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Thread: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

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    Default Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    by Rebecca Schoenkopf
    11:46 am April 25, 2012

    Jesse Kelly, Republican running for Gabby Giffords’ Arizona seat. What do you think about healthcare, is it a right or a privilege?

    " My belief system is this. The health care for anybody but especially for our nation. The highest quality and lowest cost can only be delivered without the government. What I believe is that all things we drive, we do, health care, anything, is a privilege to some extent. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, those are inalienable rights endowed by your creator. If you’re claiming a right, if you’re going to say anything’s a right, if you’re going to say you have a right to a cell phone, then who has the responsibility to pay for it? That’s what I believe."

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    Sounds like a pageant winner. Also sounds like Sara Palin.
    cogito ergo zoom
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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    Jest luurve the hand and body language...
    Xanthorrea

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    Quote Originally Posted by TANSTAF1 View Post
    ... but I am gonna use it to ask how this guy won the Miss South Carolina USA teen contest ...
    Go to Youtube and search "Miss South Carolina".
    You'll probably think she's brilliant

    Doug

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    Quote Originally Posted by perldog007 View Post
    You tell me professor, how much of your income am I entitled to? A right? Seriously? It's the right thing to do. You want to pick on an unsuitable candidate?, come at me bro http://www.delawareblack.com/news/54...rial-ring.html

    A bunch of know it alls who do nothing but spew 'snark' at those with whom they disagree, including you professor ad hom. You are all so snide criticizing people who at least step up. I spit on your unmanly ways, and laugh at your lack of humanity. Defend yourself man, don't just sit there, I'm a dumb squat dropout Type shang type.

    I'm not planning on being here for long because when the progressives are losing an argument they sink to insults like dumb squat dropout ( remember that one doc?) then when they lose that game they mash the button.

    So let's get it over with, you want to pick on somebody who is stepping up to the plate regardless of the personal cost, be a man. Take your best shot, but you better stay here in the bilge with that stuff.

    Pat Ford found out there ain't no whining to admin in the rest of cyberspace, I went light on him but the next one to leave the bilge and try bringing the attitude to me suffers.

    Why have I singled you out? Because you have committed great sins. What proof do I have? I am a scourge of cyberspace. If you weren't guilty of great sins cyberspace would have sent Bourdain.


    My issue is civil rights, equal protection. I'm up against a super pac and challenging an incumbent Governor in a primary. So come on, pile on. We'll all have a good time. I promise.
    Are you alright?

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    Well, perldog007's response makes Kelly look rational and focused and TANSTAF1 managed to completely miss the headline joke. Maybe the right's problem is no discernible sense of humor, which goes nicely with no sense of proportion.

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    As someone who is using far more than his 'share' of healthcare ressources, I would like to have "shang" answer the question put to him by "perldog".
    You tell me professor, how much of your income am I entitled to?

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    Wrong question Milo, for two reasons. Firstly, Perldog007's response assumes that Kelly said something rational. He didn't. You cannot use that bit of mind-numbing stupidity as a basis for a policy debate. Actually, can't use Perldog007's not quite so irrational but equally off-point skreed as a starting point either.

    Whether it's done as a single payer or competative, whether it's funded by what's nakedly a tax or by "insurance premiums" the goal many of us share is that in the US everyone have a level of basic health care commensurate with our national wealth and ability. Cost gets shared among us all. How big and expensive it is becomes a decision in which we all to some extent participate. And whatever it is, it will be less wasteful than our current most expensive/least effective health care of any developed nation.

    Some people will indeed use more of those resourses and some less, just as some people use the federally funded waterways, navigation facilities, and rescue services rather a lot (like me for the first two) while my cousins in Oklahoma use the federally funded highways a hundred times more than me.

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    I'm with Ian, this country (every country) needs a Publican party.

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    Quote Originally Posted by David W Pratt View Post
    I'm with Ian, this country (every country) needs a Publican party.
    Lefty for President, in that case. Slainte

    And welcome back, Milo. It is good to see you, in the event that I missed your howdy-do on any of the other threads.
    Steve Martinsen

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    Don't presume to tell me it's the wrong question. It is one of the most important questions of our time. If we are going going to say that something that costs $1,000 a month is a right, but that 50% of the population can't pay for that right, then it behooves those claiming that health care is a right to discuss how much they are willing to pay so that others may enjoy that right.

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    oddly Milo We already pay the thousand and then some. what's the difference?
    Oh and hi guy's.

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    My vote is for world peace and to save the children and whales.

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    I can’t imagine why people think that only those paying federal income tax will be paying for health care.

    Even if you take the almost half who don’t pay income tax, most actually work, earn money, but due to low wages have deductions larger than the tax. Almost a quarter are the elder who’s social security is not taxed and who are in fact already covered by Medicare so their health care is properly paid for.

    But in fact, the poor pay taxes both directly, buying gas for example, and indirectly when they pay rent. Most poor get to spend 80% of their total income with the rest going to non-income-tax taxes.

    Every system proposed has some folk who pay nothing or very little. We already pay for over-priced partial health care for most of them anyway but a proper system will provide more appropriate service for less.

    And let's not nuke the gay whales.

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    What's the difference? What rights do you enjoy that another person is required to pay for? I always, and this is particularly apropos for "shang", like to say that freedom of the press belongs only to those who own the press.

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    Quote Originally Posted by Milo Christensen View Post
    What's the difference? What rights do you enjoy that another person is required to pay for? I always, and this is particularly apropos for "shang", like to say that freedom of the press belongs only to those who own the press.
    do you pay for your own military, police, fire dept and road building?

    who paid for the schools you attended as a child?

    there are countries that would be more to your liking

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    Ian, when you can tell the difference between the freedom to do something and having a right to something I'll be perfectly willing to attempt to parse your writing. But not otherwise, O.K.?

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    You have a point there, since it appears one might have the existential freedom but not the political freedom to do something you don't have the right to do, like kill another person at random, and one may have no political freedom to do something you have a perfect right to do, like driving-while-black through Yarmouth Massachusetts.

    I cannot begin to divine special definitions without a bit more instruction.

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    Whaaaaat?

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    Quote Originally Posted by wardd View Post
    do you pay for your own military, police, fire dept and road building?

    who paid for the schools you attended as a child?

    there are countries that would be more to your liking
    .

    We went over this in my debating thread.

    Its overplayed to state like it or leave it.

    No body actually ever left although many Hollywood types move to France for wine season then come back..

    If your a lib and put a pic up of Paris you can then show everybody that visits where you really want to live someday.

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    First, hi Milo! Delighted to see you back, and you've my very best wishes for your own health.

    Second, I'm perfectly willing to pay taxes sufficient to pay for an appropriate suite of public services, which includes single-payer universal health insurance for medically necessary services. In fact, I already do.

    Personally, I'd be willing to increase my tax rate by up to 10% more rather than reduce such services, provided that there was accountability not only for efficient administration, but for a transparent report on how services were located in specific places, and the fees paid to those who provide them.

    You?
    Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    Quote Originally Posted by perldog007 View Post
    You tell me professor, how much of your income am I entitled to? A right? Seriously? It's the right thing to do. You want to pick on an unsuitable candidate?, come at me bro http://www.delawareblack.com/news/54...rial-ring.html

    A bunch of know it alls who do nothing but spew 'snark' at those with whom they disagree, including you professor ad hom. You are all so snide criticizing people who at least step up. I spit on your unmanly ways, and laugh at your lack of humanity. Defend yourself man, don't just sit there, I'm a dumb squat dropout Type shang type.

    I'm not planning on being here for long because when the progressives are losing an argument they sink to insults like dumb squat dropout ( remember that one doc?) then when they lose that game they mash the button.

    So let's get it over with, you want to pick on somebody who is stepping up to the plate regardless of the personal cost, be a man. Take your best shot, but you better stay here in the bilge with that stuff.

    Pat Ford found out there ain't no whining to admin in the rest of cyberspace, I went light on him but the next one to leave the bilge and try bringing the attitude to me suffers.

    Why have I singled you out? Because you have committed great sins. What proof do I have? I am a scourge of cyberspace. If you weren't guilty of great sins cyberspace would have sent Bourdain.


    My issue is civil rights, equal protection. I'm up against a super pac and challenging an incumbent Governor in a primary. So come on, pile on. We'll all have a good time. I promise.
    How much of my income are you entitled to?

    Not dime number one.

    With respect, perldog, it appears that you missed the point.

    This young lady sounds like a perfect Republican candidate:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj3iN...layer_embedded

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    "...I'm a dumb squat dropout..."
    Don't be so hard on yourself, perldog--just keep repeating, "I'm adequate, I'm adequate..."

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    how much am i entitled too of the taxes you are obliged to pay as a citizen?

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    Quote Originally Posted by TANSTAF1 View Post
    Not a stinking dime. Many here believe in spreading the wealth around. I do not.
    In that case any discussion with you on the subject of 'commonwealth' is pointless, but you do enjoy the advantages of that principle already of course.

    Milo, great to see you back, and feisty as ever.

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    Just curious, Skuthorp, why didn't you also include "shang" in your response? "shang" doesn't want to extend the "commonwealth" to "tanstaf1".

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    Quote Originally Posted by TANSTAF1 View Post
    Not a stinking dime. Many here believe in spreading the wealth around. I do not.
    i bet you also get a share of that shared tax receipts

    do you want to return the value of what you get to the treasury?

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    Quote Originally Posted by TANSTAF1 View Post
    There is a big difference between paying one's share of the legitimate functions of the "commonwealth" versus stealing from one and giving it to another.

    I earn what I get. I don't get it from the Treasury so why should I return it?
    what if your employer thought you should get as little of his money as he could get away with or is that the relationship you have?

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    I want "shang" to answer the question. It's very easy to play snark-n-hide, isn't it?

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    Quote Originally Posted by Milo Christensen View Post
    As someone who is using far more than his 'share' of healthcare ressources, I would like to have "shang" answer the question put to him by "perldog".

    You tell me professor, how much of your income am I entitled to?
    Ah, but it _is_ the wrong question - and horribly 'spun' to cause a presumption of a point which does not exist. The correct question is

    "How much of my income is _the state_ entitled to"..

    And, as Ian pointed out -

    Some people will indeed use more of those resourses and some less, just as some people use the federally funded waterways, navigation facilities, and rescue services rather a lot (like me for the first two) while my cousins in Oklahoma use the federally funded highways a hundred times more than me.
    - the uses (which & amount) vary greatly - person to person.

    FWIW, _no_ one can use more than their share of what should be available to all..

    Tell me.. is this the world in which any of you are happy to live??

    She walks through the emergency-room doors sometime in the early morning. In a plastic bag, she carries an object wrapped in a moist towel.

    ...

    The “chief complaint” on her chart at Grady Memorial Hospital, in Downtown Atlanta, might have set off a wave of nausea in a hospital at a white suburb or almost any place in the civilized world. It reads, “My breast has fallen off. Can you reattach it?”

    ....

    The patient, Edna Riggs, is fifty-three. She works for the phone company and lives on the southeast side of Atlanta.

    Sitting on an exam table, she looks placid. When she extends her hand, it feels limp. She makes fleeting eye contact. This is depression, maybe. Shame does the same thing, as does a sense of doom. "Fatalism" is the word doctors have repurposed to describe this last form of alienation.

    In medicine, we speak a language of our own, and Edna’s physical problem has a name in doctorese: automastectomy. It’s a fancy way of saying that the patient’s breast has fallen off by itself.

    An automastectomy can occur when a tumor grows so big and so deep that it cuts off the blood supply from the chest to the breast. Denied oxygen, breast tissue dies and the breast starts to detach from the chest wall. At places such as Grady, automastectomies are seen a couple of times a year, often enough to be taken in stride.

    This case is different from others I have seen only because Edna Riggs has wrapped her detached breast in a moist, light-blue towel and brought it with her for reattachment. I can’t help wondering why the towel is moist. Some deliberateness has gone into the breast’s care. I cringe at the thought that Edna has kept that package next to her on the gurney in the ER for hours.

    In the exam gown, Edna’s chest looks surprisingly normal. I ask how long has she had a “breast problem.”

    She first felt something in her breast when her son was in second grade, she replies. It has grown over the years. She speaks correct English, not the language of the streets. She sounds like someone who has had schooling, a person who reads. Her hair is clean and combed, she is dressed neatly.

    What grade is her son in now?

    Eleventh.

    I don’t react, not visibly. She has known she had a problem for nine years—why did she do nothing?

    .....

    Edna’s breast cancer has been growing for at least nine years. It’s unheard of that cancer such as this would be anything but metastatic. The disease has to have disseminated to her bones, lungs, brain, liver. I feel a wave of frustration and anger.

    ...


    Early on, Edna had some insurance, which didn’t do her any good. Her employer wouldn’t let her take just two or three hours of sick leave to go to the doctor. If she needed to take sick leave, she had to take it in increments of one day. This guaranteed that an employee would exhaust all the leave quickly. If Edna had been fired for taking time off after exhausting her sick leave, her three kids, too, would have lost support and insurance.

    Acknowledging the physical problem and facing the consequences became increasingly difficult. Edna tells me that she feared the disease, but she also feared the system. Would the doctors scold her? Would they experiment on her? Would they give her drugs that caused nausea, vomiting, hair loss? Would the hospital kill her?

    Edna’s decision to stay out of the medical system was about fear: fear of breast cancer, fear of the medical profession, fear of losing the roof over her kids’ heads. Fear intensified after her employer started to require copayments from workers who wanted to be insured. This extra $3,000 a year made health insurance too expensive to keep.

    Payment for medical services and sick-leave policies determine the quality of service we receive. Several years ago, my research team at the American Cancer Society published data showing that people diagnosed with cancer who had no insurance or were insured through Medicaid were 1.6 times more likely to die in five years as those with private insurance.

    In breast cancer, patients with private insurance were more likely to be diagnosed with Stage I breast cancer than those who had no insurance or were receiving Medicaid.


    I have seen poor breast cancer patients choose mastectomy (surgical removal of the entire breast) over a lumpectomy (removal of the tumor) because of employer sick-leave policies. A woman who chooses a lumpectomy must also receive radiation, which has to be given daily, Monday through Friday, for six to eight weeks. The treatment requires fifteen minutes in the clinic, but it’s done only during business hours. Unfortunately, this less disfiguring treatment is hardly an option for a woman who knows that longer postoperative treatment will cause her to lose her job.

    Much of the problem is that poor people don’t get care that would be likely to help them. The reasons for this are complex. Perhaps they can’t get care, or don’t know where care is available, or haven’t been offered insurance or steady access to care by their job or social services.

    Here is the problem: Poor Americans consume too little healthcare, especially preventive healthcare. Other Americans—often rich Americans—consume too much healthcare, often unwisely, and sometimes to their detriment. The American healthcare system combines famine with gluttony.

    (Let me add that almost everything about America is 'famine & gluttony')

    ...

    Edna has stage IV breast cancer. Disease has spread all over her body. Had she come to see me early in the course of her disease, it would have cost about $30,000 to cure her. She could have remained a taxpayer. Her kids could have had a mother. Now, the cure is not an option.

    ...

    ..sometimes cancer drugs give us “long-term survival,” in the dispassionate language of those of us who study outcomes. But for every Sandra, we get fifty patients with metastatic disease who “don’t do well.” They live a median eighteen months, which means that half are living and half are dead a year and a half after diagnosis.

    We try three treatments and manage to contain Edna’s disease for a while. She dies at age fifty-five, about twenty months after walking into the ER.
    I know this is not the world in which I wish to live. Hey all you non-third-world countries ;-) out there with single payer medical.. How many 'auto-masectomies' do you think happen each year.. How many deaths because the poor don't even have the option of simply living? Would this have been likely in your country? It seems quite common in the 'free' U.S. of A. Hmm, remember all those 'death panels' the righty tighties are always moaning about? Looks like those 'panels' are already implemented.. in our present medical insurance system.. & predatorially capitalists business'.

    So, to the previous posts.. "How much of our money is the state entitled to?" I'd say a fair amount.. to implement single payer medical _and_ fair employment practices.. & next to none for bombs, bullets & missiles to kill others who are simply trying to live. As for numbers.. whatever it takes, spread fairly. 'Fairly' meaning those with more, pay more. After all, they 'got more' by using the system. They should 'pay more' for supporting the system.. said system which gives them all of what they have..

    BTW, Tan.. If you're reading this - I am a socialist.. Obama is _not_.. He's just not quite as greedy as you.. ;-))

    Single Payer medical is all about "not hitting someone when they are down".. and "not taking advantage of the ill fortune of another"..

    So.. What do ya think? What _would_ Christ do! ;-)

    Oh, and yes.. let's _not_ nuke the gay whales (for Christ.. ) ;-)

    enjoy
    bobby

    BTW, Welcome Back, Milo! ;-)

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    There is a big difference between paying one's share of the legitimate functions of the "commonwealth" versus stealing from one and giving it to another.
    Really? And precisely what is that difference? How do you tell what the "legitimate" functions are? I submit that they are what the citizens decide they are.

    One example - the citizens of every other wealthy democracy have decided through the democratic process that one of the legitimate functions of the commonwealth is to provide heath insurance for every citizen all the time, mostly funded out of tax revenue. This seems to work quite well. We should do the same.

    The inconvenient truth, one more time.


    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    Quote Originally Posted by perldog007 View Post
    The above goes double for you sir. Bring it.
    It is true that having a right to something doesn't mean the government has to pay for it. That's why I don't believe healthcare is a right.

    I believe healthcare, like our highways system, our sewage system, our parks, etc. is a part of our infrastructure and, as such, should be paid for by taxes. This argument is a great example of the "coin syndrome" We hear that it is a right, and we hear that it is a privilege, and we have heard both sides. There are more than two sides to this.

    We don't have a right to highways, do we? Do we have the right to parks? Public education? Police? Libraries?

    One of the specific reasons the constitution was written was the government promoting the general welfare. That is what all these lovely things, and many more not listed here, do; they make us all better off.
    Congress begins every day with a prayer. Enough said.

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    Ya know doncha, Keith, that that graph of yours really does neatly support the point that we can't afford to implement universal health care.

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    Keith's graph proves that we cannot afford the insanely wasteful privately financed health care system we have now.

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    Quote Originally Posted by Milo Christensen View Post
    Ya know doncha, Keith, that that graph of yours really does neatly support the point that we can't afford to implement universal health care.
    because it would be cheaper?

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    John: I do so wish that your examples wouldn't completely invalidate the conclusion you so erroneosly use them to reach.

    Highways: completely paid for by "use" taxes (you may want to look up and read about use taxes before rejoining us here).
    Parks: almost entirely by "use" taxes.
    Sewage: by a Byzantine "use" tax related to some large multiple of metered water use.

    Does anybody else find humour in the fact that sewerage is so much more expensive than clean municipal water?

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    It neatly supportd the fact that the cost structure in private-only health systems is too rich, and delivers care only to those within specific market niches where there's a business case to do so.

    You would cut costs by easily 30% moving to a single payer model, without even touching the extra remuneration you pay (on average) compared with equivalent health providers elsewhere. The savings would come from the far reduced administration, and the absence of private insurers' profit margins.
    Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    "Highways: completely paid for by "use" taxes (you may want to look up and read about use taxes before rejoining us here)." [#46]

    The parenthetic remark is good adivce. I did and found a PEW financed study showing that we are down to about 51% of highway costs are covered by things that can be considered use taxes, both federal and state, and including fuel taxes. Thank you Milo for causing me to learn that a highway funding myth sold to me from childhood was untrue.

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    Tom: What Keith's graph tells me is that democracies are willing to spend about half for a universal system than what we have been forced to spend. The problem for us is that we are indeed spending to much money on our current system to switch to a government universal plan.

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    Tom: What Keith's graph tells me is that democracies are willing to spend about half for a universal system than what we have been forced to spend. The problem for us is that we are indeed spending to much money on our current system to switch to a government universal plan.
    is that like being too sick to see a doctor?

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    Quote Originally Posted by perldog007 View Post
    ...I'm a marksman with words...
    Remarkable.

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    Just out of curiosity, perlydog, what office are you running for?

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    God help her constituents if she wins with pap like that for stump speeches.

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Scheuer View Post
    God help her constituents if she wins with pap like that for stump speeches.
    Even with a measurable deadspot in my brain, I can still feel sorry for ol' Moby.

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    Quote Originally Posted by Milo Christensen View Post
    John: I do so wish that your examples wouldn't completely invalidate the conclusion you so erroneosly use them to reach.

    Highways: completely paid for by "use" taxes (you may want to look up and read about use taxes before rejoining us here).
    Parks: almost entirely by "use" taxes.
    Sewage: by a Byzantine "use" tax related to some large multiple of metered water use.

    Does anybody else find humour in the fact that sewerage is so much more expensive than clean municipal water?
    There's a long list of things we enjoy daily that are provided by taxes. I believe health care should be one of them.

    We have lovely parks here, and they are primarily maintained by taxes. A few require permits to use, but most are simply open to the public. Schools are paid by taxes. Police and Fire are paid by taxes. Even if the government collects fees, which are another form of tax, and provides the service, it is part of the infrastructure, whether we are talking about maintaining dredged harbors and naviagational aids, or airports.
    Congress begins every day with a prayer. Enough said.

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    ...Don't forget the tax on tobacco to include rolling tobacco from the president who would not raise taxes on working people on dime. I agree with your premise though. Strongly agree on not nuking any one regardless of specie or orientation...
    ..I'm a marksman with words...
    Indeed.

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    "Highways: completely paid for by "use" taxes (you may want to look up and read about use taxes before rejoining us here)." [#46]

    The parenthetic remark is good adivce. I did and found a PEW financed study showing that we are down to about 51% of highway costs are covered by things that can be considered use taxes, both federal and state, and including fuel taxes. Thank you Milo for causing me to learn that a highway funding myth sold to me from childhood was untrue.
    They're still taxes, no?

    It's a valid argument, is it not, that healthcare be considered a part of the infrastructure and a promotion of general welfare without it being construed as a right?
    Congress begins every day with a prayer. Enough said.

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    Quote Originally Posted by perldog007 View Post
    I would submit that we already have universal single payer health care. I've been in need of care without resources before and gotten care, once at a free clinic and once at the E.R., our private option could use some robustness and we need better bang for the buck IMO. We already pay the most..... Keith's charts are about as relevant as my tarot card readings, but not as accurate
    Yes, everyone has access, but not everyone pays. The "free" care you got was not free. It might have been free to you, but the cost was passed on to others. ER costs that are not collected from the patient are passed on to those with insurance and/or the taxpayers. This is the very crux of the argument over the mandate. If one chooses not to buy health insurance and has a heart attack, are we prepared to let him die?

    If one chooses not to get collision/comprehensive insurance on his car and wraps it around a pole, no one is going to fix or replace his car. If we are going to replace that car anyway, then we should mandate the purchase of that insurance. Why would health insurance be any different?
    Congress begins every day with a prayer. Enough said.

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    Quote Originally Posted by Milo Christensen View Post
    Tom: What Keith's graph tells me is that democracies are willing to spend about half for a universal system than what we have been forced to spend. The problem for us is that we are indeed spending to much money on our current system to switch to a government universal plan.
    I don't follow. All we need to do is open Medicare to everyone and we'll have a universal system. A damned good start, anyhow.

    I don't think people have given enough thought to how a universal system will disconnect one's health insurance from one's job, and that would go a long way towards creating more jobs. It would also end the redundancy of medical insurance on our cars or homes. It would end a lot of lawsuits.
    Congress begins every day with a prayer. Enough said.

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    Default Re: Miss South Carolina Teen USA Now Running For Gabby Giffords’ Seat

    Quote Originally Posted by perldog007 View Post
    Perldog doesn't miss. I'm a marksman with words. You missed the point. Per usual. It's okay. Everybody can't be good at every thing.
    Sometimes the meaning of a sentence can be crystal clear to he who wrote it, yet misunderstood by all who read it.
    Congress begins every day with a prayer. Enough said.

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