Quiet Tune vs. Araminta

[BradW]

I was reading Sensible Cruising Designs and was looking at the notes on Quiet Tune and Araminta commenting on their similarities (saying basically Araminta was Quiet Tune w/ a clipper bow. I've admired the Araminta for a long time as a goal or dream boat.

1. I've seldom seen the Quiet Tune design mentioned , esp. on the Web. I take it that there were few of them built?

2. Would the sailing differences be mostly driven by rig not the hull (I think Araminta has more sail area)? What are the sailing differences between the two?

3. Is one form easier to build than the other?

4. Is it entirely nuts to dream of a new-build Quiet Tune?

[rbgarr]

I think Ben Fuller skippered Quiet Tune for WoodenBoat School seamanship courses in years past. He may be able to make some intelligent comparisons between the two designs regarding performance. One is almost four feet longer than the other with a more than proportionately larger rig, and is therefore more expensive in time and materials to build... or have built. But it's only money!

[JimConlin]

Take test drives.

Mystic Seaport Museum has an Araminta for day charters , and I think the Quiet Tune that's used at WB School is also available for day charter in Maine.

They're both fall-in-love beautiful.

[gert]

what is this "Quiet Tune"?

[ 05-13-2005, 03:23 PM: Message edited by: gert ]

[BradW]

Originally posted by gert:
what is this "Quiet Tune"?

Yet another beautiful L.F. Herreshoff ketch. Picture from WoodenBoat School, as mentioned by Jim Conlin:

[RodB]

I know a sailor who sailed by an "Araminta" and was quite awestruck. He said he didn't recognize her in the water compared to the drawings he had seen in books but figured out what design she was later on. He said she was awesome in her beauty and grace. I would think either of these designs would be fantastic.

RB

[ 05-21-2005, 07:24 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[Rob Hazard]

A couple years ago I took the Ketch Course at WB School and got to spend a day on Quiet Tune. When I stepped aboard it felt like entering a temple. She's the original Quiet Tune, carefully restored at Mystic. All of Herreshoff's details are there, just like in the book!
A total thoroughbred, she sails like a dream, swift, with a lovely motion. If you ever get the chance, go see her. It's worth it!

I must admit I still like Rozinante better, though. Her cockpit is cozier in gray weather.

[RodB]

It would be interesting to see what design those who have sailed them would choose as their favorite...comparing Rozinante, Quite Time, Araminta, Neria, etc...

RB

[rbgarr]

ARION is the culmination of the Herreshoff design line of that type, and probably the most spectacular sailer.

http://www.dmcboats.com/takingshape.htm

[JimConlin]

When sailing in college, we sailed often at the Coast Guard Academy. By 1964 or so, Arion was in the 'fleet' there and visible to the visiting bumpkins walking the docks. I've stayed in love (polygamously) for forty years. Never could figure out why it didn't get repeated.

[RodB]

rbgarr

I appreciate her pedigree but I do think Araminta and Quiet Tune and Rozinante are a bit more appealing. I can't explain very well why, but I know what moves me visually. Maybe its just the photo the posted, I don't know.

RB

[ 05-13-2005, 11:57 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[rbgarr]

Sidney Herreshoff's designs had touches of Art Deco to them, while LFH's were more purely romantic, utilitarian or rugged, all in a good way. The former's style just appeals to me more.

[JamesCaird]

Gentlemen: I became aware of Quiet Tune back in the 70's. At the time I was "apprentice" in the yard where she was stored in winter. I lived nearby and over time gained experience on her locally. One summer owner, Jay Jenkins, said he was going to Africa for a month or two and the Quiet Tune would need some exercise. Exercise her I did and came to realize what a fantastic sailing machine she is-such a sense of joy she produces when you feel the power of her rig a she heels and the angles into a groove and just goes! However, she can be wet! Wedged into the back corner of the cockpit one has full view and control at your fingertips-the mizzen sheet is just behind you, the mainsheet right on the forward side of the mizzen mast and the jib sheets lead through a little turning block in the coaming to the winch on the after side of the mizzen mast. The sensation of speed and power and control is exhilerating. Her accomodations are spartan but sensible.
About that time around the yard the conversation would often go to "why don't we build a new QuietTune?" At the same time we were aware of Rozinante and "The Compleat Cruiser". No one had ever sailed one, there were only a few in existance at that time. I thought it made sense to build Rozinante to answer the questions-so I did. By comparison, Rozinante is also very elegant both to be in sailing and to behold. However, being lighter (6600# vs. 8000#) Rozinante with essentially the same rig does not have the power of form or momentum to carry through like Quiet Tune. All of the finest sensations and exhilaration of sailing come to be focused in the cockpit of Rozinante as well Quiet Tune. There is something to be said for the greater spaciousness of the open cockpit of Rozinante which must be balanced against the selfbailing cockpit of Quiet Tune.
I think I would have to say though that when cruising the Rozinante somehow seems to be more comfortable-you are always in the whole boat-even when "below" you can be in front of the stove, comfartable in and easy chair reading a book but still immediate to the cockpit and the outside world-they are contiguous.
As for Araminta I have no personal experience in her. She seems of course to be an evolution from Quiet Tune. Wouldn't we all love to have heard the conversations between LFH and Edwin Hill as they worked toward the idea of Araminta?
Arion is somewhere down the road toward what we Rozinante lovers all want when we look for the larger version. In ways she is a bit extreme. While visiting Nat B. and Ross G. I showed them some drawings I had of Arion......They said "She is too....everything! "Too deep, too narrow, too hard in the bilges, etc......." However, I knew where she was and ultimately Damian McLaughlin (who has been down this road) took on Arion and now she is there in her splendor again for us to see. She is remarkable and anyone who sails on her asks the same question: "Why aren't there more of these?" (There are now-and in wood)
But for all these boats it is instructive to look at their beauty and at the same time realize that it is the shape and proportions of these vessels which causes them to behave the way they do. The pleasure is greatly in the dynamics. I am forever greatful to these designers for their genius in creating these designs for our pleasure. It is gift to experience them.

[rbgarr]

Thanks for sharing your experience of that gift. Well written!

[JamesCaird]

Gentlemen: Reviewing my earlier post re: Rozinante/QT/Araminta/Arion I thought I might go back to the original post questions. I do not know all the answers so correct me wherever.....
1. Quiet Tunes: Orignally built in Maine/Sonny Hodgden. Rebuilt substantially by Barry Thomas at Mystic in the 80's?. I think there is another now in Maine and even another in (Alum.?) in Marion, Ma?
2. Sailing differences: Complicated answer but essentially you are asking what makes different boats different. We could look at this subject series of vessels as an example. I would first say that they have a common ancestry-namely that the designers were NGHerreshoff's sons! They were most demonstrably influenced (to our great benefit) by that. Visually they are tied together by their proportions, their symetry of rigs-all ketches and seem to benefit from a common sense of proportion.
However-Rozinante is light, she is narrow, canoe sterned. Quiet Tune is wider, heavier, deeper, counter stern but with essentially the same rig. Araminta is a leap-50% heavier again, longer and lots more sail area (348/580 or so?) Arion is loooong but very light for her size. She is narrow, lots of ballast (ratio) but also very hard in the bilges and she is canoe sterned. All these boats sail fantasticly well, meaning that they are so nicely ballanced and predictable that you steer with the flex of the wrist or the slight movement of one finger I am not exagerating. You can wiggle these boats through an anchorage undersail with confidence.
3: Ease of building-Rozinante is lightest and a very natural form to plank. Keep it simple.
Quiet Tune and Araminta are more complicated, heavier, Transom sterns (raked and curved). Arion is long and narrow. But wood wants to be shaped like this. However-the devil is in the details: It is ABSOLUTELY IMPERATIVE in these boats to get the details correct. It is the exact profile of the stem, the rake of the masts, the curve of the cabin sides, the shape and fitting of the bow/stern chocks, for example, which all go to make the symphony in motion (or at rest, for that matter)that we all seem to find so pleasing in these vessel. You can't mess with the designs very much. I remember Murial Vaughn pointing out a LFH#98 to me once. "That's no Rozinante"' she said, "it's got a sliding hatch!"
4-Nuts to dream of QT?-maybe not-but make sure to get the details correct-the transom is important-you owe it yourself and to the design and the designers, the wood and bronze and us all to get it right. Bon chance!

[rbgarr]

Are you sure QT was built by Sonny Hodgdon? I was under the impression she was built by Norman, his uncle.

[Jay Greer]

I belive I can shed some further light on both "Quiet Tune" and "Araminta". "Quiet Tune" once belonged to my friend Dan Carter. Dan also owned "Tioga" and sailed her from the East to West Coast via the Canal.
"Tioga" was more boat than Dan needed and so he sold her and bought "Quiet Tune" and had her shipped to California back in the late seventies. He was determined to make her "Vanilla" and did an extensive rebuild on her that involved full deck, transom, deck house, spars engine tanks, interior and sails. The West Coast Herreshoff restorer Wayne Ettle did the job which was magnificent to say the least. "Quiet Tune" took Best of Show awards hands down at the opening day of Newport Harbor Yacht Club when the job was finished.
Dan kept the boat at my dock for some seven years and I and my wife enjoyed many fine sails on her.

My wife and I are involved with the Wooden Boat Foundation in Port Townsend WA and so were also able to enjoy sailing the incredible "Ariminta" built by Legendary Yachts. Both boats are slippery sailors!
But "Araminta" is much faster, has more room below, is dryer in a chop going to weather and has a more comfortable cockpit. One has to sit with back against "Quiet Tunes" cockpit rail with legs straight out as the cockpit is very shallow. This is ok for a short sail but uncomfotable for extented helm watches. "Araminta"
is a banshee on a reach and will leave the fleet behing most often. For that matter, so will "Quiet Tune".

Dan Carter donated the boat to Mystic Sea Port after many happy years of sailing her in Southern CA. She was still Vanilla and imaculate when she was shrink wrapped for delivery there. She is the only boat built to that design as far as I know.

[cdragon]

Now this is an interesting and worthy post! To "qualify", I have sailed a good deal on the original versions of Araminta, Quiet Tune and a nearly perfect (as far as LFH specs) Rozinante as well as a bit on Arion. They are all lovely, lovely boats-some of the best and most beautiful there are. They all have the artistry of the Herreshoff clan, LFH's boats perhaps being the most "artistic" and Sidney's being unique. The initial posting of why there have not been a bunch of Quiet Tunes built is a question I have asked many times myself. Quiet tune is a beautiful boat to sail-quick and lively and plain fun to sail. Her "lie down" cockpit is a bit unique, very nice on a sunny afternoon sailing round the harbor, some do not like it. Funny that with all of the Rozinantes and all of the Aramintas that have been built (some good, some not so good) that there are not an equal number of Quiet Tunes-similar in size and complexity to build, and it would be a late-into-the-night argument to say which is the better boat....!
One note on the sailing of all the boats as far as balance-all of the boats can be balanced perfectly-I think it is particularly neat to sail a Rozinante for hours with the tiller fetched up on the mizzen and the sheets in hand-but Araminta (and I say this lovingly, I have sailed her alot, cruised her and raced her) can get a bit heavy on the helm. More like some of Cap't Nat's boats, she gives you a workout in a breeze at times - of course she is a much different design and is much heavier.
Ahh, I could go on for a long time about these lovely boats and would challenge anyone to go sailing on any one of them and then not wonder just what in the hell happened to sail boats in general...This is particularly acute when, while sailing any one of the boats; you are perhaps blissfully zipping through a mooring field under full sail or chunking along upwind in breeze and chop, or ghositng into the harbor at the end of the day, and you see a Hunter 30 something or a Catalina 29.9 or some other horrible contraption and you just scream out What Happened and Why?!?!?

[JimConlin]

There is an aluminum 'Quiet Tune' in Marion, MA. I think it was built by Paul Luke.

[rbgarr]

I'd like to see her in aluminum. His last aluminum boat is owned by his son and is still in the Luke yard. Very nicely done, too.

[RodB]

Was there ever a variation on "Araminta's" design, where the bow was changed similar to "Quiet Tune" or "Rozinante"?

Just wondered

RB

[Jeremy Burnett]

How about Joel White,s Center Harbor 31, his throw at the Quiet Tune type,said to be one of the most beautiful boats he drew.A really lovely creation.

[cdragon]

True the Center Harbor 31's are Joel White's version of Quiet Tune, but to my knowledge there are no boats built to the exact design, as there are Aramintas and of course, Rozinantes...

[John B]

This is a terrific thread. How wonderful to have sailed those boats. Green with envy.
Very interesting comments about the helm on these boats. I think most people accept that a certain amount of weather helm is required to make a boat go to windward. Does Quiet Tune load up at all? I mean.. she is positive on the helm to windward?

[RodB]

This is a great thread. For most guys it would be impossible to take a "test ride" in these craft. The comments above are very interesting and appreciated.

RB

[ 05-16-2005, 10:51 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[David W Pratt]

Quiet Tune is the picture on Benjamin Mendlowitz's calendar for this month (May '05). I'm not really interested in either one, but the guy who built my boat, Brion Rieff had just finished a cold molded Araminta called Arrow. I think you can see pix on his web site, BrionRieffBoatBuilders. Truth is there too.

[cdragon]

John B,
I'm loathe to let this great thread die, so much fun thinking about these wonderful boats while staring at this screen...
In my opinion, and I have not sailed Quiet Tune nearly as much as Araminta or the Rozinanates, but Quiet tune is nicely balanced and a joy to steer. One of the great things about these LFH boats and their split rigs is the versatility and flexibility of the sailplan, with a little creative trimming you can set the boat up to balance and be happy in alsmost any kind of conditions, eg: carry the mizzen a bit soft if the breeze comes up and she gets some helm, sail jib and jigger if breezy, back her up straight with a hard sheeted mizzen only etc etc...

[JimD]

Hope I'm not getting off topic but here's an interesting link to a Herreshoff restoration project I just googled up. Good read and pics. Quiet Tune gets a mention:
http://www.by-the-sea.com/cannellcla...b_current.html

[JimConlin]

These boats were designed in a time when the best available construction method was plank on frame. Today, other materials and methods are available and i'd argue that some of 'em can yield improvements in performance, cost, and/or longevity. The designer's challenge is to keep the beauty and good manners of such boats as the small LFH ketches while realizing the benefits of the new materials and methods. Joel White, Bob Stephens and Carl Schumacher have done this to a degree. If building today, i'd look hard at their work.

[JimD]

Good shot of the clipper bow

[rbgarr]

David W Pratt wrote:

Brion Rieff had just finished a cold molded Araminta called Arrow. I think you can see pix on his web site, BrionRieffBoatBuilders.

I can't google up a website. Anyone have one?

[JimConlin]

[JimD]

Anybody else have the 2005 Noah Publications Calendar of Wooden Boats? The month of May has a fabulous Benjamin Mendlowitz photo of Quiet Tune.

[Ben Fuller]

Have been off WB for a while. I have sailed QT a good bit in classes at WB school. Or to be more accurate my students have as I have a teaching rule that I don't touch the tiller for a week. That said there is goodly opportunity for observation. The shallowness of QT works against her. Self bailing cockpit so people sprawl around in it. I have actually found that sitting on the high side is pretty comfortable butt out, coaming under knees and feet in cockpit. She is a good bit bigger boat than Roz. But smaller than Araminta.

She is not a super comfortable boat. You have to bend yourself around to fit..... things like no cover on the engine, no head bare sitting headroom in cabin. She was designed as an afternoon dayboat for Maine and does that real well.

Rox is more comfortable. Lots cheaper. I suspect that if you can afford a QT you would go for the comfort of the larger Araminta.

Maynard does not like the genny that was added to QT in California, but it makes her pretty efficient when the wind goes light. Beating in a drifter in close quarters against the tide normally an anchor or engine affair.

To be really quick you'd need some light down wind stuff which would spoil the simplicity of rigging.

I have had her out in single reef or jib jigger conditions but no big seas. Any boat sailed to windward at speed will be wet this boat is no different.

One of the joys is in the details, which concerned LFH. Stuff like notchs in spreaders to keep halyards from rattling. No limber holes in toe rail, rather one small pipe scupper hole place exactly. Only one trim block for the jibs, sailmaker cuts sail to boat not adjust boat to sail.

QT as presently configured could use a flatter mizzen. In fact almost impossible to make the mizzen too flat.

If you have a chance take a course, go for a ride ( crass commercialism.) Khaki's and white long sleeved cotten shirts, please.

[rbgarr]

[Dave Gray]

Well, he says, how about a Buzzards Bay 25 as compared to all the above?

[RodB]

Yea, what about the BB 25:















RB

[ 05-21-2005, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[John B]

[rbgarr]

I just love it when a gaff mainsail sets smoothly on a boom and gaff that are limber enough to take slight curves under tension from the mainsheet and peak halyard. Poetry in motion.

[John B]

thats Jonquil, the only one I've heard of in NZ. she goes like a cut cat. A real giant killer. .The Pardeys used her for a few seasons.

Terrific boat.

[RodB]

Heres a pretty good pix of Araminta...



Heres some more "Araminta", hard to find any "Quiet Tune", does someone have some.





RB

[ 05-21-2005, 07:52 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[RodB]

bump for recent photos...of Araminta... at Mystic. I thought them appropriate for this thread since most photos here were not all that good and were lo res.














Next year I hope to sail both and get some good photos of Quiet Tune.

RB

[Farmer Diddley]

Rod, thanks for bumping this up, and for the great photos... some how I had missed this thread on my many searches through forum.

[Russ Manheimer]

Here's some Quiet Tune pics:



Quiet Tune at her mooring of the WB dock in Brooklin.




Quiet Tune and a Rozinante passing each other on Eggomogin Reach this past August. A double dose of LFH's genius.

Russ

[RodB]

Thanks for posting those photos Russ. Please post more if you have them.

Heres a few detail shots of Araminta...


Araminta's interior facing forward...


And facing the stern...


above decks...


I have a few more but these show here well...

RodB

[Jay Greer]

Just to keep this thread going. When my wife Anne and I were guests in the Herreshoff home, we had the pleasure of having the use of a Rozinante which we made jusdicious use of. This rounded up my, time of having sailed most of LFH's Ketch designs. What a joy! Now we own one of the origional H28's "Bright Star" built in Barcelona Spain in 1960 and featured in Sensible Cruising Designs. No ego involved here just a blog to keep this thread alive!
In respect of L.Francis Herreshoff
JG

[Russ Manheimer]

Rod,

Please show all you have. There are enough of us LFH fans here that too much is never enough. What a joy. I wonder if there's room on my Sjogin for a Concordia berth?

The only jarring note is the presence of a plastic bucket!

Thanks again for sharing your passion.

Jay,

Do you have some LFH photos to share? Was it the Castle that you stayed in?

Russ

[Keith Wilson]

Quiet Tune has her very own Herreshoff-pattern cedar bucket with the boat's name carved in it.

It looks like Araminta has quite a comfortable cockpit; I particularly like the clip-on seat thing. Quiet Tune reminded me that my knees aren't what they used to be.

[Jay Greer]

Russ,
Yes we did stay at the Castle. This was shortly after LFH passed on.
We met Muriel Vaugne in San Francisco while we were racing the LFH
Schooner "Landfall". Muriel knew that I had been corresponding with LFH for several years and invited us to come and visit the Castle. The visit was fantastic! Muriel layed out the red carpet for us. We slept in skipper's bunk, ate from Nathaniel's cereal bowls and stuffed down lobster till we nearly burst! I polished up skipper's cannon and off we went to the launching of a "Marco Polo". I had the run of Mr. Herreshoff's drafting room and machine shop. Every where were items that had been used in his books to illustrate his ideas. I ran his Rivet precision lathe and opened every drawer, door and
cupboard. I felt like a kid in a candy store with carte blanche. Best of all, I spent a week photographing everything in sight. The pictures will be featured in my forth coming book; "A visit to the Herreshoff Castle". Muriel presented me with a "shook down" last Herreshoff wooden bucket that we found under his drafting table. It was missing four staves and the bands. The restoration of the bucket is complete and , hopefully, will be the subject of an article in Woodenboat Magazine.
Fair Winds
Jay

[Dave Gray]

Jay, can you post some pictures of your H28?