Best glue for cedar strips?

[kmerr98277]

I have heard all sorts of things about all sorts of glue. Gillpatrick's book on canow building says to use white elmers. How about titebond II? Just need something that will hold up.

[Tim Marchetti]

regular titebond works fine. titebondIII gives you a little more time to move things around if you're working alone. please show us what you're building

[White River]

I use elmers carpenter's glue. yellow in color. I have had no issues with either of the canoes I have built. Dont know much about titebond II.

[Gib Etheridge]

White glue will soften up if it gets wet. TII will work, but TIII has a longer working time and is stronger. Use a flux brush to spread it on the edges.

[Rich Jones]

Some say that the glue doesn't really matter since the epoxy sheathing is what really holds the boat together and gives it the strength. That said, I'd still use the best glue I could find. Any of the titebonds will do. Straight white elmers is a tad light.

[Todd Bradshaw]

I've always used Weldwood Plastic Resin Glue (urea formaldehyde, now distributed by Dap).
http://www.amazon.com/00203-Weldwood...4535154&sr=8-1
It's a tan powder that you mix with water until it's about like pancake batter. When dry, it's hard, so it doesn't gum up sandpaper if your sander runs at high speed, the color matches the wood pretty well, it fills gaps nicely, and it's cheap. With stapled construction, we would clamp half a dozen strips together with a few spring clamps with their wide flat sides together and apply glue to the edges of the whole batch at once with a small roller. Stapleless construction takes a lot longer, so you would likely be dealing with one strip at a time, but it's still one of the best glues to use and I personally can't see any reason I would ever use anything else.

The strength or water resistance of the glue really doesn't matter much. If you get water into the core of a stripper you have a serious problem. This glue vs. that glue isn't going to save your bacon, or be one of the more serious issues that will confront you. Even glue strength isn't a very big deal. Any decent wood glue will generally exceed the grain strength of 1/4" thick cedar and when strippers break it's far more likely to be along a weak line in the grain than at a strip-to-strip glue joint.

[Lazy Jack]

According to a DAP representative I phoned last year after a bum purchase, they actually had stopped making that product some time ago which means it is all expired. Supposidly it has a six month shelf life. I bought some haplessly from a local hardware store that was over two years old and the stuff mixed like curdled slime in egg-white - not the creamy brown stuff I'd seen in the past. Check the label, the cryptic 5 digit code on the little white sticker on the tub is the date of manufacture, the first two numbers the year, the last three numbers the day of that year - but according to that representative, its all expired no matter where you get it.

[Canoez]

We've used Titebond I, II and a variety of "carpenter's glues" including Elmers. You've got to be careful about your temperatures when applying and storing. If it gets too cold, it can curdle and chalk up, rendering the glue useless. Also, if you let the glue freeze while curing, it can turn bright frost white. Not an attractive look. On my next cedar-strip build I'm going to take Todd's advice and try the Weldwood plastic resin glue.

As other's have mentioned here, waterproof glue is unnecessary and more difficult to clean squeeze-off from the surface of the boat during the build (to save time scraping, fairing and sanding later...) Using epoxy is totally over-kill and adding a layer of difficulty to the build that is unnecessary as well. The whole thing will be encapsulated in epoxy and fiberglass, so if you have moisture getting through to your core, you have much bigger problems.

[Todd Bradshaw]

We used the same one-gallon can of Weldwood for about five years and never had any problems, but if you do buy some, it certainly wouldn't be a bad idea to test it on scrap first. By the next day, it should be brown, hard and rather brittle (which is why it sands so well). If not, request a refund.

[gstanfield]

I used titebond III and II on my gilpatrick puddle duck (thread is here on this forum) The stuff is dang strong!

[MoMan]

I found on the Weldwood that following the mixing directions made a big difference for me. At first, I simply mixed the whole powder quantity with the water quantity. I always got little lumps, which clogged up my syringe glue applicator. Eventually, I would mix up half of the powder, thoroughly stir, then add the remaining powder. Problem solved and no more lumps.

[Y Bar Ranch]

PL premium has been working for me. Pretty much impervious to temperatures hot or cold, which is a good thing up here in PA.

[Bob Smalser]

If you aren't gonna use epoxy, then why not use something that:

1) Epoxy sticks to...and...2) is easy to sand?

Like powdered urea formaldehyde resin glue (identical to Weldwood and DAP) @5lbs for a whopping $28.00:


http://www.cpadhesives.com/woodworki...-25-pound-pail

Titebond and other aliphatic glues don't stick to epoxy and sand like Tupperware. The logic behind using them for in this application escapes me entirely.

[wizbang 13]

Title of Thread.
Are you looking for the best or the cheapest?
All this to save twenty dollars on a canoe???

[Canoez]

If you aren't gonna use epoxy, then why not use something that:

1) Epoxy sticks to...and...2) is easy to sand?

Like powdered urea formaldehyde resin glue (identical to Weldwood and DAP) @5lbs for a whopping $28.00:


http://www.cpadhesives.com/woodworki...-25-pound-pail

Titebond and other aliphatic glues don't stick to epoxy and sand like Tupperware. The logic behind using them for in this application escapes me entirely.

Well, I believe we've covered this one before.

The glue line is miniscule in cedar strip construction and when the boat has been faired with a plane, sanding isn't an issue. I find I'd rather have a slightly "tupperware" like glue when it's being sheared off by a sharp plane. Brittle adhesives can chip out during the fairing process - sometimes taking out bits of the strips.

The fact that the epoxy isn't adhering to a glue line that's probably on the order of thousandths of an inch versus the 3/4" width of the strip really doesn't have a significant impact on the shear bonding of the fiberglass and epoxy to the wood. If this was truly an issue, you'd see delamination from severe impact radiating up the glue lines between the strips which is something that you don't tend to see in these kind of failures. The structure of the boat is truly in the epoxy/fiberglass matrix skins and the wood is the core that separates the skins to yield a stress-skin composite construction.

[Bob Smalser]

Well, I believe we've covered this one before.

Yup.

Nothing useful sticks to cured Titebond, including more Titebond, which makes repairing serious collision or any other damage in one of your Titebond strippers twice as difficult as it should be.

http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/b.../glueTest1.asp

I think it's an extremely bad choice, and accordingly, I'll never recommend anyone buy a stripper glued with Titebond.

[Gib Etheridge]

Quote..."Well, I believe we've covered this one before.

The glue line is miniscule in cedar strip construction and when the boat has been faired with a plane, sanding isn't an issue. I find I'd rather have a slightly "tupperware" like glue when it's being sheared off by a sharp plane. Brittle adhesives can chip out during the fairing process - sometimes taking out bits of the strips.

The fact that the epoxy isn't adhering to a glue line that's probably on the order of thousandths of an inch versus the 3/4" width of the strip really doesn't have a significant impact on the shear bonding of the fiberglass and epoxy to the wood. If this was truly an issue, you'd see delamination from severe impact radiating up the glue lines between the strips which is something that you don't tend to see in these kind of failures. The structure of the boat is truly in the epoxy/fiberglass matrix skins and the wood is the core that separates the skins to yield a stress-skin composite construction."

That's experience talking, and I'll second that. I destroyed a sample of TIII glued strip/glass composite using a clamp and a vice and there was NO fracturing along the glue lines.

I try to clean off squeeze out with a wet rag and/or a putty knife whenever and wherever I can, but when I can't I use a belt sander with 80 grit. The TIII doesn't gum up the belt. When I use the half sheet orbital sander or the sanding board or any sander at all on epoxy I have to clean the paper repeatedly, often with a wire brush. That's because it sands like tupperware.

TIII is less expensive, non toxic, non allergenic, water cleanup, faster curing, easier to sand, waterproof and permanent. There is no reason at all not to use TIII for glueing strips.

It doesn't matter one bit what glue was used when repairing a strip built hull, it will still be difficult.

[Todd Bradshaw]

As I said before, strippers almost never break along glue lines using any decent wood glue, they break along grain lines in the strips, either from impact or from rookies who think they'll get cute and out-think the designer by making the inside glass too light. They think they're saving weight, but in reality they're usually giving away large amounts of the hull's strength. The epoxy isn't bonding to the glue lines because they are tiny enough that they aren't a factor. It's bonding to the wood. The glue that will work best for you is the glue that fairs easiest and cleanest with whatever tool you use. Tightbond no doubt will plane better than Weldwood because it's softer. I don't use belt sanders on strippers because they're flat and the boats aren't, but if you use big disk sanders like I was taught by guys who built strippers in a production setting, glues like tightbond (and even epoxy) will smear from the heat generated. This both plugs up expensive, resin-backed disks quickly and also gets smeared into the wood on the face of the strips. When that happens, you can get spots where the epoxy saturation and color isn't even when you do your glassing. Additionally, the idea with a disk is smooth passes that take it down evenly. Hovering over an area to remove smeared soft glue tends to make for a lumpy fairing job. It's all a matter of matching your glue to your tools. They can all work just fine, but some will work better for certain fairing methods than others. Once you're down to a fair, clean surface with tight glue lines and you apply the glass the hull won't know the difference.

[Canoez]

As I said before, strippers almost never break along glue lines using any decent wood glue, they break along grain lines in the strips, either from impact or from rookies who think they'll get cute and out-think the designer by making the inside glass too light. They think they're saving weight, but in reality they're usually giving away large amounts of the hull's strength. The epoxy isn't bonding to the glue lines because they are tiny enough that they aren't a factor. It's bonding to the wood. The glue that will work best for you is the glue that fairs easiest and cleanest with whatever tool you use. Tightbond no doubt will plane better than Weldwood because it's softer. I don't use belt sanders on strippers because they're flat and the boats aren't, but if you use big disk sanders like I was taught by guys who built strippers in a production setting, glues like tightbond (and even epoxy) will smear from the heat generated. This both plugs up expensive, resin-backed disks quickly and also gets smeared into the wood on the face of the strips. When that happens, you can get spots where the epoxy saturation and color isn't even when you do your glassing. Additionally, the idea with a disk is smooth passes that take it down evenly. Hovering over an area to remove smeared soft glue tends to make for a lumpy fairing job. It's all a matter of matching your glue to your tools. They can all work just fine, but some will work better for certain fairing methods than others. Once you're down to a fair, clean surface with tight glue lines and you apply the glass the hull won't know the difference.

The methods that I teach have been learned from teaching beginners to build canoes. One of the things that I have discovered is that very few students have the skills necessary to get a fair hull even with instruction involving demonstration. Typical issues include students spending too long in one space, digging with an edge or even sanding enthusiastically through the hull. The way we work to fair a hull is block planes and spokeshaves, then longboards with coarse grit and orbital sanders with a finer grit (usually 80) to get out visible scratches. It is a surprisingly quick process. Usually accomplished in a single class.

The only concerns I have about working with the Weldwood - or any other Urea Formaldehyde formulation is the health effects (MSDS here for Weldwood) as I'm required to supply this documentation to the school officials for all materials that the students work with. I am well aware that this is a widely used product in many, many items and that the amount of exposure that students would experience is minimal with proper handling and safety equipment. I figure with the

[Redeye]

If you aren't gonna use epoxy, then why not use something that:

1) Epoxy sticks to...and...2) is easy to sand?

Like powdered urea formaldehyde resin glue (identical to Weldwood and DAP) @5lbs for a whopping $28.00:


http://www.cpadhesives.com/woodworki...-25-pound-pail

Titebond and other aliphatic glues don't stick to epoxy and sand like Tupperware. The logic behind using them for in this application escapes me entirely.

What's the difference between this and resorcinol?

[Canoez]

What's the difference between this and resorcinol?

Cost, color, ease of use (Resorcinol is a 2-part liquid) and shelf life, IIRC. Around us, availability is by order only at local stores.

[Redeye]

Cost, color, ease of use (Resorcinol is a 2-part liquid) and shelf life, IIRC. Around us, availability is by order only at local stores.

So the bond strength, waterproofness, durability, thermal resistance is the same?

[Canoez]

Identical in terms of shear, similar waterproof and durability specs, but I don't know about thermal resistance. For boat-building, I'm sure it's more than adequate.

TDS sheets for Weldwood's products here and here.

[TXdoug]

Titebond II works great for me. I did a few accidental test breaks and the glue always held.

Here is a tip I stole from a buddy. Strip guide for the glue bottle.





sands just fine

[Canoez]

That's a very good idea, Doug!

We like these bottles for applying glue:



They're available from McMaster-Carr and the nozzle opening is just the right size to apply a bead of glue without too much squeeze out.

[Lazy Jack]

According to a DAP representative I phoned last year after a bum purchase, they actually had stopped making that product some time ago which means it is all expired. Supposidly it has a six month shelf life. I bought some haplessly from a local hardware store that was over two years old and the stuff mixed like curdled slime in egg-white - not the creamy brown stuff I'd seen in the past. Check the label, the cryptic 5 digit code on the little white sticker on the tub is the date of manufacture, the first two numbers the year, the last three numbers the day of that year - but according to that representative, its all expired no matter where you get it.

Ahem - er... ..um

So, an update on that bit of misinformation...

Given the abundance of Dap Plastic Resin Glue still distributed by places such as Jamestown Distributors, Amazon, etc, I thought I ought to check myself regarding actual discontinuance of that product

So, again I phoned DAP product information and spoke with a live human. According to this representative, although they did discontinue the resourcinol some time ago, they have never stopped producing the plastic resin urea formaldehyde stuff.

He advised the in-store shelf life is a year, and the date code is a six digit number, the first digit is a 1, 5, or 8 and codes the site of manufacture, the second two digits is the year (10 would be 2010) and the last three digits the calendar day of that year. He recommended NOT purchasing a tub that is close to its expiration date.

He then scanned his computer to determine where in my location it had been recently shipped but came up with nothing in VT or NH within the last two months (didn't know why) but the bottom line is, they still do make the stuff and I apologize for spreading the mis-information I obtained a year ago.

[Phil Westendorf]

Titebond II is as good as you need for Western Red Cedar. Low cost (about $ 20/ gal), readily available (Home Depot, Lowes, etc), and you can add multiple strips after 75-90 mins. Just let the glue dry after applying the strip, don't wipe up glue with a wet cloth. You can scrape off the partially dried excess glue with a kniife, scraper, etc. For the cost it's hard to beat and works just fine.

[kmerr98277]

Will wiping the glue after each strip cause problems?

[Bill Mercer]

What about clamping pressure? As I understand, Weldwood is about like Gorilla-type glues in requiring very good joints and lots of clamping to have reasonable strength, and I've had experience with how easy it is to snap apart a bad Gorilla glue joint. Nailless strip construction doesn't sound like something where you could get a lot of clamping pressure between strips.

Yup.

Nothing useful sticks to cured Titebond, including more Titebond, which makes repairing serious collision or any other damage in one of your Titebond strippers twice as difficult as it should be.

http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/b.../glueTest1.asp

I think it's an extremely bad choice, and accordingly, I'll never recommend anyone buy a stripper glued with Titebond.

[Todd Bradshaw]

All the glue has to do is to keep the strips together long enough to get the glass skins on. Like it or not, wooden boat or not, the wood in a stripper is basically just the core layer of a cored composite construction. It will help provide some stiffness, but its main job is to separate the load-bearing skins - which are doing the vast majority of the work. This is why you can build the same type of boat with a balsa core or a foam core, alter the skin scantlings a bit and end up with similar strength. By the time you get the whole sandwich assembled, the glue that was used to glue the core strips together is pretty much meaningless, so use one that works with whatever method of stripping and fairing you plan on and you'll be just fine.

Have you ever seen a sheet of end-grain balsa coring? It's been used in composite boats and canoes for forty years or more. It's a bunch of little squares of balsa wood stuck to a layer of mesh and the individual squares aren't even glued together, edge to edge. This allows the sheet to conform to the various hull shapes and curves. With proper construction and attention to sealing any perforations for fittings, it makes a perfectly good core. If you could figure out how to build a stripper core without glue to hold the strips in place, it would also work just fine.

[Tim Marchetti]

What Todd said