Remington 870 "Unsafe"?

[Nicholas Scheuer]

I considered "Another Gun Thread" for a title, but thought the one used above more arresting, the 870 shotgun arguably being the most respected mass-produced shotgun in history.

Anyway, Brian Williams' Rock Center last evening and they had a major segment devoted to a problem with Remington shotguns and rifles (any firearm incorporating their "Common Fire Control" trigger/hammer assembly) discharging with the safety "ON" merely by having the butt bump something hard.

I was seriously in the market for an 870 several years ago. Glad I got a Browning BPS instead, unless somebody knows about a problem with them?

[BrianW]

It's a big controversy with their rifles. I was unaware of any problems with their shot guns.

What I have read, didn't have to do with discharging when bumped. It was a problem with discharging when the safety selector was moved from "safe" to "fire". While that might not sound bad (if your taking the safety off, presumably your going to shoot) the issue is on early Remington M700 rifles you had to move the selector to the fire position to unlock the bolt, even if you just want to remove a cartridge from the chamber. So lots of hunters returning from the field would go to unchamber a round from their rifle, and have the rifle fire as they moved the safety selector from safe to fire, in order to actuate the bolt.

The Remington purists will scream foul every time someone posts another AD (accidental discharge) on the internet, and have come up with some pretty good excuses to defend their favorite rifle.

On later model M700 rifles, they changed it so the bolt can be actuated with the safety engaged. But, Remington would not change the design of their much vaulted trigger, in fear of admitting there was a problem.

Me, I think the trigger is screwed up. I've hunted with Remington rifles, enjoy their accuracy, appreciate they are the chosen "sniper rifle" of the Army and the Marines for decades, and even own a couple. But I don't trust them. Not like I do a Winchester Model 70.

[Paul Pless]

It's a big controversy with their rifles. I was unaware of any problems with their shot guns.

Has there ever been any evidence put forth from the military regarding problems with their trigger/safety group?

[skuthorp]

"The Remington purists will scream foul every time someone posts another AD (accidental discharge) on the internet, and have come up with some pretty good excuses to defend their favorite rifle."
Oh the irony...............

[Donn]

Remington's pre-buttal:

"In yet another unwarranted attack on Remington and the firearms industry, NBC will soon air a report about Remington Arms and several of Remington's most popular shotguns and rifles. In this upcoming story, NBC is using the same producer and reporter who, in 2010, attempted to denigrate our Company and the Model 700, the most popular bolt-action rifle in the world. Now they are at it again, only this time they have set their sights on the most popular shotguns in the world, the Remington Models 870 and 1100. First, they went after 5 million lawfully owned firearms. Now, they're going after over 20 million firearms.

"Gun owners and shooters are all too familiar with NBC's long history of anti-gun reporting. The Network proved its proclivity for sensational reporting and its aggressive anti-gun agenda in its baseless attack on the Model 700, and its suggestion that the Consumer Product Safety Commission should control the firearms industry.
The previous CNBC story was based on rumors, unsubstantiated claims and misstatements, rather than factual evidence of the reliability and performance of the more than five million Model 700 bolt-action rifles produced over 50 years. The misinformation and sensational allegations were clearly addressed by Remington in a point-by-point rebuttal, to which CNBC never bothered to respond. We expect the same disregard for the facts and anti-gun sentiment to be repeated in the upcoming NBC story.

"Unfortunately, NBC continues to push the agendas of plaintiffs' attorneys and anti-gunners, relying on their clearly biased assertions, and upon paid so-called "experts." These "experts" have been repeatedly hired by plaintiff's attorneys to testify against Remington, as well as at least 16 other firearms manufacturers, to suit their own personal and economic agendas.
Model 870 and 1100 owners know the truth. These shotguns are used extensively under the most demanding conditions. Tens of billions of rounds have been fired through these firearms, which are valued for their performance and durability by tens of millions of hunters, shooters, law enforcement and military personnel who have relied on these firearms for over 60 years. The experiences of these users stand as a sophisticated and time-tested proof, to the quality and reliability of these firearm platforms. The facts show that the Model 870 and 1100 are two of the most reliable shotguns ever produced. Despite the efforts of plaintiffs' attorneys to drum up business against these popular firearms, no litigation is pending against the trigger mechanisms of these firearms and only one such lawsuit has been filed in the last seven years.

"When contacted by NBC about this story, Remington provided the Network with a vast amount of information about the true facts of these iconic American firearms and the so-called "expert" witnesses employed by plaintiffs' attorneys. Given NBC's long standing relationship with plaintiffs' attorneys and their paid experts, Remington is not surprised that NBC has once again chosen to ignore the facts to push the Network's anti-gun agenda. In light of NBC's inherent bias, Remington declined to participate in an on-camera interview, which would have exposed Remington to NBC's questionable editing processes.

"No biased and sensational media story can diminish the pride that Remington employees take in our Company and its products. It is disappointing that NBC continues to choose sensationalism over American industry. Remington's parent company employs nearly 3,000 proud Americans across 11 states, producing firearms and ammunition, 99% of which are Made in the USA. Hunters and shooters pump approximately $25 billion annually into the U.S. economy, supporting close to 600,000 domestic jobs, in addition to contributing approximately $2.9 billion annually directly to wildlife and habitat conservation.

"These agenda-driven, sensational stories should be a warning to all lawful and responsible hunters, shooters and gunowners to remain vigilant and steadfast in defense of our Second Amendment freedoms and the right of all Americans to safely hunt, shoot and protect ourselves and our families."

I've personally fired tens of thousands of rounds through a series of 870s, under every condition you can imagine. The gun has never failed to perform as expected.

[Iceboy]

Same here. Just for kicks I'll take one of mine out this weekend and abuse it some. I have one that has been through some hard knocks so I won't mind beating it a little. I do want to point out in the interest of safety I won't be dropping a loaded firearm on it's butt. I will however point it safely down range and whack it in several places with a hard rubber mallet. If the thread is still alive I'll post my results.

Remington's pre-buttal:



I've personally fired tens of thousands of rounds through a series of 870s, under every condition you can imagine. The gun has never failed to perform as expected.

[Paul Girouard]

[QUOTE=Nicholas Scheuer;3376032

Glad I got a Browning BPS instead, unless somebody knows about a problem with them?

[/QUOTE]

It's a gun , therefore it's a problem , ask any progressive.

[Flying Orca]

I love the 870 and never heard of a problem with it. I think a safety that accidentally discharges the round in the chamber when switched off is pretty daft, but then I think keeping a round in the chamber is pretty daft, too.

Oh, and Paul? I'm a progressive.

[fishrswim]

I'm also a progressive. I own six firearms of various types and have a carry permit. BTW my wife is also a progressive and she also has a carry permit and a very nice Sig.

[Gerarddm]

Posts 6 and 7 nicely slap down the absurdity of post 5, so that's that.

[Nicholas Scheuer]

Just for focus, I'll point out (Liberal that I am) that this thread is neither about "gun politics", nor "anti-gun politics". It is about the "personal safety" of the firarm safety mechanism manufactured by one of the USA's most respected makers of firearms of all types.

Further, it is about this Manufacturer's apparent unwillingness to "man-up" to a problem gun owners have experienced with perhaps the most widely respected shotgun and rifle of recent history, namely the 870 Wingmaster and the M700 rifle, to name just two Remington products incorporating the Common Fire Control" assembly.

Rock Center also interviewed a victim who severely wounded himself with a semi-automatic shotgun.

[Paul Pless]

Rock Center also interviewed a victim who severely wounded himself with a semi-automatic shotgun.

Details? What firearms safety rules was he breaking (if any) when the injury occurred?

[Tall Boy]

Just for focus, I'll point out (Liberal that I am) that this thread is neither about "gun politics", nor "anti-gun politics". It is about the "personal safety" of the firarm safety mechanism manufactured by one of the USA's most respected makers of firearms of all types.

Further, it is about this Manufacturer's apparent unwillingness to "man-up" to a problem gun owners have experienced with perhaps the most widely respected shotgun and rifle of recent history, namely the 870 Wingmaster and the M700 rifle, to name just two Remington products incorporating the Common Fire Control" assembly.

Rock Center also interviewed a victim who severely wounded himself with a semi-automatic shotgun.

I quess you never heard the one about the guy that shot himself in the chest 8 times with a single shot bolt action 22.....they ruled it a suicide

[Flying Orca]

I quess you never heard the one about the guy that shot himself in the chest 8 times with a single shot bolt action 22.....they ruled it a suicide

Now that's determination.

[Tall Boy]

Now that's determination.

Actualy, I lied....it was only 5 shots........

[Flying Orca]

Actualy, I lied....it was only 5 shots........

Oh, well that's different, then.

[Phillip Allen]

Now that's determination.

musta been the blood on the bolt that tipped them

[bobbys]

Just for focus, I'll point out (Liberal that I am) that this thread is neither about "gun politics", nor "anti-gun politics". It is about the "personal safety" of the firarm safety mechanism manufactured by one of the USA's most respected makers of firearms of all types.

Further, it is about this Manufacturer's apparent unwillingness to "man-up" to a problem gun owners have experienced with perhaps the most widely respected shotgun and rifle of recent history, namely the 870 Wingmaster and the M700 rifle, to name just two Remington products incorporating the Common Fire Control" assembly.

Rock Center also interviewed a victim who severely wounded himself with a semi-automatic shotgun.

.

Just how many gun reviews does this Rock center do?.

Is this a Outdoor show with fishing and hunting stories?

[Mad Scientist]

...Rock Center also interviewed a victim who severely wounded himself with a semi-automatic shotgun.

Typical 'Advocacy Journalism', as opposed to Investigative Journalism. The latter tries to provide a balanced picture; the former attempts to proke an emotional response to a 'sob story', in an attempt to create an outraged response to an isolated incident. Happens all the time around here, usually in an attempt to have 'the government' take action.

Let's be serious, folks - this is (mostly) a U.S. story, and, if there really was a legitimate complant, there would be a huge Class Action Lawsuit.

[Phillip Allen]

why would ANYONE ever trust a cocked firearm?

I'll grant that most of us have not delved into the works of firearms (gunsmith-like) but some of us have. The amount of surface contact at the sear is VERY small... looking for anology... perhaps only one lug nut holding a wheel on your automobile... why would ANYONE ever trust that? I certainly do not

[Flying Orca]

why would ANYONE ever trust a cocked firearm?

I'll grant that most of us have not delved into the works of firearms (gunsmith-like) but some of us have. The amount of surface contact at the sear is VERY small... looking for anology... perhaps only one lug nut holding a wheel on your automobile... why would ANYONE ever trust that? I certainly do not

The planets must be doing something weird, I completely agree with Phillip and have nothing to add.

[bobbys]

I only have had Ithaca model 37, And Winchester model 70s.

When i came out west my duck hunting friends all had 870s and joked about my Ithaca but they soon liked it but of course it was hard for them to say.

I liked their 870s a lot but liked the light weight of the Ithaca

Later on as my son grew up i bought him a 870 express that was terrible , It jammed a lot.

It was a cheaper version of the 870.

Now he is a fisherman he bought a Bennilie but not after dropping my Ithaca off a cliff while chuker hunting.

Be that as it may whatever Don sez is the final word on shotguns.

[switters]

I only have had Ithaca model 37, And Winchester model 70s.

When i came out west my duck hunting friends all had 870s and joked about my Ithaca but they soon liked it but of course it was hard for them to say.

I liked their 870s a lot but liked the light weight of the Ithaca

Later on as my son grew up i bought him a 870 express that was terrible , It jammed a lot.

It was a cheaper version of the 870.

Now he is a fisherman he bought a Bennilie but not after dropping my Ithaca off a cliff while chuker hunting.

Be that as it may whatever Don sez is the final word on shotguns.

gun threads were born to be derailed, so here we go. If you still have the 870 this may be useful.

870 express are very particular about the type of shell. the good news is that it seems cheaper is better, specifically winchester shells. When I ran out of fioche and went back to winchester the jamming stopped.

[Nicholas Scheuer]

Safety Rules violated? First, as mentioned in the story, the muzzle was not pointed in a safe direction. Second, there was a round in the chamber (he had finished hunting and had returned to his automobile, and passers-by saw him on the ground, wounded, and called EMT's). He had leaned his shotgun against something, whereupon it fell down, and discharged with the safety "ON".

[Canoeyawl]

Safety Rules violated? First, as mentioned in the story, the muzzle was not pointed in a safe direction. Second, there was a round in the chamber (he had finished hunting and had returned to his automobile, and passers-by saw him on the ground, wounded, and called EMT's). He had leaned his shotgun against something, whereupon it fell down, and discharged with the safety "ON".

An old friend killed their black lab that exact same way.
A loaded shot-gun leaned up against the cabin bulkhead, the boat took a wave. Both sad and stupid. They were shooting seals and I have a strong opinion about that, but I do regret the agony of the unwitting dog.
There are lots of lessons out there these days for those that take firearms for something they are not.
They are purpose-built, and they do a good job.

[Paul Pless]

They are purpose-built, and they do a good job.

+ 1

[PhaseLockedLoop]

He had leaned his shotgun against something, whereupon it fell down, and discharged with the safety "ON".

Well, that's what he said.

[Henning 4148]

Not a lot of gun experience with me - apart from the 15 months in the German Army. Everyone in the German Army at that time knew, that an Uzzi could go of if loaded, cocked and bashed about, even with the safety switched to "off". So, compared to an Uzzi, this here sounds pretty safe. At the time, the routine about the Uzzi was, to only cock the thing, if you really meant to shoot.

[Dave Wright]

Butters and Belk might catch your interest:

http://www.google.com/patents/US6119387

It reminds me a bit about the fellow who is pushing his "SawStop" device for table saws.

[Dave Wright]

The lawyers have been there:

http://www.drinnonlaw.com/Texas-Defe...mington700.php