Boat 'legs' design

[jalmberg]

I'm sick of paying $500 for my local marina to haul my 23' strip-planked boat out for painting. I'm wondering how hard it would be to build 'legs' for her, so I can beach her for a tide and paint both sides.

The legs themselves seem pretty simple, but how are they attached to the hull so they're strong enough to hold the boat up?

I've been hunting through my books and can't find any info. Perhaps I'm using the wrong word? Is there a nautical term for 'legs'?

Any ideas, drawings, or photos appreciated.

[Gib Etheridge]

I don't remember where I saw it but there was an article showing one person's approach to just that, probably in WB or EpoxyWorks.

As I remember it legs were shaped to the side of the hull and held in place with through bolts above the waterline when in use. The holes were plugged with shorter bolts of the same diameter when not in use.

Maybe I just dreamed that, it's getting harder to tell the difference. . It would work, anyway, and would probably be best if the legs had swiveling pads at their bottom ends.

I expect you'll want to spread tarps before doing any work, especially scraping or sanding.

[jalmberg]

Ah... I just found an old thread on this topic...

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...-Beaching-legs

[Peerie Maa]

They are legs and there are different solutions to your problem. Some are bolted through a sawn frame and bear against the plank whilst being fitted over the rubbing strakes, others like the ones on the shrimp trawlers around here are smith made, and arch up over the rail to be bolted to a big eyebolt fastened into the beam shelf. L F H proposed a design in The Compleat Cruiser, for a Golden Ball type yacht called Tranquilo which have the advantage of being adjustable.

[jalmberg]

They are legs and there are different solutions to your problem. Some are bolted through a sawn frame and bear against the plank whilst being fitted over the rubbing strakes, others like the ones on the shrimp trawlers around here are smith made, and arch up over the rail to be bolted to a big eyebolt fastened into the beam shelf. L F H proposed a design in The Compleat Cruiser, for a Golden Ball type yacht called Tranquilo which have the advantage of being adjustable.

Oh, I have that book. Thanks, I'll check it out.

[Ian McColgin]

I made legs for Goblin - 43'LOD x 12-6'B x 4-1/2'D x 12 ton Alden schooner, and for Granuaile, a Marco Polo 55'LOD x 10'B x 6'D x 20 ton. Just two, one on each side. I made them following the pattern LFH shows in "The Compleat Cruiser". They were long enough to come comfortably above the rail with a block and tackle hanging down from the top to a chain plate as near amidships as could be. The bottom had a 6" spike to help plant the leg. The bottom of the leg itself landed on a reinforced disc that the spike went through, rather like the basket on a ski pole. I had the legs spread a bit outside of straight and put a sausage fender between the leg and the gunnel. This made a reasonably rigid triangle between leg, straight line to keel, and the bottom, with fairly low stress on the leg itself.

I'd usually take the ground on a flat hard sand area that I'd surveyed at some previous low tides. I'd try to arrive an hour or two after high so that once we felt the ground the tide drop would be noticable but not so fast that I could not organize all the parts. Once we touch, I'd get the legs out and tighten up the tackles. I usually kept a level on the deck amidships so I could be sure that as we settled in I could adjust the tackles as needed.

Both my boats were big enough that with a crew and with the topsides sanded in advance, we could paint (a roller and a tipper at each end of a dink on each side) the topsides as the tide ebbed, use a corn brush with the bottom sand in the bristles to scour the bottom as the tide went further down, and get the bottom painted while dried out. The cheaper bottom paints like to go back in the water before they dry in the air. This method only looks well if you already have a well painted boot stripe that does not itself need painting at the moment (or can live without) since you'll be taping its top and bottom.

I put an anchor out from the mainmast truck on each side, well set, with the thought that if something terrible went wrong, the anchor would slow the boat's roll enough to let everyone get out of the way and perhaps even save the hull. As it happened, that was never tested.

[Mad Scientist]

Paul Gartside sells plans for beaching legs, Cdn $30.

http://store.gartsideboats.com/collections/other-things

Tom

[Ian McColgin]

The Gartside legs are "the other theory." If you're going to dry out on the same bottom tide after tide and want legs that do that job without your attention, they are the very thing. If you're going to dry out once or twice a year for a shave and a haircut, they are too expensive and involve overly substantial permanent modificaitons to the hull to make any sense. If you cruise and bring the legs along for the pleasure of parking in the mud where those folk with gensets running can't get near enough to destroy your serenity, the Gartside model - totally ubiquitous by the way in England where no one would think of paying good money for a commonsense thing they see in common use all over - is way too inflexable.

[wizbang 13]

If you are not worried about getting busted for enviro stuff, and are willing to beach/ careen the boat, you could just let her go aground in a protected spot, maybe the same spot, on her bilge, twice.
Then you would not have the stress of the legs not working/ falling over, and would not have to make the legs and their parts. And you could be working on a bottom that is tipped to your advantage. And, If you DID get nicked, you might be able to say you "accidentally" ran aground here and figured as long as she was up....
can't BS your way out of "accidental" grounding with legs.

[gilberj]

One thing to consider.......particularly if you are using a sloughing antifouling paint......try not leaving any paint residue on the beach where you dry out. All the boat yards out here place a tarp on the ground at least where the bottom is being pressure washed and often under the boat the whole time it is on the hard. The object of course is trying to keep as much of the nasty organic solids out of the environment as possible.
I beach Whimbrel from time to time to check the bottom and give her a scrub. I am now using a hard surface paint for this reason.

[St.J]

the Gartside model - totally ubiquitous by the way in England where no one would think of paying good money for a commonsense thing they see in common use all over - is way too inflexable.

This boat is on legs belonging to a local boatyard for running repairs. They're not specific to the boat, as you can see they don't really fit, but they keep her upright while the work is done.
I favour twin keels.
They make running aground look deliberate.

[jalmberg]

I made legs for Goblin - 43'LOD x 12-6'B x 4-1/2'D x 12 ton Alden schooner, and for Granuaile, a Marco Polo 55'LOD x 10'B x 6'D x 20 ton. Just two, one on each side. I made them following the pattern LFH shows in "The Compleat Cruiser". They were long enough to come comfortably above the rail with a block and tackle hanging down from the top to a chain plate as near amidships as could be. The bottom had a 6" spike to help plant the leg. The bottom of the leg itself landed on a reinforced disc that the spike went through, rather like the basket on a ski pole. I had the legs spread a bit outside of straight and put a sausage fender between the leg and the gunnel. This made a reasonably rigid triangle between leg, straight line to keel, and the bottom, with fairly low stress on the leg itself.

I'd usually take the ground on a flat hard sand area that I'd surveyed at some previous low tides. I'd try to arrive an hour or two after high so that once we felt the ground the tide drop would be noticable but not so fast that I could not organize all the parts. Once we touch, I'd get the legs out and tighten up the tackles. I usually kept a level on the deck amidships so I could be sure that as we settled in I could adjust the tackles as needed.

Both my boats were big enough that with a crew and with the topsides sanded in advance, we could paint (a roller and a tipper at each end of a dink on each side) the topsides as the tide ebbed, use a corn brush with the bottom sand in the bristles to scour the bottom as the tide went further down, and get the bottom painted while dried out. The cheaper bottom paints like to go back in the water before they dry in the air. This method only looks well if you already have a well painted boot stripe that does not itself need painting at the moment (or can live without) since you'll be taping its top and bottom.

I put an anchor out from the mainmast truck on each side, well set, with the thought that if something terrible went wrong, the anchor would slow the boat's roll enough to let everyone get out of the way and perhaps even save the hull. As it happened, that was never tested.

So, I've read the Compleat Cruiser story and think I understand everything except the tackle between the top of the leg, and the chainplate (I'd have to remove my lower shrouds, but that's okay).

What's the tackle for? Why not just a simple line, or even better, a chain (that won't stretch).

[jalmberg]

One thing to consider.......particularly if you are using a sloughing antifouling paint......try not leaving any paint residue on the beach where you dry out. All the boat yards out here place a tarp on the ground at least where the bottom is being pressure washed and often under the boat the whole time it is on the hard. The object of course is trying to keep as much of the nasty organic solids out of the environment as possible.
I beach Whimbrel from time to time to check the bottom and give her a scrub. I am now using a hard surface paint for this reason.

Silly question: do they allow you to hire a diver who will scrub your bottom during the season?

I have no doubt that my local harbormaster would frown on scrubbing the bottom while the boat is beached, but allows a local diver/scrubber to moor his boat right off the town dock, with his phone number painted on the topsides. There are probably a thousand boats in my harbor, and at least several hundred get scrubbed by a diver every summer...

I'm not saying its a good thing, but 'out of sight, out of mind'?

I usually get my bottom scrubbed once or twice a season... would probably paint just afterwards, to avoid the hassles.

[jalmberg]

If you are not worried about getting busted for enviro stuff, and are willing to beach/ careen the boat, you could just let her go aground in a protected spot, maybe the same spot, on her bilge, twice.
Then you would not have the stress of the legs not working/ falling over, and would not have to make the legs and their parts. And you could be working on a bottom that is tipped to your advantage. And, If you DID get nicked, you might be able to say you "accidentally" ran aground here and figured as long as she was up....
can't BS your way out of "accidental" grounding with legs.

Too many rocks around here for that. I don't think I could find a rock-free beach or sand spit, except maybe right on the public beach, which would be asking for it...

[Woody Jones]

James Baldwin has an interesting website where he talks about building legs for his Pearson Triton.

http://www.atomvoyages.com/articles/...some-legs.html

I believe he also has written an article for Cruising World magazine that describes it in full detail.

Good Luck.

Woody

[gilberj]

Getting the bottom scrubbed by a diver should not be a major problem unless you are using a sloughing paint. I'd not do an in the water bottom scrub with a sloughing anti-fouling because you are effectively removing your anti-fouling which seems counter productive. I did used to do a bit of a scrape around the waterline, but the thought of making it easier for the growth to return was always there.

[chas]

If you use the boat enough, the bottom paint seems to take care of itself Neglect that at your peril. / Jim

[Ian McColgin]

The tackle are needed because you may need to do a little adjustment and you'll not have the strength to do that with chain or some line without tackle. Goblin had nice big bronze turnbuckles with some real space under the jaws and just above the chainplates so I just ran my shackle through that space. Granuaile's turnbuckles would not allow that so indeed I had to drop a shroud on each side. Added an extra two minutes to the job.

The whole point of ablative paint is for it to come off. A good scrubbing helps reactivate it. That is true of the old toxic paints and the nice green friendly E-Paint.

If you are scrubbing rather than sanding or scraping, you are taking off some paint, to be sure, but mostly paint that's already depleated and you're not removing anything like what happens with a sander up on dry land. So there are no actual regulations against in any jurisdiciton I know of, though there could be an officious harbormaster who thinks people should not do stuff without paying a boatyard.

There's more of a legitimate issue if you're using a traditional oil and lead topside paint and you are sloppy and drip in the water. Work clean.

G'luck

[jalmberg]

The tackle are needed because you may need to do a little adjustment and you'll not have the strength to do that with chain or some line without tackle. Goblin had nice big bronze turnbuckles with some real space under the jaws and just above the chainplates so I just ran my shackle through that space. Granuaile's turnbuckles would not allow that so indeed I had to drop a shroud on each side. Added an extra two minutes to the job.

The whole point of ablative paint is for it to come off. A good scrubbing helps reactivate it. That is true of the old toxic paints and the nice green friendly E-Paint.

If you are scrubbing rather than sanding or scraping, you are taking off some paint, to be sure, but mostly paint that's already depleated and you're not removing anything like what happens with a sander up on dry land. So there are no actual regulations against in any jurisdiciton I know of, though there could be an officious harbormaster who thinks people should not do stuff without paying a boatyard.

There's more of a legitimate issue if you're using a traditional oil and lead topside paint and you are sloppy and drip in the water. Work clean.

G'luck

The more I think of it, the more I like the idea of the tackle and chainplates... It would be good to be able to adjust it for variations on the bottom. The whole LFH design seems about perfect, in fact.

I do use ablative paint, which does pretty well, but around the middle of the summer, when the water is really warm, a scrubbing seems to help. I didn't know that scrubbing reactivated anything, but that matches up with my experience... One (LIGHT!) scrubbing in mid summer and another one at the end of the summer seems to do the trick.

Actually, 'scrubbing' is not really the word... 'wiping' is more like it. I use a diver because it's hard to get the bottom of the keel clean from the dock, and that's where the worst growth is.

Anyway, thanks for all the info on the legs. I think I'll give it a try. A de-lux set of legs will be cheaper than one haul out. A good investment.

[Sayla]

Too many rocks around here for that. I don't think I could find a rock-free beach or sand spit, except maybe right on the public beach, which would be asking for it...

I'd be thinking that would be a paid opportunity for a semi-annual voyage somewhere; with a scraper and a can of paint and a tarp and a garbage can to catch the junk - it's really only about the environment - if you can deal with that bit, there's lots of ways (lean against a jetty, or lay down on a beach, which is hands down the easiest (and safest) way to work on it too, not overhead - beaching legs won't help clean up the mess

google earth it to find somewhere

sayla

[jalmberg]

If you use the boat enough, the bottom paint seems to take care of itself Neglect that at your peril. / Jim

It's funny that you mention that...

I keep my boat in a fairly protected marina over the winter. By spring, there is 3 or 4 inches of weed on the bottom (yes, weed does grow in the winter!)

But when I move the boat to its summer mooring, where there is a 2 knot tidal current, within a week or so, all the weed is gone. Pretty amazing how little the water has to move for ablative paint to work.

[chas]

I've seen the mess caused by scrubbing cruising boats while the tide drops and repainting the antifoul ahead of the flood and don't believe that should be concentrated in one place, released into the water or not. We have big tides out here, which allows for a proper job. There are still some fine grids available for the purpose; just no pressurewashing or power sanding. A paint scraper seems to do the best job for me and I have enough time to tarp for and control the residue. A light scrubbing seems to prepare the surface for bottom paint. That being said, the last bottom job was done on the hard last summer and the jury is still out as to it's effectiveness. / Jim

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

Also, run some lines fore and aft from the bottom of the leg to make sure it doesn't 'fold up' inadvertently when the tide ebbs and the load comes on. (The photo in Post #11 shows some, although I'd increase the angle by having them extend further towards the ends of the vessel.)

Mike

[Ian McColgin]

As Wooden Boat Fittings notes, fore and aft lines are needed in the English type legs that are meant to work tide cycle after tide cycle unattended. The LFH type are meant to be used in changing conditions and must be reset for any tide. Since they are planted after the boat's grounded, there's no worry about fore and aft movement.

[skaraborgcraft]

We call them sheer-legs in the uk. I fitted a pair to my Hartley Tasman,which allowed for drying out anywhere. As Ian points out, they were rather big and bulky,but they found a home on top of the coachroof each side of the solid tender,and where put to use in places where the tide was suffiecient to dry out,or even partially.....some good choice of spots to moor in.
One thing to be aware of is sandy bottoms. We dried out for a scrub and paint once we got down to the Algarve,had been hard on the ground for almost an hour,when she went over onto her bilge,and i can only assume the sand was full of air,and so the leg sank right in. We had checked out the beach previously,and other boats had used it. We scrubbed off and painted anyway. The biggest surprise was that leg kept her pinned down as the tide came in,not what i was expecting,and with the water 1 inch from the top of the cockpit coaming, the nut holding the leg bolt was removed from inside,and after a sharp blow with a hammer, she popped upright. It took two tides to dig that leg out. Always check the bottom!

[Ian McColgin]

The UK sheer-legs usually don't have the disc or whatever that we put on the bottom of the LFH type legs. It does not take much. Mine were 2' diameter circles knocked out of some plywood from a highway sign that had broken and fallen down in a storm - must have been about 3/4" thick - with an X made by 2x4s to firm it up. Where the leg landed on the X atop the disc was somewhat dished to accept the end of the leg and a hole through for the spike. The hole through the disc for the spike was maybe 2x the diameter of the spike, which was 1/2" iron rod, and the leg was a 4x4, rounded at the bottom to fit the dishout in the disc. The bottom of the hole was a bigger diameter - hole really a hollow cone small end up - so the disc could slope to fit various bottoms. I had a light line to the rim of the disc, nice and slack. When setting up once the disc was on the water surface and floating, I'd spear it and push on down. When removing sometimes the mud suction held the disc a little until pulling up tightened the line and peeled it up.

I could probably have done with somewhat shorter spikes - 4" would have been enough - and maybe smaller discs.

The legs needed to be long enough to be comfortably more than the draft plus topsides heights. I liked about 3' more to give room to set up the tackle. The tops of the legs were rounded down leaving a shoulder where it went to square. That rounded area was set up with a very serious lashing nice and tight that held a long D shackle U down so the pin could be backed out, a shackle to the block dropped over, and the pin screwed back in. Easy and fast set up.

Wish all this had happened in the days of digital cameras and that I'd not lost photos in the losses of Goblin and Granuaile. As well. Words are worth 1/1000th of a picture. . .

[skaraborgcraft]

2ft plates are huge,but if flat,easy to store. The "feet" on my legs were around 9in square,which had kept her upright on all kinds of bottoms,including sand,before and after that incident. The loadings on the feet were not excessive being only 4 in above the base of the keel,and several times we were able to move from one leg to the other with two people leaning over the opposite rail. The LFH leg sounds like a good compromise for occasional drying.

[Ian McColgin]

scaraorgcraft is dead right - my "ski pole basekts" were way bigger than needed, and the two approaches are for slightly different purposes. The LFH approach I used was great for drying out a tended boat in diverse places, but would have been as useless for unattended drying out at a mooring as the British sheer legs would be up a strange creek. Each approach has its place.

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

... as do bilge keels --

but that's a different story.

Mike

[johngsandusky]

I've grounded my ketch for cleaning, but not painting. Think of the potential fines if you are violating conservation laws. If my boat were 23', I'd consider a good trailer, and shear legs to lower the rig. Then you can work on it in the driveway.