A sail and human power boat for the great loop

[Tom Lathrop]

John,

It takes an effort for me to remember to take photos and I have not succumbed to the cell phone age yet. If I had one of those things strapped to my belt instead of my trusty knife, maybe there would be more interesting photos of the wierd or interesting boats that come through. In the meantime, Kieth and Melinda do a terrific job with www.towndock.net. A story of the adventurer of this thread should show up there soon.

[Alan H]

I'm thinking that open boat for a year-plus, mostly weekly stops sounds pretty miserable. However, having a fixed keel is probably not going to work either.

If you're going to row it, well....there are limitations.

So I'm thinking that Nancys China in the centerboard version might be a good way to go for this one. I might add a 100 pound lead bulb to the bottom of the board.





I'd probably put the mast on a tabernacle so as to be able to drop it pretty darned quickly.

[Chris Ostlind]

It's great that a bunch of trad boat proponents have gotten all excited about the topic here. I wonder how the team of Ben and Emily Algera would do using their XCR?

[potomac]

Could something like what Kees Prins did to his Fulmar Fetch be done to an optimized sail/ row design like the Sooty Tern? I imagine some adjustments would have to be made with that weight forward, but I'm guessing Tom is looking at a new design anyway. It seems, admitting up front that this is a boat for one really allows you to design the cabin and cockpit efficiently.

[Alan H]

But Chris, it's not a race. That wasn't in the design brief.

Now, if it WAS a race, you'd have a very good point.

[Chris Ostlind]

Quite right... not a race. I'm just looking at human nature and that desire we keep expressing regarding the pushing of limits. Pardon my wandering.

[kenjamin]

Yo Chris, how about a picture or a link to said boat. What is it? Mostly carbon fiber?

[Chris Ostlind]

Nope, nothing trick like carbon or Kevlar. Just a composite, glass sandwich build with a wooden core. it's all in the overall utility of the design and its ability to function efficiently in a wide variety of conditions.

[kenjamin]

So are you talking about the single hull version or the trimaran for this brief? Can you row the trimaran?

[Woxbox]

Quick I'm sure. But comfortable enough to live aboard months on end? This is why Mbuli came to my mind. A light, skinny multi that still offers an enclosed cabin. Mbuli may not win a race against the XCR, but I'm sure I'd find the ride much more pleasurable.

[potomac]

Sometimes I think it's funny how much attention we pay to how "fast" a sail and oar boat is. The idea is a little comical. If you want to do it fast, strap on a motor. If you want to do it really fast, just drive. Or fly for that matter. This seems a case of doing it is the thing, achieving it, not doing it fast. Besides, Tom's already designed the boat to do it fast (with motor).

[Woxbox]

Speed is always relative. But it is nice to outpace the tidal current.

[potomac]

Even tidal current is relative.

[Tom Lathrop]

I have no problem with multihulls and one of the early suggestions was Alan Stewart's Mosquito tri of the Round Florida race. I do have a problem with the idea that either multis or monos are inherently superior to the other. I suspect that a multi would need one of the leg powered options for the long human powered stretches. Hobie Magic or prop drive or whatever. I saw the fish tail thing once and was underwhelmed. Still, its not a race and the boat is what ever suits the skills and inclinations of the pilot. Most seem to favor rowing but I don't think I could accept going backwards all the time and the forward facing rowing options look complicated for a boat that needs to sail. With appologies to Sam Devlin, I don't think most could face trying to propel Nancy's China up the ditch either. Some kind of shelter would be nice although I would favor a folding fabric cover for the low windage when that could be a real advantage over a fixed one.

[James McMullen]

In my experience, people who genuinely, actually, regularly go sail and oar cruising without any engine for any sort of distance are very few and far between. In fact I know all three of the other guys who live in Washington State who do it.

But an awful lot of people find it an interesting subject to talk about. I think that's great! More people should experience the immersive and rewarding experience of relying on your own wits and resources rather than on twisting a throttle. It's as different as driving your car through an artificial Safari Park versus actually hiking the PCT with a pack on your back. Or like skiing at a managed ski-resort with chairlifts and groomed runs versus heading into the backcountry. Going as fast as possible or with the highest tech, expensive gadgetry isn't the point--it's doing it by your own skill and determination that is most enriching and fulfilling.

I have to agree with Terry that the ICW seems like a dreadful place to practice this esoteric art though. For the same amount of time and money invested, you could go somewhere where you'd encounter a hell of a lot less powerboat wakes, noise and pollution. Fewer biting insects too.

[jsjpd1]

Having tent sort of like the walkabout design on my Caledonia yawl, I got a say I really like the idea of a fold down dodger that is permanent attached to the boat and can be flipped up or down in about ten seconds. Setting the tent up isn't a big deal but it does get old after awhile.

And just for the record I have never even come close to dipping the rail during a tack, gybe, or on any point of sail.

Maybe I should try harder.

Jim

[Chris Ostlind]

Kellan Hatch has been tinkering around some with a rowing setup for his XCR. I suspect that it is fairly easily driven in this mode. I don't know if he has worked out a design solution for doing it with the amas affixed in the transport location closer to the vaka hull. There have been a couple of nicely designed rowng trimarans, such as the boat designed by Jim Antrim http://www.antrimdesign.com/rowing/MultihullRowing.html and by Kurt Hughes http://multihullblog.com/page/2/

[Chris Ostlind]

The speed potential for any kind of vehicle is an interesting consideration. It figures into all sorts of realities when one looks at the issues present for moving about. It's a nice feature to have when one needs to apply it, but if it's not there, then you don't get the option. I prefer to diddle along comfortably, myself, but there are always going to be times when the potential is nice to call upon to solve certain tasks... and then there's our human nature to absorb when it comes to two boats traveling in the same general direction.

[Tom Lathrop]

I have to agree with Terry that the ICW seems like a dreadful place to practice this esoteric art though. For the same amount of time and money invested, you could go somewhere where you'd encounter a hell of a lot less powerboat wakes, noise and pollution. Fewer biting insects too.

James,

The San Juans and the Inside Passage are great cruising areas and I've been to both. Your tirade against my home waters are a fine example if self inflicted ignorance though. Fear of heavy traffic is restricted to only a few areas and mostly you will be alone on the water, winding your way through salt marshes that are pristine and beautiful in their own right. Dug canals may be less scenic but have their own challenges. Open water passages will be great for sailing and winds are reported to be better than in the PNW. Some currents but not the speedy kind that you have to plan your time around. Its a great country that my wife and I have had the pleasure of visiting every part of. We have no snow capped peaks in the background but there are other compensations.

[James McMullen]

Tom, I apologize if I have offended you. I freely admit that the only thing I know about the ICW is what I have heard from others, or from the pictures they have posted. But alas, they all seem to look like this:





But if there are also scenic parts, then I wish you joy of them. To each cat their own rat.

[keyhavenpotterer]

A very experienced canoe sailor has made his choice of craft to attempt to sail around mainland UK. He is setting off tomorrow! You can follow his journey here http://www.facebook.com/CanoeSailor

His chosen craft is a development of Solway Dory's Shearwater sailing canoe with outriggers. These stay out of the water for almost all the time except when needed. Gavin will paddle sail in light winds. Sleep aboard with a cockpit tent on occasions. Here's a video of Gavin sailing his new boat just after collecting her from the builders.

Gavin is a very experienced yachtsman and canoe sailor and believes his craft is the finest single handed adventure craft available today. I have owned and sailed one of these and am inclined to agree with him.



Brian

[jalmberg]

Gavin and Stacey... I get it!

Going around the UK is a different kettle of fish. Plenty of wind (!), they don't build on every square inch of waterfront, and pubs for when the going gets tough.

It raises a good point though... In a small, beachable boat, you might do better 'outside' on the east coast of the US. Beach camping on the ocean would have many advantages: shorter route, more wind, less traffic, and more places to camp.

In the summer, you rarely get stretches of bad weather, and you could stick close to shore if a black cloud appears on the horizon.

Add a sail to something like this, and you might have a winner:



* cabin
* sliding seat rowing
* dry storage

Just need a sail and a leeboard, and a solar panel to charge your iPad.

Love the bridge deck!

[kenjamin]

As someone born and raised in Florida you'd think that I would be used to the bugs but I still hate them. Fortunately they're only really bad during the summer months but yeah sometimes that's six months out of the year. However, I would like to report that my very best sail aboard Xena was on the Intercoastal Waterway just South of St. Augustine. An attractive lady friend and I had a perfect sail with a good steady East wind all the way down to Crescent Beach and back. I didn't need the jib so she got to lounge on the forward seat without any disturbances. It was during the week so no boat traffic that I remember – just a very enjoyable board reach at a good clip all the way down and back again. Since she figured out that I wasn't deacon in the church material, the relationship was fairly short lived but that sail was a great day worth remembering for me and Xena. I think my lady friend thoroughly enjoyed herself as well.

[Tom Lathrop]

Tom, I apologize if I have offended you. I freely admit that the only thing I know about the ICW is what I have heard from others, or from the pictures they have posted. But alas, they all seem to look like this:

James,

I am not offended. I was just trying to get your attention. My chosen spot is loaded with comeheres (local name for people like me) from everywhere, including the PNW. The first photo is in the Miami, Ft Lauderdale area at a busy time and the second is following a lock opening probably also in a busy area and time. The last one looks like a gathering of party types on the water that could be anywhere. I have only encountered that much traffic on a weekend on the Trent Severn in Ontario, which quickly loosened up following the lock opening. Rising sea level will get most of us soon enough, especially around here.

[potomac]

The section of the ICW where I spend the better part of my leisure time contains a labyrinthine network of tidal flats, ponds, marshes and salt creeks. Bald eagles nest here and can be seen regularly perched atop beached driftwood. Osprey, herons, egrets and any manner of waterbird live here year-round, hunting and fishing with enough grace and efficiency so as to inspire stunned silence no matter how many times you have seen them before. I have not once been on this water when a pod of dolphins did not break the surface for a quick breath as they fished the same waters I did. There are manatees and sea turtles there. White sand beaches dot islands no man/ everyman owns and cabbage palms provide shade. Clams, oysters, and shrimp can be had. The finest inshore table fish available, flounder, sea trout, and redfish are all abundant. Three crab pots left out overnight in the same shallow pond will yield more blue crab than a half dozen diners can eat.

I have not been to the PNW and can not speak intelligently about it, though her beauty is almost legend. Perhaps when my boy is older. And my perception is probably colored by a recent decade in our country's biggest city, whose waterways inspire more the use of the imagination than the eye where beauty is concerned. But this place, in it's own way, is as lovely as any I have ever been. I feel her beauty rise up inside me with each rising tide. I am no less for that tide's falling.

One of the reasons this area is so wonderful is her shallowness. Often these waters are no more than a foot or two deep and most boats cannot get there or their skippers are unwilling to do the work. For my part, I must cut the engine, lift it, and pole in and about, though winds and tides often necessitate hopping off the boat to push my son and girlfriend along the shallows. I am glad for this work and know that that increased effort means more privacy as I slip into this secret wonderland of flora, fauna, salt, sea and sand. Because of what I know of this place and in the hopes that I would find another of similar beauty, were this my boat and were it my trip, gunkholing would be of prime importance in her design brief.

[James McMullen]

If a local who knew the area could protect me from having to endure the frightful horrorshow of powerboats in these pictures above by knowing when and where to go, I'd love to be educated past my ignorance some day. Beyond the reach and out of earshot, I beg.

But I do have it on good authority that you're supposed to get a blood transfusion beforehand and be a couple of quarts ahead before the skeeters and deerflies and chiggers and horseflies and biting midges and black flies and ticks notice you and start running you at a deficit.

[JimD]

I'm thinking that open boat for a year-plus, mostly weekly stops sounds pretty miserable. However, having a fixed keel is probably not going to work either.

If you're going to row it, well....there are limitations.

So I'm thinking that Nancys China in the centerboard version might be a good way to go for this one. I might add a 100 pound lead bulb to the bottom of the board.





I'd probably put the mast on a tabernacle so as to be able to drop it pretty darned quickly.

I have a boat very similar in size and concept to Nancy's China, a Glen-L Minuet. Its fitted with oar locks but I would not want to have to row it more than a hundred yards in an emergency and I can't imagine Nancy's China fairing much better. Definitely a sail/motor sort of boat. I don't think any of these types of stout pocket cruisers are suitable for rowing. But for a single person just about right for very basic camp cruising. I did, however, decide the cabin was more trouble than it was worth and so cut it off. The boat now looks like this. Better one might claim, than a standard open boat arragement because the cabin area is separated from a self bailing cockpit by a bridge deck. So a tent over the cabin area makes for very dry and protected quarters.

[Yeadon]

Do the Indian River Lagoon.

Start in Stuart, head north past Fort Pierce, Vero Beach, Sebastian, then go cruising past Melbourne and go north until Titusville or the Banana River. You'd have a great time. Lots of little islands, inlets and lagoons.

Lots of great restaurants along the way. Good fishing, too. I did this trip a couple times in the late 90s when I lived in Florida.

[jalmberg]

James,

I am not offended. I was just trying to get your attention. My chosen spot is loaded with comeheres (local name for people like me) from everywhere, including the PNW. The first photo is in the Miami, Ft Lauderdale area at a busy time and the second is following a lock opening probably also in a busy area and time. The last one looks like a gathering of party types on the water that could be anywhere. I have only encountered that much traffic on a weekend on the Trent Severn in Ontario, which quickly loosened up following the lock opening. Rising sea level will get most of us soon enough, especially around here.

I'll confirm, this. You can go hours on the ICW in some places without seeing another boat, during the week. Weekends in some spots are murder, but the worst spots are mainly on the Florida SE coast.

Also, going through Norfolk is 'interesting'... the ICW goes right through a major US Naval base. If you get through Norfolk, NY Harbor will be a snap, except for the high-speed ferries, but they follow pretty well-defined routes and there is plenty of room to stay away from them.

Typical views, all taken by me:

















The last one is a view of 'infamous' Hell Gate, right in the middle of NYC. I didn't pass another boat on the East River.

[sailoar]

Potomac, thanks for that poetic reverie. That's what life's all about.

[Woxbox]

This guy didn't do too badly in a little sailboat. I wonder what boat he would select if alive today.

when I planned my second voyage from northern America to the Gulf of Mexico, and selected the great water-courses of the west and south (the Ohio and
Mississippi rivers) as the route to be explored and studied, I chose the Barnegat sneak-box as the most comfortable model combined with other advantages for a voyager's use. The sneak-box offered ample stowage capacity, while canoes built to hold one person were not large enough to carry the amount of baggage necessary for the voyage; for I was to avoid hotels and towns, to live in my boat day and night, to carry an ample stock of provisions, and to travel in as comfortable a manner as possible. In fact, I adopted a very home-like boat, which, though only twelve feet long, four feet wide, and thirteen inches deep, was strong, stiff, dry, and safe; a craft that could be sailed or rowed, as wind, weather, or inclination might dictate,--the weight of which hardly exceeded two hundred pounds,--and could be conveniently transported from one stream to another in an ordinary wagon.

[kenjamin]

If a local who knew the area could protect me from having to endure the frightful horrorshow of powerboats in these pictures above by knowing when and where to go, I'd love to be educated past my ignorance some day. Beyond the reach and out of earshot, I beg.

But I do have it on good authority that you're supposed to get a blood transfusion beforehand and be a couple of quarts ahead before the skeeters and deerflies and chiggers and horseflies and biting midges and black flies and ticks notice you and start running you at a deficit.

You only need to forget about going out on Saturday or Sunday and you will be fine.

As for the bugs, they've got things now that you can clip on your belt now that's supposed to work pretty well. And you forgot to mention the worst of all bugs: the "no-see-ems". These are tiny knats that are so small that you can't even see them and they eat you up before you even realize it. Most intelligent life in Florida is prepared to do battle with the critters. Avon's "Skin-so-soft" was always one of the most pleasant ways of defending oneself.

I met a guy at a Halloween party one time who had covered himself in Spanish Moss as his costume. Evidently he didn't know that's where chiggers love to live. I can't imagine what that guy went through in the following days. It must have been hell.

Yeah, one has to be prepared but they are normally really bad early morning or evening. One quickly learns how to deal with them. Don't let that stop you from coming to Florida, comrade. Remember there's no bugs when every once in a while it's cold.

[James McMullen]

. . . you forgot to mention the worst of all bugs. . .

I'm sure I did. Because, in fact I never, ever have to deal with them. We don't have any of those here next to the Salish Sea. You have to go inland for a ways to find even a simple mosquito. I think that's why I have such a fascinated horror with these places that are 50% bloodsucking parasite by volume--I have no built-up tolerance at all.

[potomac]

I'm sure I did. Because, in fact I never, ever have to deal with them. We don't have any of those here next to the Salish Sea. You have to go inland for a ways to find even a simple mosquito. I think that's why I have such a fascinated horror with these places that are 50% bloodsucking parasite by volume--I have no built-up tolerance at all.

Well, its official then, James- you live in paradise. I retract everything I said above.

[JimD]

Well, its official then, James- you live in paradise. I retract everything I said above.

I was amazed at the lack of mosquitoes when we moved to the PNW. There are a few, but so few it comes as a complete surprise when you encounter one. No black flies either. Boating and camping ashore is virtually bug free.

[Tom Lathrop]

I was amazed at the lack of mosquitoes when we moved to the PNW. There are a few, but so few it comes as a complete surprise when you encounter one. No black flies either. Boating and camping ashore is virtually bug free.

The PNW is not unique in the lack of insects. We spent 10 years living in north Atlanta and had the same experience at home and sailing on Lake Lanier. That is in the deep South, much to James's chagrin.

[James McMullen]

Well, its official then, James- you live in paradise.

That's what I keep trying to tell you people!

The PNW is not unique in the lack of insects. We spent 10 years living in north Atlanta and had the same experience at home and sailing on Lake Lanier. That is in the deep South, much to James's chagrin.

Yes, but does Lake Lanier have an official ban on jetskis like the entirety of San Juan County? Nope.
Checkmate!

[potomac]

To James',"For each cat, his rat," I would add, "And to each cat, his lap (with someone scratching behind his ears and feeding him liver treats)"

[Tom Lathrop]

No one ever wins a flame war and so I just don't participate.

[Chris Ostlind]

The PNW is not unique in the lack of insects. We spent 10 years living in north Atlanta and had the same experience at home and sailing on Lake Lanier. That is in the deep South, much to James's chagrin.

Is this because of the altitude around Atlanta? I ask because I spent an entire first year in the Army, stationed in Anniston, Alabama, Columbus, Georgia and Augusta, Georgia and bugs ruled the joint at pretty much all times of the year, but especially so in all the warmer months. Augusta in July/August is an insect experiment gone wild. The red dirt is delightful, as well.

[DGentry]

That's what I keep trying to tell you people!

Now James, to be fair, you have to mention that it rains there, almost daily, in every month of the year except August and September. And that your engine free cruises are at the dictatorial mercy of the tidal race. And that, in summer, every harbor in San Juan county is at least as crowded with powerboats, etc as in those pics you showed!

I've only read most of this thread, but it seems that one is unlikely to find a suitable boat that fits all the needs of trek like this. So, each person has to choose what is most important to them - seaworthiness, speed under sail, speed under human power, comfort, etc - amongst the various craft that may or may not be suitable.
Personally, I want to live through big water crossings, and I want the wind to do most (or all!) of the work and I want to be comfortable for those many months*. Necessarily, that is going to dictate a different boat than someone who is mostly interested in rowing or paddling the loop. There are a lot of factors to consider, and everyone is going to weigh them differently.

*Without giving it a whole lot of consideration, I'd likely opt for a TFJ Night Heron tri, with a yuloh off the back if I needed to scull into an anchorage or get some exercise. Seaworthy in a gale, sails great and fast, shallow draft, and with considerably more comfort and convenience than any sort of backpacking style tent. Likely more boat than most are considering, but not much heavier than some.

[James McMullen]

Well you're right of course, Dave. It rained monday and tuesday, and it's supposed to rain on thursday and some on friday too. And the tidal races are totally merciless! We pegged 12 kts over the bottom NB in Rosario Straits off of Allen Island on Monday, and this in a 25' waterline boat! Also the slugs are bigger than is strictly necessary, I'd say.

[kenjamin]

...
I've only read most of this thread, but it seems that one is unlikely to find a suitable boat that fits all the needs of trek like this. So, each person has to choose what is most important to them - seaworthiness, speed under sail, speed under human power, comfort, etc - amongst the various craft that may or may not be suitable.
Personally, I want to live through big water crossings, and I want the wind to do most (or all!) of the work and I want to be comfortable for those many months*. Necessarily, that is going to dictate a different boat than someone who is mostly interested in rowing or paddling the loop. There are a lot of factors to consider, and everyone is going to weigh them differently....

Very well said, Dave. At last the voice of reason. A better question than what boat would be best may be "who would want to?" If one were to start out on the big loop with too small or too uncomfortable a boat, wouldn't they be kicking themselves for not using something bigger about half way down the Mississippi? Or the guy with too big a boat to row comfortably – wouldn't he or she be lusting after a Honda 2 HP? I mean the human power/sail trip on the loop has already been done, right? It's not like you're going to be the first person to do it and it's not like you're going to be saving the planet by not using the tiny bit of fuel that the 2 HP Honda would use. I find the thread interesting and entertaining but I find myself wondering more about what kind of person would want to do it rather than what kind of boat it would take to do it in. Personally, I think I could do the trip in my Caledonia Yawl but you'd have to find someone else to pay me twenty thousand dollars for the achievement.

[Chris Ostlind]

Then, there's this guy http://www.krugercanoes.com/news.htm I'll never do the stuff he did. Nor, do I want to. But, the respect is huge.

[JimD]

Now James, to be fair, you have to mention that it rains there, almost daily, in every month of the year except August and September.

Is that true on the American side? We are just a short hop to Vancouver Island and our summers, July and August, can be bone dry frequently to the point of water shortages. July is awesome on the Canadian side.

[JimD]

The PNW is not unique in the lack of insects. We spent 10 years living in north Atlanta and had the same experience at home and sailing on Lake Lanier. That is in the deep South, much to James's chagrin.

We breezed through Atlanta once driving to Florida. Some day I would like to make the trip again and have a proper look around. Bug free is always a bonus. The northern Canadian interior is horrendous for mosquitoes and black flies.

[jalmberg]

I think the main lesson from this thread is that committees make bad designers.

[Tom Lathrop]

I think the main lesson from this thread is that committees make bad designers.

That is a universal truth but it is possible to glean many good conclusions if you are receptive and alert. The same can be said of just about every thread on any forum. Most good designs, whether boats or other need either a good designer or a decisive leader if its to be a collaborative effort. I saw plenty evidence of that in both innovative and product engineering. Two people can usualy come to a meeting of minds but three or more is trouble.

[Yeadon]

That is a universal truth but it is possible to glean many good conclusions if you are receptive and alert. The same can be said of just about every thread on any forum. Most good designs, whether boats or other need either a good designer or a decisive leader if its to be a collaborative effort. I saw plenty evidence of that in both innovative and product engineering. Two people can usualy come to a meeting of minds but three or more is trouble.

Same with dogs playing in the backyard. Two is fine. Three and someone is gonna get teamed up on. Unless it's Bailey McMullen, in which case the other two will get the smackdown.

[rvanvoris]

There is another approach that I am taking on this thing.
I am planning to go round the loop in my 32' Friday Island Ferry that I am currently building.
My intention is to bring my single scull with me and row as often as weather and my own mood allow. Either my wife will bring the big boat down or I will do an out and back row. Either way I have a hot shower and a good meal eaten in relative comfort after my row.
Lots of good rows and my own bed at night, rather than some 2x7 floating coffin, but maybe at 59 I am just too old for that type of adventure.
Anyway this sounds like the best solution for me.