Kent State

[Phillip Allen]

What part of "walking from one class to the next" do you fail to understand???

I understand it perfectly well... you said two were protesting and we were talking about them... don't you remember?

[Tom Montgomery]

What is your point, Phillip? That firing live rounds into that unarmed campus crowd while classes were in session was justified? That Scheuer's and Schroeder's lives were sacrificed for the common good?

Come out with it.

FWIW, every person shot and killed or wounded that day was a student in good standing at Kent State University.

[ChrisBen]

What is your point, Phillip? That firing live rounds into that unarmed crowd was justified? That Scheuer's and Schroeder's lives were sacrificed for the common good?

Come out with it.

FWIW, every person shot and killed or wounded that day was a student in good standing at Kent State University.

Cmon Tom, they were college students, Subversives. Everyone knows that.

[Phillip Allen]

What is your point, Phillip? That firing live rounds into that unarmed crowd was justified? That Scheuer and Schroeder lives were snuffed out for the common good?

Come out with it.

FWIW, every person shot and killed or wounded that day was a student in good standing at Kent State University.

keep your story straight:

You said:
two of the dead were students pursuing their academic day
two of the people were involved in the protest

we began to talk about the two protesters in terms of whether or not they posed a threat to the soldiers
I said I didn't know one way or another
you have now indicated that all four were pursuing their academic day and not any sort of threat

that represents a change in your story

[Lew Barrett]

So was Donn a student of either KSU or OSU? An outside, anti-protest agitator? Was he a national guardsman? A state trooper? A municiple or campus police officer? Was he up to something else?

Why exactly were you at KSU on May 4, 1970, Donn?

This is a fair question.

[Phillip Allen]

This is a fair question.

yes

[SMARTINSEN]

keep your story straight:

You said:
two of the dead were students pursuing their academic day
two of the people were involved in the protest

we began to talk about the two protesters in terms of whether or not they posed a threat to the soldiers
I said I didn't know one way or another
you have now indicated that all four were pursuing their academic day and not any sort of threat

that represents a change in your story

Can you possibly imagine that the students in good standing were also participating in the protests? Can you answer the question about the appropriateness of firing live rounds against fellow citizens?

I do not see how this in any way represents a change in Tom's story, but your disingenuous style of argument is extraordinarily frustrating.

[pefjr]

This is a fair question.Lew

I think noneya is a good answer.

[Donn]

This is a fair question.

I was fresh out of the service, and considering returning to OSU. I went to the campus to meet with some profs and counselors.

I had a 3.2 beer and a burger with one of my old EngLit profs, and was walking back across the oval, heading for my car to go home. I came upon a group of 'peaceful protestors' who were shooting golf-ball sized rocks through the windows of my favorite building on campus, the Library, with wrist rockets. One of them saw me watching, and hollered at me with a bit of an anti-military curse...I still had my Marine Corps high-and-tight hair, and was clean-shaven and neatly dressed. He shot a rock at me with his wrist rocket, but he missed. I was only a few yards away from him, so I took his slingshot away from him, and used it on his buddies. I put about 6 of them on the ground before the National Guard got there to quiet the situation.

After some choice words from the VVaW in the group, I decided to become a counter-protestor.

They lost.

[ChrisBen]

They lost.

We all lost.

[Phillip Allen]

Can you possibly imagine that the students in good standing were also participating in the protests? Can you answer the question about the appropriateness of firing live rounds against fellow citizens?

I do not see how this in any way represents a change in Tom's story, but your disingenuous style of argument is extraordinarily frustrating.

re read it without prejudice and try again... Tom was speaking about two protesters and then suddenly he was talking about walking to class... if violence was started by any protesters then it's not likely that the soldiers started it... what the soldiers might have done is to escalate the violence started by others. That said, it does not expunge the violence by the 'losing' side... or do you think otherwise?

You can test this idea very easily. The next time you see a cop car, throw a rock at his windshield and see if he escalates the violence. You may then complain that the cop started it.

[Donn]

We all lost.

Speak for yourself.

[Phillip Allen]

I was fresh out of the service, and considering returning to OSU. I went to the campus to meet with some profs and counselors.

I had a 3.2 beer and a burger with one of my old EngLit profs, and was walking back across the oval, heading for my car to go home. I came upon a group of 'peaceful protestors' who were shooting golf-ball sized rocks through the windows of my favorite building on campus, the Library, with wrist rockets. One of them saw me watching, and hollered at me with a bit of an anti-military curse...I still had my Marine Corps high-and-tight hair, and was clean-shaven and neatly dressed. He shot a rock at me with his wrist rocket, but he missed. I was only a few yards away from him, so I took his slingshot away from him, and used it on his buddies. I put about 6 of them on the ground before the National Guard got there to quiet the situation.

After some choice words from the VVaW in the group, I decided to become a counter-protestor.

They lost.

in the good old days, the winner always was said to have started it... standard procedure

[Tom Montgomery]

Still not clear, Donn. Which campus were you on during the wrist rocket incident? Ohio State University or Kent State University?

You led us to believe you were on the Kent State University campus on May 4, 1970. Were you? If so, what were you doing there? Looking to stir up trouble?

[Phillip Allen]

Still not clear. Which campus were you on during this wrist rocket incident? Ohio State University or Kent State University?

You led us to believe you were on the Kent State University campus on may 4, 1970. Were you?

OSU... he said so

"... and considering returning to OSU. I went to the campus..."

[Tom Montgomery]

OSU... he said so

"... and considering returning to OSU. I went to the campus..."

Re-read posts #15 & #18. Donn implied he was at Kent State University on May 4, 1970 as an "anti-protestor" He says his motivation to appear in Kent was his earlier experience at Ohio State University.

If all this is true, it sounds to me like Donn was an outside agitator at Kent State.

If so... when the Ohio National Guard ordered the crowd to disperse did that apply only to the student protestors or also to the outside agitators there to protest-the-protestors?

[Steve McMahon]

Old National wound. Why did CC choose to open an old wound? There are many mistakes being made today, in fact one of them is hauntingly similar to the mistake of Viet Nam. Guess Obama didn't remember History, eh CC? Kent State ?.... minor, compared to the Obama and the left's Afghanistan "Good War". Going on 11 yrs now.

It is important to remember past mistakes lest we forget them and make them again.


There are pleanty of new mistakes to make without having to repeat any, including Bush and the right's Afghanistan that Obama is trying to extricate us from in a logical fashion.

BTW - if Obama has been in power 3 years and the war has been going on for 11, how the heck can you possibly blame him for that? Must be the "new math"

[Phillip Allen]

I have no idea.

I was, and I was at the earlier protests at OSU in Columbus.

They weren't peaceful protests.

does anyone believe that the violence of the protesters was appropriate?

[SamSam]

Kill 4 and wound 9 for protesting in the USA. You got to respect authority. Law and order. Our country, right or wrong. Yep. Slingshots, throwing rocks, we crush that ****. Never mind it turns out they were right, we crush that ****. You got to respect authority. The military and America went on to triumphant victory in a selfless war against tyranny and oppression in Vietnam. The world knows how wonderful it was, the world can see who is to thank for such wonderfulness. It was well worth it. Yep. They lost, that's what counts.

If all this is true, it sounds to me like Donn was an outside agitator at Kent State.

If so... when the Ohio National Guard ordered the crowd to disperse did that apply only to the student protestors or also to the outside agitators there to protest-the-protestors?

Ah, not so much...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Norman

[Tom Montgomery]

How many people did the student protestors kill?

Does anyone now believe there were no outside agitating reactionaries present with the intention of stirring the pot?

[Phillip Allen]

apparently Sam believes that violent agitation by the protesters was the correct thing to do...

[Tom Montgomery]

Stop the generalizations, Phillip. Detail the student violence. How many were killed by the Kent State student protestors?

[Phillip Allen]

Stop the generalizations, Phillip. Detail the student violence. How many were killed by the Kent State student protestors?

ilt would be impossible to measure... so long as we fought ourselves the invading North Vietnamese were encouraged to keep up their fight... no doubt some american soldiers lost their lives due to that sort of thing

[Tom Montgomery]

Ah, not so much...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Norman

An audio cassette has recently surfaced that some (analysts hired by the Cleveland Plain Dealer) believe documents .38 caliber shots being fired shortly before the Ohio National Guard opened fire. They also believe the tape documents an Ohio National Guard officer ordering his men to prepare to fire.

The U.S. Justice Department subsequently declined to reopen the investigation of the Kent State shootings. The Plain Dealer and the Akron Beacon-Journal have both editorialized in the last 10 days that the Justice Department should reconsider and reopen the investigation. Not to determine any criminality - the statute of limitations has passed - but to get to the historical truth.

The Plain Dealer certainly thinks that this is evidence that outsider Terry Norman started the tragic series of events by firing his handgun at student protestors.

[Tom Montgomery]

ilt would be impossible to measure... so long as we fought ourselves the invading North Vietnamese were encouraged to keep up their fight... no doubt some american soldiers lost their lives due to that sort of thing

Sit down and shut up like good sheeple. How un-American.

[pefjr]

[QUOTE=Steve McMahon;3401685]It is important to remember past mistakes lest we forget them and make them again.[QUOTE]Our Presidents Bush and Obama both have not learn from these mistakes. Why is it the left only sees the mistakes of the right, and never sees the mistakes of the left? In an earlier post Ian blames Nixon for VietNam. I guess he forgot about JFK, Johnson, and gang, who by the way, by building V/Nam up to 600,000 troops helped bring Nixon back from the grave and put him in the WH.

Now you are joking right, or have you been asleep for 3 yrs? Obama is trying to extricate us from in a logical fashion.

Please explain your claim of Obama's logic. I didn't blame him for 11 yrs, but I do hold him responsible for the big mistake of escalation. Obama is puppet for the MIC and he had a chance to leave and even Biden advised him to lead our country out of that mess, and instead he escalated and you lefties claimed it as the good war. You may never have the guts to admit it, but I will never let you forget it. No, I don't call it new math, I call it lefty denial of mistakes made under Obama.

[johnw]

[QUOTE=pefjr;3401763][QUOTE=Steve McMahon;3401685]It is important to remember past mistakes lest we forget them and make them again.

Our Presidents Bush and Obama both have not learn from these mistakes. Why is it the left only sees the mistakes of the right, and never sees the mistakes of the left? In an earlier post Ian blames Nixon for VietNam. I guess he forgot about JFK, Johnson, and gang, who by the way, by building V/Nam up to 600,000 troops helped bring Nixon back from the grave and put him in the WH.

Now you are joking right, or have you been asleep for 3 yrs? Obama is trying to extricate us from in a logical fashion.

Please explain your claim of Obama's logic. I didn't blame him for 11 yrs, but I do hold him responsible for the big mistake of escalation. Obama is puppet for the MIC and he had a chance to leave and even Biden advised him to lead our country out of that mess, and instead he escalated and you lefties claimed it as the good war. You may never have the guts to admit it, but I will never let you forget it. No, I don't call it new math, I call it lefty denial of mistakes made under Obama.

Obama, since 2002, has been telling people that the Iran war was a mistake and we should have been putting our efforts into Afghanistan. Then, once in office, he acted like he meant it.

And for some reason, you feel betrayed.

[johnw]

Old National wound. Why did CC choose to open an old wound? There are many mistakes being made today, in fact one of them is hauntingly similar to the mistake of Viet Nam. Guess Obama didn't remember History, eh CC? Kent State ?.... minor, compared to the Obama and the left's Afghanistan "Good War". Going on 11 yrs now.

So, we shouldn't bring up unpleasant things? And for some reason, Kent State makes you think of Obama? How old do you reckon he was when that happened?

[tigerregis]

You boys should know that external to the US is the knowledge that your country came of rebellion against the powers of the day. Then some of you believe that 18th century landowners and enlightenment philosophes have put words of contemporary ideas into a lexicon that has no end(in spite of a number of amendments). So, what is so baffling about a group of minutemen of the zeitgeist to protest an illegal and illogical "domino theory" war based on protecting "our Interests" abroad? If you are founded in violence then you must live with peaceful demonstrations or do what the Black Panthers did and pose with their legal weapons. When peace doesn't work then one must do what the Weather Underground did. Make your minds up and quit arguing.

[PeterSibley]

Live rounds against stone throwing anti war protesters ..... where was this the Kingdom of Saud, Syria, Egypt?

[Peerie Maa]

They PROBABLY should not have been shot ... but boy, they WERE asking for it.

I think that this is a pretty sad indictment of the American mentality. NO ONE is "asking" to be shot or bayoneted.

[purri]

^ my sentiments entirely but the matter is one of class and underclass as circumstances allow, "Constitutional matters" notwithstanding.

In short it's a crock in need of being drawn kicking and screaming into a concept of what constitutes democracy.

[pefjr]

[QUOTE=johnw;3401776]

Obama, since 2002, has been telling people that the Iran war was a mistake and we should have been putting our efforts into Afghanistan. Then, once in office, he acted like he meant it.

And for some reason, you feel betrayed.

He was right about Iran, and wrong enough about Afghanistan, unless you feel he has accomplished a mysterious prior goal of the "good war". If the goal was OBL, you should be proud of our Prez even if the cost of accomplishment is several hundred thousand times Kent State, and still continues.

[pefjr]

So, we shouldn't bring up unpleasant things? And for some reason, Kent State makes you think of Obama? How old do you reckon he was when that happened?

You are awfully slow today.

[ccmanuals]

The question most people avoid is why was the Guard there in the first place? If there was a fear that violence could erupt on a college campus why wasn't the local police handing the situation? At the time this occured guardsman were not trained in crowd control tactics and procedures. They were receiving combat training. It was a complete failure by the gov. of Ohio and he was never held accountable for his decision.

[Donn]

The question most people avoid is why was the Guard there in the first place? If there was a fear that violence could erupt on a college campus why wasn't the local police handing the situation?

"The local police?" At the time, Kent had a population of fewer than 20K people. I doubt if there were more than a dozen men in the local police, and they were certainly no more trained in crowd control tactics than the National Guard.

The earlier riots at Ohio State also needed National Guard, and Columbus had a large and well-trained police force, in addition to the State Highway Patrol. The police weren't enough in Columbus, and the VVaW took a few hundred members up to Kent.

[Dan McCosh]

The question most people avoid is why was the Guard there in the first place? If there was a fear that violence could erupt on a college campus why wasn't the local police handing the situation? At the time this occured guardsman were not trained in crowd control tactics and procedures. They were receiving combat training. It was a complete failure by the gov. of Ohio and he was never held accountable for his decision.

It was quite common to use the National Guard for crowd/riot control. The results were often disastrous, as the Guard was heavily armed and mainly untrained. That was the main reason for the high death toll in Detroit in 1967, was also problematic in Newark and others.

[Tom Montgomery]

The question that Donn continues to avoid is: What was he doing at Kent State University on May 4, 1970?

Did he live in Kent? Was he a student? Was he sight seeing? Was he there as a law enforcement officer? Was he there as a national guardsmen (his cryptic "I enlisted")? Was he there for the thrill of stirring the pot?

[Larry P.]

To elaborate on my earlier post. I didn't say or imply that the protester deserved to be shot. Someone asked how this happened. The point that I wanted to make but didn't have thine to express was that the Kent State protests were not a peaceful one day event. It was something that went on for days. The protesters were not limited to the Kent state campus. They were also gathering and ransacking the town turning over cars and breaking store windows and setting fires. It became a tense and dangerous situation. Both sides were culpable in the escalating tension.

[Gerarddm]

I remember being completely outraged by Kent State. Lo these many years later there is still zero justification for what happened, and murder charges should have been brought up.

By the way, that first photo of the young woman over the fallen body of a student won the Pulitzer Prize. She was a 14 year old runaway with no real connection to the campus. In later versions of the photograph, the fence post awkwardly rising behind her head was airbrushed out.

[Donn]

I remember being completely outraged by Kent State.

It's difficult to be partially outraged.

[Peerie Maa]

To elaborate on my earlier post. I didn't say or imply that the protester deserved to be shot. Someone asked how this happened. The point that I wanted to make but didn't have thine to express was that the Kent State protests were not a peaceful one day event. It was something that went on for days. The protesters were not limited to the Kent state campus. They were also gathering and ransacking the town turning over cars and breaking store windows and setting fires. It became a tense and dangerous situation. Both sides were culpable in the escalating tension.

True, most peaceful protests do attract hot heads out for a good riot and the buzz of smashing things. However the issuing of live ammunition and the order to use bayonets is an appalling over reaction to the incident. According to the time line linked to earlier, young American citizens were bayoneted by their own country folk on both Saturday and the Sunday before the shootings. Yet neither the Governor, the Mayor nor the Guards commanders stopped to think whether they had gone too far. It is apparent that they were not interested in defusing the situation, controlling and arresting the criminal element, and establishing calm, they were acting as if they had a determination to win a war.

[Lew Barrett]

This study, undertaken by Kent State faculty members sheds a fair degree of light on the incident. It's review and comments might be a new jumping off point for this discussion. Easily googled if you simply use "violence, protest and Kent State" in your search.

One comment made by the authors, who are or were professors in Kent State's Sociology Department, is that the relevance of this event remains intact for reasons that are outlined in the article itself. I don't think anybody regardless of their politics can feel good about what happened at Kent State. They also seem to imply that the legal process following the event was flawed.

[Phillip Allen]

True, most peaceful protests do attract hot heads out for a good riot and the buzz of smashing things. However the issuing of live ammunition and the order to use bayonets is an appalling over reaction to the incident. According to the time line linked to earlier, young American citizens were bayoneted by their own country folk on both Saturday and the Sunday before the shootings. Yet neither the Governor, the Mayor nor the Guards commanders stopped to think whether they had gone too far. It is apparent that they were not interested in defusing the situation, controlling and arresting the criminal element, and establishing calm, they were acting as if they had a determination to win a war.

a war mentality was certainly present... and had been for some time... both sides participated in this and excused themselves out of hand... BOTH sides. Remember that at the beginning of this thread, it was called a peaceful demonstration... simply untrue and if there is one lie then perhaps there are many more... that 'excuse' has been used by both sides. It follows, then, if one wants to be taken seriously... they shouldn't tell any lies at all... including little white lies. WATCH YOUR RHETORIC!

[Phillip Allen]

True, most peaceful protests do attract hot heads out for a good riot and the buzz of smashing things. However the issuing of live ammunition and the order to use bayonets is an appalling over reaction to the incident. According to the time line linked to earlier, young American citizens were bayoneted by their own country folk on both Saturday and the Sunday before the shootings. Yet neither the Governor, the Mayor nor the Guards commanders stopped to think whether they had gone too far. It is apparent that they were not interested in defusing the situation, controlling and arresting the criminal element, and establishing calm, they were acting as if they had a determination to win a war.

has the UK ever issued live ammunition to policemen chasing down suspicious men in the underground?

[Tom Montgomery]

WATCH YOUR RHETORIC!

Now that​ is hilarious!

[Peerie Maa]

a war mentality was certainly present... and had been for some time... both sides participated in this and excused themselves out of hand... BOTH sides. Remember that at the beginning of this thread, it was called a peaceful demonstration... simply untrue and if there is one lie then perhaps there are many more... that 'excuse' has been used by both sides. It follows, then, if one wants to be taken seriously... they shouldn't tell any lies at all... including little white lies. WATCH YOUR RHETORIC!

Are you suggesting that I am telling little white lies, if so please point them out to me.
If not then I suggest that you make it plain that you are not referring to the post of mine that you quote.

[Peerie Maa]

has the UK ever issued live ammunition to policemen chasing down suspicious men in the underground?

The cases are so totally disparate that this response is a provocative irrelevance.

[Phillip Allen]

Are you suggesting that I am telling little white lies, if so please point them out to me.
If not then I suggest that you make it plain that you are not referring to the post of mine that you quote.

I have no intention of making it any plainer... the whole point of little white lies is to prevent clarity in the first place... however I was not speaking of anything you wrote that I noticed.

I was speaking to the subject of discussion and was noticing that the rhetoric was ramping up... someone said that it was a peaceful protest near the beginning of this thread... he knew better or should have

as to live ammunition... I have not personally addressed that topic, which I consider to be a separate topic or SHOULD be separate
to the guy the UK murdered in the subway... did anyone go to jail for that killing? ... talk about OVER REACTION!!! I will never forget that state sponsored murder regardless of any white lies coming from that event

[bobbys]

Those were brave people protesting Nixon.

Later on Brave libs protested Bush.

Then Libs Protested Obama bombing Libya...

O wait , Their all For that.

Better stick to Kent State and Bush if your a lib.