SOF family fleet : kids' recreational kayak

[neoconocephalus]

Last year's build of a Dave Gentry C12 was a big success with the whole family and now everybody wants to have one. We decided that a fleet of 3 recreational kayaks would be the best for our family of 4 (the kids are 9 and 11) to go on family paddle trips at our cabin. The fleet will be used on a reservoir with many quiet coves to birdwatch, fish, chase snakes and all the other things that need to be done. We will never be more than 500m from the shore and there is very little motor boat traffic.
So, I am currently building a Chuckanut 15 and the idea is that one adult will be in the C12, the other with one kid in the C15, and the other kid will be in a kid recreational kayak. The kids can switch as they get tired, so we should be able to get some distance covered.

So far I could not find a suitable design. The Yost's kid-kayaks seem a little narrow for our purposes. We are not really looking for kayaks, but rather for 'decked double paddle canoes.' It would be nice, if the whole family had the same type of boats. Also one of the kids is a little hesitant in boats, so a more stable design is more adequate. If the kids want something more sporty in the future, I will be happy to build it with them. Keep in mind that these kids' boats will be outgrown in a couple of years anyway.

My internet searched did not bring up any designs to these parameters. So I thought that a Chuckanut 12 shrunk to 80% in all three dimensions would be a good solution. This would result in 50% volume, which should be adequate for kids up to 100 pounds or so. And then, to save some work and weight, I thought of dropping the second chine of the C9. The picture shows the 5 frames, on the right the original version with two chines, on the left, with the second chine removed. The numbers are the reduced size in cm.

Any thoughts on this approach?


Alternatively, did I miss any designs for our purpose? Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Johannes

[Bram V]

Isn't this a very small amount of rocker for any rowing vessel?

[Dan St Gean]

Less rocker means straighter tracking...good for kids I would think. I'm thinking of doing a kid's kayak for my 5 year old daughter as well. Some of the anthropomorphic measurements might work well for that approach as a baseline for beam and length.

Dan

[Chris Ostlind]

Dan, I think that you will find that a slightly asymmetrical hull shape, while maintaining the bow rocker and just slight bit of stern rocker, will give the kayak a straight tracking tendency, while still allowing it to turn easily with gentle lean and paddle input. The difference between a boat that is well mannered and one that requires lots of corrective strokes to stay on course is measured in tiny increments.

Kids can have a short span of attention for things like a misbehaving kayak. A hassle free experience is a good way to get them to come back to the boat over and again.

[Dan St Gean]

You got that right! here's Yost's Sea Flea.

[Banksia Bob]

Johannes, I will be interested to hear your decision in respect to downsizing the C12. I have three Great Grandchildren, under 8 years, who all want Kayaks like the C15 I built, with a lot of patient advice from Dave Gentry. Dave may be the one to advise on the practicality of reducing the C12 by 20% and maintaining safety.

[Dan St Gean]

After measuring and drawing the four frames for the Sea Flea 11 with Abi my five year old daughter, I cut out the frames and think I've got enought stuff sitting in the garage to ger it done without any trips to the store. I'll have to get some skin and have not decided on the style yet. PVC or dacron... I'm leaning to heat shrunk dacron.

Dan

[neoconocephalus]

Bob, I hope I will get to this boat in a few weeks. Yes, I will be in touch with Dave G. before starting. I hope work will slow down somewhat next week so that I can finish the C15 and get that part of the fleet ready for the water.
Dan, I have been looking at the SeaFlea, but am concerned that this is not stable enough for comfort (mom's and mine). I have seen several pictures of the initial sea-trials (or pool trials) of these boats, but have heard little about the long term experience. I think some more recreational kayak (or double paddle canoe) would be better for our uses.
Johannes

[Dan St Gean]

Dan, I have been looking at the SeaFlea, but am concerned that this is not stable enough for comfort (mom's and mine). I have seen several pictures of the initial sea-trials (or pool trials) of these boats, but have heard little about the long term experience. I think some more recreational kayak (or double paddle canoe) would be better for our uses.
Johannes

I can address that in a hurry...it won't. It's for kids only with a weight range for the 11'er at 50-100#. Looking at the deck beam through which a paddler puts their legs--definately only for kids. I couldn't fit one leg in there past my calf, but I'm also over 4 times the size of my daughter in weight and three feet taller. At 19" it is skinny, but I paddled a Guillemot Expedition at 21". Scale down the boat and with the lower center of gravity of a kid and it'll be stable enough once they are used to it. 'Till then, it's wise to use a set of floats to make it a little trimaran.

Dan

[DGentry]

I do have plans for - and several have been built - a Chuckanut 10. I haven't listed them on my plans page as there is little demand, but the boat itself is just dandy.
I still kind of think that these rec kayaks are a bit too wide for comfortable paddling by little kids - but they are reassuring in their stability. The C10 is narrower and less stable than the C12 (and a bit harder to build, as there are more severe bends required for the stringers), but is still relaxed, easy and fun to use.
For clarity, I'm not advertising here to sell plans for the C10 . . . since you've already built some of my boats, I'd be happy just to send you the offsets for her (shhhh, don't tell anyone!).

All that being said, I think a Tom Yost Sea Pup is a great boat for kids. It does seem narrow, but kids are pretty narrow, too, and they get used to the balance very quickly (and outriggers can help with that, for sure). It's a boat they won't get bored in it, and it's a good boat to learn to roll in, too. It's an easy build, in any case, and - like all these SOF boats - can be built very quickly and cheaply.

Good luck!
Dave

[Dan St Gean]

Dave,

Good points. I need to get my feet wet with some SOF anyhow. Built strip and ply, but havn't gotten the bug until I thought I'd build a little pink kayak for my daughter.

[AnalogKid]

I can address that in a hurry...it won't. It's for kids only with a weight range for the 11'er at 50-100#. Looking at the deck beam through which a paddler puts their legs--definately only for kids. I couldn't fit one leg in there past my calf, but I'm also over 4 times the size of my daughter in weight and three feet taller. At 19" it is skinny, but I paddled a Guillemot Expedition at 21". Scale down the boat and with the lower center of gravity of a kid and it'll be stable enough once they are used to it. 'Till then, it's wise to use a set of floats to make it a little trimaran.

Dan

When I built the SeaFlea for my son I went and revised frame 2, raising the top of the aperture by perhaps a couple of inches. It worked out just fine and the boat paddles beautifully with minimal effort. He felt very unstable at first in a 12' long, 19" wide kayak because he was used to 9' long 30" wide plastic jobs used by outdoor centres, but as long as we pick mornings when the wind is light, it manages just fine in and out of the little bays in our part of the harbour, and if the wind and waves pick up, we just head for the shore.

[Dan St Gean]

I've got the frames already cut out and I did have my daughter put her feet through the frame to see how it fits her. shouldn't be too much trouble. I may thin it down some if I need to, but i'll get the frame put together first to see how she likes it. Did you have him sit on the floorboards or go with something like the CLC happy bottom pad? For my strip built kayak, I carved minicell foam for the seat.

[neoconocephalus]

Thanks for all the contributions.

Dan: I meant with "not stable enough for comfort (mom's and mine)" not that we would paddle in the kids boat - we have our C12 and C15 for that - but rather that we would not be comfortable with the kids venturing out of the cove without us being right there. The great thing for kids having their own boats is the independence that they gain. It was so empowering for our older one when she took her micromouse for the first time out of the cove, anchored and fished on her own.

Analogkid: We are looking for a boat to go on somewhat longer trips on our lake, which is quite windy and often has choppy water. The idea of the fleet is that the kids have to paddle only half the time, as they would switch in and out of the C15. Also, secondary activities like birdwatching or fishing are also important. Your comments confirm somewhat my suspicion that the Seapup would be too unstable for our purpose. I do want to avoid the 9'x30" plastic tubs.

Dave: Thanks for your offer. If the C10 is the choice, I will happily buy the plans - I got already enough free stuff from you. I think the adult recreational kayaks are too wide and high for the kids to effectively paddle. That is why I thought about shrinking the C12 by 80% in each direction, resulting in 50% volume (and maybe making it a little less high). This should result, I hope, in about the same stable boat for a 50% paddler (i.e. a 50-100lb kid), as I explained my reasoning in the OP. Any thoughts on this?
BTW: The C15 plans worked so far very well. Highly recommended!

Johannes

[AnalogKid]

Dan - here's the build thread. As you can see, I too had cut out the frames but I just modified frame two and joined the new top pieces to the old bottom part with ply fillets. He sits on the floor at the moment but I'll make a seat pad and back rest (he complains that the cockpit coaming cuts in) out of closed cell foam.

Johannes - I've also got a 16' S&T double kayak that I'll finish this southern winter. It will allow us to do family trips in water much rougher than I would want to use any kid's sized kayak (stability comes from length as well as width). The harbour has quite a fetch to our beach when the (prevailing) wind is from the south-west and a 2' short, steep chop is unfortunately common.

Andy.