The small trimaran thread

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  • upchurchmr
    Senior Member
    • May 2009
    • 2518

    #61
    Re: The small trimaran thread

    Well Chris, we were talking about the comparison between a tri and a well known cat with proved performance trying to understand the benefits and strengths of the two boats.

    So ignoring the rhetoric about ADVENTURE did you have something to say about the two boats? I agree the performance on the course should count, but you can't measure performance in elapsed time when one starts a day late.

    This wasn't a question about the EC, it was about two boats. Unfair as the comparison might be given the difference in preparation and crew.

    Much as I agree about the value of heavy weather in separating the quality of the boats (and seamen/ persons), you commented on the wrong issue. There are plenty of EC threads.
    Last edited by upchurchmr; 04-18-2012, 12:35 PM.

    Comment

    • Tim Eley
      Junior Member
      • Apr 2012
      • 4

      #62
      Re: The small trimaran thread

      Dave, What about the Drifter 16 ? For what you are looking for it fits the bill.



      I did not have the building skills or budget for it but did have an old Laser rig so I built my E15. These hull shapes, with a lee-board seem to go to windward very well.

      Comment

      • Chris Ostlind
        North of the Pier
        • Jun 2002
        • 730

        #63
        Re: The small trimaran thread

        Originally posted by upchurchmr
        ... you commented on the wrong issue. There are plenty of EC threads.
        Sorry, but I only worked off of your comments from several posts earlier, as well as the quoted text, where it was you who mentioned the EC. As they say in court my friend, you opened the door. Just because you don't like what came through after you did so, doesn't remove its value. Go take a scan back through the posts and see how many references you, personally, have made to the EC. That should get you rolling on the right track here. So, unless you are willing to chastise yourself and then have the WB folks remove all mention of the EC in the thread, it looks like it's here to stay.

        As to comparing a day late effort to a pair of guys who played by the rules as entitled... One can make any comparison one wishes. It was the crew of the tri who decided to start a day late. Nobody forced them to do so. Others went as planned and scheduled, so it's on the tri crew alone for how and when they chose to start. I am curious, though, as to why you have become so rah-rah defensive about the trimaran team. Whining about their "late to the game" effort and then adding insult to the Tornado crew for, once again, having the best boat and team on the water is goofy. When the tri gets to the start on time, they are ready for a proper go at the Tornado team, then you can make the comparisons without the excuses. Right now, it sounds like sour grapes and is functionally irrelevant.

        Come on, Bubba, it's over and it isn't going to change anything. Man-up, get prepared for next year (if one cares to do it again) and leave the start beach on time with a functional boat that has no loose ends. Geez, is it really that difficult?

        Comment

        • Dan St Gean
          Senior Member
          • Nov 2004
          • 1138

          #64
          Re: The small trimaran thread

          Originally posted by upchurchmr
          Well Chris, we were talking about the comparison between a tri and a well known cat with proved performance trying to understand the benefits and strengths of the two boats.

          So ignoring the rhetoric about ADVENTURE did you have something to say about the two boats? I agree the performance on the course should count, but you can't measure performance in elapsed time when one starts a day late.

          This wasn't a question about the EC, it was about two boats. Unfair as the comparison might be given the difference in preparation and crew.

          Much as I agree about the value of heavy weather in separating the quality of the boats (and seamen/ persons), you commented on the wrong issue. There are plenty of EC threads.
          The Tornado is a known commodity. This new tri is not. It's fast...but how fast? Fast enough to win the UFC-but the Tornado or their solid crew were in that race. Just because they were on the same course does not mean they were in the same race either. Lumpy and Macho man or previous crew Bumpy hammered down to Largo nonstop in previous years. Could one do that 900 miles of sailing instead of roughly 300? Does a quarter miler run a faster split than a marathoner? Thus the use of the race itself is a fun way to look at their relative performance potential. We know what the Tornado can do--40 years of development have seen to that. An untested tri fresh off the interupted build is not a known item--that's why I wondered aloud what a comparison might look like. Every boat has it's strengths and weaknesses. Some are good around the cans, some in adventure races, & some like Chris' XCR are good as a canoe, outrigger and tri. But is the XCR as fast as a Tornado? No. Can the Tornado go through the nightmare? No...horses for courses.

          That said, I wonder how the Mosquito would do in the same race. I gotta imagine the T would have the edge in shorter courses due to it's lighter weight. With no provision to sleep aboard a T, I beleive the longer course would start to favor the Mosquito--if it had enough boatspeed to not allow shore rest for it's rival. Anyhow it's just online questions unless the Mosquito enters an EC next year after sorting their early teething issues. I remember Randy's Sizzors had similar issues in it's first two attempts--and then went on to win in record time in it's third go. Tuning sure has advantages! Even Ben and Emily tuned up the XCR from a DNF last year into a very solid performance this year and that included a new rig if I remember correctly.

          Dan

          Comment

          • Dan St Gean
            Senior Member
            • Nov 2004
            • 1138

            #65
            Re: The small trimaran thread

            Comment

            • Dan St Gean
              Senior Member
              • Nov 2004
              • 1138

              #66
              Re: The small trimaran thread

              Not wood but it could be...


              Similar in some respects to Mosquito btw.

              Comment

              • Dan St Gean
                Senior Member
                • Nov 2004
                • 1138

                #67
                Re: The small trimaran thread


                Flash harry foiler.
                Dan

                Comment

                • Dan St Gean
                  Senior Member
                  • Nov 2004
                  • 1138

                  #68
                  Re: The small trimaran thread

                  Chris O's Europa design


                  Could we speculate how it would do against a Tornado?

                  Comment

                  • John Bell
                    CS-17 "BANDALOOP"
                    • Mar 2000
                    • 3943

                    #69
                    Re: The small trimaran thread

                    Originally posted by upchurchmr
                    Both the CLC SailRig and the Little Wing seem very interesting from a good sailing, minimalist boat. I did read that at a recent EC a Little Wing owner went out for a test sail in some waves came back saying he was underwater a lot of the time and packed up and went home.
                    I was at the start on the day that occurred in 2010. The boat in question was an early production boat. The skipper sailed it over from the boat ramp on the back side of Mullet Key and in his enthusiasm with his new boat he pressed it too hard and cracked one of the crossbeam. He would up going home only because the boat was broken.
                    Last edited by John Bell; 04-18-2012, 02:58 PM.

                    Comment

                    • John Bell
                      CS-17 "BANDALOOP"
                      • Mar 2000
                      • 3943

                      #70
                      Re: The small trimaran thread

                      Originally posted by Dan St Gean
                      I think the watertriber bought it for 4k and then sold it after the race. A pretty good deal IMHO. The bigger rig made lots of sense to me. Dan
                      The original rig on the Tridarka was reported not go to weather well. They guy who bought it from Chief put a beachcat rig on it, looked like it was off a Hobie 18. I talked Izatarock who sailed it to a good finish in 2011 about why he sold it during this year's EC. He said the Tridarka was a lot of boat for a solo sailor to handle. It was fast and powerful, but heavy and kind of unwieldy to deal with on land. While it was great for events like the EC, it was a lot of trouble to set up for daysailing so he let it go.

                      The same guy attempted the EC solo in a Hobie 16 this year. After a capsize in Sarasota Bay, he dropped out. Id rather do it in a Tridarka, myself!

                      Comment

                      • Chris Ostlind
                        North of the Pier
                        • Jun 2002
                        • 730

                        #71
                        Re: The small trimaran thread

                        Originally posted by Dan St Gean
                        Chris O's Europa design


                        Could we speculate how it would do against a Tornado?

                        OK, so let's speculate, seeing as the E20 has not been built as of yet. Here's the link to the article describing the boat in detail, complete with some links to vertical strip foam building techniques to show that the process is not that difficult for a guy who has already built a boat, or two. http://www.lunadadesign.com/europa-2...-trimaran.html

                        Built in carbon cloth, the E20 could be ready to sail in the low 400 pound region for all-up weight. It would be less expensive in glass laminates with a weight offset as the major adjustment to the final product. I expect the boat to be powerful upwind and especially quick when making use of offwind angles. Because of its enhanced righting moment due to beam width over a trailered beach cat, it should carry sail further into the upper wind regions than a cat, giving it significant advantages. The boat has a comfortable cockpit area that could be useful for crew rest. To that end, I would suggest a collapsible dodger just aft of the mast with tapering side curtains to keep the resting crew dry and warm. I'd further equip the boat with ultra light weight seats on the aft end of each side trampoline surface that have fold-down backs to keep the wind drag to a minimum. These seats would give the skipper more comfort and allow for a bent leg stance while driving for longer periods.

                        The amas are modeled after those seen on the Maxi-tri, Sodeb'O. They have wave piercing bows only at the forward ends. This allows the boat to be driven more aggressively with reduced hobby-horse pitching moments. The volume of the bows has been flipped top for bottom to maintain the forward reserve buoyancy needed to resist pitch-poling moments. Immediately aft of the wave piercing feature, the amas open up to provide full, offshore style reserve buoyancy at 200% of displacement. Experienced sailors will be able to push the boat quite hard without fear of tossing it over.

                        I would not suggest that owners of this type of boat put it to the crucible of trying to push hard in any race before they know the machine. Instead, I would suggest that the crew embark on a regimen of regular sailing sessions in a wide variety of weather and sea states so that the sweet spot can be fully understood before pressing the boat in a competitive environment. For example... What does it take to fly the main hull so that it is just kissing the surface and how easily can it be held in that state without the danger of capsize. At that point, I think that a skilled crew that has gotten to know the boat and its quirks, will be able to put this ride up at the front of the EC, doing battle with Sew Sew and Lumpy.

                        Paddling this machine would be about as easy as it is to paddle the Tornado, which isn't very easy compared to other boats where the paddling function has been included as a major component of the design strategy. If the wind is cooking, then this boat should be a serious threat, If the wind dies, then it's going to be one ugly slog to Key Largo. Dead air could provide for the interesting scenario of all the sail rigged Krugers, Hobie AI's and the XCR's going right past the likes of the Tornado, Randy Smyth's tri and the Europa 20. There might be a bit of salvation if the side tramps could be rolled out of the way, the rig struck and the crew gets to hammering with paddles on each side of the main hull. Other than that, it's all about the wind for boats of this type.

                        Comment

                        • upchurchmr
                          Senior Member
                          • May 2009
                          • 2518

                          #72
                          Re: The small trimaran thread

                          [QUOTE=Chris Ostlind;3383179]Sorry, but I only worked off of your comments from several posts earlier, as well as the quoted text, where it was you who mentioned the EC.

                          The EC was only mentioned to point out the specific boats

                          As they say in court my friend, you opened the door.

                          I'd like to close it if you don't mind. This was a simple thread about the available small triamarans.

                          Just because you don't like what came through after you did so, doesn't remove its value. Go take a scan back through the posts and see how many references you, personally, have made to the EC. That should get you rolling on the right track here. So, unless you are willing to chastise yourself and then have the WB folks remove all mention of the EC in the thread, it looks like it's here to stay.

                          As to comparing a day late effort to a pair of guys who played by the rules as entitled... One can make any comparison one wishes.


                          Boats, I was only talking about the boats, and how difficult it is to actually compare the value of the boats.

                          It was the crew of the tri who decided to start a day late. Nobody forced them to do so. Others went as planned and scheduled, so it's on the tri crew alone for how and when they chose to start. I am curious, though, as to why you have become so rah-rah defensive about the trimaran team. Whining about their "late to the game" effort and then adding insult to the Tornado crew for, once again, having the best boat and team on the water is goofy. When the tri gets to the start on time, they are ready for a proper go at the Tornado team, then you can make the comparisons without the excuses. Right now, it sounds like sour grapes and is functionally irrelevant.

                          Come on, Bubba, it's over and it isn't going to change anything. Man-up, get prepared for next year (if one cares to do it again) and leave the start beach on time with a functional boat that has no loose ends. Geez, is it really that difficult?


                          It really is not that difficult. Stay on track. Different boats, what are they? Not macho chest beating about something neither you or I did this year. Actually never for myself, I don't know about you.

                          Perhaps I should bring up #71. This looks a lot like what you accused Ray Aldridge of - pushing his own professional products. At least his had been built.
                          How about you and I just stop posting to this thread and let everyone else get back to the nice simple fun of pointing out the small trimarans available.

                          Comment

                          • upchurchmr
                            Senior Member
                            • May 2009
                            • 2518

                            #73
                            Re: The small trimaran thread

                            John,

                            Thanks for the clarification. I only read a bystander report, obviously not knowledgeable.

                            The only point was that little low boats suffer in the waves.

                            Marc

                            Originally posted by John Bell
                            I was at the start on the day that occurred in 2010. The boat in question was an early production boat. The skipper sailed it over from the boat ramp on the back side of Mullet Key and in his enthusiasm with his new boat he pressed it too hard and cracked one of the crossbeam. He would up going home only because the boat was broken.

                            Comment

                            • Chris Ostlind
                              North of the Pier
                              • Jun 2002
                              • 730

                              #74
                              Re: The small trimaran thread

                              Originally posted by upchurchmr

                              ...Perhaps I should bring up #71. This looks a lot like what you accused Ray Aldridge of - pushing his own professional products. At least his had been built.
                              How about you and I just stop posting to this thread and let everyone else get back to the nice simple fun of pointing out the small trimarans available.
                              If you take note, I never mentioned one of my designs until Dan suggested that we speculate as to the potential of the Europa 20 trimaran. In threads elsewhere on this section of the greater forum, there have been numerous instances where my designs, the XCR, has been discussed by others and I stayed out of the thread. Truth is, I have about a dozen small tri designs of all sizes that would comfortably fit into this category should I elect to present them. That I have not until asked to speculate as mentioned, says that I am engaged in the practice as I suggested to Ray and others regarding the pimping of their boats as a function of using this forum. I indicated to Ray that answering questions, etc., about his boat would be more than acceptable in this fashion. What isn't acceptable, in my estimation, is the production of a thread topic that is not much more than a method for shoving one's designs out into the mix, over and over, in an effort to gain cheap advertising.

                              I'm not going to list my sailing CV on these pages. Suffice to say that I have done significant coastal adventure cruises in the past, both sailing and paddling, will do more in the future and have a solid grasp as to what it takes to do so successfully.

                              Thanks for the suggestion, but I'm not about to withdraw from a topic where I have considerable knowledge, simply because you put it forth. If it's product credibility you seek in order for me to justify my presence here, then take a look at the accomplishments of Ben and Emily Algera, who sailed and paddled one of my boat designs to a class victory in this recent EC. They didn't walk away from the adventure when faced with an approaching front. They, like many others, pushed off. The XCR led the Class 3 mob down the coast until they opted to take their boat through a huge portion of the Everglades (a good deal more than the Nightmare section) and completed the course in the time allotted. Ray's boat never left the beach, much less demonstrated that it could actually complete an EC intact. I'm not down on Ray for that, He made his choice and that's that. But as far as proof of concept because it is built, as you suggest... perhaps you will recognize that a great design that safely and swiftly conveys its crew to the intended goal is a whole lot more accomplished than a boat that never attempts the route, built, or not?

                              Comment

                              • upchurchmr
                                Senior Member
                                • May 2009
                                • 2518

                                #75
                                Re: The small trimaran thread

                                You still don't get it.

                                Boats not EC. I have no problem with you talking about boats.

                                This is a waste of time.

                                I want to apologize to everyone else. Shouldn't have ever responded. This was a nice thread.

                                Originally posted by Chris Ostlind
                                If you take note, I never mentioned one of my designs until Dan suggested that we speculate as to the potential of the Europa 20 trimaran. In threads elsewhere on this section of the greater forum, there have been numerous instances where my designs, the XCR, has been discussed by others and I stayed out of the thread. Truth is, I have about a dozen small tri designs of all sizes that would comfortably fit into this category should I elect to present them. That I have not until asked to speculate as mentioned, says that I am engaged in the practice as I suggested to Ray and others regarding the pimping of their boats as a function of using this forum. I indicated to Ray that answering questions, etc., about his boat would be more than acceptable in this fashion. What isn't acceptable, in my estimation, is the production of a thread topic that is not much more than a method for shoving one's designs out into the mix, over and over, in an effort to gain cheap advertising.

                                I'm not going to list my sailing CV on these pages. Suffice to say that I have done significant coastal adventure cruises in the past, both sailing and paddling, will do more in the future and have a solid grasp as to what it takes to do so successfully.

                                Thanks for the suggestion, but I'm not about to withdraw from a topic where I have considerable knowledge, simply because you put it forth. If it's product credibility you seek in order for me to justify my presence here, then take a look at the accomplishments of Ben and Emily Algera, who sailed and paddled one of my boat designs to a class victory in this recent EC. They didn't walk away from the adventure when faced with an approaching front. They, like many others, pushed off. The XCR led the Class 3 mob down the coast until they opted to take their boat through a huge portion of the Everglades (a good deal more than the Nightmare section) and completed the course in the time allotted. Ray's boat never left the beach, much less demonstrated that it could actually complete an EC intact. I'm not down on Ray for that, He made his choice and that's that. But as far as proof of concept because it is built, as you suggest... perhaps you will recognize that a great design that safely and swiftly conveys its crew to the intended goal is a whole lot more accomplished than a boat that never attempts the route, built, or not?

                                Comment

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