How to finish a mast

[Wacoflyr]

Hello everybody. I seldom post here, but I have a problem you may be able to help with. I am finishing up a Pooduck that I have been working on for almost three years. I'm one of those guys that is all thumbs, so this is a major accomplishment for me. Anyway, it became time to build the mast. My brother, who is much more capable with wood, contributed several planks of absolutely gorgeous sitka spruce that had been sitting in his boat shed for at least ten years. A carpenter friend of mine helped me turn out a beautiful bird's mouth hollow mast. The boat is for my daughter, so I wanted the mast to be light enough for her to step.

After much planing and sanding, the mast is almost ready for a finish. I was going to varnish it with about eight coats, and call it good. However, various people are suggesting that I first give it a clear coat of epoxy. This sounds almost like sacrilege. We actually built the mast with Titebond III. Would you first coat it with epoxy? Or would you go straight to that good dutch stuff?

I enjoyed building the Pooduck very much (getting it out of the basement was highly entertaining) but I am sick of epoxy. However, I want to do the right thing. Thanks in advance.

Wacoflyr

[wizbang 13]

no.even I would not
epoxy mucks up the color

[David G]

No. It's expense with no substantive gain... and some downside.

[Wacoflyr]

No. It's expense with no substantive gain... and some downside.

okay, I see from your website that you probably know what you are talking about, and I tend to agree with you. But please, why no substantive gain? Sealing the wood could prevent future rot. And what is the downside? A change in color? I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just trying to understand.

[almeyer]

My two cents - all epoxy will do on a mast is add weight and make it tougher to refinish in the future. Epoxy is great stuff used in the right places, but this isn't it.
Congradulations on the Pooduck, that's a nice boat. Post some pictures, we'd all like to admire your efforts.

Al

[Wacoflyr]

I'll work on the photos. We just finished glueing up the boom-also hollow. I know, it's a tiny stick, why make it hollow, but we couldn't help ourselves. We were having too much fun.

[David G]

okay, I see from your website that you probably know what you are talking about, and I tend to agree with you. But please, why no substantive gain? Sealing the wood could prevent future rot. And what is the downside? A change in color? I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just trying to understand.

What almeyer said.

Plus - epoxy tends to dry hard and a bit brittle... at least in comparison to the best spar finishes. One of the things that makes for a good spar finish is flexibility over time. Spars move more than most other boat components, so finishes that don't dry super hard (aka long-oil finishes) are called for. Epoxy does not match that profile.

[Wacoflyr]

Thanks! That's just what I needed to know. Epiphanes it is.

[andrewpatrol]

Just wondering if Deks Olje could be used on a mast/boom etc, dont mean to barge in but sort of been wondering a similar question

[willin woodworks]

Wouldnt hurt to stand the butt end in a coffe can full of CPES for bit.

Go with the Epifanes.

[Lawrie]

all above.
The epoxy will haunt you ten years from now, when you need to strip the mast and revarnish -varnish will come off with heat,.. and a quick sand and your back in the water.
I have just redone our ~50 yr old sitka mast - stripped ~10 coats off as moisture, UV and time had failed large sections ezpecially as the mast lives outdoors (54' long) one thing i like to do is rub the freshly sanded wood with a boiled linseed oil/turpentine mix (~50/50) - i pour on heavy, wipe of in 15 minutes, than buff with dry rag after a day.
this gives a lovley sparkle/luster under the varnish and fillsthe pores - but make sure the finish is well rubbed off, and had good dry time or else you can get fog under the varnish

[Brian Palmer]

Wouldnt hurt to stand the butt end in a coffe can full of CPES for bit.

Go with the Epifanes.

I don't see that this is needed. This is a small boat mast that should be fine with just well-maintained varnish.

CPES is an epoxy dissolved in solvent, but it is still an epoxy. How can you stand a mast in a can of it without it hardening while you wait for it to soak into the mast butt?

Brian

[willin woodworks]

The CPES will wick nicely up the end grain for hours before it will harden. Makes a nice "Primer" for the varnish too.

[Windsong]

3 very thinned hot coats (recoat w/o sanding when varnish is still "green" just past tacky) of Jet speed or Man of War on bare spar. Seals and builds enough "first" coat to light sand the next day for the next 8 coats of Spar Varnish. Add 2 coats every spring and go sailing. Works for me.
Cheers
Lars

[PaulGrun]

This is a very interesting thread. I just started a new thread asking whether to use 206 or 207 epoxy. In talking with the shop that built my boat (a Wm. Garden eel canoe yawl), they had suggested an epoxy coating on the masts under the varnish.

And yet the overwhelming body of opinion here is clearly saying, 'no epoxy on the masts'. I'm especially persuaded by Lawrie's comment that the epoxy will haunt me ten years from now. I've just finished stripping the old finish (varnish) which although not exactly a walk in the park also wasn't that bad of a job.

[Wacoflyr]

I'm certainly convinced. Building a Pooduck involves a great deal of epoxy, and I'm tired of it. That is why we built the mast using Titebond III. When I was a boy, (when dinosoars ruled the earth) my father was the very proud owner of Gentian, one of the New York 32's. That boat had an enormous spruce stick, something on the order of 55 feet. (can't remember exactly.) Even back then it was thirty years old, and had held up beautifully with just varnish. We boys spent our spring sanding and varnishing, but I don't recall regretting it. And the mast just glowed. I understand the boat lives in Castine now. I'll have to go visit it.

[Tom3]

I remember when I wooded my main spar in 2005, how glad I was it only had varnish on it. My guess by the boats history and thickness of the varnish, it was at least 15 years since it had been wooded. The thicker the old coat is, the easier it seems to come off with careful heat gun and a stiff scraper.

Because I work outside, as someone else mentioned, I used 3 coats of a fast dry varnish to seal it without sanding. Then went to spar varnish to build the coats, sanding lightly between each(and working between spring rains).

I think I got 8 on before launch and add one coat each spring(forgiving Maine sunshine). It still looks as new and it's years before it will have to be wooded again(not that daunting)
Spar wooded by Tom Young 3, on Flickr

[GARRBOSR]

ya know when you think about it, they didnt have epoxy 100 years ago, but spar Varnish was and lots of them boats are still around. They say the cpes is the way to go and maybe it is, but with doing it the old ways, Im sure I wont be around when its time has come

[mason smith]

I have done exactly what you ask about, using System Three's wonderful Clear Coat epoxy on bare spars. It goes on just like varnish but is all solids, penetrates well, and gives a great base for varnish with only one coat. But in general I have quit the practice, for one reason: if you fail to renew the varnish in time, and the UV filters in the varnish wear out and the light attacks the epoxy, you have to go all the way back to bare wood to restore. I think the only advantage in pre-coating with epoxy was the quick, one-coat satisfaction of the wood, so that it takes fewer coats of varnish to get the desired build. That's not worth the risk, or so I now think.

[GARRBOSR]

is there a specific UV inhibitor/ protector like a cream, paste, something like a Thompson in the deck world but specifically for protecting varnishes without having to a full sand and coat, like an inbetweener

[Lars Silen]

I had to replace the mizzen mast on my Mystic sharpie. This could provide some insight in how not to build a mast and also perhaps on some improvements.

Some background:
I built the original mast in about 2004/2005. The design was a very simple hollow "box" mast with 2x6'' beams in front and rear and 1'' thick spacers 40 mm wide at the base and 10 mm at the top. Building a mast of this type goes very fast ... I built the replacement in roughly one week.

Problems with the original mast:
I built the mast from local fir and used polyurethane glue. The glue is nice because it sets fairly fast compared to slowly setting epoxy. The problem with the glue is that it sets using the humidity of the air and after setting it still seems to be hygroscopic. Over the years the glued seams turned black, never a good thing I suppose. The real problem was worse though. I had planned to have the mast totally sealed partly to ensure boyancy in a possible knock down, this meant I didn't paint the inside in any way. I also partly filled the mast with aluminium foil to get a large radar reflector for free. I also added an electrical wire for future use from the base to the top. The electrical wire probably caused a small leak causing water to collect inside the mast. I also had added reinforcements in the area where the mast went through the deck. This reinforcement was a big mistake because the drain channel was clogged by the polyurethane glue when assembling the mast. The result, after a few years of sailing, was that when I was going for a longer sail in July the mizzen de-laminated from the top one third of the mast downwards. Fortunately I had sailed only some ten nm so I sailed back and went sailing with my brother in stead . Checking the mast after the sail clearly indicated it wasn't worth repairing. Some kind of wood mushroom lived inside ...

The new mast:
The new mast is built roughly as the old one. Now I use epoxy and I sealed all inner surfaces using epoxy before assembling the mast. I didn't add aluminium foil and I didn't add any reinforcements at the deck level. I also left out the electrical wire. The new mast should be absolutely water tight from the top and sides . My experience with varnish is that it takes a lot of work to keep it nice looking. The new mast is painted with boat tar which looks good and traditional and new layers can easily be added.

I salvaged most components from the old mast like cleats, mast track etc. even screws. Before using any of the salvaged parts I boiled them for some time. My reasoning is that it is unnecessary to incubate the new mast with fungi from the old one. I also dipped all screws in tar before screwing them in.

Lars Silén, Finland

[RodB]

Lars..... what exactly is your "boat tar" (perhaps pine tar cut with turpentine ??) and also... how about posting a photos of your new mast with the boat tar finish...

Thanks for the post...

RodB

[Jay Greer]

There is no advantage to sealing a mast with epoxy other than it creates a profit for those involved with hawking the product. Aside from the mess and expense involved with using it, a mast sealed with epoxy can take on moisture through a damaged section of the wood. This will lead to discoloration and or, eventual rot.
Now the fun begins, if the wood is stained from moisture or mold, bleach cannot reach it because the wood is sealed with a coating that is impervious to all known paint and varnish removers. When gluing up a spar, I brush on two coats of shellac on the inner surfaces. Shellac is antiseptic and will kill any rot spores or bacteria in or on the wood. In addition it does not support bacteria as it contains no sugars or starches. And lastly, it is very inexpensive and very clean to work with when compared to epoxy. A quick wash with alcohol is all that is needed to remove it from ones hands.
The only sealing material needed on the out side of the spar is a first coat of varnish that is thinned out a third to a fourth with turpentine. Subsequent coats of full strength varnish will adhear to it very well. In fact a better idea is to hot coat on top of the first coat as soon as it is dry to a light tack. If the weather gods permit, a third coat can be added as soon as the second coat has become tacky. Wait till that is hard, sand with 220 and work until there are eight coats in all. Those who have tried this in the past have, reported back to me that it is amazingly fast, efficient and easy to do. And best of all, it is easy to maintain! There is no reason to make extra work and expense for your project you know!
Jay

[davebrown]

I used epoxy--and sloppily--on both main and mizzen masts on my coquina build. The main is a four piece scooped out hollow mast and the mizzen is a birdsmouth. I could not get the pox to blend (color-wise) and therefore ended up painting the masts a flat white, which I do not like with that boat. In the winter I will make a second set of masts and avoid the damn stuff. They are functional as is, but do not match the rest of the boat aesthetically.

[Lars Silen]

Boat tar is traditional pine tar that still is allowed in Finland. I painted the mast with one layer raw (no turpentine) tar ... the tar needed roughly one week to dry .
I'll try to upload a few pictures of the project. The new mast has been tested with no problems and I think the finish is OK but very traditional. The colour is light brown but it will darken when additional layers are applied in the future. One positive thing is of course the smell of tar!

Time will show if the finish is easier to keep up than conventional varnish. Jay Greer's idea of using shellac sounds very interesting. I have never used it for boat work, only for music instruments.

[JimConlin]

What Jay said.

DaveBrown-
One of the nice things about epoxy is that getting it off might not be difficult. A heat gun and a scraper will do the trick.

[Lars Silen]

Some pictures of the damaged mast and of the process building the new mast are found via the link
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...1&l=4a002cbd48

[Gerarddm]

I admire your courage with that ladder, Lars. Bravo!

[GARRBOSR]

Hey Lars, That must have been quite the job just getting that ladder in position. I think I might have gotten a cherry picker for the day,

[esingleman]

On my Pooduck, I used orange shellac to give the mast and spars a base color to contrast with the white tips I painted on them. After the shellac dried, I varnished them with four coats of vanish, and have added a couple more coats over the years. Don't worry about them rotting at all, they don't live in the water, and you keep them off of the ground when not sailing. The eight or twelve coats of varnish that everyone says you need is if the varnish will see the sun all of the time. If you keep your spars in the boat and the boat is covered or stored under shade when not in use like mine is, then four coats is plenty. I think epoxy has some good uses as an adhesive, and for some boat building techniques, but I think it has no business on spars or as a finish at all, it doesn't paint on well, it can leave bubbles, it adds weight, and you have to varnish over it anyway to protect it from UV.

If I had to do it all over again, instead of the shellac, I would darken the wood with this process.... Let some steel wool sit in some vinegar for a few days (this puts iron into solution), then make some very strong tea and paint the wood with it. Then, in about an hour, brush the vinegar solution onto the wood (strain out the steel wool first). The iron reacts with the tannins in the wood plus the tannins left by the tea, and darkens the wood naturally giving it the look of an old spar when you varnish it. I got this technique off of the internet form an old furniture repair guy. I am planning to do this with the spars of my 12 1/2 which have been stripped back to bare wood and I would like to look old again. I haven't tried this yet, but plan to test it out on scrap wood first.

Erick

[Autonomous]

Let us know how this stain process works out. It may be just the thing for Miss Molly's new spars.
As far as using tea as a dye that's how to put some color back into old faded Carhartt bibs.

[rpeirce]

Just be sure to use a good spar varnish with a UV inhibitor added. The spar varnishes are more flexible than two part polyurethane varnishes and won't crack as the mast bends during use. The UV inhibitor is necessary to prolong the life of the varnish. I used to put one to two coats of Z-Spar Captain's varnish a year on my former wooden spruce mast and that worked fine.

[Lars Silen]

Hey Lars, That must have been quite the job just getting that ladder in position. I think I might have gotten a cherry picker for the day,

Actually the "ladder" looks very much more dangerous than what it is in real life. The steel ladder is actually the mast crane used to lift the mast in. It is anchored in concrete at the the lower end and the steel support wires are substantial. It is actually absolutely stable with no movements whatever I do ... it is built and owned by the nearby boat club.

[GARRBOSR]

that does clear things up a bit thanks lars. Im in construction so Im no stranger to ladders but that did look a bit ,,, crazier than I might come across in my daily activities lol

[Autonomous]

If I had to do it all over again... I would darken the wood with this process.... Let some steel wool sit in some vinegar for a few days (this puts iron into solution), then make some very strong tea and paint the wood with it. Then, in about an hour, brush the vinegar solution onto the wood (strain out the steel wool first)... I am planning to do this with the spars of my 12 1/2 which have been stripped back to bare wood and I would like to look old again. I haven't tried this yet, but plan to test it out on scrap wood first.

Erick

I've started experimenting with this and don't care for the gray-charcoal results. Something more of a brown color is what I had in mind.

[GARRBOSR]

I like the shellac idea, I didnt know it had the anti rot properties and with that, it makes allot of sense and will try that on my coaming boards

[wizbang 13]

no kidding, that is cool. I want one!!!