2nd Ammendment At Work

[RodSBT]

http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top...RhrWCM9dQ.cspx

SALT LAKE CITY (ABC 4 News) - A citizen with a gun stopped a knife wielding man as he began stabbing people Thursday evening at the downtown Salt Lake City Smith's store.

Police say the suspect purchased a knife inside the store and then turned it into a weapon. Smith's employee Dorothy Espinoza says, "He pulled it out and stood outside the Smiths in the foyer. And just started stabbing people and yelling you killed my people. You killed my people."

Espinoza says, the knife wielding man seriously injured two people. "There is blood all over. One got stabbed in the stomach and got stabbed in the head and held his hands and got stabbed all over the arms."

Then, before the suspect could find another victim - a citizen with a gun stopped the madness. "A guy pulled gun on him and told him to drop his weapon or he would shoot him. So, he dropped his weapon and the people from Smith's grabbed him."

By the time officers arrived the suspect had been subdued by employees and shoppers. Police had high praise for gun carrying man who ended the hysteria. Lt. Brian Purvis said, "This was a volatile situation that could have gotten worse. We can only assume from what we saw it could have gotten worse. He was definitely in the right place at the right time."

Dozens of other shoppers, who too could have become victims, are also thankful for the gun carrying man. And many, like Danylle Julian, are still in shock from the experience. "Scary actually. Really scary. Five minutes before I walk out to my car. It could have been me."

Police say right now they have no idea what caused the suspect to go on the dangerous rampage. (We will update as soon as we learn new information.)

So far, police have not released the names of the suspect, the victims or the man who pulled the gun.

[RodSBT]

Here too:

http://www.abc4.com/mostpopular/stor...tJtkKq3VA.cspx

SALT LAKE CITY (ABC 4 News) - Kiet Thanh Ly is accused of a stabbing spree at a downtown Salt Lake City supermarket.

The stabbing happened at the 400 South 600 East Smith's location April 26 at about 5:30 p.m. where the stabbings sent customers running for safety.

Police say Ly, who is 33-years-old, bought the knife at the store then stabbed two men in the parking lot and tried to stab others. Police say Ly did not know his victims.

The hero of the hour is a man with a concealed weapons permit. He held Ly at gunpoint until police arrived.

ABC 4 wants to know who he is so we went looking for answers and what we uncovered was a lengthy criminal record spanning 12 years.

His crimes began simple, but slowly escalated to dangerous levels.

His crimes include:
Theft, January 2012
Sexual Battery and Lewdness, October 2011
Attempted Assault against Police Officer, September 2011
Attempted Aggravated Assault, March 2011
Poss of Drug Paraphernalia & Attempted Poss or use of controlled substance, April 2009
False info to Police Officer, Drive on Suspended License, July 2004
Criminal Trespass, August 2000.

Kiet Thanh Ly alleged bought a knife in the Smith's store and used it to stab two men in the parking lot. Both men remain in critical condition one day after the stabbings.

"It's sad, but there are a lot of people out there under great stress. Great problems and they sometimes just break," said Virginia Walker who is visiting Salt Lake City.

Smith's spokeswoman Marsha Gilford is responding to the stabbings with this statement:

"We are shaken by this horrible and random act and we are offering counseling to our store associates who may have witnessed this violence. We send our most sincere wishes for healing to the two victims and we are grateful to those who came to their aid. We are also greatly indebted to the gentleman who kept the incident from escalating any further."

We dug a little deeper uncovering Ly's home address in court records. It led us to the a homeless shelter at 215 South Rio Grande Street in Salt Lake City. No one in the area seemed to know Ly.

MAN WITH CONCEALED WEAPONS PERMIT:

Salt Lake City police say the man who stopped the stabbings at Smith's is from rural Idaho and he doesn't want attention.

Police say he was in the right place at the right time and his quick action likely saved lives.

Ly dropped the knife in his hand when he saw a loaded handgun pointed at his body. Moments later a Smith's employee held Ly along with several others until police could arrest him.

ABC 4 talked with concealed weapons permit holders at a store called Bullet Shoot and Sports.

They say people with concealed weapons permits are trained to work with police.

Police say the man from Idaho perfectly followed all the training. He dropped his weapon with police arrived and complied with the investigation.

[David G]

Good for him! It really DOES happen at times... that someone carrying will be in the right spot at the right time, make the right decisions, and do more good than harm. Was he well-trained? Did he just have good judgement? Was he just plain lucky? We'll probably never know... but we do know he halted a very nasty situation.

[fishrswim]

Good job. With all the carry permits out there it seems that is should happen more often. Guess it's just a matter of statistics.

[Ron Williamson]

Imagine what could have happened if he'd bought a gun.
R

[purri]

The assailant's opponent should've had a knife, much more accurate and deadly. (no ricochets too)

[SamSam]

No, he should have just gone outside and called 911. The other people who the assailant attacked should have also just tried to get away. Much better to let the authorities handle it when they get there. That's what we have hospitals for.

Afterwards he should have stalked all suspicious looking people he didn't think had a right to be where they were, cornered and confronted them and shot them dead when they offered any resistance.
Then set up a website and beg for money.

[Phillip Allen]

what strikes me is the notion that after that flight augered in (in Penn) during the 911 day form hell, with proof that people fought back, that people are more likely to fight back than before. we had been conditioned by many sources, to be compliant. Since then, some have obviously begun to question the constant reiteration that, when faced with such events, we should lie down and hope for the best

[Bob Adams]

Afterwards he should have stalked all suspicious looking people he didn't think had a right to be where they were, cornered and confronted them and shot them dead when they offered any resistance.
Then set up a website and beg for money.

1st ammendment at work....even assinine statements are allowed.

[Phillip Allen]

1st ammendment at work....even assinine statements are allowed.

pretty damned asinine... I wasn't going to respond to the stupidity

[Art Reinhert]

No, he should have just gone outside and called 911. The other people who the assailant attacked should have also just tried to get away. Much better to let the authorities handle it when they get there. That's what we have hospitals for.

Remember, when seconds count the police are only minutes away.

[SamSam]

Just because the guy had co-assailants doesn't mean just anyone can follow them to tell the authorities which way they went. That's why the police have K-9 dogs.

I can't figure out what you mean, maybe you could explain.

I should probably have quoted this instead...

Doesn't sound like he stood his ground to me.

He should have just left the store and called 911. When the police and ambulances arrived an hour or two later they could have handled the situation.

I was commenting on the rightwing tendency of seeing the world as black/white. I think the guy at the mall did a very commendable thing. He put his life on the line and stopped a violent crime in progress. He handled it perfectly.
To compare him to Zimmerman, which Tanstaf is obviously doing, is an example of asininity and stupidity. (Tanstaf, I'm not saying you're asinine and stupid. Philip, maybe so) That rightwingers jump in and defend the comparison is sad. The guy at the mall stepped in and remedied a situation, he is a citizen. Zimmerman inserted himself into someone else's business, caused a situation and killed the person. He is a killer. Zimmerman is much more comparable to the nut job with the knife.

[Phillip Allen]

I'm wondering how many of us think we might have stepped in even without the gun... I know I would have, I've actually done it

[SamSam]

I'm wondering how many of us think we might have stepped in even without the gun... I know I would have, I've actually done it

That is a very brave thing to do.

[Phillip Allen]

That is a very brave thing to do.

nothing brave abaout it... stop the fight was in my mind... people were getting hurt

[Phillip Allen]

The guy in the mall is stupid. He will probably lose his carry permit so he can't use it to defend his life when he needs to. He should have let those other people who did not have the common sense to get a gun suffer the consequences of their ill preparedness.

As for Zimmerman you are right. He does not have the right to take measures for the high crime rate in his community to finally reach him. When his stuff gets stolen he can call the police and they will get right on it and assuredly find all his stuff intact and return it all to him and even connect his TV and stereo back up for him.

sarchasm really dosn't work very well... I try it myself every once in a while anyway but it doesn't work

[SamSam]

Apparently it doesn't work for me either. But then again, I'm working with the asinine and stupid.

[McMike]

This isn't a 2nd Amendment win; it's an example of the law of averages. This is not an example of why the 2nd or more precisely, how we interpreted the 2nd as a nation is a positive thing as a whole.

Do we know the facts? Did the gentleman with a gun have a clear line of fire? What if the knifeman rushed him?

He was in the foyer and could have been locked/blockaded in at a much lesser risk to other people, assuming the area was crowded with shoppers. But hey, this all turned out well so it must mean that America's gun culture is right.

[Phillip Allen]

This isn't a 2nd Amendment win; it's an example of the law of averages. This is not an example of why the 2nd or more precisely, how we interpreted the 2nd as a nation is a positive thing as a whole.

Do we know the facts? Did the gentleman with a gun have a clear line of fire? What if the knifeman rushed him?

He was in the foyer and could have been locked/blockaded in at a much lesser risk to other people, assuming the area was crowded with shoppers. But hey, this all turned out well so it must mean that America's gun culture is right.

I'm glad to see you using an even handed approach... I hadn't noticed it before

[SamSam]

The guy in the mall is stupid. He will probably lose his carry permit so he can't use it to defend his life when he needs to. He should have let those other people who did not have the common sense to get a gun suffer the consequences of their ill preparedness.

As for Zimmerman you are right. He does not have the right to take measures for the high crime rate in his community to finally reach him. When his stuff gets stolen he can call the police and they will get right on it and assuredly find all his stuff intact and return it all to him and even connect his TV and stereo back up for him.

Rightwingers, always reasonable. Kill people because they might possibly steal your stuff. Can we say paranoid?

[John Smith]

I don't recall ever hearing anyone argue that a man with a gun will sometimes stop a crime. Sometimes in an effort to stop a crime, the armed man may shoot the wrong person.

[coopercdrkey]

I hold a Concealed Weapon Permit issued by Florida, and I have tried to insure that I understand both the rights and the prohibitions that come with it.

I truly believe that some permittees, despite the required pre-permit training course, think that the State has granted them double-o status, and/or licensed them into some sort of civilian auxillary LEO squad.

The fact of the matter is that as soon as you pull and expose a weapon, you are just a guy (or girl) with a gun. You may be able to justify your position by means of the Castle Doctrine, or the so-called Stand Your Ground statute, but the time and expense incurred will be huge. And lord forbid you actually shoot or kill someone. Life as you know it will be over.

Would I pull my weapon to disarm a knife-wielding maniac? Yes, definitely, but with great trepidation, and with an appreciation of why the gentleman in this incident didn't want any publicity. It sounds as if he understands the statutes....

[McMike]

I'm glad to see you using an even handed approach... I hadn't noticed it before

Only because before I challenged your preconceived notions or rattled your bad mood. I mussta caught you in a good mood this morning.

[Phillip Allen]

Only because before I challenged your preconceived notions or rattled your bad mood. I mussta caught you in a good mood this morning.

how do you know all my notions are pre-concieved and yours are not?

[McMike]

how do you know all my notions are pre-concieved and yours are not?

Good point but logic makes for poor intertube sparring.

[Phillip Allen]

Good point but logic makes for poor intertube sparring.

logic seems to be much less important than faks... or emotion

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

About 2 week ago a young man was gunned down about 400 feet from the house I previously lived in. About 1 week ago an irate huband shotgunned his wife and two doughters at a Cracker Barrel store. It was on my jogging route and I passed it frequently.
About 3 months ago a teen ager with an injured ego shot 5 classmates of which 4 died in the nearby town of Chardon.
You were saying?

[wardd]

http://maxweber.hunter.cuny.edu/pub/...ER/linda-r.htm

[JimD]

This thread isn't about the US 2nd constitutional amendment. Its about carry permits

[Bob Adams]

This thread isn't about the US 2nd constitutional amendment. Its about carry permits

Gee, the right to bear arms has nothing to do with this?

[wardd]

could the same result have been obtained with a baseball bat?

[Dan McCosh]

could the same result have been obtained with a baseball bat?

That's how Elmore Leonard would do it.

[JimD]

Gee, the right to bear arms has nothing to do with this?

There are all kinds of legal rights and permissions that have no specific basis in any national constitution. You don't need any constitutional right to bear arms to make it legal to own and carry guns. You just pass a law and something becomes legal. Now if for some reason there was a constitutional amendment forbidding carrying guns then there'd be a problem.

[McMike]

About 2 week ago a young man was gunned down about 400 feet from the house I previously lived in. About 1 week ago an irate huband shotgunned his wife and two doughters at a Cracker Barrel store. It was on my jogging route and I passed it frequently.
About 3 months ago a teen ager with an injured ego shot 5 classmates of which 4 died in the nearby town of Chardon.
You were saying?

NORTH BEND, Wash. -- Law officers hunting for a self-trained survivalist suspected of killing his wife and daughter were planning on Saturday how to flush out an elaborate, underground bunker where he might be hiding in the woods of Washington state.

[JimD]

only if your personal view of the 2nd is accepted

I really don't have much of a personal view of your 2nd Amendment. It is what it is, that being 27 ( going by memory) vague words that have undergone a variety of legal interpretations over the years. And it makes little difference to me what that interpretation is.

[Ian McColgin]

If the second ammendment fundamentalists had their logical way, there'd be no such thing as a concealed carry permit to infringe on anyone carrying iron anywhere. The OP title falsifies the issue, which was more honestly stated in the click-to cite as, "Gun carrying man ends stabbing spree at Salt Lake grocery store"

A different story, such as the numerous examples of utterly innocent victems being shot that have been mentioned above or the Marting shooting for another example, could have been told just as easily.

In this case, it happens that a rational person was armed, on the spot, and behaved correctly. That's a good thing that proves nothing about gun control in general one way or the other.

[wardd]

the only way to prevent crime is with a gun

[JimD]

he is one of the ones who think it means only the army may have guns... remember?

Was there ever a time when you were capable of having an honest conversation? I'm trying to remember. It must have been a long time ago.

[wardd]

why would you say that... is there a message for us?

well if a gun isn't needed then there is less reason for carry laws

[Bob Adams]

If nothing else this incident clearly shows the need for a 7 day waiting period as well as a background check before the purchase of a knife.

[fishrswim]

It is estimated that there are 2.5 million defensive uses of firearms each year
http://stason.org/TULARC/society/pro...-year-can.html

[/FONT][/COLOR]

These numbers are totally bogus. This has been discredited on another thread.

BTW, don't call me an anti gun lib. I have a carry permit as does my wife. I just think we should use verifiable facts when discussing defensive gun use.

[John Smith]

I hold a Concealed Weapon Permit issued by Florida, and I have tried to insure that I understand both the rights and the prohibitions that come with it.

I truly believe that some permittees, despite the required pre-permit training course, think that the State has granted them double-o status, and/or licensed them into some sort of civilian auxillary LEO squad.

The fact of the matter is that as soon as you pull and expose a weapon, you are just a guy (or girl) with a gun. You may be able to justify your position by means of the Castle Doctrine, or the so-called Stand Your Ground statute, but the time and expense incurred will be huge. And lord forbid you actually shoot or kill someone. Life as you know it will be over.

Would I pull my weapon to disarm a knife-wielding maniac? Yes, definitely, but with great trepidation, and with an appreciation of why the gentleman in this incident didn't want any publicity. It sounds as if he understands the statutes....

If all the world were so reliable. I have no problem with people havingn permits to carry concealed weapons. I don't see any way to write an effective gun control law, so I haven't supported many.

My questions would be more along the lines of having your concealed weapon while drunk. I would find that potentially more dangerous than driving under the influence.

[John Smith]

I really don't understand threads of this nature. I'll go on record as believing that easy access to guns creates more problems than it solves. That said, I am still waiting for someone to propose an effective way to change this.

Given that there are so many guns in the hands of private citizens, and guns, unlike cars, don't tend to wear out over a decade, how on earth would anyone keep the guns out of the hands of the bad guys? This is like the war on drugs: pointless.

[Shang]

Imagine what could have happened if he'd bought a gun.
R

Good point, Ron.
Or for that matter, what if the gun-owner had shot the knife-guy, but the bullet passed through knife-guy and into the crowd beyond?

Here's an idea (and keep in mind that I am a gun owner), what if the states began issuing "Concealed Baseball Bat Permits"? Couldn't most of us subdue a knife-guy if we were armed with a Louisville Slugger?

[Horace]

These numbers are totally bogus. This has been discredited on another thread.

Could you reference the thread and the pertinent posts? I seem to remember some discussion of this, and that it involved SaltyBruce on one side; but since you're the one using it in this discussion, you probably will be more able to go directly to the citations discrediting the stats quoted above.

[wardd]

are there conditions attached under which it is permitted to carry a weapon and when it's not permitted?

[stevebaby]

I think they've already done that in the UK... and ya gotta be 18 to purchace toothpics

Arkansas Code Annotated §5-73-120. Carrying a weapon. (a) A person commits the offense of carrying a weapon if he or she possesses a handgun, knife, or club on or about his or her person, in a vehicle occupied by him or her, or otherwise readily available for use with a purpose to employ the handgun, knife, or club as a weapon against a person.
http://www.asp.state.ar.us/divisions/rs/pdf/chl_faq.pdf

[John Smith]

Martin blind side attacked Zimmerman and was beating his head against the curb. Zimmerman has a right to self defense.

How do you know that? Explain to me how Martin wasn't standing his ground.

[wardd]

How do you know that? Explain to me how Martin wasn't standing his ground.

because martin didn't have a gun

[John Smith]

because martin didn't have a gun

One need not have a gun to feel threatened and stand his ground. Maybe Martin felt he was in danger because he was being followed. Florida law lets him stand his ground and attack the one following him, no?