Pride and Stability

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  • Roger Long
    Senior Member
    • Mar 2005
    • 1794

    #31
    Re: Pride and Stability

    A couple years after the Coast Guard inquiry, two senior captains of the “Pride” and I found a quiet bar corner at an ASTA conference and put everything we knew about the capsizing on the table along with the beers. We traced the event practically minute by minute and I doubt that a more informed or objective analysis of the tragedy has ever been undertaken. This discussion has caused me to say often over the years that it was as much a control failure as a stability deficiency. However, the stability characteristics precluded recovery.

    The “Pride” was certainly not an inevitable accident waiting to happen as were the other capsizes I have studied. I think the “Pride” could well have been still sailing today. The probability of that outcome would have been significantly increased by a better understanding of her actual stability characteristics and how it affected her mission planning and operation.

    The Coast Guard inquiry left the Pride organization comfortable enough about Gillmer’s handling of the stability issues on the first vessel that he was selected to design the replacement. A press release stated that the new ship would meet the strictest Coast Guard requirements, including carrying paying passengers on ocean routes. I remember thinking, This I’ve got to see. The whole sailing school vessel regulatory effort had been based on the impossibility of getting sufficient sail on ocean route passenger vessel for all except a very narrow range of types. Baltimore Clippers were certainly not in this group and the first sail plans I saw released had me wondering how much all the carbon fiber necessary to make it work was going to cost.

    I became a board member of the American Sail Training Association and was the founding chairman of their technical committee. My company was selected to design a full rigged ship billed as “America’s Tall Ship” and to be named Discovery. A few months after the plans for the Pride of Baltimore II were announced, I was sitting with the executive director of the “Discovery” organization in the outer office of the Coast Guard officer in charge of the group that reviews and approves vessel plans. We were waiting to discuss our new project with him when another USCG officer went into his office through a side door.

    I could hear him say, “We’ve got these plans for the new Pride of Baltimore here and there are no stability calculations. The designer says he wants us to do them. We never do that, do we?”

    The officer at the desk looked out and saw us sitting in the outer office and held up his hand. The other officer closed the door. I’m sure the quiet murmurs we heard after that concerned the fact that submittal of stability calculations is always required. The Coast Guard prepares their own, but to insure that the calculations are independently done twice. I don’t know if Gillmer ever submitted his own calculations but the ship never received certification remotely close to what was promised at the beginning of the project.

    I have no basis for reservations about the stability of the new ship and would be glad to sail on her myself. However, the way in which everything about the stability of these vessels was handled will always bother me.

    Not long after this meeting, I received a subpoena from the IRS and the Discovery tall ship project quickly folded up into trial and punishment for people who had been my friends. The unpaid bills forced the closing of my design office. I turned my back on sail and entered the oceanographic research vessel design phase of my career which has been very productive and satisfying.

    The Pride has kept resurfacing in my life as books have been published. Many years later, I saw the designer’s beautiful book about the ship at a friend’s house. Leafing through it, I read:

    However, another and most troublesome attack on the Pride's credibility was deliberately introduced through the news media by an employee of a ship design firm in New England. This report charged that in a study prepared for the Coast Guard for certifying the requisite stability of sail training vessels according to certain criteria, the criteria of the Pride of Baltimore showed her to be the least stable all sample sail training vessel selected for comparison, with a stability range of only 76 degrees. This was purely a contrived criticism, factually and technically incorrect, put forward for inexplicable reasons. The study was wisely marked by the federal investigators as not to be admitted into evidence. Its use as a reference of comparison was prejudicial.
    I remember thinking it was merciful that an old man wasn’t carrying guilt to his grave but that the story needed to be told someday. A mutual friend later told me, “Tom wakes up in the night hearing screams.” This conversation was largely the reason I waited so long to tell this story.

    I have told this story to the authors of three books on the sinking but none really grappled with it. The pieces of the story are there spread out through three different books and some magazine articles but it would take more time and knowledge than most readers posses to assemble them. I hope this thread will clarify some technical aspects of the tragedy and how the handling of the technical issues may have affected decision about her operation. The failure of the management and operators of the ill fated vessel to better understand her stability characteristics will always be central to the story, regardless of what conclusions may be drawn about its contribution to the loss of a ship and four lives.
    Roger Long

    Comment

    • Gerarddm
      #RESIST
      • Feb 2010
      • 32546

      #32
      Re: Pride and Stability

      Wow.
      Gerard>
      Albuquerque, NM

      Next election, vote against EVERY Republican, for EVERY office, at EVERY level. Be patriotic, save the country.

      Comment

      • Andrew Craig-Bennett
        Who?
        • Aug 1999
        • 28494

        #33
        Re: Pride and Stability

        A very interesting account.
        Last edited by Andrew Craig-Bennett; 05-22-2012, 10:38 AM.
        IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

        Comment

        • tigerregis
          Banned
          • Jun 2009
          • 519

          #34
          Re: Pride and Stability

          Thank you, Sir. Very enlightening through its clarity.

          Comment

          • zauberberg
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2004
            • 280

            #35
            Re: Pride and Stability

            Not only in banana republic: There is on the one hand the formal world of laws, regulations, organisation, processes, and then there is on the other hand the world of human beeings, acting in this formal world, connected to each others by often invisible bands of interests, personal goals, dependencies. Individual interests are bundling up, often silently, and togther drive a process into a specific direction, sometimes along the edge of legality, sometimes clearly over the limits. And as you remarked it's the personality / integrity of the key personal (together with the cultural background of all players) and the example they give by living and acting that makes all the difference. Designing the formal world in a way so that it becomes independent from it's players is impossible

            The question of course now goes to each of us: How do we act, what are the standards that we apply to ourselves, how do we resist the temptation to make use of the always existing "opportunities" granted by circumstancies and connections. The world seems to be full of examples how people, initially maybe of good intent, are gradually drawn into situtations that turn out to be just too demanding.
            Thomas
            -----------------------------------
            panta rei

            Comment

            • Paul Pless
              pinko commie tree hugger
              • Oct 2003
              • 124949

              #36
              Re: Pride and Stability

              seems almost criminally negligent
              Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

              Comment

              • Uncle Duke
                Just this guy...
                • Jun 2005
                • 4692

                #37
                Re: Pride and Stability

                Thank you very, very much, Roger, for the clean and clear explanations. Absolutely fascinating.
                Sometimes you've gotta leave the kibble out where the slow dogs can get some....
                ... Roy Blount, Jr.

                Comment

                • Thad
                  Senior Member
                  • May 2000
                  • 6367

                  #38
                  Re: Pride and Stability

                  Is that all Roger? Is more known about her handling before the capsize?

                  Comment

                  • Roger Long
                    Senior Member
                    • Mar 2005
                    • 1794

                    #39
                    Re: Pride and Stability

                    Originally posted by Thad
                    Is that all Roger? Is more known about her handling before the capsize?
                    Isn't that enough?

                    Since there were survivors, the handling and events just before the capsize are very well understood and covered in the three books on the subject.
                    Roger Long

                    Comment

                    • Thad
                      Senior Member
                      • May 2000
                      • 6367

                      #40
                      Re: Pride and Stability

                      Not a complaint, your history of the PoB stability issues is much appreciated. Might have to read the books. Thanks.

                      Comment

                      • Paul Pless
                        pinko commie tree hugger
                        • Oct 2003
                        • 124949

                        #41
                        Re: Pride and Stability

                        Originally posted by Roger Long
                        Isn't that enough?
                        LOL

                        Can we have a question and answer session at this point?

                        I'd like to know if Gilmer's 'attitude' towards the stability of Pride, extended to any of his other designs?
                        Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

                        Comment

                        • Roger Long
                          Senior Member
                          • Mar 2005
                          • 1794

                          #42
                          Re: Pride and Stability

                          Originally posted by Paul Pless
                          Can we have a question and answer session at this point?
                          That's one of the reasons I decided to release this on a forum like this.

                          I'd like to know if Gilmer's 'attitude' towards the stability of Pride, extended to any of his other designs?
                          I have no way of knowing but I've looked at his designs for years and all of them, including the Pride of Baltimore appear to be fine craft for their purpose. He left a great legacy as a yacht designer. In the case of the Pride, the mission of the vessel changed and he was part of that process. The vessel's stability was actually superior in some significant ways to some of the vessels operating in the Maine windjammer fleet. However, they mostly operate in the same conditions and waters that people sail around in open daysailers.
                          Roger Long

                          Comment

                          • Peerie Maa
                            Old Grey Inquisitive One
                            • Oct 2008
                            • 62519

                            #43
                            Re: Pride and Stability

                            Originally posted by Roger Long
                            The vessel's stability was actually superior in some significant ways to some of the vessels operating in the Maine windjammer fleet. However, they mostly operate in the same conditions and waters that people sail around in open daysailers.
                            This is a key issue. I have read, but cannot remember where, of an American fishing schooner that crossed to seek fish off the Irish coast. She took such a pasting that she was forced to retire home hurt. This image of the Irish coast indicates the power of the sea after building up energy in the Atlantic fetch.
                            It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

                            The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
                            The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

                            Comment

                            • johngsandusky
                              Senior Member
                              • Dec 2003
                              • 5569

                              #44
                              Re: Pride and Stability

                              A compelling article, thank you.
                              I didn't know Gillmer, or any other principle in the Pride's construction. But I will suggest that it was more blind optimism and enthusiasm than criminal negligence. I have occasionally been too optimistic about my position (on the water), or the capability of myself or my vessel. This has led to minor damage or embarassment, no worse. It's how accidents happen, like tailgating or cutting a corner while driving. No room for error. We all should try to learn from this and every sailing accident.
                              It is ironic that her name was "Pride".

                              Comment

                              • Ian McColgin
                                Senior Member
                                • Apr 1999
                                • 51666

                                #45
                                Re: Pride and Stability

                                Roger, what a clear and helpful explanation.

                                As applied to small boats, it might help folk see why a boat like the H-28 or the Rozonante are fine boats despite the lack of self-bailing cockpit. Or why a boat like Marmalade is a fine boat despite the fact that even if the cockpit were more than pretend self-bailing it's still so large that a fill-up from a pooping sea would sink her just as surely as her lack of return stability from a 70 degree knockdown (that's a guess and it could be less) would sink her. Or the wonderfully seaworthy Friendship sloop. All great boats for their purposes, which do not include a North Atlantic winter crossing or life at high southern latitudes.

                                Thank you again.

                                Comment

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