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Thread: Welsford Sundowner build

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Welsford Sundowner build

    [QUOTE=sector;3466240]
    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    Frame #7 is done, this one forms the rear of the cabin and the start of the cockpit.

    It felt like three times the work with the solid wood frames. Below is the starboard side, 3 x 25mm clear Hoop Pine, doublers forward and rear with the rear one epoxy glued to the laminated beam (it is also screwed into the frame).

    .................................................. .................................................. ..............................................
    *Good ! This project also me greatly pleases itself.I keep up a correspondence about purchase this project. But solid deciduous species we in the Siberia do not have. In your view is it possible all frames to make frame from the plywood of 12 mm x 2 (3)? (excuse *for *the English)
    I am not sure, someone with more knowledge may be able to answer. Anyone know??
    Quest

    Moving slowly towards a Welsford Sundowner.

    Hobart Wooden Boat Festival 2017, or maybe 2019ish??

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...undowner-build
    http://sundownerbuild.blogspot.com.au/

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Welsford Sundowner build

    Frame 8, this one forms the rear of the engine bay/lockers and is notched to support the cockpit solid wood. Below looking from aft, uprights and horizontal supports are are 30mm x 45mm. Ply is 9mm.




    Below is the completed frame from forward, again this has doublers forward and aft of the solid frame meaning a thickness of 75mm in my case.



    And from aft:



    Ran out of solid wood as I made a mistake on an earlier frame and had to start over. Have enough to continue with Frame#9 and have ordered some more from Lazarides in Brisbane. This could be why!!
    Last edited by Quest; 07-11-2017 at 09:00 PM.
    Quest

    Moving slowly towards a Welsford Sundowner.

    Hobart Wooden Boat Festival 2017, or maybe 2019ish??

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...undowner-build
    http://sundownerbuild.blogspot.com.au/

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Welsford Sundowner build

    [QUOTE=sector;3466240]
    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    Frame #7 is done, this one forms the rear of the cabin and the start of the cockpit.

    It felt like three times the work with the solid wood frames. Below is the starboard side, 3 x 25mm clear Hoop Pine, doublers forward and rear with the rear one epoxy glued to the laminated beam (it is also screwed into the frame).

    .................................................. .................................................. ..............................................
    *Good ! This project also me greatly pleases itself.I keep up a correspondence about purchase this project. But solid deciduous species we in the Siberia do not have. In your view is it possible all frames to make frame from the plywood of 12 mm x 2 (3)? (excuse *for *the English)



    Have you considered Siberian larch? At least in Sweden larch is considered a first grade wood for boats...



    /fredrik

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Welsford Sundowner build

    From the larch I made a fence. Larch is strong wood. Yes! Venice stands from the Siberian larch. But it can be cleft. It I examine, first of all.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Welsford Sundowner build

    Heres a thought, while at the framing stage, have you considered making the boat a bit longer? John usually advises that his designs can stand about 10% stretching by making the frames a bit wider apart and everything else remains the same. That way for a very minimal outlay in materials you get a lot more room, more speed, a bit more sea kindliness and sleeker looks.
    whatever rocks your boat

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Welsford Sundowner build

    He is Paul see post #4. Please pay attention

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Welsford Sundowner build

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul G. View Post
    Heres a thought, while at the framing stage, have you considered making the boat a bit longer? John usually advises that his designs can stand about 10% stretching by making the frames a bit wider apart and everything else remains the same. That way for a very minimal outlay in materials you get a lot more room, more speed, a bit more sea kindliness and sleeker looks.
    Paul, looks like Andrew beat me to it. I am going slightly longer, but thank you for thinking of it and taking the time to post. Any other suggestions greatly appreciated.

    I have just finished epoxy/screwing frame 9, so photos in the next few days.

    Have received the redrawn rig from John Welsford so am thinking of starting on the gaff/boom/mast while I still have room in the shed (no strongback yet, serious case of Strongback Envy looking at Andrew's!). For the mast I was thinking of solid wood at the bottom where the pivot is and the mast slots into the tabernacle, then an alloy tube 100mm diameter with 3.2mm wall thickness about 6500mm (or 7000mm if I can get it) long. Then tapered solid wood at the top again up to the mast top platform the same as Charlie Wipple's. This is instead of building the whole thing from wood. New overall length is 9.8m from bottom of the tabernacle to the mast top. Any thoughts??
    Quest

    Moving slowly towards a Welsford Sundowner.

    Hobart Wooden Boat Festival 2017, or maybe 2019ish??

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...undowner-build
    http://sundownerbuild.blogspot.com.au/

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Welsford Sundowner build

    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    Paul, looks like Andrew beat me to it. I am going slightly longer, but thank you for thinking of it and taking the time to post. Any other suggestions greatly appreciated.

    I have just finished epoxy/screwing frame 9, so photos in the next few days.

    Have received the redrawn rig from John Welsford so am thinking of starting on the gaff/boom/mast while I still have room in the shed (no strongback yet, serious case of Strongback Envy looking at Andrew's!). For the mast I was thinking of solid wood at the bottom where the pivot is and the mast slots into the tabernacle, then an alloy tube 100mm diameter with 3.2mm wall thickness about 6500mm (or 7000mm if I can get it) long. Then tapered solid wood at the top again up to the mast top platform the same as Charlie Wipple's. This is instead of building the whole thing from wood. New overall length is 9.8m from bottom of the tabernacle to the mast top. Any thoughts??
    How much money do you have to spend on the rig? Gaff masts are a bit of a telephone pole, but if your object is light weight, you cant beat a carbon mast, certainly carbon gaff's are recommended. If you are going the alloy way, try to get it in one piece and have it tapered, a timber plug at the top is needlessly heavy. If you must get a plain tube be very wary about timber plugs especially at the bottom. Rot could ruin a nice day in the southern ocean. Trailer boats where the mast is inspected and stored- no issue but a moored boat, I would avoid it. Alloy spars are not expensive,its the fittings and labour. Timber is a nice option, it can be lightish if you use birdsmouth construction, it looks the best and you can do it yourself- but again its not cheap as good spar grade oregon or spruce is spendy.
    whatever rocks your boat

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Welsford Sundowner build

    Quest,*What purpose of the creationof the boat –offshore cruising?

    *

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Welsford Sundowner build

    Quote Originally Posted by sector View Post
    Quest,*What purpose of the creationof the boat –offshore cruising?

    *
    I would say Bay and Coastal cruising for the main, but who knows? The further south you go in Australia the rougher it gets, Bass Strait and Tasmania are a long way towards the bottom of the globe.
    Quest

    Moving slowly towards a Welsford Sundowner.

    Hobart Wooden Boat Festival 2017, or maybe 2019ish??

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...undowner-build
    http://sundownerbuild.blogspot.com.au/

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Welsford Sundowner build

    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    I would say Bay and Coastal cruising for the main, but who knows? The further south you go in Australia the rougher it gets, Bass Strait and Tasmania are a long way towards the bottom of the globe.
    Dunno about that Mal, we dont get cyclones!!
    You're sure cracking on - overall I reckon we're about even. I just got a delivery of bling from Classic Marine of some bronze hardware so in the future when I'm sitting around I can make up things like rudder and mast etc.

    How many more frames do you need to make up before the transom?

    Andrew

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Welsford Sundowner build

    Quote Originally Posted by andrewpatrol View Post

    How many more frames do you need to make up before the transom?

    Andrew
    Andrew,
    Frame 9 is done, just some sanding to complete. Frame 10 is marked out on the floor and after the last couple looks relatively simple. Then transom frame, partly only dry fit so when you roll it over you can remove the upper cross pieces to access in and out for fitout. Strongback planning is definately starting in the next week or two.

    Will head over for a look at your thread, hopefully you have posted some pictures of the bronze.
    Quest

    Moving slowly towards a Welsford Sundowner.

    Hobart Wooden Boat Festival 2017, or maybe 2019ish??

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...undowner-build
    http://sundownerbuild.blogspot.com.au/

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Welsford Sundowner build

    Mal
    Thats a clever idea removing transom, saves clambering over the gunnel which i reckon i'll be sick of in the first week. Dont rush over for pics cos i'm a bit slack
    Andrew

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Welsford Sundowner build

    Quote Originally Posted by andrewpatrol View Post
    Mal
    Thats a clever idea removing transom, saves clambering over the gunnel which i reckon i'll be sick of in the first week. Dont rush over for pics cos i'm a bit slack
    Andrew
    Andrew, I would love to say I thought of it but John Welsford covered it in the building guide.

    Frame 9 is complete.

    This frame only has a single doubler on the forward side of the solid frame, seems like a piece of cake after the last two frames. The frame itself forms a watertight bulkhead across the full beam of the boat in 9mm ply, and forms one of the supports for the cockpit. In addition, it is the end of the berths each side

    From fwd side:





    Then from aft, showing the solid wood to stiffen the ply frame. Across the top are 45mm x 20mm put on slightly oversize then cut to match the curve of the ply. The large horizontal one and the verticals are 45mm x 30mm and the usual hardwood cross piece on the base. Note the solid 95mm x 20mm is screwed from this side.



    Onwards to frame#10, which is marked out on the floor and just under way.
    Last edited by Quest; 07-11-2017 at 09:02 PM.
    Quest

    Moving slowly towards a Welsford Sundowner.

    Hobart Wooden Boat Festival 2017, or maybe 2019ish??

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...undowner-build
    http://sundownerbuild.blogspot.com.au/

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Welsford Sundowner build

    Gday Mal, Just wondering about the quantity of screws you're using for the timber pieces attached to ply etc. Is that what JW specifies? I thought that these days of epoxy construction it was more usual to just glue, and fillet if needed, especially when the timbers are only really a fillet type member anyway. I can understand of a couple of locating screws but so many?
    Andrew

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Welsford Sundowner build

    Andrew,
    You are probably right, I used too many. On the earlier frames I didn't use any, even when I was doing doublers. But as I got to putting three layers of solid wood in one go I used them to position and hold it while the glue went off. This frame divides a waterproof section behind it to the transom, the plans said doublers all round screwed on 100mm centres but I think it was probably just around the outside?

    Went a bit mad with the drill, but I will have no worries about the frame being stiff and holding its shape! I take your point and think you are probably right, one or two per section 30mm x 45mm and a few in the solid wood to hold it to the ply.

    The transom is covered in a layer of 12mm ply and the Charlie Wipple build thread on John Welsford's site shows photos with a similar screw pattern where it meets the solid wood frame, I will check it.
    Quest

    Moving slowly towards a Welsford Sundowner.

    Hobart Wooden Boat Festival 2017, or maybe 2019ish??

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...undowner-build
    http://sundownerbuild.blogspot.com.au/

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Welsford Sundowner build

    This is the photo from the JW site showing the transom fit to the solid frames. I looked at this and figured when he said screwed at 100mm centres he meant all round and on the stiffening pieces as well. It's done now, but I will keep it in mind for later.


    Last edited by Quest; 07-11-2017 at 09:06 PM.
    Quest

    Moving slowly towards a Welsford Sundowner.

    Hobart Wooden Boat Festival 2017, or maybe 2019ish??

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...undowner-build
    http://sundownerbuild.blogspot.com.au/

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Welsford Sundowner build

    Frame 10

    I'm calling it the last frame. Sure there is a support that the two layers of 12mm ply screws to for the transom. But that doesn't go inside the hull interior space, is part of the hull and I am making the rules here.

    Similar to the last one it has a cross support notched for the cockpit floor and supports for the seat fronts/tops. Very easy to pick up and carry after the earlier ones as well with no plywood web. I've spared you the extra photos with close ups of packers and doublers, here is the final product. Single layer of solid wood with 9mm doubler over the scarf joint, horizontal and uprights are 45mm x 30mm and 45mm x 20mm for the seat top supports.



    And below from aft:



    Onward to transom supports (that isn't a frame!) and some serious strong back planning.
    Last edited by Quest; 07-11-2017 at 09:07 PM.
    Quest

    Moving slowly towards a Welsford Sundowner.

    Hobart Wooden Boat Festival 2017, or maybe 2019ish??

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...undowner-build
    http://sundownerbuild.blogspot.com.au/

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Welsford Sundowner build

    Quest, today August, but in youalready 10 frames -rapidly, is not slowly!!?? What is further!? Why "moving slowly"!?

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Welsford Sundowner build

    Sector,
    It feels like a long time already, and planking the hull has me scared. But I have got into a good routine so far.
    Quest

    Moving slowly towards a Welsford Sundowner.

    Hobart Wooden Boat Festival 2017, or maybe 2019ish??

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...undowner-build
    http://sundownerbuild.blogspot.com.au/

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Welsford Sundowner build

    Quest, as drawings are good!? There are many errors? I be going to acquire plans with http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jw...wner/index.htm. What you will say in regard to this?

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Welsford Sundowner build

    Quote Originally Posted by sector View Post
    Quest, as drawings are good!? There are many errors? I be going to acquire plans with http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jw...wner/index.htm. What you will say in regard to this?
    Sector,
    I got mine direct from John Welsford's site, but I think duckworks sell on his behalf so there should be no problem. So far the plans are very good. I have only found one error which was a very minor one on the forward hatch. It was drawn and marked for length accurately but one of the smaller dimensions on an interior piece was out by 10mm.

    Take your time looking at the plans once you get them. I split them up into groups: frames, hatches, cockpit/deck supports etc so I could find what I was looking for.

    I looked at them over and over until I understood what they were showing, especially for the frames. The Charlie Wipple building diary on the Welsford site is also good for photos to help you understand/compare the plans to an actual photo. Hopefully some of the photo's I have put here will also help, that is why I did it!
    Quest

    Moving slowly towards a Welsford Sundowner.

    Hobart Wooden Boat Festival 2017, or maybe 2019ish??

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...undowner-build
    http://sundownerbuild.blogspot.com.au/

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Welsford Sundowner build

    I would imagine if you purchase from designer then more of the money goes where it should. Also when you have questions they come from the designer rather than an agent. JMO
    andrew

  24. #59
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    Default Re: Welsford Sundowner build

    Andrew,yes, of course, I with you am agreeable. But me did not succeed in being connected with the address in the site. What is to be done!? The councils of designer are very important!

  25. #60
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    Default Re: Welsford Sundowner build

    Transom is done, no more frames!! This one finished above the waterline.

    The frame has a doubler on the forward side, a 30 x 45mm cross piece to support the cockpit floor (half lapped into the frame so the transom has one flat vertical surface for the ply transom) and two vertical 30 x 45mm pieces for the seat front support. The laminated beam is only dry fit at this stage, and there is another laminated beam to go across from the very top for the aft deck.

    This is a close up of the solid frame, horizontal and vertical pieces all half lap joined. All epoxy glued in place, I skillfully left nice spaces in the joins to allow the epoxy to get a good penetration! They are not as bad as they look, trust me.



    From forward below:



    From aft, laminated beam is screwed only and top of vertical pieces just sitting there.
    Last edited by Quest; 07-11-2017 at 09:08 PM.
    Quest

    Moving slowly towards a Welsford Sundowner.

    Hobart Wooden Boat Festival 2017, or maybe 2019ish??

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...undowner-build
    http://sundownerbuild.blogspot.com.au/

  26. #61
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    Default Re: Welsford Sundowner build

    While I was waiting to do some final filling of countersunk screw holes on the transom I decided to try and sort the strongback. Andrew is getting too far ahead of me so it was time for some concerted effort.

    First was the side pieces which were in two pieces each, joined with blocks inside and out and four 8mm bolts/glue per side. Then I clamped them close together and marked out all the places for the cross members for strength, marked the position of the legs and also the frames (measurements adjusted for my stretch).



    Then I clamped all the cross members in place and screwed them into the sides with 70mm tech screws (two per side). This gave me the basic frame. Then I cut 10 legs 400mm long, and while upside down clamped them in place four at a time. I then checked the level each way including the ones already done, sideways, horizontally and also diagonal. I also checked each leg for level. Then I crossed my fingers and bolted them all to the sides with two bolts per leg.

    Once I had finished all the legs, I flipped it over. Once uprights, a further two tech screws were put in per leg where the leg was underneath the cross pieces. This was at each end, and one of the legs in the middle.



    The final step was a 9mm end piece glued and screwed to the legs each end, the sides and the cross piece.



    There is one of these on each side at each end to provide bracing.

    The final check was level along each of the sides at various points, then each of cross braces. Below is the result, with help from my assistant (and the blokes who laid the level concrete slab for my shed, I owe them a beer).




    To justify a beer, I stood up frame 3 which is too low but gave me a shock on the width

    Last edited by Quest; 07-11-2017 at 09:11 PM. Reason: forgot a photo
    Quest

    Moving slowly towards a Welsford Sundowner.

    Hobart Wooden Boat Festival 2017, or maybe 2019ish??

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...undowner-build
    http://sundownerbuild.blogspot.com.au/

  27. #62
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    Default Re: Welsford Sundowner build

    Hi Mal, that looks huge with the frame up on strongback. Big boat. Just wondering if you're putting any more bracing on the strongback cos by the time the full boat weight is on it and you are pushing/shouving planks etc it may move, you could probably fit some extra legs out near frame/cross spall attachment. I also dyna bolted mine to the floor. One other thing I found that I should have done was mark both sides of the frames with DWL and centerline. Hope I dont sound too much the know it all, but just passing little pieces to help.
    Regards
    Andrew

  28. #63
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    Default Re: Welsford Sundowner build

    Andrew,
    Don't worry about offending me, I'm happy to hear anyone chime in with stuff I will not have thought of. Luckily the building guide mentioned marking the waterlines so on all the frames I have the waterline each side and the centreline on the hardwood bottom pieces. Wish I'd paid more attention to placing the temporary supports though.....

    Good thought on the dyna bolting, I hadn't really considered if for the strongback but the stem support is supposed to be. I figured the weight would hold it down but that takes us to your last point about the legs. The overall length has gone from 4500 to just over 5000mm long, and I have already added an extra pair of legs from the original design because I was worried about extra weight as well. That works out at about a set of legs every 1.5m which I thought would be okay. Now you have me wondering.
    Quest

    Moving slowly towards a Welsford Sundowner.

    Hobart Wooden Boat Festival 2017, or maybe 2019ish??

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...undowner-build
    http://sundownerbuild.blogspot.com.au/

  29. #64
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    Default Re: Welsford Sundowner build

    Mal, what I was thinking about the extra legs was on the really wide frames where they overhang the strong back by quite a lot sideways. I'm just worried that the weight will bend the crosspiece on top of frame and put your alignment out. The stem will definitely need fixing to the floor when you bend bits of wood around to it. I know it hurts to drill holes in a nice slab but...... You'll need diagonals on the legs ( or more ply bits) both directions and diagonals between your long side rails. I have to get inventive in slowing you down, no really I'm serious. Can't wait to see all those frames up but don't be in too much of a hurry. See ya

  30. #65
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    Default Re: Welsford Sundowner build

    Andrew,
    Ah, now the penny has dropped and I know what you are talking about. "Cross Spall"? You should have used the technical term, cross bit!

    Great idea. Handn't even thought about something like that which is why I encourage all to throw in their suggestions. I cannot promise I will follow them all but I assure you I will not be offended.

    I'm happy with the strongback itself but a few vertical legs out wide is a great idea and keep an eye on the photos for implementation. Off to borrow a laser level tomorrow then standby...
    Quest

    Moving slowly towards a Welsford Sundowner.

    Hobart Wooden Boat Festival 2017, or maybe 2019ish??

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...undowner-build
    http://sundownerbuild.blogspot.com.au/

  31. #66
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    Default Re: Welsford Sundowner build

    Have been busy, with a public holiday for the Brisbane Exhibition (show) allowing me some extra shed time. Will post a few more when I have finished, but this is just a teaser.

    Below in the middle and right are frames 4 and 5 which were first, with the plywood galley front added for extra stiffening. Then on the left frame 3 to front:



    From a distance:




    Worked my way each side doing frame 3 and six, then back from six to the transom. Then put the ground based supports for the stem and frames one and two at the front.

    Below is a distance shot trying to look down the centreline. This one made all the checking levels, alignment, waterlines, heights and that the frames were square worthwhile. I have put extra bracing across the top, on the frames to the strongback and between each of the frames to hold it all secure until the stringers (?) go on the stiffen it up.

    Stem to go in place after I finish final placement and bracing of frame 1, but this is my favourite shot so far!



    More soon, boy this beer is tasting good looking at that photo!
    Last edited by Quest; 07-11-2017 at 09:12 PM.
    Quest

    Moving slowly towards a Welsford Sundowner.

    Hobart Wooden Boat Festival 2017, or maybe 2019ish??

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...undowner-build
    http://sundownerbuild.blogspot.com.au/

  32. #67
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    Default Re: Welsford Sundowner build

    Looks very good! When will you start planking?

  33. #68
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    Default Re: Welsford Sundowner build

    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post


    !
    That's a terrific milestone. Well done.
    St.John

  34. #69
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    Default Re: Welsford Sundowner build

    Trango,
    Planking? Steady on. I still have to finish putting frame one up properly and then fit the stem. Then the stringers etc. My goal was frames up by Christmas (as my wife keeps reminding me!).

    St.John,
    Thank you. I didn't think it would look this impressive yet, or as wide. I am really starting to get an idea of just how big this thing is going to be.
    Quest

    Moving slowly towards a Welsford Sundowner.

    Hobart Wooden Boat Festival 2017, or maybe 2019ish??

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...undowner-build
    http://sundownerbuild.blogspot.com.au/

  35. #70
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    Default Re: Welsford Sundowner build

    Frames are up, I have picked a few photos from the blog to show the final results which I am very happy with.

    This is the final result with the stem attached:





    Some of my frames needed lifting because my cross pieces were not the right distance away from the waterline. This also provided an opportunity to employ a suggestion from Andrew to prop up the outside of the wider frames to support the weight:



    Once everything was in place I nailed bits of wood across the tops of the hardwood (see the first photo), between the frames and also from the bottom of the frames back to the strongback in a few places.

    Then I crawled inside and took a few photos, right way up thanks to digital imaging:

    Fr 8 to 1 inside:




    Fr 5 - 1 inside:




    Fr 6 - transom inside:




    Happy but tiring few days, need to order some wood for the stringers now!
    Last edited by Quest; 07-11-2017 at 09:14 PM.
    Quest

    Moving slowly towards a Welsford Sundowner.

    Hobart Wooden Boat Festival 2017, or maybe 2019ish??

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...undowner-build
    http://sundownerbuild.blogspot.com.au/

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