view to the outside world. Being inside felt like being in a isolation cell (one of them old fashioned small ones that you see in movies).
Being in Oz, you probably don't need to be inside much, so it might be be less of an issue for you.

[John B]

I made a slightly bigger than normal main hatch so you could stand at the galley, and gave my butterfly skylight an extra inch of coaming to sit on, and then hinged it at the front. That way we could get a place to stand in the middle of the boat to stretch if needed. Did for 25 years or so anyway.



But the thing that transformed the boat , a compromise , was a fold down spray dodger with enough drift aft that you could sit under it outside. I went to a lot of trouble to get that to fold flat and be as inconspicuous as possible when it was down.

Just came across this sketch to describe the skylight modification I made.


...

[PeterSibley]

I seem to have fumbled my way to a choice , Harrison Butler's Vindilis / Davinka. 30'O"A , 22'6" WL and about 5'10 " of headroom . Lovely too! Very similar to my earlier favourite , HB's "Englyn" but with a very pleasant counter added.

The only slow part now is getting hold of the plans ...a slow and pains taking process .

[Larks]

Peter, she is drop dead gorgeous!! Are there any rig options? Gaff?

You know we'll now be keeping the pressure on you to get a keel down and get on with it don't you!!!???

[PeterSibley]

She's rigged as a yawl Greg but various owners seem to have dropped the mizzen, still Bermudian though, no other options drawn. I usually automatically go for a gaff rig but that one looks so good I'd be tempted to leave well enough alone............ maybe.

The Harrison Butler Assn is in a bit of disarray at the moment and attempting collate their various paper plans after the recent death of their President. I'm attempting to buy plans at the moment but it is a slow process, patience is required. The first thing to ascertain is the keel dimension, it's very wide, probably 350mm x 150mm. I have a nice stick here from my previous attempts but it's only 225mm wide and will like go into stem and stern assemblies.I could modify the drawing but that doesn't seem the right way to go. I'm currently asking the HBA to find the correct dimension so I can have it cut .

The Uki mill has a log at the moment that will saw 350mm x 150mm, but it will go into other jobs soon and it may be a while until the next big one arrives.

$1800 ...not cheap but pretty rare too.

[Phil Y]

Hi Peter. My dad built his boat in 1972. 23' gaff sloop. 8' beam. She has a surprising amount of volume inside for such a small boat. No standing head room. When I was 12 we shipped her to tonga and spent 6 months, mum, dad, 2 kids, sailing through the eastern fijian islands. As a family we've done countless weekend and week or two cruises in south australian waters. Dad still sails her regularly down in tassie and finds her perfectly adequate for a week or two. You sit on a berth to use the galley. generally sitting on the bunks is fine. She doesn't have the under deck sitting headroom that greg is trying to achieve. You either sit up,head in the cabin space without back support, or you lie down. It is kind of possible to slouch down and recline against the side of the boat. There are no backrests, just the hull-ribs and planks. You get used to the rivets in your back! She's small, but cosy, secure and a nice place to be. Did the Pardey's have standing head room? I don't recall. I think you get used to the space you have.

[PeterSibley]

Do you like the Vindilis design I posted above Phil? She has headroom, just as did Pardey's Serrafyn but only for people like me ...I'm 5'7" so full headroom for me is nothing special !
There are other boats in the same series as Vindilis , all 22'6" wl. They look nicely proportioned at that, with 25' oa without the counter.

I used to sail on a 23' Randel design as a young bloke , a very nice like boat about he size you describe from your boyhood , her owner sailed her up to the Solomons from Brisbane , but I've decided that just a little more volume and a cunning design will solve the problem or full headroom and and pretty design!

[Phil Y]

I don't really see any point in the counter stern, unless you make a hole thru it and use it as a crapper. The key to dad's boat, and the Pardeys is the beam. 8' beam on a 23 foot boat is quite a bit, and I think the pardeys was maybe close to 9'. It makes a huge difference to usable space. You really don't need headroom-and in fact often its a bit of a trap-you end up forgetting the limits and banging your head a lot.

[PeterSibley]

This one is 8'6" ,so midway . The counter is just cos it's beautiful!

[Howard Rice]

I do.

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[Capt Zatarra]

For the last month, I have been reading, as 99% of the responses say that would/have cruise/d HAPPILY without headroom. With the exception of St. John who outlined a number of really good reason that no one commented on. So I thought that I would wade in to the foray and add my thoughts. I had originally reframed from commenting, because I have cruised 'with' headroom for over six years from the Puget Sound to Panama. And the PO ask about sailors without headroom. But in my defense for posting, I have sailed with other boats that did not have headroom and the owners of those boats spent many an evening at anchor on my boat cooking, eating, drinking, playing games, talking late into the night, generally having a good time. On several occasions I would suggest that the next night we should have dinner on their boat. This was always met with derision and comments like "We can't even stand up in our boat how would we get everyone here in side." Being able to cook and intertain at the same time is a big part of sharing the cruising lifestyle with sailors we meet along the way. We sometimes have three people crammed shoulder to shoulder and back to back in the galley, each person working on some portion of the upcoming feast. It is ridiculously crowded but we were standing up and we were having more fun then is legal in most countries. We met several couples who after cruising for about six months or so in their sleek, fast, totally beautiful Aldins and LHF raceing sloops, they turned around and went back to California to sell their boat and buy a boat more suited for comfort while cruising, the #1 reason was the ability to stand up and move around. It is one thing for a single hander to move around hunched over, but when there are two or more people one must always sit down while the other goes by. That quickly becomes serious pain in the batucuos. I mentioned this thread to my wife and ask her how many of the wifes who lived on headroomless boats liked their situation. She was very emphatic when she responded "ZERO" Many of the wifes said that they could put up with the no headroom for a few years or so becuase they knew that it would end someday. On the other hand those who were sailing open ended all had standing headroom. So that is all I have to say about that. Capt. Zatarra

[PeterSibley]

Thank you sir, as I'm planning a build I have come to the conclusion that a very small increase in displacement over the minimal will give headroom but also considerable extra capacity for water and stores . My choice is illustrated in post 89.

[gilberj]

I think Captain Zatarra, that you are referring to pincipally offshore sailing/cruising. When the length of the cruise is extended, a lot of folks here will agree that more room is better, "standing" and the "room to swing a cat" sort. A 40 odd footer is better,and more comfortable than a 25 footer.
Most of us are recreational sailors and have limits of time and often money to invest in our cruising dream. I can afford more boat than I am currently sailing. I would have trouble justifying it to either me or my other half to have a lot more money invested in something I/We do not get to use anywhere nearly enough.
Sitting /crouching headroom is just fine. My partner is in complete agreement. The additional investment to get usable headroom is simply not worth it just now. If I wanted to do an offshore passage my current boat is up to snuff, stability, water-tightness, and general fittness

[Capt Zatarra]

Peter it is a very lovely boat. I agree with Larks that it would be great if it could be rigged as a gaff. Lower the COE to get more power with less heel. Plus they just look fantastic. Also I like your idea for large water tanks. The peace of mind that I have plenty of water has been something that I would not trade for anything. Capt. Z.