Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 123 ... LastLast
Results 36 to 70 of 202

Thread: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

  1. #36
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Belfast and Marshall Cove, Islesboro, Maine
    Posts
    1,929

    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    Getting rid of a water-logged cored deck part makes a lot of sense. Cutting off the hull to get a more pleasing sheerline may be opening a can or worms. Your hull most likely build with an inward-turning flange at the top of the hull part. This does several useful things: 1) It establishes a fair sheerline 2) stiffens the hull and 3) gives you something to attach the deck to. In FRP construction, it serves in much the same role as the clamp does in wooden construction, with one difference being that because someone spent something like 500 hours building the plug and mold that made your hull, they almost certainly got it right, with no humps or wobbles in the deck edge.
    IF you're determined to cut that off, I'd suggest that you start by laying out a new sheerline on the outside of the hull with masking tape. When you're satisfied with it, probably the next step would be to fasten a wooden longitudinal on the inside of the hull to serve the function of the flange. Maybe fasten that with screws coming in, setting up on what will become your exterior rub strake, the long also glued to the hull. Then maybe cut the hull down to the new sheerline using a a carbide router bit with a ball bearing guide on the nose, which would run on the longitudinal inside the hull.
    My guess is that this will take at least 80 hours of work and maybe $750 worth of materials, depending on the wood, fasteners, and glue used.
    For the mast, one approach would be to have an extension welded onto the butt of the mast, and build a mast step into the hull. One disadvantage of a fin keel hull is that the step cannot just land on top of the ballast keel, essentially using the keel casting as your longitudinal beam.
    The hull will need some kind of bulkhead to reinforce the hull against the loads imposed by the shrouds. Probably the existing main bulkhead does double duty as a compression member for the mast, and a diaphragm to resist the shroud loads. Maybe this is still in good enough shape to cut back into "stub" bulkheads for the shrouds, but then you'll have to build a conventional deck at the mast, with partners, hanging knees to support the cuddy house sides, etc.
    Some nice things about the vessel as configured now are: 1) self draining cockpit 2) dry stowage in the cockpit lockers 3) The cabin trunk is high enough to provide some protection against spray. A shorter, lower trunk may improve esthetics, and it may also have the more obscure function of keeping the helmsman's face rosy-pink and nicely clean from all the spray flying aft.
    In conclusion, I thought that a lot of RBgarr's comments make sense. If you've got a working boat, maybe the thing to do is use her for a season, and see how many of the modern amenities you're willing to trade off for traditional esthetics. I personally like to have a berth to lie down on, and a comfortable place to sit belowdecks. About 9/10's of the women with whom I've sailed very much prefer an enclosed head and place to change clothes. Even kids who love sailing and cruising like to have a dry little den to creep into for a nap and some time in their own world.
    SEO

  2. #37
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Norwalk CT
    Posts
    690

    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    I had a Catalina 27 for a few years and the stanchions were very poorly mounted. The conventional wisdom was to cut away the in turned flange that SEO describes and install backing plates. I tried a number of cutting methods and the one that worked the fastest was a diamond grit wheel in a 4 inch grinder. I'd try that for removing the material around the stringers. Good respirator, tyvek suit and tape all the zippers and your cuffs. There is nothing on earth worse than FG dust.

    Early Cal boats had an out turned flange on the deck and hull sections that was covered by a rubbing strip like you see on the Tempest. I did some work on a Pearson Elelktra years ago and the hull and deck joint was just a flat butt joint with a few scraggly layers of FG tape around the inside. It had big chunks of white oak slathered with chop and epoxy where the shroud chain plates, the stem head fixture and the backstay tang were bolted.

    Good luck!

  3. #38
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Belfast and Marshall Cove, Islesboro, Maine
    Posts
    1,929

    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    Early on, a lot of different methods got tried in FRP construction, just as in the present there are lots of different approaches to resin-infusion molding. Since this string is directed toward modifying FRP hulls, and is running at a site that's primarily directed to wood boat people, it might not be out of place to make a few observations about FRP construction. I've been surveying boats since 1987, and have inspected a lot of FRP hulls. As a surveyor, as opposed to being a builder, a machinery guy, an electrician, I have to keep an open mind. I cannot condemn every hull that's not built the way I think it should be done. It necessary to keep an open mind, recognizing what will work even if it's not ideal, and what is such a screwy system that it limits the vessel's utility.
    So, with that in mind, here are a few points, "don'ts" first:
    1) Don't underestimate FRP as a material. It is incredibly strong and durable, and can be molded into just about any shape. The fact that some FRP vessels are ungainly is not because of the material. There are reasons why FRP has just about totally replaced wood as a hull construction material, and they don't all have to do with some idea that only people who work in wood know what makes a good boat.
    2) Don't underestimate the people who design and build FRP vessels. They are as smart and inventive as wood or metal builders, and they can build really good structures. The precision and craftmanship that go into making a first-class mold is impressive, even if one finds fault with the esthetics of the end product.
    3) Don't make the mistake of thinking that because wood is more satisfying to work with that this somehow means that you automatically know all about FRP construction; any more than an FRP guy should think he knows all about wood just because it's "old fashioned." It is worthwhile it to consult with and listen to people who have spent a lot of time and attention on FRP structures. This is particularly true of the elderly FRP vessels that are available for incredibly cheap. There's a reason why experienced FRP owners don't want them. Some of it may be that FRP construction has gotten a lot better since the '60's, and some of those old boats were built with questionable methods.
    DO
    1) Remember that there are special tools for working with FRP. In my shop I have literally dozens of tools for cutting wood; circular saws, reciprocating saws, bandsaws, routers, "Fein" saws, Jap saws, backsaws, chainsaws, yadayadayada, world without end. As people have commented above, cutting fully kicked FRP is hard to do. The great trick for builders is to make the molds good enough so that there's not much cutting to do. Sawzalls work, and so do routers. In any case, part of any good cutting set-up is a vacuum system to snorkel up the dust as it's being generated. The closer the suction is to the stream of chips coming out of the cut, the better.
    2) Anytime you're grinding or cutting inside the cabin, you should first empty out the boat. Think of it as an opportunity for spring cleaning...
    3) Remember that one of the basic materials of FRP builders is something called "hull and deck" putty. It's a polyester material sort of like automotive "bondo," but it's waterproof and incredibly tough, and very cheap compared to epoxy. If someone asked me about a problem like that described in #37 above, I'd suggest that a 1" thick pad of hull and deck on the underside of the deck would reinforce the deck in way of the stanchions, and serve as a "grout" bedding to set the backing plate in.

  4. #39
    Join Date
    Feb 2000
    Location
    England
    Posts
    205

    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    "Another point here is whether to actually build a "new boat" compared to just fixing up an old one. I'm interested in the project as shown in the links above where Tim Lackey actually built a totally new boat ( the Triton and the Shields), which made his work a much better investment as anyone who later was considering buying such a conversion... would know there were no problematic areas "period". Perhaps the dollars you spend to do a "complete job" will more than be worth the "increased value" you get from the finished package." ............. RodB

    My vote is to spend as little money on the project as possible. Whilst it's a little unfair to say "you can't make a silk purse out of a pig's ear", there's no getting away from the fact that no matter how much money and time you spend on the project the boat'll still have a 30 year old hull and (some) fittings.

    The other thing to consider is what exactly do you have? A hull, spars, sails (?), and some fittings. If you put a value on these items now, the more money you spend on the remainder of the project, the more the value of these recovered items become an increasingly small proportion of the value of the whole project (compared to using new items).

    For example -

    Old hull etc 5k + fit out 5k = 10k
    Old hull etc 5k + fit our 35k = 40k
    New hull etc 15k + fit out 35k = 50k

    I've used random and extreme figures, but it illustrates the point I think. In reality a new hull etc would cost more than three times the notional value you put on the old items you have, but the tendency is still there.

    John

  5. #40
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Dallas and points north
    Posts
    7,620

    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    Some damn good comments here to consider...

    I initially considered this project as a relatively attractive smaller old iron keeled sailboat hull designed by Philip Rhodes... and it was relatively inexpensive and seemed in pretty good shape. The decks were coming apart and very badly warped and delaminating, so I knew no one would buy it or even consider refurbishing it. I also had the "daysailer concept" from Tim Lackey's website in the back of my mind. Additionally, I knew the boat was pretty small (23.2 feet LOD) and thus would not be a gigantic project. I had a suspicion I could likely get the steel cradle and the 5hp Nissan outboard thrown in if I took it. The local dealer, who I do repairs for, tried to sell the hull with an outboard for $1500 for at least a couple of months and never had any interest.

    I figured I could gut her 2-3 weeks of nasty work... and then take my time (with a good friend as a partner) and more or less follow Tim Lackeys lead and convert her to a simple daysailer. I pretty much knew the hull would need to be evaluated carefully before any decision was made to proceed and I also knew my experience with epoxy in boat building would allow me to handle any of the restoration tasks and to make her plenty strong and sound. I estimated I could keep expenses below $5-6K unless we decided to replace the sails or perhaps the mast. Anyway.... these were my initial thoughts.....

    1) COMMENTS FROM SEO: Don't underestimate FRP as a material. It is incredibly strong and durable, and can be molded into just about any shape. The fact that some FRP vessels are ungainly is not because of the material. There are reasons why FRP has just about totally replaced wood as a hull construction material, and they don't all have to do with some idea that only people who work in wood know what makes a good boat.
    2) Don't underestimate the people who design and build FRP vessels. They are as smart and inventive as wood or metal builders, and they can build really good structures. The precision and craftmanship that go into making a first-class mold is impressive, even if one finds fault with the esthetics of the end product.
    3) Don't make the mistake of thinking that because wood is more satisfying to work with that this somehow means that you automatically know all about FRP construction; any more than an FRP guy should think he knows all about wood just because it's "old fashioned." It is worthwhile it to consult with and listen to people who have spent a lot of time and attention on FRP structures. This is particularly true of the elderly FRP vessels that are available for incredibly cheap. There's a reason why experienced FRP owners don't want them. Some of it may be that FRP construction has gotten a lot better since the '60's, and some of those old boats were built with questionable methods.
    DO
    1) Remember that there are special tools for working with FRP. In my shop I have literally dozens of tools for cutting wood; circular saws, reciprocating saws, bandsaws, routers, "Fein" saws, Jap saws, backsaws, chainsaws, yadayadayada, world without end. As people have commented above, cutting fully kicked FRP is hard to do. The great trick for builders is to make the molds good enough so that there's not much cutting to do. Sawzalls work, and so do routers. In any case, part of any good cutting set-up is a vacuum system to snorkel up the dust as it's being generated. The closer the suction is to the stream of chips coming out of the cut, the better.
    2) Anytime you're grinding or cutting inside the cabin, you should first empty out the boat. Think of it as an opportunity for spring cleaning...
    3) Remember that one of the basic materials of FRP builders is something called "hull and deck" putty. It's a polyester material sort of like automotive "bondo," but it's waterproof and incredibly tough, and very cheap compared to epoxy. If someone asked me about a problem like that described in #37 above, I'd suggest that a 1" thick pad of hull and deck on the underside of the deck would reinforce the deck in way of the stanchions, and serve as a "grout" bedding to set the backing plate in.
    SEO... thanks for your input on this thread I appreciate your sharing your experience. I have been doing fiberglass repair for a few years as it is commonly called for in old and new sailboats in my area but my love is wooden boats. From my experience and research (which may be in error) hull core samples in older FRP Boats can be quite dense after 20+ years and many such boats still have sound hulls (see the used boat evaluation writeups from Practical Sailor). With this in mind, many older FRP models that were quite popular are still around and have strong followings (Cape Dorys for example). So... perhaps I am in error here but if I can do some more in depth evaluation of this Tempest hull and find the overall FRP matrix is more or less sound... and I have the knowledge and experience to utilize epoxy to completely stabilize the hull by reinforcing and/or adding a moisture barrier of epoxy to the hull with replacement of the structural elements that require it... why would this hull not be a candidate to be rebuilt as a daysailer? Secondly, is it not a viable approach where the interior hull stringers etc are replaced with epoxy and quality wood... and the decks are rebuilt as with a wooden hull as show above in this thread where, as you described in your first post, Mr Lackey thru bolted sheer planks along the sheer... and then framed the deck from there? I may be wrong but so far it seems the majority of the Tempest hull is not delaminated and I can fix or repair any areas that need help... BTW...this hull does not seem to have any blistering. After your comments... I definitely plan to do plenty of drilling and testing to investigate the health of the hull but my tapping tests seem fine so far. Believe me, I'd rather just walk away rather than get into a mess of a job that the end results was not a solid craft.

    I'm curious if you had a chance to look over Tim Lackeys website to see how thoroughly he went through his Pearson Triton and how he ended up with a good sound hull to begin the "building" process.
    The entire project in chronological order
    http://www.lackeysailing.com/daysailor/projects1.htm

    the interior "unbuilding"
    http://www.lackeysailing.com/daysail...ding/hull2.htm

    Your points are all well taken .... and having worked some in fiberglass repair, I appreciate the strength of the material and the difficulty in working on these boats in many situations. I have never thought the engineering in these boats was poor, only that some seemed to be much lesser in build quality than others and that wood elements of these boats tend to be the most likely victim of neglect. Your comments in your first post are well worth considering too, and I am likely to pay heed to them in order to maintain a good sailing craft, which I'm sure Mr Rhodes did a good job of designing. In regards to your other comments in your first post, this Tempest is not a "working boat" as she is and I'm not really interested in sailing an old "wreck" that is just holding together or to restore a 30 year old fiberglass boat. I am interested in converting an appealing hull into a daysailer as shown in the concept drawing. Thanks for your construction suggestions in the gutted hull.

    I'll post my findings as I proceed through the demolition and would welcome any comments you may have.

    John Hesp... Your point is well taken and may be the best approach... but... I would like to point out I did read that Mr Lackey began listing his 26 foot Pearson Triton conversion for $89K ( I read this in a Messing about in boats blog) and it sold within a couple of weeks (sale price not known). The point was made that because of the extent of the three year rebuild that for all practical purposes, this boat was a new boat and of course the quality of Mr Lackey's work was an important element to be considered. The hull was very likely every bit as strong and way more water proof than when first built and all systems were rebuilt or replaced including the sails, the engine, thru hulls, etc. I doubt he made any money when you consider his labor, but his work was not for naught... he learned a lot and ended up being paid for some of it. I am just saying if you refurbish the boat to a bit higher level of finish and appeal... when you decide to sell her, you may recoup more for your time and money. Another point, how many "Tempest's converted to a pretty daysailer" are there around (especially if the conversion was well executed)? I can't help it, its my marketing background.

    It is common and interesting that you can look up older FRP boats and a boat can sell for $17K and then the same boat better equipped and in great shape can sell for $49K.... but both are 25 years old. Can an older fairly sound FRP hull that is enhanced and strengthened with modern materials (epoxy etc)... for all practical purposes be elevated to a very well found craft... with many many years of life left in it? The silk purse/sows ear saying could possibly not apply. One thing for sure is that I'd rather abandon the project if it turned out too be too much work but ends up with little value. As I think about the lack of value of wooden boats raised in threads on this forum... I laugh at myself... hell, you never build a boat because you think the resale is one of the most important features... Except for the demolition part of this project, I thought the entire process would be a lot of fun. If I enjoy the project and she ends up looking quite appealing, then when we decide to get rid of her, I certainly have the sales ability to market such a unique little daysailer to maximize the return on my time and money... OR NOT!

    RodB
    Last edited by RodB; 04-27-2012 at 02:20 AM.

  6. #41
    Join Date
    Feb 2000
    Location
    England
    Posts
    205

    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    "I am just saying if you refurbish the boat to a bit higher level of finish and appeal... when you decide to sell her, you may recoup more for your time and money."

    Yes you might. My point was that I think that there are diminishing returns the more you put in. On the other hand you can't just chuck the thing together with any old materials - that's just throwing time and money away. There's a compromise, and I'd suggest estimating what it's going to cost for several different levels of finish, deciding on one (and personally I'd not get carried away here) and sticking to it. It's easy to think you've done a good job on process A so it might be worth investing a bit more in process B, and a bit more again in process C etc etc.

    John

  7. #42
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Norwalk CT
    Posts
    690

    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    I can think of more reasons to forge head then to back off with this project. As you say, no one builds themselves a new boat or rebuilds an old one for profit. At least no one that I know...

    I see a couple of things working in your favor and maybe SEO has some insight to offer here as well; some of the older glass baots were really wel built. Pearsons, Cals and O'days come to mind. There are a lot of O'Day Daysailers still going strong. Every summer camp on Cape Cod has a batch of them that are as old as I am. Lot's of old Pearsons around too and the Tritons still command a decent dollar if they're in good shape. There are a lot of Pearson Ensigns still sailing as well. Before the price of oil shot up in the seventies and epoxy was still cheap the builders werent scrimping on materials.

    The fact that you are starting with a boat by a big name designer built by a reputable firm should go a long way to easing your concerns about the long term viability of the hull and structure.

    I for one hope you go through with it and come out with a nice little boat.

  8. #43
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Belfast and Marshall Cove, Islesboro, Maine
    Posts
    1,929

    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    How old is this hull?
    Before ripping out the "floor timbers" over the keel, I'd drill into them and see what's inside. All things being equal, I'd rather add half an inch of frp to the outside of the floors, well tapered out onto the hull, than cut away sound FRP so that you can replace wood that isn't really part of the strength equation if the glass is adequately strong. Some builders have used foam for stringers, floors, etc, figuring that it's just there to provide a shape to work the glass over. In something like a floor, where you have a lot of local loading from the keel bolts, it might be a good idea to:
    a) remove the keel bolts
    b) Overbore the bolt holes down through the top, stopping at the hull laminate, the overside holes to provide maybe 1/2" inch extra around each bolt. Pour the cavity with epoxy. This will be plenty of compression strength. THEN glass over the floors, with some extra thickness at the top.
    On the other hand, if the bolts aren't deflecting what's there now, maybe just leave it along. If you're building an open boat, you can always do that work some time in the future.
    I wonder if it might not be a good idea to first remove the deck part by unbolting it, and then pressure wash the interior of the hull. If you have much oil contamination, which you shouldn't in an outboard boat, maybe even load the hull on a trailer and take it to someone who can sandblast the interior. You'd be pretty sure of getting good bonds with any glue work to follow.

  9. #44
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Dallas and points north
    Posts
    7,620

    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    Willin woodworks... thanks for the encouragement... I mostly agree with you... and plan on moving forward.

    SEO...

    Thanks for the solid suggestions. . .

    The hull was most likely built in 1966... or thereabouts...
    There is a 6" wide steel plate acting as a backing plate... oriented fore and aft... laying atop the floors with only the bolt heads showing on top of it. After drilling and checking the wood in the floors that I have access to... I was going to remove each bolt, one at a time and screw in some longer pieces of threaded rod to maintain the position of the keel with nuts snugged down temporarily. Blocking would be set up around the outside of the keel to keep it in place and with the ability to raise it with a jack if it breaks loose. Once all the bolts have been removed and replaced with longer threaded rods (with nuts snugged down) I would recheck the blocking on the exterior and then remove the nuts and remove the steel backing plate to have access to all the floors. Obviously the temporary threaded rods are necessary to keep the keel aligned in case it breaks free.

    If the wood in the floors is deteriorated (determined as you say with a drill...then I will replace each floor one at a time... ie., leave the fore and aft threaded rods in place snugged up to their respective floors... and do whatever repairs are required to the inner hull and floors. With the floors in the mid keel replaced, I would replace the fore and aft floors last. I like your idea of pouring epoxy around drilled out bolt holes and it could replace my intended plan in the previous paragraph. I just cannot imagine the wood floors not being dramatically deteriorated because of our climate and the amount of standing water that accumulates every time it rains with the present situation of the decks. Standing water over the past few years has covered the floors every time it rained and it seems they have been submerged in water on and off, (mostly on} for the past few years.

    To continue, this approach would allow me a safe way to check and make any repairs to the keel bedding and floors to positively make for a sound hull/keel system. I'd love to just leave it all alone, but I feel this part is the essence of the craft and needs to be right.

    On the open boat idea... if we keep the cockpit the same as the original with the smaller lower profile cabin... then about 16 inches of the keel floors and backing plate would be under the cockpit floor, so if I plan on addressing the keel I need to do it at the beginning of this project with the hull wide open with temporary spreaders in place (minimal obstruction).

    My most immediate action now is to evaluate the hull deck joint and see what I have there... to see if the flange you described above is there or not and to determine an approach in rebuilding the decks and lower profile cabin. Once she is gutted more or less, then I will deal with the floors and keel before beginning rebuilding the interior.

    Thanks again for the input.

    RodB
    Last edited by RodB; 04-28-2012 at 12:11 PM.

  10. #45
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    South Australia and Tasmania
    Posts
    12,046

    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    I think this is a great idea. Small boats with cabins are often just silly-rarely do more than day sailing-and have tiny cockpits. 23 feet or so as an open daysailer is just perfect-seaworthy, good cockpit space, cheap to build and own. Just opening boatpoint.com.au on my computer now!!

  11. #46
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Belfast and Marshall Cove, Islesboro, Maine
    Posts
    1,929

    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    My guess is that the bolts holding the deck and hull together are set up in the toerail, which was often a source of trouble, and complicated construction. I think that had a lot to do with going to the extruded aluminum perforated toerails that became common in the 1970's. Cheap, available in long lengths, and easy to install. Bolt 'em on and you're done, no need for drilling, countersinking, bunging, etc.
    After reading your description in #44, I wonder if it might not be a better idea to remove the keel. Having the deck edge maybe 30-40 inches off the floor will make a lot of your work easier and more pleasant. If in fact the floors need to be worked on, might at well get it all over with at once. However, I'll repeat the point that the wood inside a properly build hat-section stringer or transverse is just along for the ride. The strength comes from the glass, not the encapsulated wood. If there's not enough glass, put on some more glass, don't fool with the wood. If you're lucky the wood will be so rotten that you can just drop the keel, then stick a pressure washer nozzle into the upper keel bolt hole and blast the rotten wood out through the bottom hole. Then add enough FRP to give you adequate strength, and maybe replace the steel plate with a nice oak or locust timber that you can varnish and admire.
    Last edited by seo; 05-01-2012 at 10:39 AM.

  12. #47
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Dallas and points north
    Posts
    7,620

    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    SEO..

    I should be moving the hull to its conversion/refurbishing site next week but before then I will have some time to do some partial material removal on the rubrail/deck joint to see what I have to deal with for this "unbuilding" process. I'm very interested in your suggestion of reinforcing the FRP on the floors instead of cutting them out and totally replacing them. I guess I had been thinking I should be more concerned that the new floors are completely encapsulated in epoxy and glass and that the area of the inner hull they are bonded to is sound and reinforced a bit with some glass and epoxy. You know its easy to assume you can't "overkill" things like keel bolt systems but way overdoing a project unnecessarily can cost a lot of time.

    Thanks for the suggestions, I'll do some investigative work and let you know what I find.

    RodB

  13. #48
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Narragansett Bay and Approaches
    Posts
    119

    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    I seem to be giving out advice left right and sideways today. Probably means I am avoiding some of the pesky issues in the shop.
    If you think you will need to rebuild the floors, I would drop the keel right away.
    A mission like un-building this boat is best done outside on a windy cold day. Hopefully the neighbors are away, because a dusrting of fiberglass grindings on the Audi has been known to spook the cattle.
    Order the dumpster and park it right next to the hull. Make sure you have plenty of Tyvek, fresh respirator cartridges, good work gloves and some rubber bands to double up on the cuffs and sleeves and go to war. Try to get it all done in one day, because it is an ugly job and the sooner it is done and cleaned up the better.
    I would stock up on sawsall blades and take the hardware off by cutting the deck out. You can unbolt things much easier in the shop.
    One compelling reason to cut down the sheer is that I believe it is the fastest way to get rid of a bunch of crap you will need to remove to get the boat you want. That being said, I don't really know what the sheer assembly of a Tempest looks like. If it is "standard 1966" there is a bunch of silicone like bedding compound and a whole bunch of staples or bolts of some sort. An inspection will tell you almost all you need to know.
    Beyond that, the chain plates are probably glassed into the topsides where the are visibly bolted to the outside.
    I think the appropriate tool is a 7" circular saw with an abrasive carbide blade, like you use for cutting stone. You want to arrange the saw so that it will follow a guide. It is best if it hangs off the top edge of the guide, so that you aren't trying to hold the saw up to the line.
    However it is possible that the laminate isn't all that thick in which case one of the new Dremel saws (as seen on TV) which come with carbide blades would work a treat. I just got one and it really is a useful little bugger.
    I would spring a batten offset above the new sheerline and screw it to the hull. I would then run the saw down the batten.
    You probably don't want top try to cut through the chainplates, so stop on either side and take a sawsall detour around them.
    You should have some shingles to stuff into he kerf to prevent the whole thing from binding, but I would expect that the interior will keep things pretty far apart. Once you have circumcised the hull, you can start throwing the deck away. I think you can cut it into bite sized chunks, break or cut whatever is holding a to be and fire it into the dumpster. One of my favorite wrecking tools is a 22 oz waffle face framing hammer. It might get quite a workout.
    Most of the glass in production boats is way stronger than the glue that hold the parts together. As SEO says this stuff is polyester resin with microbaloons, some fiber and other crap mixed in. One reason why the flanges on glass boats are so large is because this
    stuff sheers pretty easily. So you can use things like masonry chisels and jack hammer bits to clean things away. Sharpen these as needed with a grinder and get on with it. A big slick is a really useful tool, but you have to apologize to all the tool gods afterwards.
    Once you have removed all the big stuff, the next step is probably a Bosh 5" grinder and a box of 36 grit disks. Once again try to get all the way through it so you don't have to do any more.
    Vacuum up the dust and move the hull indoors and you can have a wonderful project.
    SHC

  14. #49
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Dallas and points north
    Posts
    7,620

    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    SHClark...

    Your comments are appreciated and certainly point out the negatives of gutting a hull.... I have added your suggestions to my list... Thanks

    I'll most likely cut the decks etc along fairly close to the hull deck joint so that I will have access to both sides of the joint as I began "unbuilding" this Tempest. That way I can get rid of large chunks of fiberglass (cabin and cockpit) and hopefully have an easier time with the hull deck fasteners,etc. I absolutely am going to try to make the "messy itchy" work go as fast as possible and with all the comments on this thread pointing out how miserable this work segment is... I will be very focused on working smart and efficiently...

    I hope to begin demolition in the next couple of weeks, and plan to move the hull from the boat shop later this week.

    Thanks again,

    RodB

  15. #50
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    22,210

    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    Could you use the rub rail as a guide and do most of it with a router? Seems like that's about as much of the topsides as you'd want to take off.

  16. #51
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Dallas and points north
    Posts
    7,620

    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    Thants not a bad idea, I'd have to see if the sawzall approach would just go faster with the ability to cut deeper no matter the thickness of the laminate... I'll be looking at all that stuff later this week.

    Thanks

    RodB

  17. #52
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Hamilton, NJ
    Posts
    1

    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    Rod, I just discovered this thread and I absolutely love the concept. Tim Lackey's boat looks great and proves the idea is sound. I own an '85 O'day Daysailer which is an Uffa Fox design. Unfortunately it has not been off its trailer since 1993 and my wife has periodically wondered why we still keep it. In fact, I have often wondered this myself and have just been procrastinating on the chore of cleaning it up and finding out what it may be worth. Now I'm thinking that this conversion process might be an option for me as well. I will be following your progress very closely and with great interest. Keep up the good work.
    Last edited by hourman; 05-08-2012 at 03:30 PM. Reason: Spelling

  18. #53
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Dallas and points north
    Posts
    7,620

    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    Hourman,

    You might take a more indepth look at the following chronology of de-construction and new construction which is very clearly illustrated and explained... it gives you an idea of what Mr Lackey did during his project. I think this process can be simplified somewhat... depending on one's budget...

    http://www.lackeysailing.com/daysailor/projects1.htm


    OK, this is a question to those very knowledgable folks on rig movement in general.
    Sailplan question...

    This type of conversion will involve a lower cabin thus a lower mast step position... so with this in mind, I have the following approaches to consier plus any others that may be suggested here.

    Approach #1 to consider: From a discussion with a sailmaker, I was told lowering the rig a few inches would probably make her sail a bit better (with an eye towards "head room" under the boom being satisfactory). This would result in the rig being lowered the amount of the new cabin height difference from the original cabin height as shown in the original photo above... but the forestay, shrouds and the backstay would all have to be shortened enough to compensate for the lower replacement "daysailer type" cabin... ie., the lower mast step due to being mounted atop a lower cabin. Naturally, the foot of the sails would be lower too.

    Approach #2: Another approach would be to modify the base of the mast by fabricating a short rigid extension to make up for the height differential between the original cabin and newer daysailer cabin. This approach would keep the mast step height identical to the original setup and all the stays would remain unmodified.

    I also thought it would be a good idea to fabricate a hinge/pin system for either approach taken to make it easy to lay the mast on the transom and at the mast step to start... then insert a pin through a modified mast step bracket/mast base... and then with shrouds attached ... use the forestay to pull up and step the mast. The older original mast step setup on the Oday Tempest requires the mast to be manually lifted or the use of a crane, etc to step the mast.

    Additionally, the chain plates appear to be imbedded in the laminate on each side of the hull... and if I lower the sheer say a couple of inches (for increased aesthetic appeal), the chainstays will show a little more but their anchor within the laminate should be fine. . I would like to avoid even contemplating re-attacgubg the chain plates in the hull... and I'm assuming except for the metal strip with the double shroud attachment points sticking up a couple inches higher, all should be ok in this scenario.

    IF the sheer is lowered a bit for better aesthetic appeal... is there anything else I need to consider if I leave the chain stays at their original height. IF the chain stays need to be lowered for any reason (looks bad or some technical reason I'm not thinking of) is it simply a matter of digging them out, creating a hollow to fit the deeper imbedding distance from the top edge of the new lower sheer... and then glassing all with plenty of fiberglass and epoxy?

    Thanks for any comments in advance.


    RodB
    Last edited by RodB; 05-08-2012 at 05:31 PM.

  19. #54
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    22,210

    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    Just be sure you don't make the forestay shorter than the luff of your biggest jib.

  20. #55
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Annapolis, Md
    Posts
    258

    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    That's what I was thinking. As long as you are rebuilding the deck, redraw the sheer line with a batten - primarily lower, and then take some offsets and reproduce it on the other side. Sawzall it down and bond on a wood inwale/ sheer clamp.
    I nearly did the same project with a free Columbia Sabre. If I were you, I'd look for one of them. A 32' 5.5 meter sloop with a weird deckhouse. Beautiful long narrow bulletproof solid glass hull. An over the hill Etchells would also be an excellent starter. For your next project....

  21. #56
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    22,210

    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    And after the Soling became an Olympic class, development was so fast that a lot of the old ones were soon obsolete. If you're happy with a hull that's .008 knots slower, that could be a deal. But the one you've got should be fun.

  22. #57
    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    West Boothbay Harbor, Maine
    Posts
    22,929

    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    Free, gutted 30+' hull from Tim Lackey's shop! http://maine.craigslist.org/boa/3002899427.html
    "... and the great shroud of the sea rolled on as it rolled five thousand years ago."

  23. #58
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Dallas and points north
    Posts
    7,620

    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    OK, this is a question to those very knowledgable folks on rig movement in general.
    Sailplan question...

    This type of conversion will involve a lower cabin thus a lower mast step position... so with this in mind, I have the following approaches to consier plus any others that may be suggested here.

    Approach #1 to consider: From a discussion with a sailmaker, I was told lowering the rig a few inches would probably make her sail a bit better (with an eye towards "head room" under the boom being satisfactory). This would result in the rig being lowered the amount of the new cabin height difference from the original cabin height as shown in the original photo above... but the forestay, shrouds and the backstay would all have to be shortened enough to compensate for the lower replacement "daysailer type" cabin... ie., the lower mast step due to being mounted atop a lower cabin. Naturally, the foot of the sails would be lower too.

    Approach #2: Another approach would be to modify the base of the mast by fabricating a short rigid extension to make up for the height differential between the original cabin and newer daysailer cabin. This approach would keep the mast step height identical to the original setup and all the stays would remain unmodified.

    I also thought it would be a good idea to fabricate a hinge/pin system for either approach taken to make it easy to lay the mast on the transom and at the mast step to start... then insert a pin through a modified mast step bracket/mast base... and then with shrouds attached ... use the forestay to pull up and step the mast. The older original mast step setup on the Oday Tempest requires the mast to be manually lifted or the use of a crane, etc to step the mast.

    Additionally, the chain plates appear to be imbedded in the laminate on each side of the hull... and if I lower the sheer say a couple of inches (for increased aesthetic appeal), the chainstays will show a little more but their anchor within the laminate should be fine. . I would like to avoid even contemplating re-attacgubg the chain plates in the hull... and I'm assuming except for the metal strip with the double shroud attachment points sticking up a couple inches higher, all should be ok in this scenario.

    IF the sheer is lowered a bit for better aesthetic appeal... is there anything else I need to consider if I leave the chain stays at their original height. IF the chain stays need to be lowered for any reason (looks bad or some technical reason I'm not thinking of) is it simply a matter of digging them out, creating a hollow to fit the deeper imbedding distance from the top edge of the new lower sheer... and then glassing all with plenty of fiberglass and epoxy?
    My concensus on this seems to be leave the rig position exactly where it is on the original hull. This makes sure the foot of the jib is positioned ok and maintains the head room in the cockpit. I still have to decide whether or not to lower the sheer a bit... but will not even begin to access the visual appeal of the sheer till the decks/cabin, etc are removed so see exactly where I stand.

    I also will at some point fabricate a "mock up" cabin structure for evaluation as Tim Lackey did below...
    http://www.lackeysailing.com/bolero/...r07/112107.htm

    I just need to fabricate a small extension (8-10 inches) and attach it directly to the mast base plus incorporate the hinge pin feature... in this new base and the mast step.

    RodB

  24. #59
    Join Date
    Sep 1999
    Location
    Muncy, PA, USA
    Posts
    1,871

    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    I have been following this thread and came across this: http://rockportmarine.blogspot.com/2...ansformed.html and though it my be relevant and if interest. Rick

  25. #60
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Dallas and points north
    Posts
    7,620

    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    Moving the hull was thursday last... shes in a new home for the next couple of years...





    Heading out to work on her now... demolition to start... then covering her for work...

    RodB

  26. #61
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    22,210

    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    If you lower the freeboard and keep the mast step where it is, will you need a tabernacle?

  27. #62
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    4,723

    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    This outside the box thinking has got me wondering whether one could vacuum bag, plank wide strips of mahogany onto the topsides and finish her bright?

  28. #63
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Dallas and points north
    Posts
    7,620

    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    Johnw...

    Most likely a tabernacle would be needed or... an extension added to the mast base... and how would she look???

    Starting with hardware removal...



    And checking out the hull deck joint to see what we are dealing with for demolition...



    Closer up.... with elements labeled... Note the blue on the hull... this is where I sanded off the decal on the sheer to see exactly what was hull sheer and what was deck edge, etc.





    Now I understand how much of a pain in the ass it can be trying to get a clean sheer edge on the hull and why several knowledgable folks made such comments in the early part of this thread.
    Grinding off the inner fiberglass tape helps... the joint is funny because the edges of the deck and hull are edge joined with a strip of fiberglass applied on the interior surface of both surfaces...



    Well, we at least figured out the hull deck joint and removed all the hardware except for the two jib winches. Here I had cut around the base of the cabin and Stan, my partner in this project, was making the final cut down the middle of the cabin top...



    Continued...

    RodB

  29. #64
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Dallas and points north
    Posts
    7,620

    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    So, here the cut is completed and the cabin falls down in two large pieces...



    And here is the cabin laying upside down on the ground.. note the large arched cabin roof beam that supported the mast step...



    closeup of arched beam that supported the mast tension...



    More to come...

    RodB

  30. #65
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    6

    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    Rod,

    Congrats on getting into the cutting!

    Any thoughts on bracing the beam so that the width doesn't change when you cut the deck off? Necessary or unnecessary?

    What's your plan on protecting your woodwork once that gets started? Nightly cover or a tent,etc?

    Thanks for the pics!

    Wil

  31. #66
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Dallas and points north
    Posts
    7,620

    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    Wil,

    There are unremoved knees keeping the hull in shape but I will install temporary spreaders across the sheer (2x6 or 2x4 with slit in it) before emptying the hull of inner structural elements. I think it is necessary at a point before you begin to get wobble on the sides of the hull at the sheer. I plan on cutting slits in 2x6's to secure the hull sides at the sheer in position as Mr Lackey did...

    As far as protection of the woodwork... well we are contemplating the budget for just that. We are now in the "unbuilding stage" for starters... so we are mainly concerned with demolition and getting the entire hull dried out with the upcoming summer heat etc. ...but... We are contemplating building a 30' X 16 ' pole barn with the poles (6X8" treated beams or free telephone poles) with sissor trusses 12 feet high at the top of the poles.... that allow plenty of head room above the hull (4 poles on each side). We would like to have the two middle trusses able to lift about 4,000 lbs with chain hoists for boat handling in general. We have thought the weight lifting trusses would become part of the boat project...but the structure would be paid for by my partner as it is his land and the structure would be an improvement to said land.

    For now I supplied a 15' X 25' billboard tarp that is indestructable and with a center beam will be a good tent to protect her from the rain.

    I will be posting a few more pics later on today.

    RodB
    Last edited by RodB; 05-14-2012 at 06:34 PM.

  32. #67
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Dallas and points north
    Posts
    7,620

    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    Ok, a few more pics...

    Whoa... no cabin...



    Cabin and port side of deck removed...



    Getting better... Well, working on that hull deck joint will be tedious.



    Looking back the other way with only the cockpit left...



    The anchor locker bulkhead looks sound... may keep it... and it has a nice hatch that already fits the opening shown.





    Con't

    RodB
    Last edited by RodB; 05-14-2012 at 09:22 PM.

  33. #68
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Dallas and points north
    Posts
    7,620

    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    Cabin gone... and she is definitely lighter now... The Cockpit comes next... with lots of support stringers, etc we will have to cut our way into a good spot to get access even with cutting the decks along the toe rail.



    Covered up till next work session.... with a billboard tarp... and a long 2X4 spliced together...




    Separating the hull deck joint...


    I plan per a suggestion to cut 90 degrees to the hull sheer straight down, stopping exactly at the joint interface. these vertical cuts will be a few inches apart. The next step will be to attach a C-clamp to each end of the 6" section and bend all towards the hull centerline. Hopefully, this will allow the joint to come apart while tearing the inner fiberglass tabbing apart too.

    This is roughly what I have seen in this joint...





    Continued later...

    RodB
    Last edited by RodB; 05-15-2012 at 01:35 AM.

  34. #69
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Tuckahoe
    Posts
    7,501

    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    Quote Originally Posted by RodB View Post

    Approach to try to cleanly separate the hull/deck joint
    Rod--

    Why can't you just do this with the sawzall? Maybe a 1/4" or so high then hit with the belt sander to smooth it off if that is what you need? Or a heat gun to separate the joint after you have sawzalled away the most of it. It seems to me that this would be easier and better than trying to pry it up. Am I missing something?

    I agree with everyone else, this is a great idea for a rehab and reconstruction, by the way.

    Edit to add:

    OK, I just went back and read the prior comments regarding removing the deck, and the the concerns about it. Nonetheless, it appears to me, at least, (from a couple of thousand miles away) that you may be better served with power tools rather than trying to pry up the seam an inch or so at a time. Maybe johnw's idea of the router is a good one.
    Regardless, good luck on this innovative and exciting project.
    Last edited by SMARTINSEN; 05-14-2012 at 10:02 PM.
    Steve Martinsen

  35. #70
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Dallas and points north
    Posts
    7,620

    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    Steve... Your suggestion certainly has merit but only leaves the excess material to be ground off... and I will try various approaches. See how the joint has separated fairly cleanly where we bent the deck piece away from it... the fiberglass tabbing comes apart some too when you bend it towards the hull centerline. I'm pretty much up for anything that results in a very clean undamaged sheer surface. I also want to remove as much fiberglass tabbing as possible if it will separate ... rather than having to grind it all away. My mind is open to anything... and I'll try any approach to see if it works well.


    Edited to add: Cutting along the sheer trying to stay just above the actual hull would involve the process of going along the entire hull "carefully" grinding down the little bit left of the decks. This would be messy and dusty... and I may go this route... but.... removing say 6" sections by cutting slots right down to the joint... then bending the 6" section towards the hull center... hinging on the fiberglass tabbing may work out to be cleaner and less dusty. I'll try both and see how it goes. I'm not choosey....just want simple progress towards a clean sheer.

    Later on, when framing the decks, the sheer clamp will be fastened about 3 inches from the sheer and thru bolted. The residual tabbing will be sanded and cleaned up, but hopefully not have to be completely removed to make for a good fit of the sheer clamp.



    Rubrail removed...






    More to come...

    RodB
    Last edited by RodB; 05-15-2012 at 01:16 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •