engine and wiring issue

[rideaubill]

Hi all, I have a 1959 26 ft utility boat with a cc 454 v8 engine. I am having two problems that I am not sure how to tackle since electrical work is just not something I am good at!
First, when I start the boat in my driveway with a water hookup the regulator starts to smoke after it has run a few mins at any amount of rev'd speed, none of the wiring seems to overheat or melt, but do notice an amout of smoke coming from the regulator. The boat has not run full out for a few yeras as i have been restoring it.

Second, I may have a short somewhere. If I leave my battery connected I lose all it's power after a few days, there is no issue with the battery as it holds power when not connected. I have no idea how to find the problem, caqn anyone help with these two items?

Thanks

Bill

[Hunky Dory]

If you have the old style regulator with contact points inside I would start by removing the cover and making sure the contacts arn't stuck together or corroded.
The next thing would be to switch to an alternator with an internal regulator

[Gib Etheridge]

I once saw a battery explode because the starter bendix was frozen on and the engine was turning over the starter, making it into a generator. Since there was no regulator between the starter and the battery, and since the starter was producing a LOT of energy the battery got severely overcharged as the folks drove down the highway. I don't remember what happened to the regulator, but I expect that it got fried as well, probably well before the battery ignited.

By now you must need to replace the regulator, and if it's the same scenario as above the starter and alternator and perhaps the starter relay as well. It could be that the relay sticks. That would cause the starter to remain engaged.

[Michael D. Storey]

Pre-alternator technology ( read 1920's cutting edge technology) is as simple as can be. I go with Mr. Dory, above. The conversion is simple and cheap, and provides more usable and reliable current.

[rideaubill]

Hi All, it's been a while since I could get forum as well as to actually loo at my boat for this season. I had cleaned the regulator, nothing seemed to be sticking afterwards, however it continued to smoke from what appears to be cermaic resistors on the back side. If changing to an alternator is the way to go, Is there a size I would need, wiring diagrams etc, as stated originally, wiring is not my thing. Boat starts fine, runs fine, just this smoking issue.

Thanks for any help!!

Bill

[PaulT]

Bill: If you haven't done it so far, when you next arrive at the boat to start it, disconnect everything at the panel...meaning open all the breakers, or by what ever means necessary (like taking any wiring off at a small wiring block). All you want working is the charging circuit to the battery through the alternator. All lighting, nav equipment, radios, fish finders, what ever...all those circuits are open at the breaker panel. Then start it and see if it still smokes. If it doesn't, you're half way there. If it does..you can have the alternator rebuilt easily. There are plenty of places that can do that for you. But I'd still want to know for sure what is draining the battery.

[Figment]

The next thing would be to switch to an alternator with an internal regulator

I'd say this is the FIRST thing to do.
My first atomic-4 had an oldschool generator/regulator setup. After a few rebuilds I acquired a spare and spare regulators, and used them.
The next motor had a dead-simple motorola 30 amp one-wire alternator. (this was a good thing, as the one local who truly knew what he was doing with regulators and generators had passed away) Out of habit, I acquired a spare alternator. I only used it once, and then only to confirm that the other alternator was just fine and that the charge problem originated elsewhere.
Want it? http://www.ebay.com/itm/110869156446...84.m1555.l2649

[Cogeniac]

First of all, try disconnecting the battery entirely, and let it sit a few days. It is entirely possible that the battery is old, and it is just internally discharging. it is even conceivable that the battery has enough juice to crank the engine, but it is in a constant state of low charge, so the alternator is dumping lots and lots of current into it and that is causing the smoking.

If the battery is OK, and/or if replacing it doesn't fix the problem, use a volt meter and test the battery voltage with the engine off. Write down the value. it should be between 11.8 and 12.2 volts, or so. Start the engine with the alternator disconnected, and retest the battery voltage. If it is higher than the original readings, then you probably have the starter issue described above (although this is very rare). My guess is that it is some weirdness in the regulator and it will go away when you upgrade the alternator and/or change the battery.

The "One wire" alternator is truly simple. You bolt it on in the same way as the old one (make sure the pulley is right, a lot of new ones come with a flat pullet for a serpentine belt). Pull off all of the old alternator wiring. The new alternator will have only a single post with a nut. Connect that to a large wire (e.g. a #8 wire with the appropriate ring fitting crimped on), and route that to the battery. If you don't have a terminal lug on the battery with a post, swap it out for one that has the post. You will get better reliability with a marine post and nut connection than with a crappy automotive style clamp.

If the battery was draining by itself, then that is probably why the battery would go dead over time. If this is not the case, then you also have a short somewhere. The easiest way to find this is to disconnect the battery and put an ohmmeter on the battery wires (not on the battery, but on the wires that were connected to it). The ohmmeter function is usually part of a typical low cost volt meter (they usually measure voltage, current and resistance (ohms)). Turn on all the breakers, and turn off all the electronics, lights, etc. If you have fuses, just leave them in and turn everything off.

If the resistance is less than about 100 ohms, then start flipping breakers (or removing fuses) one at a time. Make note of the change in resistance each time. If flipping one of the breakers (or removing a fuse) causes the resistance to go up, then you have a load on that circuit. You then will need to find anything connected to that circuit and disconnect it. It may be a lamp, or a bad piece of electronics,or even a short in the wires. Be systematic, and you should; find it. Common places where problems can occur are in lamps since they are exposed to weather, and you may have internal corrosion or salt (or both) that is causing a low level short.

Good luck!

[rideaubill]

Thanks Paul, I will try that out... easy to do since I have the connections to the engine and all other items as a seperate wires to the battery. i will try that out and get back to you.

[rideaubill]

Thanks Cogeniac , There is no issue with the battery it is quite new, however I just may have a short somewhere, the end of last season I had a drained battery a few times when I left it in place, I didn't think the bilge pump would have cause it in the short time it took. I would take it, if i have a short this would also cause the regulator to start smoking? I do have a meter so i will try and check if the battery charges as well as look for a short, Unfortunatly my wiring is a mesh mash of old and new, everything seems to run ok but they could quite likely be a short across something.. Oh the joy

[Cogeniac]

Here is a nice tutorial on old-school regulators

http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/83.cfm

Note that when the points on the voltage regulator or current regulator are open, the current passes through a resistor. If either resistor is getting hot, it means that the points are not closing, or they are crudded up so that when they close the resistance is still too high, so current is always passing through the resistor.

I'd start by replacing the regulator.

S

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

If you have an old black box style prestolite voltage regulator, (CC used them years ago) you could have a whole pile of bug dust and cocoons inside it, it's burning off the regulator guts.

[seo]

Assuming that the engine in question is really a 454, that dates it no older than 1970, I think. Earlier than that you had the 427 and 409. Early seventies is about the time that GM brought out their 61 amp Delco one-wire alternator.
I think that the "engaged starter" problem is possible, but not common. It's pretty cheap to have an alternator shop test an alternator and regulator.
The method of tracing a dead short is exactly as "Cogeniac" describes it, with one small addendum: The First Law of Thermodynamics states that work is heat, heat is work. So if you have a dead short somewhere, it it generating heat. Once you've isolated the circuit that's giving you trouble, check for heat with fingertips, or a remote-sensing thermometer. That will be where the problem is.

[rideaubill]

Thanks to all, I shut down now all except the engine and found I was charging, battery went from 11.7 to 13,5v so looks like the alternator is good. Regulator smoked a bit less but still did after cleaned the contacts. Seems the lower relay is sticky...I would hope a.new.regulator will do it.