Which Glue?????

[sailcanoefan]

Resorcinol seems to be the best glue for wooden boat construction, but is toxic. Epoxy is very good but may be hazardous. I'm not even sure resorcinol is still available (in Canada).

Gorilla, or polyurethane???

My question is: what glue is usually taken for wooden boat construction? I've been watching YouTube clips about Strip Canoe being glued with ''White Glue''

I want to build my 19 foot sailbot, using a very good glue (and as safe as possible).

I've been reading lately about glue, and I'am more mixed-up than ever.

Titebond lll Ultimate was my choice, but seems to creep.
Anyone here used Titebond lll Ultimate and was happy with this glue.

I was working for a year in a cedar planked canoe shop, using brass tacks. White waterproof glued (Can't remember the brand) was used when needed. They said: ''Glue must be WATERPROOF''.

Last but not least.... Any construction glue (in cartriges) good for this purpose? Like polyurethane?

[GARRBOSR]

I found this article pretty helpfull

http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/r...cles_737.shtml

[sailcanoefan]

Thanks a lot GARRBOSR, this article is very helpful. There is good hope for TITEBOND lll Ultimate, and PL Premium Construction Adhesive as well witch is very easy to find in a ll hardware stores. I will also consider liquid polyurethane (Gorilla - Elmer's and others).

Again, Thank you very much

[Lewisboater]

If you look at the thread "Peerosail build"...I am using PL Premium which is curing as I type. It is good and strong...and if the squeeze out is filleted in with a finger works like a sealant too. I smear it on the end grain of the ply edges to seal it and on the endgrain of the stem bottom too...as a "just in case" insurance policy. Not that I don't like or use Epoxy...sometimes it is just easier to gun something together than stir up a batch of epoxy and filler.

[GARRBOSR]

note that these glues all work better under pressure or clamped, Im from the construction world 35+ years ( currently getting out of doge and going into boat restoration full time) so the Pl Urethane is the best if you really want to never take it apart :>) which in a kitchen or bath rehab may not always be the rite choice lol pluss u do not want to get it on you , hate it when that happens, I think on the edge of ply a coat of the titebond would be as good and I always carry a flux brush ( rather a jug full, can never have to many)for that reason, less messy but thats just a personal choice. and a yessir to Steve, sometimes you just need a gun,,and for useing the runoff where ever for extra seal where ever you need to wipe it, edge and any end grains as that's where cancer almost always starts

[Dale Genther]

If I had to have just one glue it would be epoxy. So 90% of the time that it what I grab whenever I'm doing something with wood, if it is boat related or not.

[RodB]

First off... forget Gorilla Glue around boats... many folks on this forum have had failures with Gorrilla glue... and commented on this subject and have removed any Gorilla glue from their shop... including me. It sucks. Personally, I'll never use it again on anything.

Epoxy and Resourcinol are unbeatable if the joint is later saturated with water... with Resourcinol the best with almost no failures. Epoxy is a great performer but has failed in some situations where the wood involved is saturated with water. (See The Pardey book (Adhesive appendix) for a biased view of all this but some good information and examples).

Epoxy is the standard glue to use when gluing in boats... Resourcinol is great but requires very good fitting joints and lots of pressure and the right temp, etc. Once you use epoxy it is like riding a bike... it becomes second nature and easy to use. As you use it, you become much more adept at mixing and applying cleanly and neatly and quickly. If you use a product continually over time you learn its quirks and it's surefire performance characteristics.

I think many here monitor the use of other adhesives such as polyurethane glues like PL Premium etc and do use them...but epoxy is the standard adhesive for a quality bond in the most varied situations and it easily makes joint bond strength stronger than the surrounding wood every time. Epoxies like System Three General Purpose Resin maintain a high performance level in all kinds of conditions from cold and damp to hot and muggy or dry... With three hardeners, its easy to tweak your mix to give you exactly the amount of gel time you need to accomplish a job.

Buy a box of Nitrile (lightly powered) gloves along with a good dust mask... and your plenty safe (with a little common sense thrown in). Read the epoxy manuals like "The System Three Epoxy Manual" and "The Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction".


You cannot go wrong with any of the most common products used in boatbuilding. ... West, System Three, MAS, and Raka.

Good luck,

RodB

[CundysHarbor]

When the seas are big and the going is tough, I never regret having used epoxy for my boats. Certainly, one must use a good organic vapor respirator and Nitrile gloves when working with epoxy.
Dave

[Thorne]

Many many previous threads on this topic here, well worth searching the forum. Different glues are better for different applications - you need to be extremely specific when asking questions about adhesives. For thin strips glued together and then covered with fiberglass and epoxy, white glue or similar glues are fine. For massive planks or beams you'll want Epoxy and Resourcinol. For quick and dirty above the waterline with lots of filling properties, PL Premium is usually fine.

So when you say "Build my 19' sailboat" - what materials, plans, uses, budget, etc???? Otherwise might as well ask "how long is a piece of string", or "Do blondes or brunettes make better wives".

[DLC]

Has anybody tried spreding pl premium with a notched trowl for bonding plywood panels together?

[mcdenny]

I would think it would start to skin over before you could get the spreading, trawling, etc done and the pieces clamped together. Epoxy with slow hardener would be far and away the best choice for laminating plywood.

PL Premium is great for bonding strips together. Being able to apply it with a caulking gun is a big benefit.

[DLC]

Thats to bad, epoxy is to expensive.

[Lewisboater]

Thats to bad, epoxy is to expensive.

pound for pound...PL is more expensive than Epoxy at the gallon + level.

[sailcanoefan]

Wow, now it's clear!!!! Depending of typical application and where it is intended, glue type varies. For frames, PL Premium or Epoxy should be used, while laminating will accept Titebond lll Ultimate, or Epoxy.

I will stay away from Gorilla Glue (but does a pretty work on fingers!!!)

Thank you very much folks for informations, I appreciate.

[Bob Smalser]

... laminating will accept Titebond lll...

A bad choice. If for whatever reason it breaks or delams, nothing useful sticks to cured Titebond, and attempts at repair will fail. Use epoxy, UF Resin or URAC 185 urea formaldehyde resin laminating glue instead. All of which sand easier anyway. All also have longer open times than Titebond, which likes to set up early in warm weather, as does PL Premium.

Nor would I write off liquid polyurethanes based on one guy's inability to make them work. An entire 70+ foot schooner is being built with frames lammed with it in B&R. It has it's niche when your wood is too wet for resorcinol or epoxy. And I've never had any trouble with poly's at all when used in laminations. Plus if you catch it at the right stage of cure, cleanup in the planer is fast, easy and gentle on your knives. Franklin also makes a liquid poly:



http://www.cpadhesives.com/woodworking-adhesives

http://www.nelsonpaint.com/urac-185.html

[sailcanoefan]

Thank you Bob for tips and hints. I appreciate. Asking skill people is wise. This will help me to work without bad and costly errors. Gee....imagine builing a boat with the wrong glue!!!!!

Thanks again.

[DLC]

pound for pound...PL is more expensive than Epoxy at the gallon + level.

I diden't realise this I will have to check around for pricing.
Thanks

[Bob Smalser]

Gee....imagine builing a boat with the wrong glue...

Summer will be here before you get that boat done. Ending up on a warm day in the middle of a lamination with glue that's skinning over before you get it in the clamps wastes a lot of time and materials.

[sailcanoefan]

Ok about glue. Now, last question about epoxy:

5 minutes epoxy is definitly to avoid because hardening time is much, much too fast.

What type should I use then?

Same as fiberglassing hull? Marine epoxy?

I realy have no idea here.

What type of epoxy do you folks use to stick parts (frame, planks, laminating, etc....) together.
How long for hardening?

Thank you again

[wizbang 13]

last question, ha ha ha ha ha
just kidding
WEST , system three, MAS, these are the 3 most popular brands.
I use epoxy only. and lots of it.I am not tempted to use anything else.
BUT, I do not build canoes.canoe builders seem to have their own thing going on.

[sailcanoefan]

Canoe? I'm beginning construction of a 19 ft daysailer. I was involved for few years in canoe sailing but now I'm going for the real thing!!!!!

Question was: What kind of epoxy to stick parts together. Or is there a difference between epoxy to fiberglass hull and epoxy to stick parts together?
Thanks

[wizbang 13]

Usually, "resin" for glassing is as it comes outta the can. "Glue" is resin that has been thickened up with powder. I use WEST 403 fillers for most general boat building.
Others use wood dust, colodial silica, talc, balloons, on n on .
Epoxy wants a gap. 403 is gap filling. It is hard to sand. Other fillers are used for finishing (407 and 410).

[Gib Etheridge]

You may find it easiest to use WEST system. The 3 that Wizzers mentioned are excellent products, but the WEST pumps make mixing fool proof (not implying anything). A cautionary note with the pumps though. If you push down too hard on the resin pump, whether it's because you're in a hurry or because the resin is cold and thick, you stand a good chance of breaking the pump. I try to keep the resin at 20 degrees C. and mix small amounts at a time, 1 pump of resin, then 1 pump of hardener. That eliminates the possibility of heat build up in the mixing pot (yogurt container), and by doing alternate pumps I never lose count if I get interupted or caught up in what's on the radio. I've been using WEST for a long time and never had a failure.

[sailcanoefan]

Got that, thank you Wiz and Gib.

[wizbang 13]

you cannot go wrong with west it costs a bit more, but there are good reasons for that

[RodB]

West and MAS are the two most expensive and very good products. Raka is the least expensive and from the feedback on this forum it seems to be a good product line. System Three is less than West and MAS but more than Raka... I tend to use System Three General Purpose Resin as it works for everything and is less than their new Silvertip system products. General Purpose Resin frorm Sys III can be thickened with cabosil and wood flour and talc and ground glass and microspheres to pretty much deal with any type of use for epoxy... and their system is 2:1 (two parts resin to one part hardener which I definitely prefer over 5:1)....and they sell quality pumps that work great with gallon jugs and are plenty accurate. Additionally, Their newer Silvertip products are specifically manufactured for very specific purposes, so that you do not have to mix your own. There is a cost for this convenience. I have used System Three in plus ninty degrees with their slow hardener and it was incredible how much working time you can get if you need to.

I have used West and MAS, but prefer System Three due to less cost, its solid performance, mixture ratio and absolute reliability. At about $85 gallon (resin or hardener) its a solid product that I have used for over 12 years on many many projects.

From your comments about gluing parts together and glassing, you should read The System Three Epoxy Manual free online from them as a pdf file. Epoxy can be thickened with cabosil only as a glue or with equal parts cabosil and wood flour to do filleting work, with 50% cabosil, and 30% talc and 20% wood flour to fill and fair, or variations of same.


Note: it is always a good idea to keep your epoxy at a steady usable temperature for easier use. This can be accomplished in several ways... I have found around 70-75 degrees is a good temp for all round use but in the summer when I leave jugs in the shop for awhile, it gets warmer and viscosity becomes less. Once you learn to work faster with epoxy then you don't mind the shorter working time of fast hardener in situations where you can mix the epoxy, thicken to suit purpose and appy it PDQ. Even in the hot summer here in Dallas, I use Fast hardener many times for shorter jobs where I can apply the epoxy quickly.

Good luck,

RodB

[amateur]

I have used no blush epoxy on the bottom of my first jons boat. I now want to attach protective runner strips on the bottom. I am guessing that the best option is epoxy. Do I need to sand the bottom where the runners will be glued? Thanks, I can see how the boat building becomes a great hobby

[Gib Etheridge]

I have used no blush epoxy on the bottom of my first jons boat. I now want to attach protective runner strips on the bottom. I am guessing that the best option is epoxy. Do I need to sand the bottom where the runners will be glued? Thanks, I can see how the boat building becomes a great hobby

Yes, it will need to be well prepared if you're going to epoxy. You could have started a new thread for this.

[sailcanoefan]

Thanks Rod

[Chris Smith porter maine]

I am not an epoxy pro, so after some issue's I bought this kit from 3m to see what the textures of the various compounds, glue, fairing, should be like it was a big help to get a feel for what you wanted your home mixes to be like. Last gallon I bought has been west and I like it, 3m silvertip was also very nice. was good before that.

http://www.systemthree.com/store/pc/...Kit-48p235.htm