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Thread: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

  1. #1
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    Default Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    I hope this project passes muster for inclusion on this forum... it is about 95% wood construction....?

    So, I discovered the following website a couple years ago... and kept the concept in the back of my mind... where an appropriate older FG hull was gutted and converted into a Herreshoff era daysailer with a total rebuild.

    http://www.lackeysailing.com/daysailor/

    Heres is good pic of the before and after conversion project of a 1965 Pearson Triton



    Step by step construction well illustrated...
    http://www.lackeysailing.com/daysailor/projects1.htm

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Anyway, this concept has stayed with me and recently I came across an abandoned 30 plus year old boat that needed to be salvaged or cut up... with horrendous warped and unfixable decks... very bad interior, etc... but the hull is sound and the 1200 lb iron keel with bronze bolts seems fine. ... (Oday Tempest).





    So, this is the plan... Gut the hull and rebuild her from scratch converting her to a nice little 23.2 foot daysailer (with a good friend who will be partners in the deal so he will be learning aspects of yacht building and sailing all in one project). Since she is just a tad over 23 feet, the project will not be too burdensome and she can end up being a beautiful little period daysailer. Additionally, Oday's "Tempest's" , were designed by Philip Rhodes during the early stages of manufacturing fiberglass boats, have a very good reputation as a quality sailer with decent construction... http://sailboatdata.com/VIEWRECORD.ASP?CLASS_ID=253 Anyway, except for the demolition stage of the project, it will be 95% wood work, epoxy composite, etc.... overall, a lot of fun in a not too big project spread out over the next couple of years. After gutting the hull, we will install laminated deck beams and the anchor locker, add the smaller cabin and expansive cockpit with mahogany framed seats as seen in the other conversion. Interior will consist of the V berths with a small sink and room for a porta potty. Tentatively, the cabin will have doors as with many of that period, but no sliding hatch. After all, she is just a daysailer.

    Here are some of the type of features I will incorporate into this build... as seen from Mr Lackey's Pearson conversion.



    Another angle...



    Heres my initial concept which illustrates the idea clearly...

    .



    Anyway, I'm looking forward to this fun project... We will take our time and hopefully end up with a sweet little boat.

    RodB
    Last edited by RodB; 01-16-2014 at 12:39 PM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    Good idea. Im not sure if its just picture quality,but in that big picture of the O day, the hull just above the waterling at the bow seems to be showing a bulbous section that looks like either filler or a blown skin? Anyway, it may not be a wooden boat,but you have a lot of woodwork on your hands. Good luck with it. Cheers

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    I think that bulbous section is a lens-flare from the front of the car parked in the front of the image. Here's hoping, anyway?

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    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    Rod, This looks like a great project! I look forward to your excellent (as always) story and photo essay.
    "The desire to build a house is the tired wish of a man content thenceforward with a single anchorage. The desire to build a boat is the desire of youth, unwilling yet to accept the idea of a final resting place." -Arthur Ransome

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    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    I love the concept Rod, 'looking forward to watching progress.
    Larks

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    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

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    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    Very interesting!

    -Thad
    There is a joy in madness, that only mad men know. -Nieztsche

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    I especially like the notion of ditching the OB. A sweep should do it.

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    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    More cockpit and less cabin is often a huge improvement in comfort for when you're actually sailing. I think it sounds great!

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    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    This could make a lot of sense.
    The first generation glass cruising boats were generally by good designers and the hulls and rigs, at least, were soundly done. The current market values are a real opportunity.

    I'm looking forward to seeing this develop.

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    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    Cool. Go for it.

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    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    Tim Lackey is a good guy, well organized and honest. His blog on various projects reveals details about how he works and the hours he spends each day on each project.
    "It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so."

    -Mark Twain

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    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    Thanks guys... it was the Philip Rhodes hull shape that got my attention and as I kept looking at the hull on a cradle, I started envisioning her as an open cockpit daysailer. Researching the "Tempest" gained me knowledge as to her sailing abilities and pedigree. Looks wise I kept seeing this cool little fin keel daysailer... and finally was able to get her for almost nothing. I did pay for a cradle and the nissan outboard, which I may sell if I do away with the outboard well.

    rbgarr, I contacted Tim Lackey and he was quite approachable and offered encouragement. I had some questions answered and also gained some good product recommendations such as the Kiwigrip non-skid and AlexSEal paint ( A company started by some folks originally from Awlgrip).

    [SIZE=2]Heres a good pic from Tim Lackey's building of his first daysailer... showing the basic approach on a gutted faired hull interior.[/SIZE]



    RodB
    Last edited by RodB; 04-22-2012 at 11:51 AM.

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    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    Heres a few detail images of the Tempest as she is now...

    The keel is iron and will be sandblasted, filled and faired, epoxy barrier coated, rebedded, etc.


    Rudder in pretty good shape...but will be evaluated carefully...


    Two good Barient winches to be reused...


    Stem hardware in stainless....


    RodB

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    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    Excellent idea, and I suspect you'll make the boat more useful than the original.

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    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    Comments appreciated Johnw. I figure that removing the entire top half of the boat (fiberglass decks, cabin, cockpit and motor well cover...) is one hell of a weight reduction, and with rebuilding the decks with laminated beams, and glassed ply, we should end up with a substantial weight reduction. I may have to add a bit of interior ballast to get her to float on her lines... and she will be lighter and faster.

    RodB

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    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    I like your style RodB.

    I'm halfway looking for an old derelict O'Day Mariner to spruce up and convert to an unstayed cat-yawl rig.

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    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    I like it. Get the sawzall out and have at it. Let us see her guts
    Tim Marchetti
    CNC Routing & Design
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    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    When RodB takes on a little old project, he ain't kidding.

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    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    Great idea. There are some nice old Rhodes and Alberg designs out there that would make some nice comparable projects. The Rhodes 19 would look real nice with a wood cabin top, maybe teak decks..

    Hhhhhmmmm......do I need another project.........

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    Another thing, many of these older boats have such degraded decks and wood interior that they can be unfixable... but if the hulls are ok, they ceretainly can be rebuildable. The decks on this tempest are warped so badly that they cannot be fixed... so only rebuilding the decks from scratch is an option IMHO. Boats in this kind of condtion are certainly not easy to sell to anyone so they can be had for almost nothing. The older boats that are in better shape still can become "butterflys" with a rebuild if one has the patience and energy and vision to complete such a project. Except for the demolition part of the project... I think this will be fun. http://www.lackeysailing.com/daysail...eckremoval.htm ... as you can see here as Tim Lackey goes thru the "unbuild" process.

    Heres a link to the entire process chronologically... http://www.lackeysailing.com/daysailor/projects1.htm


    I do think the rebuild part of this can and will be fun for me... especially working out the details of the cockpit, cabin and deck design. I'm also pleased that this is only a simple 23.2 foot design so the amount of work is quite a bit more reasonable compared to the Pearson Triton, Tim Lackey converted. This boat is about the size of the Alberg Kittiwake... so not such a large project. This will be an enjoyable project especially with a good friend as a partner in expenses and labor. I only have so much time and this will be a good way to produce a sweet little daysailer in my spare time... that we can put on a local Lake for a reasonable slip fee.

    We will begin with indexing the rig with measurements using a cross laser to have exact three dimensional mesurements in duplicating the rig later on. All necessary dimensions of any importance will be taken before we start the "unbuild" process. Demolition begins in the next couple of weeks. I am in the process of getting the plans for this boat if they are available at Mystic (Philip Rhodes Collection).... but if not, we will make do with our measurements. I should have the title transfer in the near future and then its green light all the way.

    A few more detail shots...

    Weird decal on sheer... and the rubrail/toerail ???


    Wider shot.. shows the delapidation.... for over 30 years old, its surprising how some of the fiberglass has held up.


    I will place rig location off of the mast base location in height differential and X, Y dimensions on the hull deck surface. I will measure the distance from the top of the keel to the underside of the cabin roof immediately under the mast step.


    Totally deteriorated decks...


    We will get rid of most of this...


    We will likely get rid of the outboard well... or not... perhaps a sweep will be in my future.


    Demolition to start soon...

    As you start such a project a line must be drawn as to how far you go... do you replace the mast with a wooden mast or just refurbish/paint the original ... do you change the hardware to bronze or go all with stainless and try to spruce up the old hardware. As the conversion progresses these are some of the decisions to be made. If the entire conversion is made staying true to the concept, does that make her more valuable down the road. Tim Lackey sold his converted Triton for somewhere around $80K... but he had built a completely new boat on a sound hull. I like that idea, I have to admit, but cost has to enter into this too. Perhaps some hybrid concept can look great without remaking or replacing the hardware. The existing hardware certainly is recognizable as original... lots to think about.



    RodB
    Last edited by RodB; 04-19-2012 at 10:41 AM.

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    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    very cool, what a great idea! I wish I had done this with my old Irwin 25.5...

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    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    The first step before demolition was to get the standing rig measurements for the main element's locations. We used a cross laser level to get the differential heights of the shrouds, forestay and backstays and mast step ... and measured the height of the mast step from a permanent point on the keel. Many measurements were recorded on the general layout of the decks, cockpit, etc. for later reference.

    Note: I 'm certain the keel bolts will need to be removed and the floors supporting the keel will have to be replaced, the keel rebedded etc. That and gutting the hull are the worst parts of the deal, but I'm sure I'll enjoy the rest.



    RodB
    Last edited by RodB; 04-22-2012 at 03:41 AM.

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    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    Fantastic, I'm really really looking forward to this build!

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    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    Johnno,

    Your project that I have been following has as clean and precise of an execution as any project I have seen on this forum... very well done... looking forward to sailing photos and reviews.

    I'm also looking forward to the rebuilding on my project... and getting the demolition part done...

    RodB

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    Once you get to the part where you're working with wood, it will be a pleasure.

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    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    Thanks john, I appreciate the encouragement.

    RodB

  27. #27

    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    very cool - really looking forward to watching this build....

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    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    pretty cool

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    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    I think the demolition should go fairly quickly. Most of those era boats are two big pieces; the hull and the deck/cockpit bolted together at the sheer. I would bet that under that vinyl rubbing strip is a clearly defined joint between the two. Some good bimetal sawzall blades, serious respirators and good gloves and the top should pop right off.

    I'm really looking forward to seeing this project progress. If it works as well as I think I might try it. There are plenty of these FG hulks along the fence at the two big marinas around here. I'm guessing they are there for the taking.

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    I'm familiar with the Tempest, and always thought the sheer was too flat. Maybe you can adjust this in the process.
    I have long wanted to take a skill saw to the topsides of half the boats designed after the 1960s and put a little life into their sheer lines and lowered their center of gravity.
    The midships height of the Triton makes sense when she is a cruiser, but it looks boxy when the house is replaced by the cuddy. Without the headroom mandate, you can sweeten things up quite a bit, reduce windage and weight as well as enhancing the looks.
    Take a good look at a Herreshoff Fish class to get an idea of how much you can lose. Then run some numbers.....
    SHC

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    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    Willin Woodworks... The most difficult part will be the same items faced by Tim Lackey in the Pearson Triton conversion... the stringers glassed into the hull and in my case also replacing the floors that support the keel. I can't imagine that the polyester wrapped and tabbed wooden floors in the Tempest are not compromised after more than 30 years especially with the pourous decks and water thats been standing in her these past years.

    So, when you look at a 20 foot stringer wrapped in glass along the hull side, you gotta know cutting all that glass to remove the old wood and then grind down all the old fiberglass fair... won't be easy. Tim Lackey said in his "unbuilding section" of his project, he couldn't touch the old fiberglass tabbing with 16 grit discs and a disc sander... but had to resort to cut off tools to actually achieve any progress on 3/4" tabbing. He apend a lot of time getting the Triton interior hull to a sanded and faired condtion before starting the "building process".

    The tempest has a couple of stringers running along the hull ... one on each side which I think will have to be replaced. I'll drill/core sample by feel and check all to be sure.


    I'm familiar with the Tempest, and always thought the sheer was too flat. Maybe you can adjust this in the process.
    I have long wanted to take a skill saw to the topsides of half the boats designed after the 1960s and put a little life into their sheer lines and lowered their center of gravity.
    The midships height of the Triton makes sense when she is a cruiser, but it looks boxy when the house is replaced by the cuddy. Without the headroom mandate, you can sweeten things up quite a bit, reduce windage and weight as well as enhancing the looks.
    Take a good look at a Herreshoff Fish class to get an idea of how much you can lose. Then run some numbers.....
    SHC
    I have specifically thought of the sheer and have intended to lower it some to achieve even better looks. I thought the Triton could have looked better with the sheer enhanced a bit. I'l definitely look at the Fish Class and others to get an aesthetically and practically pleasing approach on this Tempest. Thanks for the comments...


    Another point here is whether to actually build a "new boat" compared to just fixing up an old one. I'm interested in the project as shown in the links above where Tim Lackey actually built a totally new boat ( the Triton and the Shields), which made his work a much better investment as anyone who later was considering buying such a conversion... would know there were no problematic areas "period". Perhaps the dollars you spend to do a "complete job" will more than be worth the "increased value" you get from the finished package.

    I lean towards the "new boat" approach rather than make any compromises just to get this old hull sailing. I want to gut her completely and rebuild the interior as his site shows... and then she will be sound and useful and beautiful for another 30+ years.

    RodB
    Last edited by RodB; 04-23-2012 at 04:37 PM.

  32. #32
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    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    I'm more conservative about rebuilding into a daysailer like this than you are. I'd look into sawing off the cabin at deck level first, remove some of the interior for a more open space, leaving the deck, bulkheads supporting it and cockpit. The I'd sail it as is for a while to see what I think of the more open concept. Stepping the mast would be a challenge since it's mounted on the cabin top in the current configuration. I'd have to think that through. I wonder if the deck as is now lands and is glassed to tabbed-in ledge as solidly as the stringers are( as you describe above). If so rebullding that for an altered sheerline is another challenge. Good luck with it all.
    "It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so."

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  33. #33
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    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    rbgarr....

    You are right there are some issues to be considered and figured out with a conversion.

    My first thoughts were... to just get rid of the cabin, gut her completely as Tim did to his Triton... , and make her into a large mostly open cockpit boat with just the foredeck and a cool long cockpit combing meeting just aft of the mast step. I also did not want to have to change the rig if at all possible... but had to consider: The proposed cabin would lower the height of the mast step a few inches.... no cabin would drop the mast step even more. Stepping the mast would have to be addressed as these older designs did not have a hinged mast base.

    Obviously there are some issues to think about here but except for developing a rigid extension base for the mast, I fail to see any significant problems with just rebuilding the interior, the decks and cockpit... as done by Tim Lackey in his Pearson Triton project linked above. One thought.. the sail plan could be reduced a little as the total weight of the hull will be decreased significantly, and that could be just taking some sail off of the foot of the sail to stay closer to the original head room allowed with the stock cockpit and boom height. You might have noticed I opted for a Herreshoff type cabin without a sliding hatch... for simplicity and after all, it will be just a daysailer... and a couple of V berths and a porta potty space... along with hinged vertical doors would work out fine.

    The decks are delaminated badly and there are also some rough holes ... because of the warping and undulations, the decks are unfixable and I'd say borderline dangerous to keep on the boat if the cabin was removed. The cabin has an arc beam that supports the mast step and ties in to both sides of the cabin and the side decks ..., all which could be recreated for a lower profile cabin... or a compression post could work to if not too much of an obstruction below decks.

    The material forming the hull/deck joint seems to have plenty of mass, but the decks are degraded completely through in too many places right up to the hull/deck joint. The cabin, overall, is pretty decent structurally. The main reason I was attracted to the project was that it seemed the only option was to salvage the hull (with iron keel)... and that the hull shape had some definite possibilities. I also knew she would lose a significant amount of weight after removing the entire top fiberglass mold material (decks, cabin, cockpit) and that she would be lighter and faster with the stock sail plan.

    Nothing is set in stone yet, but whatever we decide, initially she needs to be gutted completely and then with the interior cleaned up, faired and sanded and made ready to rebuild the interior and decks. From what I can see so far, it looks like once the decks are removed the sides of the hull will be straight sided that should be quite easy rebuild the decks as Mr Lackey did. I'd also consider tweaking the sheer line... (the chain plates are all glassed in ...so not a real simple change). Naturally the hull would have to be fitted with a few temporary spreaders to keep the hull shape at the sheer... until the deck framing had significantly progressed.

    Comments and suggestions welcomed.

    RodB
    Last edited by RodB; 04-23-2012 at 09:57 PM.

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    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    If anyone is inspired by this project, I might have a handle on a 23' S&S designed keel CB hull, I think they were called "greenwich 23," or something like that. Nice little boat. Hull only, although the deck part is there if you want it. Rig's there as well. It's in Vermont.
    email me at:
    seo@midcoast.com
    Did I say that it was free?

  35. #35
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    Default Re: Daysailer conversion... Interesting project mostly woodenboat.... part not

    Colorized with gradations looks a little better...for a concept drawing.



    RodB

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