Regarding Unisaws

[potomac]

So I recently got a nice little used Makita table saw and was discussing it on another thread when a forum member mentioning Unisaws prompted me to look around in surrounding areas for one. I did. It is listed as a vintage Delta/ Rockwell Unisaw with a 3 hp/ 220 volt/ 3 phase Delta motor. It's quite old (1971) and seems to be more or less completely of cast iron. Is this the saw I hear so much about? The price is right. I'm not wired for 220, but my workspace is right beside my washer/ dryer so I figure I can branch off that wiring and if I don't run them both at the same time, be okay. I know nothing of this, but think I could figure it out. What do you think? Thanks- Aaron

[Gerarddm]

Yup, that be the one.

[Mrleft8]

Nope, not that one. The 3Ph ones are less expensive because most people don't have 3Ph power at home, and the cost of a new 1Ph Baldor unisaw motor is about $500-$700.....
The saw it's self is actually the same, but the motor is not.
Still a good deal if you can get it for under $500 or so.

[MiddleAgesMan]

I've worked in shops with Unisaws sitting alongside Powermatic models that were similar in specs. I preferred the Powermatics for several reasons.

The gears in old Unisaws tend to require more effort to raise and lower and tilt the blade. A Powermatic of the same age was easy on the hands and wrists; the gears just didn't seem to collect grime that affected the operation.

The other thing I liked was the direction of tilt. Unisaws tilt to the right, toward the fence, Powermatics tilted left away from the fence. For most cuts that is what I preferred.

[potomac]

So two questions:

1. 3 hp at $380 and 2 hp at $500- all things equal which do you choose. The house probably not set up for high power consumption loads. I figure I have 220 at the dryer, the electric stove, and the AC unit.
2. Do you just wait for the Powermatic over the Unisaw?

All these are 10 times better than what I have used in the past. Truth be told, the little Makita I just got for $50 is WAY better than what I have been using which is a pretty good worm drive and a cutting jig.

[JimConlin]

3HP single phase is fine for home use. It is probably set up for 220V, needs wiring similar to your dryer and doesn't draw any more than your dryer.

Does anyone have a feel for whether people are folks are replacing Unisaws and Powermatic 66's with Sawstop machines?

[Paul Pless]

Does anyone have a feel for whether people are folks are replacing Unisaws and Powermatic 66's with Sawstop machines?

I see quite a few of both Powermatics and Unisaws for sale here. Mostly they are woodworkers and small cabinet shops getting out of the business or they are up for auction.

Prices for mid seventies to mid eighties 3HP single phase Unisaws tend to be in the $300 to $600 range here. And Powermatics tend to be around $1000.00 for older ones and closer to $2000.00 for newer ones.

[Gib Etheridge]

I'd go for the 3HP with a plug adaptor or a drier plug on the table saw cord so that the drier and tablesaw can't be run at the same time, one being unplugged in order to plug in the other.

[wizbang 13]

I picked one up just 2 years ago. I am afraid of it, use it for ripping only, I do not wanna get close to the blade. This used to be Joe Trumbly's saw.He taught boat building at Bates for years, built 3 boats with it. It is wired just like the dryer.

[Paul Pless]

I picked one up just 2 years ago. I am afraid of it, use it for ripping only, I do not wanna get close to the blade. This used to be Joe Trumbly's saw.He taught boat building at Bates for years, built 3 boats with it. It is wired just like the dryer.

I used to be afraid of mine too. The best things that I did to become comfortable using it:

1. was to build a long outfeed table
2. bolt everything solidly together (the saw, the outfeed table, the right extension)
3. bolt everything solidly to the floor
4. took a basic tablesaw class.

Now I don't fear it so much, still respect it. But I use it now, more in the last three months than I did in the previous three years.

[Paul Girouard]

I used to be afraid of mine too. The best things that I did to become comfortable using it:

1. was to build a long outfeed table
2. bolt everything solidly together (the saw, the outfeed table, the right extension)
3. bolt everything solidly to the floor
4. took a basic tablesaw class.

Now I don't fear it so much, still respect it. But I use it now, more in the last three months than I did in the previous three years.

That saw , as set-up should be feared. Paul P's right about out-feed and side feed tables. As Wizbang's saw is set-up, it would be a dangerous situations , not just singular situation, waiting to happen! Things could get jammed up in a variety of ways. It easy for me to see why home owners are afraid of their tools, when you look at the funkie way they set things up.

[Gold Rock]

One thing about Unisaws is that, as they have always been top tier units, they frequently were impressed into commercial service. I used a 1950's vintage model for years at work and it was severely worn out. The fence was shot through decades of use/wear and the table area surrounding the blade/insert was worn down several hundredths, making accurate cuts difficult on small pieces. Unisaws, in my opinion, deserve their reputation as a fine tool, but old models can very worn out. Just sayin'.

[Lew Barrett]

What Gold Rock says and expanded on:

I like my Powermatic 66 a great deal. I think the PM66 is/was the best US made saw until the advent of the Saw Stop; heaviest build quality, trunions, etc. I wouldn't trade mine in for an SS (or Unisaw) , but would buy the SS if going from scratch. The Accufence on the PM66 is the equal of the Biesmeyer option on the Delta (IMO), and comes standard whereas the B'meyer was an added cost option for most of the Uni run. The 66 is no longer manufactured but has generally been considered the premium US saw by most people (until the advent of the SS). Modern Deltas and Powermatics are sufficiently different than the US made stuff (Delta is said to be manufacturing in the USA again, but I think....could be wrong....the operative term is actually "assembling") to more closely match certain Euro features like riving knives.

I agree with Paul that the basis of a good cabinet saw starts at the foundation. The fence set up is critical as well, which is why people like the Biesmeyer style; easy to set up, get the right toe out, smooth operating, just better than the old fences.

The reason the Deltas are sometimes called "Delta/Rockwell is that Rockwell purchased Delta in 1945. They sold the company off to Pentair in the early 80s. Rockwell was a good steward of Delta and their production quality was first rate.

Me? Buying new I'd get a SawStop.

For most people the hassle of 3 phase is a deal killer. I like old equipment as much as the next guy , but good saws are going cheaper now; hardly worth the trouble and expense to change a motor and fence system these days on a saw so equipped....

If you can find a used hobbyist's saw, that's the best deal of the bunch.

[SMARTINSEN]

The gears in old Unisaws tend to require more effort to raise and lower and tilt the blade. A Powermatic of the same age was easy on the hands and wrists; the gears just didn't seem to collect grime that affected the operation.

The other thing I liked was the direction of tilt. Unisaws tilt to the right, toward the fence, Powermatics tilted left away from the fence. For most cuts that is what I preferred.

I have had both, and actually the cranking on the Unisaw is better. My Powermatic 66 was pretty well beat up though. Agree 100% about the left tilt. Unisaws come in either version. Jet, and most of the other contractor saws, with the exception of Craftsman, are right tilt.

What Gold Rock says and expanded on:

I like my Powermatic 66 a great deal. I think the PM66 is/was the best US made saw until the advent of the Saw Stop; heaviest build quality, trunions, etc. I wouldn't trade mine in for an SS (or Unisaw) , but would buy the SS if going from scratch. The Accufence on the PM66 is the equal of the Biesmeyer option on the Delta (IMO), and comes standard whereas the B'meyer was an added cost option for most of the Uni run. The 66 is no longer manufactured but has generally been considered the premium US saw by most people (until the advent of the SS). Modern Deltas and Powermatics are sufficiently different than the US made stuff (Delta is said to be manufacturing in the USA again, but I think....could be wrong....the operative term is actually "assembling") to more closely match certain Euro features like riving knives.

I agree with Paul that the basis of a good cabinet saw starts at the foundation. The fence set up is critical as well, which is why people like the Biesmeyer style; easy to set up, get the right toe out, smooth operating, just better than the old fences.

The reason the Deltas are sometimes called "Delta/Rockwell is that Rockwell purchased Delta in 1945. They sold the company off to Pentair in the early 80s. Rockwell was a good steward of Delta and their production quality was first rate.

Me? Buying new I'd get a SawStop.

For most people the hassle of 3 phase is a deal killer. I like old equipment as much as the next guy , but good saws are going cheaper now; hardly worth the trouble and expense to change a motor and fence system these days on a saw so equipped....

If you can find a used hobbyist's saw, that's the best deal of the bunch.

Agree about buying new, and the Sawstop; at the very least a saw with a riving knife.

The dust collection is better on the Unisaw, IMHO. Mine is a newer one, and the dust collection is very good. The old 66 will leave a big pile of dust on the floor.

The trunions on the 66 are considerably beefier than the Unisaw.


The 66 had a 3hp Leeson motor, it drew 22 amps at 220.
The 3 hp Unisaw only draws around 12, or so (IIRC I will check and edit accordingly), so that may be a consideration if your service is constrained.

They are both good saws, and the best in their class; we do not see too many Generals here in the US of A. which could be included in this group as well. (Mr Ledger will be along shortly to gloat upon his high end sliding table Euro saw)

A good fence and a long enough outfeed table are essential to make these saws safely work to their capabilities.

[potomac]

Bruce- What did you use to rip the planks for Woodwind?

[Tom Robb]

Patomic said the Uni was 3 phase.
In the extremely unlikely event that he has 3ph in his house, it's deal killer.

Agree with the above estimate of the Saw Stop saw. Very nice... except dust collection could be better and cleaning the gears is a pain, and replacing blade and stop mechanism is expensive (there's got to be a better system than that), and I really dislike the owner's business plan.

[wizbang 13]

Bruce- What did you use to rip the planks for Woodwind?

I had a 10 inch craftsman,same deal, only set up for ripping.
Two other vessels , 32' and 42 ', I ripped them with a worm saw.
I have a heavy metal out feed table now,and a fingerboard, but I only really intend to rip. I am not a fine carpenter.

[potomac]

Bruce- I am not a fine anything.

I believe I'll play with the little Makita for a while and see how I can make out with just that. As I said in another thread, I'm mostly ripping 1x stock for stringers and the like. If I can get it to comfortably rip 2x stock for a strip build, well, it's hard for me to imagine needing much more.

Thanks for the input all. I hope someone other than me got something out of it. As always, I learned quite a bit.

[_QB_]

In the extremely unlikely event that he has 3ph in his house, it's deal killer.

Could use a static 2-to-3 phase converter. (I run one on my vertical mill in the garage, works great.) Total cost, and total power to the motor would be about the same as his 2hp option.

[John Meachen]

I would be very afraid of wizbang's saw too.Not fixed down,no crown guard,no riving knife makes it something I would avoid.

[Lew Barrett]

I have had both, and actually the cranking on the Unisaw is better. My Powermatic 66 was pretty well beat up though. Agree 100% about the left tilt. Unisaws come in either version. Jet, and most of the other contractor saws, with the exception of Craftsman, are right tilt.



Agree about buying new, and the Sawstop; at the very least a saw with a riving knife.

The dust collection is better on the Unisaw, IMHO. Mine is a newer one, and the dust collection is very good. The old 66 will leave a big pile of dust on the floor.

The trunions on the 66 are considerably beefier than the Unisaw.


The 66 had a 3hp Leeson motor, it drew 22 amps at 220.
The 3 hp Unisaw only draws around 12, or so (IIRC I will check and edit accordingly), so that may be a consideration if your service is constrained.

They are both good saws, and the best in their class; we do not see too many Generals here in the US of A. which could be included in this group as well. (Mr Ledger will be along shortly to gloat upon his high end sliding table Euro saw)

A good fence and a long enough outfeed table are essential to make these saws safely work to their capabilities.

And I agree about the dust collection; not of the "modern" type. I have a 1.5 HP collector (canister type) dedicated to that tool, straight run of 4" pipe from saw to collector and the "filings" still collect in the bottom of the saw and blow into my face when I cut with it. But the saw slices through whatever you feed in without a lick of hesitation and with great precision (my set up was initially done with a dial indicator, patience and care and was a fun day). If you are looking at the Powermatic (new) now, you are looking at the 2000, which is made in Taiwan and has a broad range of features not available on any 66 including a better blade guard, riving knife and improved collector. If you are looking at a Unisaw, you are also looking at a newer design with a riving knife (as the 2000 has) and improved DC as well as better safety switches and a bunch of other improvements .

My 66 (new), last of the US made, came with a Baldor 3HP, not Leeson though (Both excellent units) and you can....literally.....balance a nickle on edge while it is running. Smooth and powerful, it returns join-able cuts. As Steve says, (and I insinuated before him) the beef in the 66 is in the trunions, and there is that extra pizzazz of the polished top. It is a tool of a former era, no doubt, but a well made one. After that, arguing about which is better is a matter of if you like vanilla or chocolate.

I'd still only look at the Saw Stop if I was buying a new saw. I don't use my saw nearly as much as I used to, mostly because my shop is pretty much dismantled as a result of a big change in the way we use space in our house. More's the pity. It is fun for me to use, but then, I'm no pro by any means.

[Nicholas Carey]

Patomic said the Uni was 3 phase.
In the extremely unlikely event that he has 3ph in his house, it's deal killer.

You can also drive a 3-phase motor with a VFD (Variable Frequency Drive)...and you get speed control to boot. I believe a suitable VFD will run about $200 or so (which see http://dealerselectric.com/item.asp?PID=737)

Here's a few Unisaw setups with VFD:

http://lumberjocks.com/barecycles/blog/29097
http://lumberjocks.com/barecycles/blog/30007

Some discussions about VFDs at http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/f12/d...3-phase-30879/

Here's the OWWM FAQ re: VFDs: http://wiki.vintagemachinery.org/VFD...ariable,drives

The OWWM folks are a good source of info about running 3-phase power with VFDs:

http://www.owwm.org/
http://www.vintagemachinery.org/

[Jim Ledger]

Let me just say something about outfeed tables, for anyone learning to use a tablesaw. One of the most dangerous moves in sawing is wanting to press the piece downward as the piece extends over the back edge of the saw and gravity takes hold. Sometimes it's only the last quarter inch of cut, the board's tipping, and you want to see the cut finished, so you press the board downward. This is very bad. Make an outfeed table, or at least use a roller stand.

Get a three horse machine, single phase. You need a #12 wire, 220 volt, twenty amp breaker.

[BETTY-B]

And one more thing... you can always dump more crap out on the Unisaw. That includes emotional. :- )

[potomac]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who sometimes has a work space that looks like that, though even I don't have the vinyl.

[Paul Girouard]

And one more thing... you can always dump more crap out on the Unisaw. That includes emotional. :- )

You'd be rated "Trust worthy //// with a Gold Star" by Mr.lefty8!!!

[Mrleft8]

You'd be rated "Trust worthy //// with a Gold Star" by Mr.lefty8!!!

Yea verily!

[Jim Ledger]

Verily, indeed. I was in Leftys shop just yesterday and I can tell you I wanted to sort it out so bad. "Just give me the broom and get lost for an hour", but I don't think there was one. Could have half filled a spackle bucket with beer bottle caps. You'd kill yourself carrying a sheet of plywood from one end to the other. Nice shop but it drives me nuts just being there.

[wizbang 13]

And one more thing... you can always dump more crap out on the Unisaw. That includes emotional. :- )

and MY saw is a hazard ?
So, OK, anyone got pics of a saw like mine with a BORK or any other goodies it should have?
it aint gettin' bolted down, to what?

[Lew Barrett]

and MY saw is a hazard ?
So, OK, anyone got pics of a saw like mine with a BORK or any other goodies it should have?
it aint gettin' bolted down, to what?

This saw presents no safety issues because one can't even find the "on" switch!

Note: my saw draws 12 amps (@220V) if memory serves. Yeah, that's 24 "110 Amps" but that's the point of 220V; more power available.

[Art Reinhert]

Since you said it is next to your washer and dryer can I assume this is in your basement or somewhere else in your home?
Is so remember that even with the best collection system you are going to be adding a bunch of dust to your home that will be a constant problem.
If I had to do my wood working in my home I'd find a different hobby. REALLY, I'm not kidding.