1000 yds, open rifle, club equipment - but pretty chuffed

[Larks]

First time that I've shot on a target range in at least 20 years, maybe a few more, certainly the first time I've fired a rifle since needing glasses (far sighted), so didn't know if I'd be able to see through a rifle sight...

Also first time I've ever used a target rifle with all the fancy peep sights, slings, jacket, glove etc....all of it borrowed, club rifle and someones old discarded jacket, borrowed sling and glove. It all felt a bit weird, constricted and uncomfortable

But....... 47 out of a possible 55 over 1000 yards with variable winds including 4 bull's, (2 x 5 pointers and 2 x 5.1 "V's" or perfect bulls or whatever they are called.....I think they are X bulls with scoped rifle class and worth 6.1 but V bulls worth 5.1 with the open sights.....does that sound right?)

So yeah, I'm bloody well braggin' about it!! Wouldn't you?

[PeterSibley]

Very good indeed Greg! I haven't been on a range in 45 years but shot at school .

Well done !

[purri]

Good stuff! BTW there is a generic class shot with irons (with aperture penalty) known as MRC. They include a walk/run down over 300 to 100 metres and include a "mad minute" component. Certainly character building and SMLEs usually top the results.

[PeterSibley]

Yeah, I remember that one from boyhood, my accuracy on the last mound used to be horrible !

[Phillip Allen]

Very good, I'd say... and very gratifying... all ya need is to show up at the next chance and do it again... take the bad with the good and bear down

it even encourages me

[Nicholas Scheuer]

Co ngrats. However, writing to that degree of detail about your range experience, I'd ecpect you'd mention what sort of rifle you used.

[Phillip Allen]

.22 short

[Phillip Allen]

fer gosh sakes... they're Aussie... some sort of .303... probably loaded with stick cordite

[Larks]

Co ngrats. However, writing to that degree of detail about your range experience, I'd ecpect you'd mention what sort of rifle you used.

I've got no idea what make the rifle was, the gauge was 308 and we were shooting F class and I was kind of distracted with other things (including wondering if I could still shoot and even hit the target). The style of shooting was all very new to me, to the point that I had no idea why they'd handed me what looked like a straight jacket until the guy who loaned me his sling showed me how to set it up........(so that it really was pretty much a straight jacket. It made it all a whole lot easier than simply wresting on a propped arm.

I'm thinking of going back on Thursday and will be using the same weapon again so will try and be a little more observant.

[McMike]

fer gosh sakes... they're Aussie... some sort of .303... probably loaded with stick cordite

LOL

[Mrleft8]

Ha! You think that's good!? I just got a squirrel @ 100yds.+ with a 60 y/o Remington .22LR fitted with iron Lyman peep sights.... Before my first cup of coffee!

[bobbys]

Pretty darn good.

While hunting my son said there was a elk 1000 yards away on a mountain.

I could not even see the mountain!

[Bob Smalser]

Sounds like you have a future as a competitor if you want to pursue it.

In a previous life I both shot for and coached service teams in several National, Interservice and All-Army Service Rifle Championships. What we look for in a long-range shooter is the ability to hold elevation, largely because it's easier to teach a shooter how to read mirage for wind changes...



...than it is to break a perfectly-clean shot with attendant follow-through. Plus in a team match, it's the coach who calls all the windage, not the shooter. Hence the best practice for long-range is shooting projectiles that are slow to leave the barrel like from an air rifle or muzzle-loader, as in those disciplines perfect follow-through is a must. Hi-power shooting isn't the best practice because the bullet leaves the bore so fast you can be really sloppy on follow-through and still hit the 10-ring inside of the typical 100 and 200-yard practice ranges. Sloppiness that loses matches at 800 thru a thousand.

Plus do this enough and you'll find yourself shooting better with aperture sights than with scopes, which really only offer an advantage in low-light. The tradeoffs with scopes is the large objective bell requires they sit too high above the bore to eliminate parallax problems, and that plus that they are slightly less precise in eye-objective alignment than irons tends to eliminate the advantage of magnification. Most casual shooters pooh-pooh this, but none of them have the competitor's requirement to break eighty or a hundred perfect shots in a row, either.



And even taking a casual approach to long-range shooting, you ought to obtain a scorebook and use it, recording calls, plots and weather conditions for every shot. There is no substitute to quicker understanding of what you are about than to be able to review what worked and what didn't shot by shot.

[purri]

308= 7.62 nato

[Larks]

Sounds like you have a future as a competitor if you want to pursue it.

In a previous life I both shot for and coached service teams in several National, Interservice and All-Army Service Rifle Championships. What we look for in a long-range shooter is the ability to hold elevation, largely because it's easier to teach a shooter how to read mirage for wind changes...



...than it is to break a perfectly-clean shot with attendant follow-through. Plus in a team match, it's the coach who calls all the windage, not the shooter. Hence the best practice for long-range is shooting projectiles that are slow to leave the barrel like from an air rifle or muzzle-loader, as in those disciplines perfect follow-through is a must. Hi-power shooting isn't the best practice because the bullet leaves the bore so fast you can be really sloppy on follow-through and still hit the 10-ring inside of the typical 100 and 200-yard practice ranges.

Plus do this enough and you'll find yourself shooting better with aperture sights than with scopes, which really only offer an advantage in low-light. The tradeoffs with scopes is the large objective bell requires they sit too high above the bore to eliminate parallax problems, and that plus that they are slightly less precise in eye-objective alignment than irons tends to eliminate the advantage of magnification. Most casual shooters pooh-pooh this, but none of them have the competitor's requirement to break eighty or a hundred perfect shots in a row, either.


And even taking a casual approach to long-range shooting, you ought to obtain a scorebook and use it, recording calls, plots and weather conditions for every shot. There is no substitute to quicker understanding of what you are about than to be able to review what worked and what didn't shot by shot.

Thanks Bob. What do you mean by the ability to hold elevation?

And thankyou for the advice, I do plan on going back and getting more involved. I used to be quite interested in shooting and had quite a collection of hunting rifles but never got into actual competition shooting, other than regimental comp's years ago. Once the whole gun control thing happened here I moved on to other things.

But the seed has been re-sown and I'll certainly take your advice about keeping a record of my shoots. My neighbour was responsible for taking me along yesterday, he has just taken the sport up but is using a scope because he simply can't see the target otherwise. He had his Ipad with him and had an application that allowed him to do just what you say, plot each shot, record the calls, windage etc and it has some annalytical functions that I didn't get a chance to look at.

He's also suggesting that we look at getting air rifles for practice, we both live on a couple of acres with bush behind us so we could set up a quite safe home range if we wanted to.

[Larks]

Ha! You think that's good!? I just got a squirrel @ 100yds.+ with a 60 y/o Remington .22LR fitted with iron Lyman peep sights.... Before my first cup of coffee!

Not bad, try 1000 yards. At that distance the bullseye is 5" accross, so about the size of your squirrel???

[Mrleft8]

Squirrels are a little bigger..... But they're a lot faster!

[Shang]

fer gosh sakes... they're Aussie... some sort of .303... probably loaded with stick cordite

Yep, probably with the bayonet still attached.

I was a kid, working at a military surplus store when the post-war .303's came into the U.S. I spent most of my boss's afternoon, but only a few dollars of my own money, picking out the nicest cherry-condition of the lot...a .303--never fired, never even chambered.

Later I swapped it for a McIntosh audio amplifier.

Nice work, Larks.

[Bob Smalser]

What do you mean by the ability to hold elevation?

Meaning that all your shots string out on roughly a horizontal line. That your hold for elevation is consistent from shot to shot.

Another helpful session is to score for another shooter, watching his bullet vapor trails thru a 20 to 25-power spotting scope as they rise, bend with the wind and spindrift, and come down onto the target. After some practice, you can literally score his shots on the target without the pit crew pulling and marking the shot. It saves a lot of time allowing your shooter to make adjustments and set up for his next shot, and it teaches you exterior ballistics like no book ever will. You can see this best by focusing the scope not on the target, but on a point mid-way between the firing line and the target. The same focusing solution also works best for reading mirage.

Once you get a consistent hold on the rifle and a consistent set of spotwelds (eye-aperture relationship based on the consistency of mounting the rifle), you'll develop zeros for each range you're shooting at. All serious aperture sights allow unscrewing and slipping the knobs to the indexing on the sight matches your range based on your personal variables. You'll do much better with your own rifle. Then you want to mark the sights so you won't get confused in the middle of a string and move them in the opposite direction from what you intended:



You can also dramatically increase your rifle's performance by handloading using different bullet weights and seating depths for different ranges and courses of fire. But check first, as in this country (and in Palma and some other international matches) the serious Service Rifle matches issue government ammunition to all shooters, and we reload to closely match what will be issued.

Our 800 to 1000yd target has a 44" black aiming bullseye and our 500 to 600yd target has a 36" bullseye.

[Larks]

Thanks Bob, I do have a basic 25x - 75x spotting scope that I bought for watching shipping in Darwin a couple of years back, I didn't think to take it yesterday but I certainly will next time for watching shots as you suggest. The club did provide one on a low mount for checking my shots but that seemed to be a much more impressive bit of kit than my ebay bought one.

I used to reload my own 303 and 30-30 ammo many years ago but I never really got into much science about it, however the guy who was coaching me yesterday (required for any "visitor" or unlicensed shooter) was saying that most of the club members do load their own ammo. He also builds weapons and I now wonder if the rifle that I was firing may have been one of his builds. I understand there are a few guys in the club that have built ther own weapons up from older Omark weapons, apparently the actions are very good and they build a new weapon up around that. I plan on finding out more on that concept as there are Omark 308's available from about $300 - $400 and I assume, depending on their age and how many rounds have been through them, I could possibly have a bit of fun using one as-is until I could afford to rebuild it????

[Bob Smalser]

Nothing wrong with an Omark. But all I've seen have been set up for prone, single-shot only. If the course of fire you plan to compete in has rapid-fire stages, you'll need bolt gun with some flavor of magazine, plus a clip slot for rapid reloading. Plus a prone-only stock is shaped differently from an across-the-course stock also used for sitting and kneeling.

So it all depends on what you intend to shoot.

Same with ammo. As all of these are shooting jacketed bullets, with the long-range rifles also shooting hot loads, barrel life is around 5000 rounds, with the better barrel makers advertising an 8000-round life. Buying an older rifle with a worn barrel can be a good value if it has the sights with it, and you can have it rebarreled and rebedded so you are starting fresh. Rebarreling has to be done by a qualified smith, but bedding the rifle yourself isn't difficult. I literally glue the actions in after bedding so there is no chance for movement at all.

Dunno what barrels are available there, but Kriegers and Douglas with cut rifling are popular here. I use a Krieger. What twist you specify in 7.62 also depends on what ranges and bullet weights you intend to shoot. The barrel maker can best advise you there, but generally a 1-in-10 twist is for a wide range of bullets and ranges, and 1-in-12 or 1-14 for greater velocity but a more limited range of bullets. 1-11 is the classic compromize that is Krieger's default twist rate.

http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/

As most of your practice will be with either the air rifle or dry firing, you don't need an expensive reloading press. A single-stage Rockchucker with match-grade dies and a decent scale served me well, along with a lathe-type case trimmer, which also cleans the primer pockets (important for semi-autos). Critical for long range is to size and trim the cases to match your individual chamber, to weigh each charge, and seat the bullets so the ogive just touches the rifling when single-loaded. I also match the empty cases in lots by weight and turn necks, but this isn't critical. Too bad you aren't closer, as I have a few thousand Lake City Match cases and Lapua 174-grain match bullets I'll probably never use. You want a heavier bullet than that if all you intend to shoot is 800-1000, but it's the basic service rifle bullet.

None of this is cheap at this level. Figure $300 and up for a rifle, another $300 for the sights, and a third $300 for a new barrel with installation costs extra. So if you can find a used rifle with sights in the $300-400 range, jump on it. I'd steer clear of Enfields, L-42's and all the lighter rifles. You want around 13-15lbs of mass, with a stock thick enough to grab hold of properly and not torque under sling pressure. Anything lighter will beat you half to death by the end of the day.

Here's a complete outfit. Rifle, spotting scope, stand, mat, shooting stool. Only here I have a scope mounted on the rifle to train a kid with vision problems.

[Larks]

Bob, I don't mean to piss in your pocket mate, but I never cease to be amazed at your depth of knowledge and generosity in sharing that knowledge. I reckon you'd have no idea how much blokes on here like me appreciate your advice and the opportunity to read what you have to offer and this thread has been no exception. Thank you for taking the time to provide the level of information that you have here, I'm soaking it up!!!!

It seems like most of the guys yesterday had single shot rifles for prone shooting (over the 1000 yards anyway) and my neighbour is certainly looking for a single shot to use with a scope. I haven't yet read up on how wide a range of shooting styles the F class covers, but having read your last post I'm a little more armed with questions for my next shoot.

I reckon I'll be very slow in building up a kit for this hobby anyway, at the moment I'm thinking that I'll keep using the club rifle for a little while and perhaps start with getting myself my own sling so that I can at least set the fit and not stuff up someone elses in doing so. Next will be to keep an eye out for a second hand jacket and glove and maybe start my own reloading to cut down on costs and learn more about the science of reloading and perhaps pick up a reasonable air rifle for practice before I start looking out for a 308 of my own.

[Bob Smalser]

308= 7.62 nato

Not entirely correct actually, and that assumption often gets reloaders into big trouble, especially with semi-auto rifles.

The 7.62 case is the same external dimensions but significantly heavier than the .308 Winchester case. It's heavier because it's also a machine gun round. Hence it has less volume than the .308 case. Hence if you use 308 loading data in a 7.62 case, you may be too hot with too slow of a powder. Here's an example: IMR 4320 is a fine powder, and is routinely loaded in the .308. However, it's pressure curve is too slow for gas guns--powder is still burning and building pressure as the bullet passes over the gas port. Thus, the pressure that flows into the gas cylinder to function the rifle is increasing in intensity and volume--this will in time overstress the tolerances in the operating rod, causing it to flex, bend or break.

Add to that the novice civilian M14/M1A shooter tends not to ream his primer pockets or is satisfied using some wimpy brush instead of a reamer, and between the wrong powder and high primers several fine, match-grade M1A's are wrecked by slam-fires and flying op rods every year on ranges across the county.

The bright side is that these were always a great opportunity for my younger lads to walk up and buy these broken rifles dirt cheap, and I always carried a full set of spares to repair them either on the range or back in the shop. Generally a new bolt, a new op rod, some epoxy to fix the stock and a headspace check and they were back in business.

[Bob Smalser]

And of course between the Omarks and the M14's in 7.62, we are stuck in the 1950's world of technology using forged, milled steel and straight-grained walnut. While that's my strong preference as an old-school geezer. I'll never compete mechanically with the latest 6 mm VLD technology built into David Tubb's Model 2000 rifle, even at 1000 yards:



I don't know David well, but I competed hard against his late father monthly for three years stationed in Oklahoma, and thought highly of them. David is an 11-time national champion Hi-Power shooter. Not shabby at all.

http://www.davidtubb.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kRK05NcAO8

[purri]

Bob, here the traditional rifle used is a bolt action, originally 303 SMLE then Omark but now I believe F class gives some choice and Larks will know. Semi auto centrefires aren't too popular and highly restricted. Originally the rounds were standard factory issue for the NRA courses of fire.

BTW Larks ask abt how things can go wrong when the Omark bolt is incorrectly assembled. It has happened!

As for barrels we have our own manufacturers (2 if I remember) but chambering, sufficient lede, screwing and a barrel trued up square to the bolt face are critical.

[Bob Smalser]

BTW Larks ask abt how things can go wrong when the Omark bolt is incorrectly assembled. It has happened!

I can't help there, as the Omark is a rare exotic here. Except that the Canadian Ross design had a similar problem of misassemblies causing casualties. The most common, old-school bolt-gun action here for competion is the Winchester Model 70, both pre-64 and post-64. Remington 700's are basically lengths of pipe - they lack the Winchester's flat bottom and don't bed as well or as easily.

[Larks]

Bob, here the traditional rifle used is a bolt action, originally 303 SMLE then Omark but now I believe F class gives some choice and Larks will know. Semi auto centrefires aren't too popular and highly restricted. Originally the rounds were standard factory issue for the NRA courses of fire.

BTW Larks ask abt how things can go wrong when the Omark bolt is incorrectly assembled. It has happened!

As for barrels we have our own manufacturers (2 if I remember) but chambering, sufficient lede, screwing and a barrel trued up square to the bolt face are critical.

I'm still too new to know much about this yet Rick, however 308 seems to be the standard. I've downloaded the rules and it looks like 303 is only for club level. I do have a good original condition MkIII Lee Enfield that I've had since I was about 14 but which I've had to leave with a (licensed) friend for the last 20 years or so and I'd like to get that back once I have my license again and see if there's a club comp' that it'll fit into for an occasional shoot. Even when I've gone out with friends in the past to fire off an arsenal of weapons, I've always found my "three oh" to be the most accurate and enjoyable one to fire off. However I don't want to modify it at all and I no longer have the box of shells that I used to have for reloading so I don't know what access to ammo will be like.

3.1.1 Rifles:- Any bolt action, which, in the opinion of the NRAA is of conventional
design and subject to the following conditions:-

1. 3.1.1.1 Rifles chambered for use with the unmodified 7.62mm NATO [or .308 W] or
   the 5.56mm x 45 NATO, or .223 Rem, cartridges are approved for all open
   competitions.
   
2. 3.1.1.2 Rifles chambered for use with the unmodified .303” mark 7 cartridge are
   approved for club level competition only unless the conditions of an open
   competition specifically allow their use.
   
   
   from here: http://www.nraa.com.au/pubs/SSRs.pdf
   

[purri]

Hmmm. From memory the later smellies esp the Fazackerly and Lithgow sniper variant were the more accurate though fore end fitting and correct bolt tension figures certainly helped them all.

Maybe a good post war FN Mauser pattern in 30-06 with a glass stock and re-barrel might be the go for some but the 7.62 NATO would suffer at longer ranges. With the 30-06 you'd have some advantage with VLD 200grn pills over the course of fire. Bob Smalser has some good pointers and probably some real hints at longer ranges where pills reach boundary supersonic to sub sonic speeds where at transition it can all go very wrong.

There is another discipline called "military rifle" and this offers a broader range for local competitors where the 30-06 might do better.

FWIW I do running deer target shoots off the hind legs from 100 to 25 yards (with irons) plus some big game rifle club stuff and this really sorts them out. Interesting that many can't cut the mustard.

[Larks]

Bob, what do you think of the Lee loader kits? I know they're fine for basic hunting and tin can shooting rounds but do you think they'd do the job for target rounds or would they lack enough precision in some area?

http://leeprecision.com/lee-loader-308-win.html

[Bob Smalser]

Bob, what do you think of the Lee loader kits? l

My issue with them is "why bother"? A used single-stage press can be had for less money than a new Lee Loader, and these things last forever.

I'd also be concerned about consistent resizing and perfectly-concentric bullet seating without having a press. While the stock resizing dies work fine, the match-grade seating die makes a difference at the ranges you intend to shoot.

And again, find your game before choosing a rifle. It sounds like your clubs are focused on the international Palma Match @ 15 shots slow-fire per yard line at 800, 900 and 1000. That lets out the 30-06, and obliviates any need for a magazine gun. Just as well, as simpler is better. Plus the longer the cartridge case, the less inherent stiffness and the greater the opportunity for error. Anything the 30-06 can do the 7.62 can do just about as well. Rather than waste that extra length and in the absence of match rules otherwise, in a bolt gun I'd step up to a 300 Winchester Magnum instead. The heavier the bullet and the faster it gets to the target, the less impact the wind can have.

[Larks]

I'm sort of skipping back and forward through the rules as these sort of things, which I'd have never otherwise have thought of, arise Bob. I need to find out if the club shoots both F standard and F open divisions but it looks like the cartridge length itself is limited only in the F standard division. The clubs web site doesn't have a great deal of detail, however going on the score sheets on there, in F class they shoot 300, 500, 600, 800, 900 and 1000 yards


APPENDIX 1 Reference to CHAPTER 3APPROVED CARTRIDGES, PROJECTILES and POWDER
All competitors should note the following:-

1. (a) For Target Rifle and F Class Standard, ONLY ammunition and
   projectiles acquired through the NRAA for State AssociationDistribution to its members shall be used in all competitions. (see Rule3.4.1).
2. (b) As issued ammunition or approved projectiles issued for handloadingmust not be modified or interfered with in any way.(see Rule 3.4.8).
3. (c) As issued ammunition or projectiles may be cleaned or lubricated asper Rule 3.4.9.
4. (d) The above points (a), (b) and (c) do not apply to ammunition used for FOpen Class.

Target Rifle and F Standard Disciplines – Cartridges Allowed
(a) 7.62 x 51 mm NATO (also known as .308 Winchester).(b) 5.56 x 45 mm NATO (also known as .223 Remington.)(c) .303” British.
F Open Cartridges
Any cartridge is allowed. See the following reference to restrictions onprojectiles.
Match Rifle



(a) 7.62 x 51 mm NATO (also known as .308 Winchester).
PROJECTILES ALLOWED
The following projectiles are at present approved for handloading for TargetRifle and F Class Standard Disciplines.


[IMG]file:///page105image6596[/IMG] .308 Calibre
Sierra MatchKing 2155 155 Grain
Sierra Palma MatchKing 2156 155 Grain
BJD - HBC .308 155 Grain
Nosler HPBT .308 155 grain.

For F Open Division – Projectiles Allowed
Any weight or calibre of projectile provided it does not exceed 8 mm indiameter.
For Match Rifle – Projectiles Allowed
Any .308” calibre and any weight for the projectile.






[IMG]file:///page105image9152[/IMG]

[Phillip Allen]

gad, guys... this stuff is over my head

I like my black powder, re-entry ammo (all shots beyond a couple hundred yards are plunging fire)

6 inch staff on my tang sight

[Phillip Allen]

I'm with Smalser on the reloading equipment... don't get fancy with the dillon stuff unless you are more interested in volume (ever look at the sights on a machine gun... pretty simple sights and worn out barrels

get a sturdy, single stage press and invest in the dies, scales and other stuff... load one round at a time and you won't be thinking about any other shot besides the one you NEED to be thinking about

[purri]

Larks,

The standard 308 (7.62)NATO would be the cheapest to run for fun. As I understand the go is to get the greatest volume and case volume reliability (QA) and develop a load that has least SD (standard deviation) in velocity. Each barrel has its "sweet spot" for accuracy and running in one requires lesser loads=vels and a stringent swab between each string.

If you get serious for Palma then a 300 WIN Mag is the go as the case diameter is expanded to accomodate a shorter powder column, id est a shorter burn time and greater inherent accuracy but there are many variables incl neck turning, primer pocket turning, partial neck sizing, match chamber specs cutting etc,etc.

I don't do this gig and it's of minimal interest to me so I leave it to the OCBs.

And Phillip, my Alex Henry 500/450 does not too bad to 300 but it serves me better as a meat getter.

[Phillip Allen]

Larks,

The standard 308 (7.62)NATO would be the cheapest to run for fun. As I understand the go is to get the greatest volume and case volume reliability (QA) and develop a load that has least SD (standard deviation) in velocity. Each barrel has its "sweet spot" for accuracy and running in one requires lesser loads=vels and a stringent swab between each string.

If you get serious for Palma then a 300 WIN Mag is the go as the case diameter is expanded to accomodate a shorter powder column, id est a shorter burn time and greater inherent accuracy but there are many variables incl neck turning, primer pocket turning, partial neck sizing, match chamber specs cutting etc,etc.

I don't do this gig and it's of minimal interest to me so I leave it to the OCBs.

And Phillip, my Alex Henry 500/450 does not too bad to 300 but it serves me better as a meat getter.

I imagin you understand my 'plunging fire' joke..

[purri]

^Yeah verily, but the Rigby .461 falling block was no slouch once the round transited the supersonic zone. AFAIK plunging fire, yeah it's a given in "beaten/ denied territory" even now in the current ops manuals.

[BrianW]

Bob,

Any experience with the new "short magnums" in .308, such as the Winchester Short Magnum, or the Remington "Short Action Ultra Magnum"?

Seems they give 300WinMag velocities with the heavier .308 bullets (180-220gr), in a short action.

[The Bigfella]

Greg, I've got some fired-once 308 brass laying around that you can have if you want it.

[Larks]

Greg, I've got some fired-once 308 brass laying around that you can have if you want it.

Absolutely!!! You don't need to offer something like that twice, thanks Ian. If I was in the States I'd have dived on Bobs brass just as quick.

I wasted a pleasant evening last night searching for second hand loading gear, although I'll have to wait a bit before I start spending any $$$ on this little hobby I reckon Tom (my neighbour) and I could go halves in one.

[Bob Smalser]

As I understand the go is to get the greatest volume and case volume reliability (QA) and develop a load that has least SD (standard deviation) in velocity. Each barrel has its "sweet spot" for accuracy and running in one requires lesser loads=vels and a stringent swab between each string.

And there's an real easy way to find that "sweet spot" too.

Beginner's "Gotcha" #3.

Reloaders “work up “ a load by reducing book data and shooting incrementally-increasing powder loads until they reach the load specified in the book, checking for signs of pressure and that the shots stay on target. This is only half of it. To optimize a handload to the harmonics of your rifle barrel, use the following procedure:

Use bullets, cases, powder and primers you know you can get more of. No exotics or one-off sales.

Clean primer pockets with a lathe-type scraping tool like a Forstner.

Trim cases to a uniform length, whether they need it or not. Case length is not critical, just take a minimum amount off to get them uniform.

Weigh your clean, trimmed cases and segregate them into lots of plus or minus 2 grains.

Set the resizing die beginning at tallest setting by turning it down in tiny increments until the case just fits the chamber of your rifle - as tight as possible and still functions reliably.

Set the seating die to insert the bullets as tall as possible - just touching the rifling - but not so far that ejecting a loaded cartridge causes the bullet to be pulled.

Make a primerless/powderless dummy - mark with fingernail polish - and keep it with dies as your length reference to be checked with calipers. Don't fall in love with it - you may have to redo it after your powder test if it's set too long.

Reprime using match rifle primers or a conventional non-magnum primer like the Remington 9 1/2. Whatever you do, never mix primers.

Make a dozen or so test cartridges beginning with three or four grains under the maximum load listed in the book… in .2 grain increments…all the way to maximum load. Label each using a Sharpie. But watch pressure signs as you fire them.

Swab the oil from bore with Hoppes or other powder solvent followed by a dry patch - never shoot a bore with oil in it.

Shoot them at 100yds, marking and labeling each hit on a chart using your spotting scope. They will generally print low and string upward, with 3 or 4 in one, ragged hole – the powder weight in the center of that big, ragged hole is your load for that rifle. Examine closely each case as it is ejected for flattened/blown-by primers, case stretching, and any bright ring near the case head (headspace excessive). The primers should gradually flatten until they practically melt into the case head with the hottest loads - but I don't recommend going that high - no need to and hot loads aren't as accurate.

Double check how your load resizes and seats/fires once more to make sure you are not too tight or too long.

[Bob Smalser]

I need to find out if the club shoots both F standard and F open divisions but it looks like the cartridge length itself is limited only in the F standard division.

1. (a) For Target Rifle and F Class Standard, ONLY ammunition and
projectiles acquired through the NRAA for State Association Distribution to its members shall be used in all competitions. (see Rule3.4.1).

2. (b) As issued ammunition or approved projectiles issued for handloading must not be modified or interfered with in any way.(see Rule 3.4.8).

F Open Cartridges
Any cartridge is allowed. See the following reference to restrictions on projectiles.

Sierra MatchKing 2155 155 Grain
Sierra Palma MatchKing 2156 155 Grain

F-Class is a new discipline I'm not very familiar with, but here they use scopes and both forearm and toe rests. It sounds like your F-Class is different, with the "standard" class competing with only issue 155-grain Palma ammunition and Palma rifles with only sling support, and your "open" class allowing 300 Win Mag and 30-338 AMU Mag, but not 338 Mag.

I suspect there are more competitors and better support in the "standard" class, and that's probably where you should start. It's also less expensive shooting 7.62 because of the surplus components available.

The 155-grain is the specified Palma Match round. And shooting light, 155-grain bullets in standard loads at 1000yds is fine, providing everyone else is. But as a match director in Oklahoma I've postponed or canceled many a machine gun match (the Army and Marines also compete with light machine guns shooting 150-grain bullets) because the wind was so bad the test firing hit two targets downwind of the aiming point. For the M14’s we used 174-grain M118 Special Ball (sniper ammo), which bucks the wind better.

Any experience with the new "short magnums" in .308, such as the Winchester Short Magnum...

No. Too new. Other than training the occasional youngster or running clinics, I've been out of this for over 20 years. Otherwise I'm curious if they can use standard handloader powders.

[BrianW]

No. Too new. Other than training the occasional youngster or running clinics, I've been out of this for over 20 years. Otherwise I'm curious if they can use standard handloader powders.

I had one, in a Remongton M7, but never shot it. Gave it to my son for his birthday. But yes, they do use standard powders, although there's a lot of new powders out there these days which are geared towards them.

[Larks]

F-Class is a new discipline I'm not very familiar with, but here they use scopes and both forearm and toe rests. It sounds like your F-Class is different, with the "standard" class competing with only issue 155-grain Palma ammunition and Palma rifles with only sling support, and your "open" class allowing 300 Win Mag and 30-338 AMU Mag, but not 338 Mag.

I'd say it's probably the same here as with you. It seemed on Saturday that it was half and half, ie half the guys were shooting with scopes, bipods (or other foreward stands) and toe rests as you describe, with the rest like me shooting open sights with slings, jacket, glove. My neighbour shoots with the scope as he couldn't see the target otherwise. I think the scoring is different for either style as well, the scope scoring a max 6.1 for a super V and open sights scoring 5.1 for the same.

[Bob Smalser]

... on Saturday that it was half and half, ie half the guys were shooting with scopes, bipods (or other foreward stands) and toe rests as you describe, with the rest like me shooting open sights with slings, jacket, glove.

Sounds like the club is mixing Palma shooters with F-Class. Good efficiency, as the logistics of running a thousand-yard range are considerable.

But if I were you, I'd stick with the Palma class with slings and irons. Besides the potential of higher-end international competition, if for no other reason that you can. There'll be plenty of time for sick-lame-lazy games later for those who can no longer see or properly hold a serious target rifle.

[Phillip Allen]

Sounds like the club is mixing Palma shooters with F-Class. Good efficiency, as the logistics of running a thousand-yard range are considerable.

But if I were you, I'd stick with the Palma class with slings and irons. Besides the potential of higher-end international competition, if for no other reason that you can. There'll be plenty of time for sick-lame-lazy games later for those who can no longer see or properly hold a serious target rifle.

TAKE THAT! Paul and Brian

[Larks]

Sounds like the club is mixing Palma shooters with F-Class. Good efficiency, as the logistics of running a thousand-yard range are considerable.

But if I were you, I'd stick with the Palma class with slings and irons. Besides the potential of higher-end international competition, if for no other reason that you can. There'll be plenty of time for sick-lame-lazy games later for those who can no longer see or properly hold a serious target rifle.

I reckon I will do just that Bob, I did have a go with the scope but I enjoyed the open sights much more (particularly when I realised that I could still shoot). It also seemed like it was actually easier for me to be competitive with the open sights, by that I mean it seems like most people there can shoot reasonably well with a scope as long as they can read the breeze and lifts over the ground, so more difficult to be competitive in that class.

[purri]

rule 1; don't cant the rifle!

[Larks]

rule 1; don't cant the rifle!

I was quite amazed at the sights on the rifle that I used, I remember that there was a tiny bubble level below the foresight, I didn't actually use it and can't really remember or picture how it sat or where it actually was and it seemed a bit of a waste of time to me, but I remember thinking at the time that the concept of it was feasable and I could understand why some people may use it. I might pay a bit more attention to it on Thursday and see if it makes any difference to the "verticality" of my hold.

[BrianW]

TAKE THAT! Paul and Brian

Yes.

When I'm hunting with a 12lb rifle, in a straight jacket, on a known distance range, with a spotter doping wind, in bright daylight, and not worried about the target being wounded and lost, I'm down with Palma Class rules.

[Phillip Allen]

rule 1; don't cant the rifle!

yep... try that with a 6 inch staff on the rear sight