Welsford Sundowner build

[Quest]

Andrew,
You are probably right, I used too many. On the earlier frames I didn't use any, even when I was doing doublers. But as I got to putting three layers of solid wood in one go I used them to position and hold it while the glue went off. This frame divides a waterproof section behind it to the transom, the plans said doublers all round screwed on 100mm centres but I think it was probably just around the outside?

Went a bit mad with the drill, but I will have no worries about the frame being stiff and holding its shape! I take your point and think you are probably right, one or two per section 30mm x 45mm and a few in the solid wood to hold it to the ply.

The transom is covered in a layer of 12mm ply and the Charlie Wipple build thread on John Welsford's site shows photos with a similar screw pattern where it meets the solid wood frame, I will check it.

[Quest]

This is the photo from the JW site showing the transom fit to the solid frames. I looked at this and figured when he said screwed at 100mm centres he meant all round and on the stiffening pieces as well. It's done now, but I will keep it in mind for later.

[Quest]

Frame 10

I'm calling it the last frame. Sure there is a support that the two layers of 12mm ply screws to for the transom. But that doesn't go inside the hull interior space, is part of the hull and I am making the rules here.

Similar to the last one it has a cross support notched for the cockpit floor and supports for the seat fronts/tops. Very easy to pick up and carry after the earlier ones as well with no plywood web. I've spared you the extra photos with close ups of packers and doublers, here is the final product. Single layer of solid wood with 9mm doubler over the scarf joint, horizontal and uprights are 45mm x 30mm and 45mm x 20mm for the seat top supports.



And below from aft:



Onward to transom supports (that isn't a frame!) and some serious strong back planning.

[sector]

Quest, today August, but in youalready 10 frames -rapidly, is not slowly!!?? What is further!? Why "moving slowly"!?

[Quest]

Sector,
It feels like a long time already, and planking the hull has me scared. But I have got into a good routine so far.

[sector]

Quest, as drawings are good!? There are many errors? I be going to acquire plans with http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jw...wner/index.htm. What you will say in regard to this?

[Quest]

Quest, as drawings are good!? There are many errors? I be going to acquire plans with http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jw...wner/index.htm. What you will say in regard to this?

Sector,
I got mine direct from John Welsford's site, but I think duckworks sell on his behalf so there should be no problem. So far the plans are very good. I have only found one error which was a very minor one on the forward hatch. It was drawn and marked for length accurately but one of the smaller dimensions on an interior piece was out by 10mm.

Take your time looking at the plans once you get them. I split them up into groups: frames, hatches, cockpit/deck supports etc so I could find what I was looking for.

I looked at them over and over until I understood what they were showing, especially for the frames. The Charlie Wipple building diary on the Welsford site is also good for photos to help you understand/compare the plans to an actual photo. Hopefully some of the photo's I have put here will also help, that is why I did it!

[andrewpatrol]

I would imagine if you purchase from designer then more of the money goes where it should. Also when you have questions they come from the designer rather than an agent. JMO
andrew

[sector]

Andrew,yes, of course, I with you am agreeable. But me did not succeed in being connected with the address in the site. What is to be done!? The councils of designer are very important!

[Quest]

Transom is done, no more frames!! This one finished above the waterline.

The frame has a doubler on the forward side, a 30 x 45mm cross piece to support the cockpit floor (half lapped into the frame so the transom has one flat vertical surface for the ply transom) and two vertical 30 x 45mm pieces for the seat front support. The laminated beam is only dry fit at this stage, and there is another laminated beam to go across from the very top for the aft deck.

This is a close up of the solid frame, horizontal and vertical pieces all half lap joined. All epoxy glued in place, I skillfully left nice spaces in the joins to allow the epoxy to get a good penetration! They are not as bad as they look, trust me.



From forward below:


From aft, laminated beam is screwed only and top of vertical pieces just sitting there.

[Quest]

While I was waiting to do some final filling of countersunk screw holes on the transom I decided to try and sort the strongback. Andrew is getting too far ahead of me so it was time for some concerted effort.

First was the side pieces which were in two pieces each, joined with blocks inside and out and four 8mm bolts/glue per side. Then I clamped them close together and marked out all the places for the cross members for strength, marked the position of the legs and also the frames (measurements adjusted for my stretch).



Then I clamped all the cross members in place and screwed them into the sides with 70mm tech screws (two per side). This gave me the basic frame. Then I cut 10 legs 400mm long, and while upside down clamped them in place four at a time. I then checked the level each way including the ones already done, sideways, horizontally and also diagonal. I also checked each leg for level. Then I crossed my fingers and bolted them all to the sides with two bolts per leg.

Once I had finished all the legs, I flipped it over. Once uprights, a further two tech screws were put in per leg where the leg was underneath the cross pieces. This was at each end, and one of the legs in the middle.



The final step was a 9mm end piece glued and screwed to the legs each end, the sides and the cross piece.



There is one of these on each side at each end to provide bracing.

The final check was level along each of the sides at various points, then each of cross braces. Below is the result, with help from my assistant (and the blokes who laid the level concrete slab for my shed, I owe them a beer).




To justify a beer, I stood up frame 3 which is too low but gave me a shock on the width

[andrewpatrol]

Hi Mal, that looks huge with the frame up on strongback. Big boat. Just wondering if you're putting any more bracing on the strongback cos by the time the full boat weight is on it and you are pushing/shouving planks etc it may move, you could probably fit some extra legs out near frame/cross spall attachment. I also dyna bolted mine to the floor. One other thing I found that I should have done was mark both sides of the frames with DWL and centerline. Hope I dont sound too much the know it all, but just passing little pieces to help.
Regards
Andrew

[Quest]

Andrew,
Don't worry about offending me, I'm happy to hear anyone chime in with stuff I will not have thought of. Luckily the building guide mentioned marking the waterlines so on all the frames I have the waterline each side and the centreline on the hardwood bottom pieces. Wish I'd paid more attention to placing the temporary supports though.....

Good thought on the dyna bolting, I hadn't really considered if for the strongback but the stem support is supposed to be. I figured the weight would hold it down but that takes us to your last point about the legs. The overall length has gone from 4500 to just over 5000mm long, and I have already added an extra pair of legs from the original design because I was worried about extra weight as well. That works out at about a set of legs every 1.5m which I thought would be okay. Now you have me wondering.

[andrewpatrol]

Mal, what I was thinking about the extra legs was on the really wide frames where they overhang the strong back by quite a lot sideways. I'm just worried that the weight will bend the crosspiece on top of frame and put your alignment out. The stem will definitely need fixing to the floor when you bend bits of wood around to it. I know it hurts to drill holes in a nice slab but...... You'll need diagonals on the legs ( or more ply bits) both directions and diagonals between your long side rails. I have to get inventive in slowing you down, no really I'm serious. Can't wait to see all those frames up but don't be in too much of a hurry. See ya

[Quest]

Andrew,
Ah, now the penny has dropped and I know what you are talking about. "Cross Spall"? You should have used the technical term, cross bit!

Great idea. Handn't even thought about something like that which is why I encourage all to throw in their suggestions. I cannot promise I will follow them all but I assure you I will not be offended.

I'm happy with the strongback itself but a few vertical legs out wide is a great idea and keep an eye on the photos for implementation. Off to borrow a laser level tomorrow then standby...

[Quest]

Have been busy, with a public holiday for the Brisbane Exhibition (show) allowing me some extra shed time. Will post a few more when I have finished, but this is just a teaser.

Below in the middle and right are frames 4 and 5 which were first, with the plywood galley front added for extra stiffening. Then on the left frame 3 to front:



From a distance:




Worked my way each side doing frame 3 and six, then back from six to the transom. Then put the ground based supports for the stem and frames one and two at the front.

Below is a distance shot trying to look down the centreline. This one made all the checking levels, alignment, waterlines, heights and that the frames were square worthwhile. I have put extra bracing across the top, on the frames to the strongback and between each of the frames to hold it all secure until the stringers (?) go on the stiffen it up.

Stem to go in place after I finish final placement and bracing of frame 1, but this is my favourite shot so far!



More soon, boy this beer is tasting good looking at that photo!

[trango]

Looks very good! When will you start planking?

[St.J]

!

That's a terrific milestone. Well done.
St.John

[Quest]

Trango,
Planking? Steady on. I still have to finish putting frame one up properly and then fit the stem. Then the stringers etc. My goal was frames up by Christmas (as my wife keeps reminding me!).

St.John,
Thank you. I didn't think it would look this impressive yet, or as wide. I am really starting to get an idea of just how big this thing is going to be.

[Quest]

Frames are up, I have picked a few photos from the blog to show the final results which I am very happy with.

This is the final result with the stem attached:





Some of my frames needed lifting because my cross pieces were not the right distance away from the waterline. This also provided an opportunity to employ a suggestion from Andrew to prop up the outside of the wider frames to support the weight:



Once everything was in place I nailed bits of wood across the tops of the hardwood (see the first photo), between the frames and also from the bottom of the frames back to the strongback in a few places.

Then I crawled inside and took a few photos, right way up thanks to digital imaging:

Fr 8 to 1 inside:




Fr 5 - 1 inside:




Fr 6 - transom inside:




Happy but tiring few days, need to order some wood for the stringers now!

[andrewpatrol]

Good on ya Mal, Causes some head scratching setting up the frames doesnt it. Looks great with the upside down shots, I see you've even moved some of the furniture in too. Those curved beams are they the deck or something else, just trying to get a feel for the depth of hull
Andrew

[trango]

Looking good! Must be exciting to finally see the shape in 3D!

/Fredrik

[Quest]

Good on ya Mal, Causes some head scratching setting up the frames doesnt it. Looks great with the upside down shots, I see you've even moved some of the furniture in too. Those curved beams are they the deck or something else, just trying to get a feel for the depth of hull
Andrew

Thanks Andrew. Took me a while of adjusting, checking, readjusting and cursing but I'm happy with the result. By moving the furniture in I assume you mean the galley, the front and back were on the frame, the building guide says to screw on the front to stiffen it up which worked out well.

One of the things I like about this design, and plans, is that a lot of the supports for the interior fitout are pre made on the frames. You will see on the early frames supports for the berth, seats and a bookcase on number 6. I admit I don't have a lot of experience to draw on, but I'm sure my accuracy on a flat properly marked out floor rather than the curves inside a hull have made the fitout preparation I have done extremely easier.

The curves from frame 7 are the start of the cockpit / seat tops. Between 7 and 8 in the centre is a locker and the ply on top of the curve becomes the seat top and runs all the way through to the transom.

[Quest]

Looking good! Must be exciting to finally see the shape in 3D!

/Fredrik

Yes Fredrik, it was great to stand back and finally see the shape. Was a bit scary how wide it is!!

[andrewpatrol]

Bookcase !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..................... Holy snappin timbers, Batman next you'll be telling me theres a Jason rocker recliner as well, all in 23 ft

[sector]

What do you do today?

[Quest]

What do you do today?

I had a little break after the frames were up, had to measure and order more wood for the chines which has now arrived. I also ordered more Oregon and made the boom and gaff main parts and got hardwood for the jaws. I also ordered Oregon to make the mast top and bottom pieces and had a 6500mm long marine alloy tube for the main middle section of the mast delivered. Photo's to follow soon but a lot slower than the frames.

[andrewpatrol]

good on ya Mal, I thought we'd lost ya. It does you good to have a spell every now and then, you've done a lot of work. Sometimes all you think about is boat this and boat that - makes you want run screaming

Good to hear from you
Andrew

[Quest]

good on ya Mal, I thought we'd lost ya. It does you good to have a spell every now and then, you've done a lot of work. Sometimes all you think about is boat this and boat that - makes you want run screaming

Good to hear from you
Andrew

No such luck Andrew, but I have been watching your build. Very tidy and impressive.

Didn't order any wood in advance like I have been, and had a little bit of a panic attack about the chines. I have to laminate up the pieces to get 34 pieces that are nearly 8m long each and haven't even started! I'm a bit worried about making sure the sections are all fair and the curves nice and smooth so I don't end up with lumps all over the finished hull. The build guide says spend time getting it right as it will show if you don't, which scared the you know what out of me.

Decided to do a couple of small jobs that are relatively quick making the boom and gaff, and mast (with mast top which is finished!) to get my confidence back and have a chance to finish parts so that I can see progress. I've already made the forward hatch and I really enjoyed the process and end result. I must admit I'm a bit daunted about getting the chines right and the hull planked.

[andrewpatrol]

Dunno if I need to say this or not, but use the best bits (no knots or grain runout) for the most curvaceous chines. When you laminate ( scarf ?? - its pretty easy ) choose the bits of wood with the most even bend characteristics.
Perhaps start on the easy ones and ease yourself into it, you'll do ok

[Quest]

Thanks for the pep talk. Each chine is laminated from three pieces in place, and then shaped/sanded to take the hull curve each side of the chine. The ones in between the chines are two lots of two pieces each which should be much easier as they just need to follow the curve of the sawn frames the are notched into.

I'm sure it will be like the frames, okay once you start you get into the groove but I guarantee I will be back for more advice!

Mal

[Quest]

I've started on the mast, main part is 100mm diameter 3mm wall marine alloy tube 6500mm long. Extra Oregon is added top and bottom - Top 100mm square and bottom 120mm square hollow boxes laminated from pieces. Overall length is 9800mm.

Extra supports inside where rigging is attached (top piece), pivot for mast tabernacle (bottom) and plugs top and bottom. Then shaped with the plane to cut down the weight.

Base, with "legs" of boom jaws support platform:



The top with the platform sitting in place:



Then on to the boom (4250mm long) and gaff (3300mm long) plus jaws in both cases.



Made some boom jaws from spotted gum.



Dry fit on the boom:



Still progressing.

[andrewpatrol]

You have been busy. When did you take a break - on tuesday afternoon? Well done Mal

[Quest]

Almost finished the mast, boom and gaff including jaws. Just a few more bits to add including some leather and they will be done.

Couldn't put it off any longer, started on the chines. Found the shortest one in a position that no one will see, tumblehome (?) stringer. I'm about to go out to the shed to pull off the clamps to see if it springs off and hits me in the head...

[P.L.Lenihan]

Another one of my favorite Welsford designs.I'm really enjoying this thread and look forward to following it closely over the winter months. I wish you every success with her building!


Cheers!



Peter

[andrewpatrol]

Well done Mal it looks fair from here although I reckon you could've done with one or two more clamps!!!!!! Does that get extended forward any more? I assume we're looking at the first chine down from the sheer ? I see the remains of your celebratory cake on the floor. Could we have a shot from forward looking aft along that chine please?

[Quest]

Another one of my favorite Welsford designs.I'm really enjoying this thread and look forward to following it closely over the winter months. I wish you every success with her building!


Cheers!



Peter

Peter,
Thank you for the kind words, it will probably not move as quickly as it did with the frames.

Andrew,
One of these threads said you can never have too many clamps. I've gone out for some photos as directed!

This what I have been up to while hiding from the chines, the bits standing up are the top and bottom of the mast:



This is the finished (almost) boom with jaws. 4250mm long plus a bit for the jaws.



This is with the clamps off. This is an extra stringer between the full length top and middle one that only goes from the end of the cabin to the transom. The "top" part of the hull (when it is right way up) has no curve from this stringer to the top one, and the top actually finishes up being inside the curve of the hull further down. I'm sure there is a nautical term I am supposed to know for all this, feel free to educate me! I still have to fair them to match the curve of the hull, and trim some from the sides of the frames which will be in the way off the hull layers.



For Andrew looking along the side to the transom:


From above


Where it meets the transom

[Quest]

Getting there. Made up a jig from scrap to cut the scarf joints.



Epoxied the first three on the first side all at once, will not do that again.

End result from the first three:










For the second side I have decided to change tactics. Seemed much quicker adjusting the cut outs in the frames, but I have the first ones to measure off to see how much to take off. Decided to epoxy the lowest one on alone first, making sure it follows the marks on the frame. The other two will then be dropped in together on top over the day or two when I get the chance.

From the front with the second side epoxied and clamped in place:

[Quest]

Finished the second one, just waiting for the epoxy to dry, sneak peak from inside as I wanted to see how it looked.

[trango]

Looking good!

Not very far from planking now??

/FredrikFredrik

[Quest]

Looking good!

Not very far from planking now??

/FredrikFredrik

I don't know about that. There are four main stringers (two each side) plus 8 (4 each side in between) to go before the they are done. Then I have to fair it all up and get the wood. I think it will take me a while yet!

[Larks]

'Not sure how I missed this thread but I'm looking forward to sitting down and reading through it after dinner!! Looks very interesting indeed!!

[Quest]

Larks,
And you are close enough to Brisbane (some times) for consultation!

[Larks]

I finally had a chance to read through the thread, I'd actually been looking out for it a while ago so I really don't know how I missed it. But wow Mal, what an amazing and interesting build and what a great job you are doing!!!.

And your documentation of it is terrific, I know how tedious it can be downloading pics on a regular basis but it really is well worth the effort and you'll be surprised what others will get from it who may never even comment on the thread.

Re your timber suppliers, Lazarides? I've not dealt with them before, are you getting all of your hoop pine and maple from them? How are they for price and quality? You seem to have some good timber in there (from what can be seen) but have you had to sort through their stocks to get what you want or is it all pretty good standard?

This is going to be a great build to watch as you progress!!

[Quest]

Larks,
Thank you, I have been looking at lots of threads including yours before starting (I built the forward hatch first, don't ask) and the ability to look at photos from different angles and with different ideas certainly helps. I found going through the Charlie Wipple diaries on the JW site and comparing to the plans helped heaps with understanding exactly what I was looking at. Posting photos can be a pain, but if someone else can use them in a future Sundowner build then that will make it worthwhile. It also helps me remember how far it has come, and like the Minde thread there is always just the joy of looking at wooden boats (or my cult as my son calls it).

Lazarides have been excellent. I rang them a few times with inquiries before I started buying and they were always helpful. They provide wood to wood turners and other specialists, so I am probably paying at the top of the market. But, they were not much different to others I checked, and because I was going to purchase in small lots along the way (space and spreading the cost) they also had the advantage that I drive nearly past it each day to and from work. I don't have all the equipment (thicknesser, band saw etc) so I end up buying a lot of finished wood. Just a matter of order the wood, couple of days later collect it on the way home. So far they have always supplied more than they quoted for, which is nice.

[RFNK]

Hi Mal, and thanks to Greg for drawing attention to your gracious thread and fine project! Good luck with it and I look forward very much to dropping in for a look!

Rick

[keyhavenpotterer]

Great progress.

How much adjustment do the notches take to get the battens to sit fair?

Ed

[Quest]

Great progress.

How much adjustment do the notches take to get the battens to sit fair?

Ed

How much adjustment? Probably much more than I did! They took a bit, especially up the front where the curve into the stem is large. But from about frame 4 or 5 to the transom they were not too bad. At least one frame on each stringer I had to cut out a piece of the frame and wedge it to allow it to sit fairish along the length in the notch.

But the stringers are laminated in place from three pieces so need further shaping once they are all on to take the curve of each of the chines, especially the stinger where the two chines meet. Quite a bit to come off to get the angle. I will take a few photos shortly to show what I mean. One side of the chine stinger is done, but the other side one will have to wait a week at least.

[Quest]

Hi Mal, and thanks to Greg for drawing attention to your gracious thread and fine project! Good luck with it and I look forward very much to dropping in for a look!

Rick

Thanks, I'll let you know when it is time for the torture board to come out!

[RFNK]

Thanks! That'd be great! That way I'll know when not to drop in!

Rick