Restoration of MINDE, a 1903 Pilot Cutter

[svaap]

A new plank on the hull on Friday afternoon.

I have several video-clips from the trip home to Norway with Minde.
Posting one now (takes forever on my computer to upload the video -slow internet connection).


The decks were a bit unorganized, but we needed to store the pipes for the winter-cover on deck.

[wizbang 13]

Thanks, I know posting videos is a pita.
Thole pins, That how you fellas stay warm?

[chas]

"That how you fellas stay warm?"

That berth with your head next to the heater stack looks cosy enough. Love the video, OLe, brings out the focus of the work your doing in earlier posts. / Jim

[Cogeniac]

What a great thread!! and a great boat!

[Larks]

Nice vid' Ole, looks like ideal sailing conditions, thanks for posting that

[Ryden]

I really don't know the latin name for the Juniper that we have locally.
All I know is that is it the first choice of wood to use for wooden trunnels up here, and always has been.
It is very rot resistant and tough, and often is the best part of most old rotten wooden vessels...

That would be Juniperus Communis

[svaap]

The thole pins are for a 4,5 meter long oar.

We have not rowed Minde, but I know that the former owners did. They could report that once she got going, the weight/momentum kept her gliding (in calm and flat sea).

When planking, it is a bit disappointing to find rot-knots/cracks in the middle of a nice plank, making is useless for the one I had in mind.
Finding a new is not just a matter of flipping the stack, as they are huge and I need a tractor/forklift to handle them. Some of the planks were delivered 65 milimeters thick (!) as I had to get what they had that was dried sufficiently. But that is just the way it is..

Cheers,

[Harm P]

Hi Ole,

What we used to do with smallish knots and impurities in the planks, was to cut them out in a diamond shape with a small wedge.
Size and shape depended on the size of the knot and the grain of the wood ( go with the flow - so to speak).
We would bend the plank first (using a gas torch instead of a steam box) and than glue the diamond in.
I know the method is not 100% honkydory if you want to do a proper restauration, but it can save a plank (and a lot of money), especially in a non critical area. We use modern materials and techniques anyway.
The thickness of planks I used them on was 20 to around 35 mm.

Since I'm new to this forum maybe my suggestion was already made earlier and discarted by the experts, but I never saw one failing. Especilally when supported from the back of the plank, they can never pop out.

Cheers,

[Peerie Maa]

Hi Ole,

What we used to do with smallish knots and impurities in the planks, was to cut them out in a diamond shape with a small wedge.
Size and shape depended on the size of the knot and the grain of the wood ( go with the flow - so to speak).
We would bend the plank first (using a gas torch instead of a steam box) and than glue the diamond in.
I know the method is not 100% honkydory if you want to do a proper restauration, but it can save a plank (and a lot of money), especially in a non critical area. We use modern materials and techniques anyway.
The thickness of planks I used them on was 20 to around 35 mm.

Since I'm new to this forum maybe my suggestion was already made earlier and discarted by the experts, but I never saw one failing. Especilally when supported from the back of the plank, they can never pop out.

Cheers,

This is probably why we call those diamonds of wood "Dutchmen"

[svaap]

Yes, repairing knots will be neccessary on some of them, but the ones I found was way to large I think.

I was wondering if anyone has tried to glue edge-cracks on planks that already are installed?
One of ny planks has a crack that runs all the way through the plank in a location I need to place
a nail... Would epoxy injected with a needle work?
Should I cut open the crack and glue in a strip of wood instead?

The location worries me, because it's placed on the upper aft of
one of the planks with a lot of twist on it..


Suggestions?

[Peerie Maa]

That might be OK but for the nail, which will wedge the glue line open again. Can you not move the nail further into the plank away from the split?

[Harm P]

"Dutchmen" I like that. Never knew you called them that. Thriftiness is still a virtue isn't it

Ole:
I think Epoxy from a syringe will work, (the stuff keeps amazing me) but it doesn't feel right...
I did a repair like you described and it worked very well. It was an old plank, so I think the tension was gone.
I routed and cut around 2/3 of the thickness of the plank and glued a strip in place, just like you suggested.
I filled the bottom of the cut with thickened epoxy, that was squeezed out on the inside of the crack. This made up for the not so perfect fit of the strip where it landed on the original material.
To the best of my knowledge it's still in place.

I wonder what the English call this type of repair.....

Harm

[Peerie Maa]

"Dutchmen" I like that. Never knew you called them that. Thriftiness is still a virtue isn't it

Ole:
I think Epoxy from a syringe will work, (the stuff keeps amazing me) but it doesn't feel right...
I did a repair like you described and it worked very well. It was an old plank, so I think the tension was gone.
I routed and cut around 2/3 of the thickness of the plank and glued a strip in place, just like you suggested.
I filled the bottom of the cut with thickened epoxy, that was squeezed out on the inside of the crack. This made up for the not so perfect fit of the strip where it landed on the original material.
To the best of my knowledge it's still in place.

I wonder what the English call this type of repair.....

Harm

Before reliable glues a bodge. Now we call it a spline.

[headonz]

Great video,looking forward to the others if you manage to get them up.

[PeterSibley]

Yes, repairing knots will be neccessary on some of them, but the ones I found was way to large I think.

I was wondering if anyone has tried to glue edge-cracks on planks that already are installed?
One of ny planks has a crack that runs all the way through the plank in a location I need to place
a nail... Would epoxy injected with a needle work?
Should I cut open the crack and glue in a strip of wood instead?

The location worries me, because it's placed on the upper aft of
one of the planks with a lot of twist on it..


Suggestions?

Would it be possible to lift the plank out enough to cross bolt it ? Drill and run a 10mm copper bolt cross wise in the center, a horrible suggestion I know but you wouldn't have to worry about the crack any more .

If not I'd fit a dutchman where you need the nail but not rely on epoxy to hold the crack, sound wood would be the way to go.

[SV Papillon]

Can you put a block on the inside on either side of the frame where the check is, kinda butt blocks with no butt. You would probably want to screw or bolt through the plank into them which might not work with the restoration type construction you are doing. It would lock everything together on the plank in question.

Jake

[PeterSibley]

Can you put a block on the inside on either side of the frame where the check is, kinda butt blocks with no butt. You would probably want to screw or bolt through the plank into them which might not work with the restoration type construction you are doing. It would lock everything together on the plank in question.

Jake

A good idea, better than mine.

[svaap]

The check is on the landing for the sternpost/knee into the rabbet.

I have this Fein Multicutter, and will be able to make a nice cut into the crack to open it up a bit for the spline.
Also, there is plenty of options to put more fasteners into the plank in that area, as it is backed all the way by the knee on the inside.
The problem is that it is a lot of tension at the same area, holding the twist of the plank.
I guess the tension will ease up over time..

[Redeye]

In an area like Ole describes, one in which the strength is important, I would want to make sure that any spline, bodge or dutchman was done using exactly the same grain orientation and grain density as the piece being fixed. any swelling will be less likely to contradict the plank it's self and will be less likely to add permanent stress to the glue joint.
I would also want to consider using resorcinol if a very good fit could be achieved, mainly because the epoxy might just let go of the oak esp if the oak is not perfectly dry.

Of course my opinion may be based upon heresy and rumour but it can't hurt to think about it all the same.

I looked at fixing a stem up where just the ends of the planks were shot where the fixings were. The only way I could see of doing it was to scarf new ends on the planks, one could also consider doing that if it meets your strict quality requirements.

[PeterSibley]

The check is on the landing for the sternpost/knee into the rabbet.

.

Bearing the location in mind perhaps cross bolting would be a good idea Ole?

[svaap]

This is the plank in question:
The crack is not visible, as I needed to leave the clamps in place since one fastening is missing (in the area of the crack).




Cross bolting is a new idea to me. Fitting such a bolt will be difficult though, but I guess i could drill a hole and glue a wooden "bolt" through the plank, in addition to a spline?


Would this work?

[PeterSibley]

Basically a cross trunnel? That should work. If it were possible to spring out the hood end then drill for a 10 or 12mm copper rod , peen one end and thread the other for a nut, that might work too. The trunnel would be easier !

[svaap]

I'm afraid it will be impossible to spring ut the hood end, as they are fastened with big nails that are really hard to get out of sound wood without damaging the plank itself.

I have heard that it is possible to weld a new nail on-top of the recessed one, and try to force it out with a pry bar, but success in not a guarantee

[Peerie Maa]

This is the plank in question:
The crack is not visible, as I needed to leave the clamps in place since one fastening is missing (in the area of the crack).

How close to the edge is the crack, and for how long does it extend?

[svaap]

The crack is in the hood end of the plank, starting in the end-grain.
It's about 20 cm long.

[Peerie Maa]

The crack is in the hold end of the plank, starting in the end-grain.
It's about 20 cm long.

How close to the edge?

[svaap]

It is in the hood end (the very end of the plank).
(I edited "hold" to "hood").

I have an idea, and would like your comments;

If I drive the last spike, allowing the wood to possibly split more, and then cut open the crack and glue in a spline.
How does that sound?

[Peerie Maa]

How close to the edge?

It is in the hood end (the very end of the plank).
(I edited "hold" to "hood").

I have an idea, and would like your comments;

If I drive the last spike, allowing the wood to possibly split more, and then cut open the crack and glue in a spline.
How does that sound?

Planks have four "edges" a hood end aft, a hood end forward, an upper edge and a lower edge. I realize that it starts in the hood end and follows the grain along, but how close to the top or bottom edge is it? Is it in the middle of the width?

[svaap]

Oh, i got it...

I would say it is about 2" down from the top.

[chas]

Ole /

From the second pic of post #87, that part of the plank could be a little suspect around what appears to be a knot or crossgrain between two holes. Is it possible that this area is contributing to some weakness of the plank? / Jim

[Peerie Maa]

Oh, i got it...

I would say it is about 2" down from the top.

OK,
The "loose" edge is too narrow to take a fastening into the sternpost. How about injecting glue into the split, driving some fastenings (glued juniper dowels?) in from the edge vertically down into the center of the plank to back up the glue, and then when the next plank is hung, rely on the caulking to hold the crack closed. With compression, glue for a sealer and some fastenings to stop it working there should be no leaks. I would hang the next plank, and wedge it down to compress the split before driving the last hood end fastening at say 3 inches down from the top.

[svaap]

Took the two hour drive to the yard after work today, with plans of hanging another plank on the starboard side.

After adjusting the rabbet, I measured the bevels and transferred them to the plank and was ready to plane it down, only to find out that my Hitachi had broken down...
Had to hand-plane the bevel with dull planer that took forever...






Thats just about all I had time to do before my two hour return back home...

[PeterSibley]

That's BEAUTIFUL planking stock Ole!

and I don't envy your commute

[Cogeniac]

I'm still a little unclear about where this crack is located.

Is it here?



Looks pretty minor to me. I'd squirt some epoxy into it (maybe some CPES so it will flow into the crack), and then put two long cross screws in on the edge, one on each side of the fastener that caused the crack. Then move the fastener down about 2 cm to avoid splitting the plank again. Drill the new fastener hole slightly large in the plank so the fastener isn't putting stress on the hole and trying to split the plank (I suspect this is a good idea for the hood ends of any planks).

[svaap]

I will take a picture of the crack next time I am there.

This weekend they are arranging "Sail Isegran" together with the "Colin Archer Club" (SSCA) "Trutningseilas", and a lot of nice sailboats will be attending.
The weather is really nice up here right now, hot and sunny, so it will be a beautiful sight with a lot of traditional boats. (Will take pictures)

Chas:
The crack you are referring to is the area circeled by Cogeniac, and actually is a crack in the middle of a sound knot. I know it is not ideal to have a knot in the beveling edge of a plank, but I think it will be ok with some glue in it to prevent water to ingress.

The crack I am conserned about is actually en the very end of the plank (the cut).
Will be clarified once I post a picture of it.

Thank you for all your help!

[chainyank]

Can you put a block on the inside on either side of the frame where the check is, kinda butt blocks with no butt. You would probably want to screw or bolt through the plank into them which might not work with the restoration type construction you are doing. It would lock everything together on the plank in question.

Jake

I have a few of these on my boat. They were done by the previous owner. Poly-glued and riveted into place. They seem to be holding up well. I like this idea better than glue ingection, that check is bound to swell, and the epoxy will help to wedge the check open more. Do you have Ettan there? It works great for small cracks (1-3mm), these tend to swell to 0mm when wet and all the Ettan is squeezed out.

[chainyank]

Took the two hour drive to the yard after work today, with plans of hanging another plank on the starboard side.

After adjusting the rabbet, I measured the bevels and transferred them to the plank and was ready to plane it down, only to find out that my Hitachi had broken down...
Had to hand-plane the bevel with dull planer that took forever...






Thats just about all I had time to do before my two hour return back home...

That is great planking stock!!!!

[svaap]

Chainyank:

Yes, we do have "Ettan" here as well. I guess that would be a good alternative, as the excess material will be squeezed out once the planking swells up.
If I choose to glue the crack, then I will make sure that I route out/cut out a groove for a spline (of the same material as the plank itself) to be glued in.

I am not against the use of glue, but must confess that I try to avoid it as much as I can for such a classic boat as Minde.
Soon I will send in an application for Minde to be considered put of the Gouvermental list of "Historical vessels", as they only consider supporting (financially) vessels that are on that list.
It is required that the work is carried out according to the tradition/methodes the boat was originally built with.

/Ole

[Gerarddm]

I am completely blown away by the skill and effort represented on this thread.

I salute you.

[J.Madison]

I had a very similar issue on my port garboard. It required a lot of twist and I had a clamp barely on the planks top corner to pull in the aft hood end. The load was not spread enough and the cedar cracked before I realized it. So I pulled the plank and worked liquid epoxy down in the crack by forcing it open and closed with epoxy pooled on top. I did this from each side before clamping to bring the crack closed and let it harden. Then it was sanded clean and hung without further issue. My boat is much smaller than yours and the plank was not yet fastened but I thought I would share how I handled it.

[chas]

"Chas:
The crack you are referring to is the area circeled by Cogeniac"

Ole / I haven't seen a crack yet but was assuming from your description and other factors that the crack originated from the plank end at approximately the point under the ends of the clamping pads, in line with the upper hood end fasteners. Restoring Minde using traditional methods only should be very interesting for those of us watching here. / Jim

[svaap]

Jim, I was thinking about the crack visible just beside the tape on the pic on #124.
The one I am worried about is excactly were you are assuming.

I don't know, but guess that the way to solve this back in 1903 would be to fill the crack with something sticky that would not harden before the plank swelled.
What do you think about tallow from sheeps, mixed with pine tar?


Thanks Madison for your experience.
The challenge in my case, is that I really can not pull the fastenings to get the plank out - they are stuck..
Considering "cheating" by using epoxy, or to put my faith in that a flexible mastic will do the job until the plank takes up and the pressure will close the crack.


I got a poster (100 cm by 80 cm) for the festival this weekend, with a brief description of Minde's history on it, all printed on the same material as good-quality boat-covers.





/Ole

[Peerie Maa]

I don't know, but guess that the way to solve this back in 1903 would be to fill the crack with something sticky that would not harden before the plank swelled.
What do you think about tallow from sheeps, mixed with pine tar?

/Ole

Pine tar is too runny, we would have used tallow and pitch. For stopping a crack in a plank my grandfather used household soap which does not dissolve in sea water, but will squeeze out as the boat takes up.

[chas]

Ole /

I still think that plank looks a little suspect along the grain that lines with the two upper holes. If however, you think it feels solidly attached to the keel assembly, then I might leave well enough alone. Someone earlier mentioned the idea of a drift to pin the crack together. A couple of small diameter pins, driven on a slight angle down through the crack from the top edge of the plank might assist in preventing the crack from expanding, but would allow it to swell tight.

I think my choice for old-fashioned mastic for that crack is clear by now. Roofing tar in a tube, something with body. In a five-gallon pail they call it fiba-gum around here. My favorite brand ...

http://www.rustoleum.ca/CBGProduct.asp?pid=84

I think they must have had a version of this in 1903, LOL. / Jim

[PeterSibley]

Pine tar is too runny, we would have used tallow and pitch. For stopping a crack in a plank my grandfather used household soap which does not dissolve in sea water, but will squeeze out as the boat takes up.

This stuff was invented prior to 1901 http://www.sculpture.net/community/s...ead.php?t=2615

[Cogeniac]

I thought you were trying to fasten the plank on the crack line...

As long as you can fasten the plank with the crack there, I would not even worry about it. It will swell closed.

With Makoto, I had gaps between the planks that showed light on the hard, and in 2 days she was tight as anything.

Scott

[svaap]

Scott;

One fastener is missing in the area of the crack, the upper edge of the plank.

Thanks for suggestions of different goops to fill the crack with!

[jsjpd1]

Ole,

I had sometime this weekend and painted Minde, hope you like it. I'm enjoying following along on your project.



Jim

[svaap]

Wow Jim, what a beautiful painting!!

Thanks a lot for your gesture, I am really thankful!

[PeterSibley]

That's excellent Jim, do you do much watercolour ?