Russian longboat with split lugsail - new pics and video

[Thorne]

I thought I'd put this up in this section of the Forum, in case anyone interested may have missed it in People & Places.

John Middleton owns two Russian-built longboats, both with split lugsails. I got photos of the smaller one in '07 but hadn't seen the larger one until this weekend on the Russian River. Boat is crewed by John Carlson and his boys Owen and Hugh.



A few pics -





Carlsons' firing a salute -

[Gerarddm]

Have never seen or even heard of a split lug before. Cool, thanks for posting.

[Hwyl]

How did it sail,the geometry looks all wrong. I'd have thought the "jib" should be sheeted to the mast.

[Ian McColgin]

Can you tell us more about the tiller?

[skaraborgcraft]

The split lug rig was common in UK waters,good for reaching out to the fishing grounds and reaching back in, not so good for quick tacking.Powerfull rig. That tiller iron looks as though it has a crook to fit around a mizzen mast.

[WX]

Have never seen or even heard of a split lug before. Cool, thanks for posting.

Here's a modern innovation that has proved to be very good.

[James McMullen]

The split lug rig was common in UK waters,good for reaching out to the fishing grounds and reaching back in, not so good for quick tacking.

Ummm. . .I think you mean a dipping lug, not a split lug. From what I understand, the split lug was never particularly common. And the reason why is easy to see if you watch Thorne's video--the top half of the forward part of the split sail is doing no favors at all to the flow over the rest of the upper half. It is like a jib that is dreadfully over sheeted and pinchy at the top. I betcha a hundred dollars that if he switched over to a regular lug that his longboat would be both faster and more weatherly, even with that baggy, saggy cotton canvas sailcloth.

[Thorne]

The sails are linen, and I'm sure the rig is used for historical accuracy, not performance sailing ;0 )

Here's another video of her sailing up the Russian River. Quality isn't great but it may help those interested in seeing the rig under different points of sail.

http://www.facebook.com/v/10150897126668646

Don't know anything about the tiller other than that it is some kind of iron or bronze, but it sure looks like it was built to work around a mizzen mast. More pics from my Facebook album -

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...9763645&type=3

[skaraborgcraft]

Ummm. . .I think you mean a dipping lug, not a split lug. From what I understand, the split lug was never particularly common. And the reason why is easy to see if you watch Thorne's video--the top half of the forward part of the split sail is doing no favors at all to the flow over the rest of the upper half. It is like a jib that is dreadfully over sheeted and pinchy at the top. I betcha a hundred dollars that if he switched over to a regular lug that his longboat would be both faster and more weatherly, even with that baggy, saggy cotton canvas sailcloth.

You will find all sorts of lug rig were used in British waters. Beer (the place) beach boats used to use the split rig. Im not saying its a good rig or worse than others,just that at a time in history the beach fisherman were using this rig,and therefore it was in "common" use. Cheers

[tomas6451]

Hi all
The owner of these boats is also VP of our non profit, Center for Living History here in Monterey. We are always looking for crew and anyone else who is interested in going sailing and participating in various period reenactments. We are also planning a tall ship project and have info on that on our website at www.cyane.org we also have a facebook page under Center for Living History. I'll try to post a few links later and more on our project.

[Peerie Maa]

You will find all sorts of lug rig were used in British waters. Beer (the place) beach boats used to use the split rig. Im not saying its a good rig or worse than others,just that at a time in history the beach fisherman were using this rig,and therefore it was in "common" use. Cheers

When did they try that?
I had not heard of working boats using the rig, although I find that Warrington Smythe states that Norfolk herring drifters adopted the rig in order to reduce the number of skilled hands needed. I have looked in March to find no mention so I am puzzled.

[James McMullen]

Hey yeah. All of the Beer Luggers I know about today use a dipping lug fores'l. When did they use split lugs?

The current Beer Luggers are certainly very much to my liking.

[Thorne]

Screenshot of a pdf of a report from an 1882 regatta in Syndey where some of the Russian boats carried split lugsails -
http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...pg=5506,338445


Some info on the interweb-thingie implies that it may have been created by a frustrated officer trying to deal with a green crew, but ya never know...
http://www.messingaboutinboats.com/a...ptember00.html

The Warrington-Smythe quote -
http://www.thecheappages.com/smyth/mast_n_sail_06.html

This US 1880's research vessel carried a dinghy with a split lugsail -
http://www.nefsc.noaa.gov/history/sh...lbatross1.html

Folkard calls it an old-fashioned rig in his 1906 treatise -
http://books.google.com/books?id=1CH...20sail&f=false

the Sydney Mail in 1882 reported on a rowing and sailing competition where the Russians did well, and describe their pinnaces using split lugsails -
http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...pg=5506,338445

[James McMullen]

Thank you for those, Thorne. It is a curious thing, no? But then variety is the spice of life!

[Peerie Maa]

Dont take the Redwing as a precedent. Class rules were that the hulls were to be one design, and wind powered, by you could harness the wind anyway you wanted.

The Class Rules have always restricted the sail area to 200 sq ft, but owners are free to experiment with sail design. This has led over the years to many unusual innovations, perhaps the strangest being the propeller rig the first Lord Brabazon put on his old Redwing (No. 20 “Kestrel”) in 1934. Owners of the class have continued to experiment in recent years, the most dramatic being the “swing rig” developed by John Cleave in the 1980s. The current very high aspect rig (with multitudinous controls) was developed by Vernon Stratton in the 1980s and is currently the most successful rig.

[Hwyl]

I thiink we ought to differentiate the types. Some appear to have the tack of the sail attached to the stem, like Thorne's example, and some to an extension of the boom, only the latter makes sense to me. I won't venture into naming the various types.

[Thorne]

Interesting, isn't it? I **think** the rig was taken from a dipping lugsail, which would explain the tack hooked to the stem, right? It seems a logical way to attach the tack on a lugsail that extends that close to the stem to me, but I have very little experience with lugsails of any flavour.

[Peerie Maa]

I thiink we ought to differentiate the types. Some appear to have the tack of the sail attached to the stem, like Thorne's example, and some to an extension of the boom, only the latter makes sense to me. I won't venture into naming the various types.

That one is the Experimental Bembridge Redwing yes? With the emphasis on experiment

Interesting, isn't it? I **think** the rig was taken from a dipping lugsail, which would explain the tack hooked to the stem, right? It seems a logical way to attach the tack on a lugsail that extends that close to the stem to me, but I have very little experience with lugsails of any flavour.

I believe that this is right, although why they did not simply go for the standing lug and jib option surpasseth all understanding. The only benefit mentioned is the saving on one halyard block and one piece of rope.

[Thorne]

this photo might help a bit with rigging details. The spar is held onto the mast with a large metal hook.

[tomas6451]

Some great pics!

[Thorne]

Well, we were all wrong about the tiller. Here's the real thing from the owner John Middleton via email:

"I noticed a question about the tiller; the boat has two iron tillers, exactly the same as found on 17th century yawls, one straight with an "l" shaped turn and pommel, and one with the curious crook in it as shown in the photos. The straight one is for sailing, when the ensign is shifted from the stern flag mast to the leach of the main sail, (obviously you can tell from the photos that this was not done; neither were the tillers shifted nor the stern ensign staff taken in when the sail was raised. A sad comment on the skipper's adherence to naval regulations) and the crooked one is used while under oars, and designed to accommodate the coxswain's thigh when he is sitting on the starboard aft corner seat, or bend around the off-centre ensign staff if the coxswain is forward of the back-board. The bend in the tiller has nothing to do with a mizzen mast, which was never carried on the two,four, or six oared yawls in the Russian Navy."

[tomas6451]

I posted a video of our longboat being used in a reenactment
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tE5EFXL4BLE

[Thorne]

Very nice video, and a wonderful reenactment event.