Adding bench boards to stitchNglue

[bluedogsailor]

I thought I'd grieve forever after I sold my 30' sloop a few years ago ...but then found a 15' wooden row/sail in a used car lot for $250. Now I'm in love again... See photos at http://armadilloisland.com/wooden-bolger-oar-sail

I've STILL don't know whose design it is (very similar to an Otter 16). Any guesses?????

Anyway, I'm adding bench boards to extend the aft most bench all the way to the transom (for a larger seating platform while sailing in light air and for storage underneath). QUESTION: Any downsides to having these boards resting on fore-to-aft braces mounted on the hull right at a stitchNglue seam??????????

Also, I've only sailed in light air and am curious about sailing characteristics of this design under stronger wind conditions. As a rowboat first, sailboat second, beam is certainly narrower and I'm new to hard chines... Your thoughts? I plan to try to turn her over on purpose (in shallow water) when temps are warmer in order to see what it takes to flip.

Again, photos are at http://armadilloisland.com/wooden-bolger-oar-sail (Am new to attaching files here and had trouble with jpeg size)

Thanks in advance for your input.

-- Tim (blue dog)

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

The pictures you've posted don't give us an idea of what design it is. If you post a good picture of the inside layout without those boards we can see the shape of the bottom and the style of construction. All S&G designers don't work the same. A picture like this has enough definition to tell you a lot about the design and the method of consruction.
http://gallery.bateau2.com/displayim...bum=343&pos=11
If you are talking about Bateau's Otter, it is a rather new design and there aren't that many out there yet.

[bluedogsailor]

Thanks for your reply. I've added some more photos (scroll down, they're interspersed with others at http://jonesberry.com/?page_id=2046). In addition to more photos of my mystery boat --showing more of the layout and the braces I installed for bench boards-- I've included photos of two boats that seem similar: the Otter 16 and Dobler's "Lissa".

What do you think about my plan for the bench braces?

What do think are the sailing characteristics this boat under more than light air. More than 15mph wind?

And who do you think designed it?

Will be glad for any and all input. --Tim (BlueDog)

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Looks like a super little boat but it's definitely not a Bateau Otter and I doubt it is a Dobler Lissa because the center board and rudder are much different.
The reason you boat has it's rear seat so far foreward is it's hurts performance if you put too much weight close to the transom so that it drags in the water. Your displacement speed is about 5 Kn with ideal conditions and you only get that if you trim properly. Weight also enters into the equation. The boat may carry 500-600 lbs. but it will be a sluggish sailer if the weight gets anywhere near that.
My experience is not very extensive and I have only sailed small boats. When wind and water catch me in the open I sit on the bottom. And lately I have spent a lot of time there. I guess I'm getting a little chicken-hearted.

[Hunky Dory]

The hull looks a little like a Payson cartopper to me

[Bert Langley]

It really looks like a Phil Bolger gypsy (the Pyson cartopper's big brother) to me.

[JimConlin]

I'm not sure how the identity of the design matters. A larger platform at the transom will stiffen the hull in twisting and might serve some other purposes, too.
An enclosed buoyancy tank would make the boat safer. You could get access inside with plastic deckplates or access hatches like these.


One drawback to the plan would be that you couldn't row from the back thwart.

[bluedogsailor]

Hey Guys,

Thanks for all the input. I agree that the design may have at least been influenced by Bolger. Have tried to track down the name of the builder but the boat had been donated to a charity auction from a 2nd or 3rd owner and the auction house sold it to the used car lot that I bought it from. The last owner [rior to the auction won't return my phone calls or mail. I suspect it was built either in VA or NC. Am going to try tracking that via title registration but am told they may not release that info. There's something about homemade boats --and wooden boats particularly-- that encourages knowing (and appreciating) the designer and builder. To me anyway...

That's a good point about the extra weight aft affecting sailing characteristics. I see the expanded bench area as being for long light air tacking, for motoring (electric trolling motor) and fishing. I"ll sit on the floor with the wind picks up. Aftert I've had a chance to see how it handles under strong wind conditions (reefed), I may add a bowsprit and small head sail.

Wood, versus fiberglass, definitely has a different feel. There's something about that wooden mast and spars that makes the boat almost as enjoyable as the much larger boat I had to sell recently. I think I'll enjoy rowing/sailing/camping on an island (on a large lake near here) as much as I did having so many conveniences and comforts on the larger boat.

Anyway (again), thanks for you ideas.

[Jefe]

It really looks like a Phil Bolger gypsy (the Pyson cartopper's big brother) to me.

Yep.

[bluedogsailor]

It's very similar yet the differences make me wonder... Unlike Gypsy, this has a sliding gunter rig and no benches running along the sides (only those running across the beam). Also, the rudder and centerboard are much different than Gypsy.

This design is much tippier than any sailboat I've ever had (I assume because the narrower beam is meant more for rowing). In order to use it on a very large lake or perhaps even to access some of South Carolina's sea islands (ones not too far offshore), I'm tempted to convert it to a proa or trimaran. My initial questions are 1) how big would the outrigger need to be to avoid burying and potentially flipping sideways? 2) Would the added weight and resistance have too much a negative impact on speed (or could I add a headsail) and 3) has anyone seen an suitable outrigger design that would still be easy to trailer and set up?

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Why not take the time to learn the peculiarities of this boat before you start dreaming up ways to make it into something completely different? Once you go down that road you become the designer whether you want to be or not. If it becomes too sluggish to tack or developes lee helm it will be up to you to figure it out.

[bluedogsailor]

Good suggestion about taking time to know the boat better before rushing ahead with modifications etc. When I bought the 30 footer (after not having had a sailboat in many years), I sure did make the mistake of rushing out to buy all the latest/greatest marine products for cleaning teak, cleaning fuel, etc. --was just excited I guess. And wasted a lot of money and time. But my interest in an outrigger for my new acquisition is also tied into a 7' fiberglass dinghy and 15' canoe that would BOTH also benefit from an outrigger set up. For instance, something like this http://www.cabelas.com/canoe-kayak-a...&mr:adType=pla

Would be great if this set up would work for all three of my boats...

[Jefe]

It's very similar yet the differences make me wonder... Unlike Gypsy, this has a sliding gunter rig and no benches running along the sides (only those running across the beam). Also, the rudder and centerboard are much different than Gypsy.

Yeah - there are some differences, but I still think it's a Gypsy with some builder/owner mods. Check out Chip Skiffs thread. He's got a lug and made some modifications to his.

[Michael Wick]

Looks a lot like my Bolger Gypsy. Over the years, I've found her to be almost ideal as a sailing/rowing boat. I wouldn't want to change her too much until you get familiar with her virtues.

[Chip-skiff]

Thanks, Jefe, for the heads-up. She's a Bolger Gyspy.

I found one on CraigsList and stripped her to the hull for a rebuild. Here's the thread:

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...Elf&highlight=

Last year I built a new rig:

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...psy&highlight=

Here's a photo of the present setup:



The main differences from the original design are: decks and sealed compartments fore and aft, for flotation; rope steering; additional bracing for the mast partner; two 60 lb. sandbags on either side of the daggerboard case for solo sailing; and balance lug rig.

I tore out the side benches, as the hull is narrow and quite tender and I couldn't sit on them except in a high wind.

She's great fun to sail and also a great rowing boat.

[Chip-skiff]

A few more notes—

The drawings and building instructions for Phil Bolger's Gypsy can be found in Build the New Instant Boats by Harold "Dynamite" Payson.



My boat has an offset daggerboard, per the plans. I've not seen a centerboard such as your boat has. It also came with the original 59 sq. ft. leg-of-mutton rig (shown on my threads) rather than the gunter. I built a new 66 sq. ft. balance lug rig which adds a bit of speed with no greater heeling, and allows me to reef the sail or drop the rig entirely with no fuss.



For solo sailing, adding a pair of 60 lb. sandbags (the tube sand sold to weight the rear axle of trucks) helps steady her down on her lines without hurting her speed a great deal. For rowing, I'd leave the ballast onshore. You'll get used to the initial tenderness and the chined hull has quite a lot of secondary stability.

She really is a sweet sailer, and will make way (and tack) in imperceptible breezes. I've never been in irons, nor had to break out the oars to get back to the ramp.

Post some photos of your finished work, and keep in touch.

[bluedogsailor]

Chip,

First, nice meeting you and thanks a bunch for the input and photos, etc. Did Bolger sell plans & kits? If so, wonder what they would've cost for Gypsy?

I really like the modifications you made. Especially the foam filled areas for added buoyancy. Have you tried filling her up? Will she stay afloat? Would she sink without the added buoyancy?

i notice that Bolger's design calls for more "dagger" shaped rudder and center board versus what I have. Am wondering why the builder of mine went with the rounder shapes? Wonder what the difference in handling would be... Also, I really would prefer a kick-up rudder and centerboard but can probably get used to what I have. I like your revised steering set up --my set up makes it damn tricky to leave the helm to let the sail down or reef the sail. If I'm ever going to get my wife aboard, I'll need to switch to a set up like yours (How does that steering work under heavy wind?) Where are the best spots to place a guest or two when underway?

Also, I'm going to run out TODAY and find some sandbags. Great idea.

It's definitely different switching from a larger boat back to smaller. I notice how out of shape (and larger) I am versus when I was a kid sailing Sunfish, a Zef and a Ray Greene Rascal. My big boat was a lot easier to get around on but, with wheel steering, didn't feel nearly as fun and close to the action as this little one does.

Thanks again for your help. Where do you sail?

[Chip-skiff]

I think Bolger sold plans, but quite a few people built Gypsy from the plans in Payson's book, which lists his address as the source for plans. He had some sort of arrangement with Bolger, I reckon, to share the proceeds.

The decked areas aren't filled with foam. Foam's a butt-cramp if you ever need to work on the hull inside. The wood's coated with epoxy and the decks are sealed to the hull with SikaFlex caulk, to make the compartments watertight, with gasketed hatches for airing and access. There's enough flotation to keep her on the surface, with the rails awash in the middle.

The rudder and daggerboard that came with the boat were as drawn, and built instant-style: plywood with the edges rounded. At speed, the rudder would make a fuss, burbling, and I could feel the drag. So I carved a new one with a foil shape, and also shaped the daggerboard somewhat. That made a noticeable difference.

P'raps your original builder wanted shallower draft and modified the rudder and board to that end. My rudder is the pivoting sort, but you could also try a sliding type such as the one on the Goat Island Skiff.

If you scroll through my threads you can see the new rudder setup and the rope steering, that I adopted from the Herreshoff Coquina. It works fine in the strongest wind I've sailed in— about 15 knots and gusty. The boat is fast as the devil and also a handful in that sort of wind, as I don't have her set up for hiking. I added a couple thumbcleats so I can lock the steering for a bit, but I don't need to do that often.

The rope steering feels a bit soft, compared to a tiller, but if you use static (i.e. non-stretch) line you'll get used to it. I mucked around with homemade tiller extensions (which tended to come apart) and would recommend getting a solid commercial product if you go that way, or building a jointed outboard steering system such as the Oughtred boats and faerings use.

Scrolling through my threads you'll also find details of the two rigs. For sailing with two (and teaching) I use the leg-of-mutton sail with a double-ended mainsheet, so I can trim either forward or from the rear seat (the rope steering allows me to have the helm in either position and also to hand over the sheet or helm without changing position). The best spots for you & crew depend in part on your relative weights. Assuming you're heavier, I'd take the center spot with her on the rear bench (but with tiller steering you'll have to take the aft seat). For the L-O-M rig, I built a 5/16" bronze rod horse so the mainsheet clears the rear bench. I don't use it with the lug.

For solo sailing, I prefer the balance lug with the mainsheet rigged with a becket block on the boom to a fiddle block on the center thwart, as I either kneel or slouch just back of the seat and daggerboard case, with a closed-cell foam pad for my knees.

One of the best aspects of a wood boat like Gypsy is that you can rework almost any aspect except the basic shape of the hull. I had so much fun rebuilding her that I'm almost sorry the process is done.

I learned to sail in New Zealand (nice) but at present my home waters are the Laramie Plains lakes (Wyoming), famed for gusty, shifting winds and being frozen half the year, with bone-chilling temps even in summer.

Still, whatever sailing I can get is good sailing.

[Jefe]

http://instantboats.com/images/gypsyst.gif
You can find the plans over at instantboats.com. They're $40. They're also available in the book, but not to scale. There is a forum on the website too.

The plans/book describe how the rudder and daggerboard should be shaped(rounded over fore and tapered aft).

I used (Dow) building foam glued together with foam constuction adhesive. This got cut and shaped to fit under my seats and is held in place with straps.

I built a thwart near the stern just behind the #12 frame. (Which is where you're aft thwart is). Because it's a light boat, I've never really used it.

[bluedogsailor]

I finally got around to finishing the bench seats. Very nice for sitting comfortably in light air. (New photos at http://armadilloisland.com/wooden-bolger-oar-sail/) Guys, I really love this boat and love the experience sailing wood versus plastic. I'll never go back to FRP. Definitely something magical about wood. Will look forward to learning more about wooden boats this winter (but going to play as much as I can all summer). Thanks for all your help. I really appreciate the input and wisdom.