Results 1 to 36 of 36

Thread: Outboard motor wells

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    northern neck of virginia
    Posts
    1,053

    Default Outboard motor wells

    I simply don't understand the advantage of having an outboard motor in a well. OK, in a sailboat with a rudder, I understand. But, why? I don't see why you'd need to haul a gillnet over the stern. If you're fighting a big fish with rod and reel, tilt the motor up, reach around it with the rod....But in a pleasure boat???? Why rob yourself of the space? Asthetics? The runnabout in the current WB mag, OK it hides the outboard, But the Nexus in a current thread? Nice looking boat, but, why the well? It would look just as good if not better off the stern to me.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    South Puget Sound/summer Eastern carib./winter
    Posts
    9,418

    Default Re: Outboard motor wells

    Would probably go faster, cheaper, safer and quieter too. An inch per foot BEHIND the transom, not on it.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    FL. USA
    Posts
    6,255

    Default Re: Outboard motor wells

    Ever had a large Snook or a Tarpon, Tuna etc on rod and reel? There is no lifting the rod over a tilted outboard, especially when it's bent from the handle on out. You'll be doing good to keep from breaking the rod off on the gunwale. Outboards have stolen a few trophies from me over the years.

    A lot of outboard motors used to have 15" shafts. Think of where that puts the notch for the motor with regards to the waterline and a splashwell to keep the sea out also uses real estate in the hull. Now add a following sea breaking on bars when you are at the home stretch. Hang the motor off a closed stern on a bracket? Not practical in the days when motors started with a rope, and heaven forbid it foul a plug, shear a pin or stall at the wrong time.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Lake Champlain, Vermont
    Posts
    1,261

    Default Re: Outboard motor wells

    Not sure I understand the reason for the question. There have been a number of successful designs with a broad following that feature a motor well. The Handy Billy (http://www.transomboatworks.com/Hand...otorLaunch.htm), Ninegret (http://www.atkinboatplans.com/Oar/Ninigret.html) and Nina (http://www.bateau.com/studyplans/LB2....htm?prod=LB22) are three examples and I am sure there are others. People buy the plans, build the boats because they like the look and actually, performance, as well. All of these designs feature low horsepower requirements for an easily driven economical craft.

    Oldad some say potato, some say patato

  5. #5

    Default Re: Outboard motor wells

    I would add Doug Hylan's Top Hat design to the list Handy Billy, Ninegret and Nina. A very nice 26' boat that performs very well with just 50 H.P.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    SE Mass
    Posts
    493

    Default Re: Outboard motor wells

    Redwing 18 from CMD, with a 10 horse four stroke. Quiet and leisurely. I have been told by more than a few knowledgeable folks that she is beautiful. Not that I needed any convincing.
    g.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Duncan, Vancouver Island
    Posts
    23,309

    Default Re: Outboard motor wells

    On a small boat with a small, tiller controlled motor it can make quite a difference to have the well in regards to the weight distribution of both motor and operator, especially on a sailboat where the motor clamps to a transom bracket and not the transom itself, pushing everything even further aft. Without the well even tiller extensions are often of no use on a sailboat because typically you end up with a situation like this where the tiller (and throttle) cannot fold down over the top of the transom and into the cockpit.

    Last edited by JimD; 05-22-2012 at 12:21 PM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    3,449

    Default Re: Outboard motor wells

    In favour of the well...

    1. The prop can be infront of the rudder, so the prop wash can improve turning speed.
    2. The prop is closer to the boats centre, so its less likely to lift clear of the water in a following sea as the boat pitches. This loses drive and get very noisy and stressfull.
    3. At close quarters, an outboard mounted off the stern is a pig to use. To change gear and go astern, you have to be looking back and leaning back out and over and down your transom on some designs, just at the time when you need to be adjusting the tiller and looking forward under control. An outboard mounted next to the helmsmen (and this is still possible with a small run about off the transom) is much easier to control while looking forward and steering.
    4. The weight of an engine is a consideration. 4 strokes weigh more than 2 strokes that weigh more than oars. Some boats aren't designed to have the weight of an outboard hung off the transom in the first place, weighing the transom into the water, causing a drag. Also the transom might not have been built strong enough in the first place to mount such a weight and the connection to the planking might not be strong enough for the thrust.
    5.Its easier to lift an engine up and out of the boat when its not hung out over the transom. Its a back injury to lift it up onto the boat from there.
    6. The rudder of a sail boat is free to turn without hinderance if there's no outboard causing a partial obstruction.
    7. When tilted up at the transom, on some sail boats this can interfere with the mainsheet horse and sheet.
    8. Its easier to stand above a small outboard and refill an integral tank when its not off the transom.
    9. An engine well with a flap over the bottom doubles as a live bait tank or toilet throne if your so inclined.
    10. Its less obvious/ easy to be stolen in a well where its less visible.
    11. It looks more classy on boats like Ninigret and Gartsides inboard outboards to have the outboard enclosed within.
    12. Inbaord outboards are also protected from the weather and UV more easily.
    13. On swinging moorings outboards on transoms can swing into other boats if they are not swinging together as they lift of a drying berth and gouge an other boats topsides with the sharp metal propeller and leg.
    14. Changing from an inboard diesel to an outboard in a well on some sail boats is the way some like it. It avoid the weight, servicing, fuel issues, stink and noise/ vibration of a diesel and servicing is easier and cleaner. The outboard can be lifted out and kept indoors over winter clean and tidy unlike the diesel. With saildrive props it can still give enough oompf.
    15. Double enders don't have a transom.
    16. If its mounted more towards the middle of the boat in a well or side of the boat, you can rotate an outboard to 90 degrees. Now you can move the boat sideways like a bow thruster, for greater manouverability options close in, when getting into a small space between moored boats.

    All depends on the size, type of boat and use as to what suits.

    Ed
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 05-22-2012 at 12:24 PM.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Lake Champlain, Vermont
    Posts
    1,261

    Default Re: Outboard motor wells

    There is the consideration that it takes up usable space inside the boat but the same must be said for space lost by any inboard (http://www.classicboat.com/id-17chri...-1946-1950.htm) or I/O.

    Oldad hopes he's gonna launch his boat (motor in a well) Thursday

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Duncan, Vancouver Island
    Posts
    23,309

    Default Re: Outboard motor wells

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldad View Post
    There is the consideration that it takes up usable space inside the boat but the same must be said for space lost by any inboard (http://www.classicboat.com/id-17chri...-1946-1950.htm) or I/O.
    The well is putting usable space to good use.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    South Puget Sound/summer Eastern carib./winter
    Posts
    9,418

    Default Re: Outboard motor wells

    I'm talking about power boats.
    most, I dunno, maybe all, planing boats will go faster , cheaper, safer and quieter with a bracket.
    I do not fish, but some fishing boats like a bracket for fish fighting cuz the boat backs better. Big fish, I recon.
    Yup, the engine sticks out, how many of us let our boat bang into stuff to protect the outboard?It's the other way around for me.
    I guess we cannot tell on a Ninigret or Redwing without actually doing it.
    Beauty is in the eyes........
    When I see a well, I see inefficiency.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    St. Mary's County, MD
    Posts
    878

    Default Re: Outboard motor wells

    There are a couple good reasons to use a well on an outboard skiff. If none of the situations where they provide advantages apply to you, then you are better off without it.

    1) working or fishing boats where gear needs to be handled around the stern. The well gets the engine and prop forward so that lines and nets can be pulled up astern without catching on the engine or prop. Some workboats have wells that are closer to the bow than they are to the stern (Florida Mullet Skiffs).

    2) a boat that will routinely be handled in very rough, choppy water. Having the engine and prop further forward and under the boat reduces the instances of the prop being out of the water and over-revving the engine.

    3) cases where the owner has an aversion to the appearance of the outboard; maybe he has some vintage looking boat or maybe he just can't stand to look at the thing

    If none of these describes you, then put the outboard on the transom; as you say, it'll be a bit more efficient and there'll be just that much more planing surface.

    Bob

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    South Puget Sound/summer Eastern carib./winter
    Posts
    9,418

    Default Re: Outboard motor wells

    If none of these describes you, then put the outboard on the transom; as you say, it'll be a bit more efficient and there'll be just that much more planing surface.

    Bob[/QUOTE]
    I'm not meaning the transom, I mean an inch per foot, approximately , beyond the transom.
    The Outboard gets lifter higher and wheel gets cleaner water.
    The Boat does not need MORE planing area, it needs better planing area.Clean, fair and sharp. A well make a lotta "dirty" water.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    St. Augustine, FL
    Posts
    2,747

    Default Re: Outboard motor wells

    In some boats using a small outboard in an inset well provides for better leverage for lifting it up or down, manual starting, and simply removing it entirely and laying it lower in the boat for sailing. It all depends on the boat and the condition of the old guy's back that's doing the lifting. John Welsford was reluctant to OK an inset motor well on my SCAMP but after I explained to him my circumstances of already owning a somewhat heavy 47 lb. 4 HP and already owning a Caledonia Yawl for larger crews, he went along with my plan for an inset motor well. All boats are compromises. With my SCAMP, I was willing and able to give up crew size to make things easier on this 62 year old back of mine.


  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    138

    Default Re: Outboard motor wells

    Quote Originally Posted by kenjamin View Post
    In some boats using a small outboard in an inset well provides for better leverage for lifting it up or down, manual starting, and simply removing it entirely and laying it lower in the boat for sailing. It all depends on the boat and the condition of the old guy's back that's doing the lifting. John Welsford was reluctant to OK an inset motor well on my SCAMP but after I explained to him my circumstances of already owning a somewhat heavy 47 lb. 4 HP and already owning a Caledonia Yawl for larger crews, he went along with my plan for an inset motor well. All boats are compromises. With my SCAMP, I was willing and able to give up crew size to make things easier on this 62 year old back of mine.

    Oh my! Thats beautifully done!
    I started this life with nothing.
    Kept most of it .......

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    FL. USA
    Posts
    6,255

    Default Re: Outboard motor wells

    Most of the mullet net boats got retired with the net ban. Shame really, a lot of us learned boat building on these very boats, along with the true and practical meaning of "work boat finish."

    Whatever few that remain, have been turned into marine research vessels for the wildlife and fisheries divisions. Last one I worked on before this one was for the Manatee Research Team. I do see that one around occasionally. This one is from a local community college. I most likely know the builder of this boat. He was one of the last builders to specialize in these particular type of boats. They look awkward and drive a bit different but are actually quite agile, especially with a few hundred yards of net spilling off of the back at speed. Most of these boats up to around 23ft, would get along with a full load of fish and gear with 50-60 hp. Mullet fishermen were typically overworked and underpaid in feast/famine fashion. Wonderful stuff to my eye. I guess you would kind of have to have been there.

    Center console was mounted afterward. This likely would have been controlled with an extended tiller. The helmsman would stand at the bow with a sash weight that was attached to the net. When spotting a school of mullet, he would throw the weight to start the net and circle the entire school of fish. Then would either leave for awhile, or spank the water with a push pole to scare the fish into the net, or both.

    A friend and I caught what we thought to be the biggest school of mullet ever, only to find it was sail cats, and spent the rest of the night untangling about 200 of them and their abundant slime from his father's net.


    Motor in a forward well. This is polyester over D-fir marine exterior plywood and I bet this boat is no less than 20 years old.


    The lower unit need not sit too deep and can run better than you might think tilted even higher. These things will 'run' in 12" and I have been in them that would fly across shallower mounds, briefly anyway. Pull the motor up and it will nearly float on dew.


    View of the tunnel as it exits the stern. This also helps the boat track straight, even with the forward mounted engine. I would still use one of these for a fishing boat in spite of the many other choices, just for the room alone.


    They carry a lot of equipment and researchers/students in this boat. They only use 2- 6 gallon portable fuel tanks.
    Last edited by pipefitter; 06-26-2012 at 04:07 AM.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    FL. USA
    Posts
    6,255

    Default Re: Outboard motor wells

    A good video of the boats and the process.


  18. #18
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    St. Augustine, FL
    Posts
    2,747

    Default Re: Outboard motor wells

    Hey Pipefitter,

    Probably don't need to tell you but those sail fin cats are pretty darn tasty if prepared like shark meat with a milk and lemon juice soak. Don't think they freeze well but fresh – very good and no small bones to avoid. Tight lines, kenjamin

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    FL. USA
    Posts
    6,255

    Default Re: Outboard motor wells

    Quote Originally Posted by kenjamin View Post
    Hey Pipefitter,

    Probably don't need to tell you but those sail fin cats are pretty darn tasty if prepared like shark meat with a milk and lemon juice soak. Don't think they freeze well but fresh – very good and no small bones to avoid. Tight lines, kenjamin
    Well, I have known about this and they will smoke to an edible state as well. It has been some years gone by now since I figured out that if I need to trick it into something edible, use only as a last resort to thwart starvation. That goes for yellow tail jacks and king mackeral as well.

    Fortunately for me, there is enough tasty critters around either by hook or cast net that I can pretty much choose what I like, unlike poor Erster up there, who has to actually journey out to the oceans deep in wooden boats that he is cursed to build from here on out, I'm afraid. Matter of fact, it appears he has to have a different boat for every species he targets. :-p

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Glen Ellen, Calif
    Posts
    8

    Default Re: Outboard motor wells

    I put a well in my 15' Whilly Boat and I'm not really pleased with the noise amplification as the hull acts as a megaphone. The motor of choice is a 4 stroke, 2hp Honda. As members have stated, every decision has it's positives and negatives. Chuck.
    Last edited by woodchuck60; 06-27-2012 at 12:36 AM. Reason: additional info

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    North Central Vermont
    Posts
    17

    Default Re: Outboard motor wells

    A year after these posts were made....

    I just built a motor well into my Oughtred John Dory (18 1/2 ft) per Iain's plans, and had a trial run yesterday in Lake Champlain. I am using a 2.5 LEHR propane motor. With no gear and just me an my son, she performed well. However, on the return run against 2+ ft waves some water began coming over the top. Oughtred shows a 'membrane' over the hole on plane with the bottom, with a slit for the shaft/prop, which I haven't done yet. I envision truck inner tube material but would like ideas as to what may be more appropriate, and how to attach it. Because I'm loathe to put any screws into the bottom, I would like suggestions. Another idea is some sort of boot around the motor at the top of the well, shock-corded. Doesn't sound elegant....

    I'll attach a link with pictures, showing all, with no motor and with/without a well-bucket inserted with hatch in place, for sailing mode. I'm sure there are purists out there that will be offended -- My boat is set up to sail with a lug rig, but I wanted this for some motor cruising capacity, and for ferrying folks and gear for island camping. I did a lot of meditating on this modification, and gave up some things (space, esthetics) in the change... The LEHR has no reverse, but spins around to aim the screw in the opposite direction.
    Thanks!

    https://plus.google.com/photos/10000...78723374457662

  22. #22
    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    West Boothbay Harbor, Maine
    Posts
    21,684

    Default Re: Outboard motor wells

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Wilkinson View Post
    I would add Doug Hylan's Top Hat design to the list Handy Billy, Ninegret and Nina. A very nice 26' boat that performs very well with just 50 H.P.
    He's got larger designs as well, at 29' and 45'. See the Custom Designs link here: http://www.dhylanboats.com/
    Last edited by rbgarr; 07-01-2013 at 02:48 PM.
    "Now and then we had a hope that if we lived and were good, God would permit us to be pirates." ~ Mark Twain


  23. #23
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    1,101

    Default Re: Outboard motor wells

    I know it is plastic and a sailing boat but....

    I have had 22 footers with outboards on the transom

    bloody frightening when a chop lifts the prop out of the water

    and also a 5 or 6hp is a lot of weight for your back

    not a worry when I was 30 - more of a worry now that I am 58

    the current boat is a canoe sterned 23 footer with a well and a tunnel

    I have two outboards

    a Honda 2.3 which I use when I am sailing in benign conditions and a Tohatsu 6hp for when the chips are down or I need to motor a long way or when I need to re-charge the batteries


















    the tunnel is like a life boat and allows me to use the short shaft Honda

    the long shaft digs even deeper and allows me to vector


    the upsides are as follows

    1/better grip on the water

    2/I cannot drop the outboard over the side

    3/the prop wash hits the rudder and gives better steerage

    4/aesthetics

    there is only one downsaide and that is that the engine is at the centre of the parabolic reflector of the stern

    this is terrible with the air cooled honda which is a noisy son of a gun - but it is really efficient and it also warms the cockpit

    the short shaft lifts clear of the water flow across the hull - the long shaft will only kick up a bit


    with the 6hp Tohatsu I get 4.5 knots at a quarter throttle

    6.5 or 7.00 with it going full blatt

    I used to have an inboard in the previous boat but it was 50 years old and I came to hate it

    this way I have two outboards on the boat and two in the garage

    so I love my outboard well and would never buy another boat without one

    Dylan

    http://www.keepturningleft.co.uk/gal...mages-for-pbo/
    Last edited by dylan winter; 07-01-2013 at 04:59 PM.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    964

    Default Re: Outboard motor wells

    I put a well in my last one, and am going to put a well in my one I am building now. They are both 14 footers with no lost space. The gas tank and battery go on either side of the motor so the motor is only occupying space that would not be used anyway because of the gear back there. Also, it puts me and the weight of the motor further foward for better trimming and faster planing. Thats why i like a well. Also, working on the motor isnt as dangerous either.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Outboard motor wells

    The North Carolina sounds used to be full of 16 to 23 ft well skiffs, used for one man shrimp trawling operations. You would pull the net in over the transom, and cull the catch as it came aboard. The motor well box made a good culling board. The engine was out of the way, no way to get the net tangled up in it, either in the prop or power head. With the motor that far forward, say 3 ft plus in a 16 ft skiff, it would turn 180 degrees in about its own length. Great for pulling up narrow creeks where the shrimp like to be at night. We had one 30+ years ago, sold it, haven't heard the end of that yet! My next project is to build another one, maybe 17 or 18 ft, for the wife to play with. Incidentally, the natural buoyancy of the juniper kept it from sinking at the dock several times, even with a battery and old Evinrude 35 in place. It had small fish swimming in it, and still had about 5 or 6 inches of freeboard.

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    FL. USA
    Posts
    6,255

    Default Re: Outboard motor wells

    The outboard in a well is not near as cumbersome as thwarts. Look at the engineering people used to go through to remedy that and it was still going to be inconvenient. In the Simmons skiffs, the stern rakes 35 degrees. If you stand at the deck/stern juncture, the top of the stern is still well aft of your standing position. I had no idea what a good seat the outboard would make at times, at just the right height of an average chair. Feet on the stern or on the raised deck. I can push pole one handed just kicking it along sitting on the motor. One guy called me a show off.

    The motor has never been in the way. These days, even if you optimized the space, someone would fill it with something unnecessary. I can stow extra (think removable hull flotation that will keep the power head above water) life jackets, my 8 ft net, spare prop and tool kit etc back there, all out of the way.



    It's also self bailing in the event any water comes aboard through the well.


    And drains out through the well sides.

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Lakebay, WA
    Posts
    138

    Default Re: Outboard motor wells

    never liked the outboard hanging off the bracket on my 23' sailboat..........but now I have 18' motorboat that have temporary outboard ....5.5HP......but the bracket is about 5" to high....need to lower it......don't know if it will be easier to just make a new one or modify existing one ( and how) - looking for ideas for a bracket that can be easily attached for temporary use...??
    Last edited by 2dogsnight; 08-11-2013 at 04:57 PM. Reason: ad picture

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    New Zealand's Far North
    Posts
    5,841

    Default Re: Outboard motor wells

    This type is commonly used here for your type of installation.




    http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/boat...-624187238.htm
    There is nothing quite as permanent as a good temporary repair.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Outboard motor wells

    Hmmm...From the pic, I would have thought the motor was plenty low, maybe too much so. Could you make a second board, with a spacer to hold it out from the first board, and dropped down? One thing i would do is attach a safety cable to the motor, and anchor it inside the boat.

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Lakebay, WA
    Posts
    138

    Default Re: Outboard motor wells

    Quote Originally Posted by Watergoat View Post
    Hmmm...From the pic, I would have thought the motor was plenty low, maybe too much so. Could you make a second board, with a spacer to hold it out from the first board, and dropped down? One thing i would do is attach a safety cable to the motor, and anchor it inside the boat.
    water pump has to be at a water level - not self primed - don't want to install a sail boat outboard mount.......doesn't go with the motorboat - plus I want something less permanent........going tomorrow to weld shop to see if they can help me out.......need another 2.5" .......that's the problem with fix mount - no adjustment

  31. #31

    Default Re: Outboard motor wells

    Could you just mount the board 2.5" lower, at least long enough to try it?

  32. #32
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Lakebay, WA
    Posts
    138

    Default Re: Outboard motor wells

    Quote Originally Posted by Watergoat View Post
    Could you just mount the board 2.5" lower, at least long enough to try it?
    metal frame is not wide enough to let the motor lower another 2.5".....board mounting brackets
    need to be moved

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Lakebay, WA
    Posts
    138

    Default Re: Outboard motor wells

    Took the frame to the welder and have it work on......took the boat to the marina today...looks like adjustment will work!
    .......ready to move on to another projects



    thank you for all your help guys!
    Last edited by 2dogsnight; 08-19-2013 at 12:05 AM.

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    South Puget Sound/summer Eastern carib./winter
    Posts
    9,418

    Default Re: Outboard motor wells

    Have you run the boat yet? It looks to me like the quick water from the main wheel might just lick at the outboard bracket!
    ( In which case, putting it off to the side may help)
    The boat looks terrific
    bruce

  35. #35
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Lakebay, WA
    Posts
    138

    Default Re: Outboard motor wells

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    Have you run the boat yet? It looks to me like the quick water from the main wheel might just lick at the outboard bracket!
    ( In which case, putting it off to the side may help)
    The boat looks terrific
    bruce
    Thanks Bruce
    I didn run the boat yet, I may not be able this summer - so much stuff to do...I am getting close though.
    Wet spot on the bracket is from getting boat off the trailer.
    Inboard is out for overhaul......it's an Atomic4 25HP...BTW - do you know any reliable shop in our area that knows Atomic4??
    Exhaust is off and that and shaft opening are plugged with an expendable rubber plugs.
    ......still have water leak somewhere.......have to epoxy any suspicious spot I can find along the keel Interesting that the water is getting into the boat, but is not leaking out......

  36. #36
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Zürichsee
    Posts
    720

    Default Re: Outboard motor wells

    I'm just gonna drag this thread back out of the back blocks.

    Anyone seen any good installations of outboards in wells in larger sailing vessels? I'm talking 30-40ft here. Plywood.

    I'm particularly interested if any one has great ideas to have integrated doors that seal off the outboard well when the motor is not in use (and in use...), and the commensurate lifting mechanisms to raise and lower the outboard. Yes generally Inboards are used in this situation, but the weight and simplicity and overall cost burden of an outboard makes me strongly in favour of putting an outboard in a well which lifts and lowers on rails or the likes through some kind of opening doors.

    Anyone seen an installation like this?

    R
    R
    __________________
    Si Dieu n'existait pas, il faudrait l'inventer -- Voltaire

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •