Small tender design for hard use

[Duncan S]

I want to build a small tender to get the 300 yards or so out to my mooring. (Sheltered water) It is purely to transport bodies and gear out to the boat so wants to be a stable work horse. This poor creature will have a have a hard life and I don’t expect it to last forever just 3 or 4years. It will be bumped into a concrete slip at high tide and be dragged up the rocky shore at low tide. It will be rolled upside down on a hard gravel surface and abandoned until next use, unless it is stolen before that.

This apple pie http://www.boatdesign.com/applepie/index.htm looks Ideal has anybody got anyother suggestions or know any problems with this design?

I’m not looking to build a thing of beauty or spend a fortune. I’m thinking of beefing it up to 3/8 or ½ or inch ply and will go and buy a couple of sheets of WBP or even shuttering ply and stick it together with polyester resin and tape (because it seems a waste of epoxy) The rest will be made from off cuts of Larch left lying about my shed. I will paint it in whatever household paint is lying about or use a tin of bitumen paint.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Duncan

[Peerie Maa]

How many bodies? If three up I'd look for a longer design.

[David G]

Duncan,

Apple Pie looks like a good choice.

Here's another to consider - the Tree Frog. I've been in one, and it's both stable and burdensome. Something tough for the gunwales, and it should last for quite a while. The less typical bow shape works, and will possibly make it less tempting for a thief:

http://www.applegateboatworks.com/treefrog.html

[Duncan S]

Just 2 men and a wee bit of gear. If extra bodies or gear are coming allong we can make a second trip. I want it to be light enough for one person to drag / roll over.

[wizbang 13]

That apple pie is kinna small. An 8 n a half foot stitch n glue will weigh less and build in half the time. Toughness can be added with a pair of skegs. Ignore the fancy motor cutout and laminated knees for your purpose.

[Duncan S]

Didn't you say something similar about your restoration of Pippin

Not me Duncan S you thinking of Duncan Gibbs?

[Hwyl]

I like John Gardner's Pram of surprising ability http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...g-Ability-quot you don't need to nest it like Dave did

[JimD]

I also vote for getting the most out of a sheet of plywood possible. You should be able to come up with a pram very nearly 8 ft long and 4 feet wide, and those extra inches can make a big difference in a dinghy. Half inch ply bottom, 3/8 sides, exterior grade. You'll have a tough little beast to show for your efforts. Atkin's Schatze:

[Jamie Orr]

There's a 10 foor version (Peach Pie) as well. Sadly, Chuck Merrell who designed them recently passed away after a return bout with cancer, but one was built in Scotland and the builder may still have the plans. The 10 footer was very successful - I built a 6 footer that fit inside my boat and performed well with 1 or 2 people but was just too cramped for my knees.

Jamie

I want to build a small tender to get the 300 yards or so out to my mooring. (Sheltered water) It is purely to transport bodies and gear out to the boat so wants to be a stable work horse. This poor creature will have a have a hard life and I don’t expect it to last forever just 3 or 4years. It will be bumped into a concrete slip at high tide and be dragged up the rocky shore at low tide. It will be rolled upside down on a hard gravel surface and abandoned until next use, unless it is stolen before that.

This apple pie http://www.boatdesign.com/applepie/index.htm looks Ideal has anybody got anyother suggestions or know any problems with this design?

I’m not looking to build a thing of beauty or spend a fortune. I’m thinking of beefing it up to 3/8 or ½ or inch ply and will go and buy a couple of sheets of WBP or even shuttering ply and stick it together with polyester resin and tape (because it seems a waste of epoxy) The rest will be made from off cuts of Larch left lying about my shed. I will paint it in whatever household paint is lying about or use a tin of bitumen paint.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Duncan

[gilberj]

Perhaps Mr. Bolgers 'elegant punt' or the 'brick' which has morphed into the PDR. How about the Auray punt. I think of small dinghy's like this as somewhat disposable, though in fact I have had some last quite long indeed. I have used the elegant punt and found it a good dinghy.

[Lewisboater]

I think a PD would be perfect... leave off the sailing bits and box off about 6-8" at the bow and stern for flotation and beef up the gunnels to stand a pounding and rowing. Use a portable box for a seat with cleats to locate it on the floor. Definitely cheap to build and so not much loss if it disappears...but almost ugly enough not to disappear anyways. You could stick one together in a weekend, so not much time invested either.

[David G]

A PDR works fine as a tender. Burdensome and stable. I have two friends that have used theirs thusly. That is - unless you want to tow your tender behind the mothership. Both report miserable towing performance.

[James McMullen]

I haven't built a Brick or a PD Racer, but I did build the very similarly shaped Bolger Tortoise and it was the worst dinghy I ever tried to tow. It was absolutely wretched in a following sea. I have found that the more rounded small prams are the best option if your boat is so small that you simply must tow everywhere (And they also row better to boot!). I know that this is at odds with ultra-simple disposable tenders, but there you go, make your choice. You'll have to decide what is most important to you, cheapness or performance. I can see arguments for either side depending on your particular use.

[Ian McColgin]

It's a nice dink for it's purpose. I especially like the lengthwise seat and two rowing stations which makes her great for two people and some gear. Not really good for two passengers. Also, for 300 yards I'd go for something a bit more capacious and seaworthy. Like the tender to the Marco Polo. Check out that thread.

[Duncan S]

Thanks for all your input. And some very good points made. I am perhaps beginning to think too much and should just be pick a plan and build it. But where is the fun in that? So here are my thoughts at the moment

The point that a pram dinghy should the maximum length you can get out of an 8X4 sheet is a good one and I will try to follow

I think the lengthwise rowing seat and 2 rowing positions is a definite to make this boat work with different loads on board.

The PDR It may be good for my needs and I’m sure lots of folk have great fun with them but I am not going to build one of these. Let’s just leave it at that.

I like Aitkin’s Schatze: slightly bigger than apple pie and seems to fit the bill.

I have been thinking along the same lines as you Ian and wonder would a slightly V-bottom make better boat to row in a bit of a chop. So I started looking at these plans. For the Kingfisher dinghy http://www.svensons.com/boat/?p=RowBoats/KingFisher they are a bit vague compared to today’s standards but I’m thinking of reducing it down to one sheet length and just work it out as I go along.

I looked at Bateau’s Prameke http://www.bateau.com/studyplans/PK7....htm?prod=PK78 but the bottom panels look very tortured to me and bumping up the panel thickness may make it hard to stitch together. I built this Bateau 10 footer a few years back and found getting it all stitched up hard work.




Of course I could build another

Or add ½ to each station of the apple pie to bring it up to the full 8ft


More thinking time required will come back in a couple of days, Duncan

[Ian McColgin]

The LFH dink for the Marco Polo does not have any V.

[Mike Vogdes]

That apple pie is kinna small. An 8 n a half foot stitch n glue will weigh less and build in half the time. Toughness can be added with a pair of skegs. Ignore the fancy motor cutout and laminated knees for your purpose.

I really like this design by Wizbang, make's sense in all the right places. Got a plan for this Wiz or are you gonna make me plagiarize?

[wizbang 13]

No plan Mike. I used basic numbers, beam of bottom, beam at finished rail, etc. from an El Toro.
The trick with a tortured/ compound curve bottom is the brace in the second pic. The brace keeps the bottom from going too round. The nut on the all thread adjusts the tension/rocker.
I build cardboard models, two inches to the foot.
Paul Johnson taught me this technique 33 years ago, happy to share.

[Mike Vogdes]

No plan Mike. I used basic numbers, beam of bottom, beam at finished rail, etc. from an El Toro.
The trick with a tortured/ compound curve bottom is the brace in the second pic. The brace keeps the bottom from going too round. The nut on the all thread adjusts the tension/rocker.
I build cardboard models, two inches to the foot.
Paul Johnson taught me this technique 33 years ago, happy to share.

Thanks, was wondering about the vice grips, I get the picture now.

[gilberj]

Going over 8 feet certainly adds a few extra steps with scarfing the plywood to get the longer panels. I'd still recommend a longer boat as being more seaworthy and easier to row a distance with a load. You are going 300 odd yards, a fair distance. supposing you have to ferry a load out against a strong wind, those little almost spherical boats drag the transom when loaded and are hard to push against the wind.
If you are going with the 8 foot panel limit I highly recommend a longitudinal seat or a T seat and two rowing positions. This is a drawback for many small dinghys, not being able to trim properly when loaded.

[gilberj]

Hi Wizbang
I have fiddled in my imagination with that sort of design concept on and off for years. I never figured out how to get the side panels into position, kind of like a "one armed paper hanger". Do you fit the transoms first? do you use a temporary mold amidships?? Do you have some idea of the side panel shape to pre cut prior to fitting of a dry fit to scribe the curve???

[JimD]

would a slightly V-bottom make better boat to row in a bit of a chop. So I started looking at these plans.

This is my Selway Fisher 7'9" x 4' vee bottomed pram. Plans are available stitch and glue or framed. If I were going to build it to be as rugged as possible with a 1/2" bottom I would opt for the framed version. I find it to be a well behaved little pram and it tows well, tracking very nicely with a generous skeg. http://www.selway-fisher.com/Otherupto10.htm#IMP

[wizbang 13]

Hi Wizbang
I have fiddled in my imagination with that sort of design concept on and off for years. I never figured out how to get the side panels into position, kind of like a "one armed paper hanger". Do you fit the transoms first? do you use a temporary mold amidships?? Do you have some idea of the side panel shape to pre cut prior to fitting of a dry fit to scribe the curve???

gilberg, most of the questions are answered in building of the model. I have built so many prams this way that I did not model this particular one. The transoms go on first, yes. The bottom brace is kept on until the end. the strings are kept on as long as possible , oh, she wants to go out of alignment. some that I built TOO quickly did. Hunks of lead, rocks, stakes in the ground, all employed. I have taken to building s n g boats on a small trailer lately. One has a strong, flat platform, and you can wheel it outside for tanning, I mean sanding, and indoors at night /rain.
The side panel shape does not need to be accurately cut , it can hang below the bottom, and be trimmed later.
is a myth that the ply corners have to kiss or fit accurately.Thread drift here , but here is wizbang going together, whatever it takes, but it is not rocket surgery. I cannot stress enough the value of the model, trying to figure it out.

[gilberj]

Thanks....I'll have a go with a model first.

[Harvey Cheyne, Jr.]

A PDR works fine as a tender. Burdensome and stable. I have two friends that have used theirs thusly. That is - unless you want to tow your tender behind the mothership. Both report miserable towing performance.

David, could you please ask them what happened during towing (slewing, flooding, barging, etc.)? I'm thinking of building a PDR and am really curious what put those two guys off towing a PDR.

Did either boat have a skeg? How high off the waterline was the towing eye? Did the PDR's tow miserably under all conditions?

And as long as I'm asking , do you have any pictures of the boats?

thanks in advance for any light you can shed here.

cheers

Harve

[Harvey Cheyne, Jr.]

..." Bolger Tortoise and it was the worst dinghy I ever tried to tow. It was absolutely wretched in a following sea. .

James, what happened to the towed Tortoise in a following sea? Did it have a skeg? How high was the towing eye?

Thanks

Harve

[Harvey Cheyne, Jr.]

Garth Battista towed the Michalak Vole a fair bit:

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/07/...ecod/index.htm

Vole sails with two adults and two kids. Nice little story of family cruising.

[David G]

David, could you please ask them what happened during towing (slewing, flooding, barging, etc.)? I'm thinking of building a PDR and am really curious what put those two guys off towing a PDR.

Did either boat have a skeg? How high off the waterline was the towing eye? Did the PDR's tow miserably under all conditions?

And as long as I'm asking , do you have any pictures of the boats?

thanks in advance for any light you can shed here.

cheers

Harve

Sorry, few details. One friend is out of communication. Neither friend has the same mothership, nor the same dinghy at this point. I was aboard one of their boats when towing a PDR. Calm water, and it did ok. He said anything rougher, and it skidded around, and had even flipped. Don't recall how high the towing eye was. PDR's don't have skegs - it's not class legal. I did ferry several loads of beer and groceries aboard myself and the PDR carried plenty, and rowed ok.

[gilberj]

I have towed dinghies for decades and generally prefer towing to carrying. Possibly the best towing dinghy I have had was an Al Mason Pootzy 6.5 feet of serious dinghy. I have towed it in 2 to 4 metre following seas, and never seen it trip, or give any indication it might flip or down-flood (fill over the side). I have seen others do both. I think V bottom prams may be the best for towing. The boats I have seen trip, roll, or down-flood were mostly variations of round bottom, and some flat bottom boats as well. I have friends who have seen their Zodiak flip several times. A good skeg is I think necessary.
Having said all that I am about to start building a Nordic flat bottom, flared sides pram.....

[wtarzia]

Has anyone looked at Russ Brown's new nesting dinghy? Bolts in two halfs, and can be sailed. The hull form looks very nice, and it is sold as a kit. Not sure if it satisfies the 'hard use' criteria, but that can usually be added where needed I guess. -- Wade

[jimkeen]

Since you will be dragging it over grael and hauling a bunch of stuff, I would suggest you look at the Harry Bryan Ladybug. It is a handsome little boat with loads of practicality. I think it will last a bit more than 4 years even under the use you say it will endure. It is a bit expensive but what an attention getter,
Here is mine that will be used as a tender to my BlueJacket 271.

[jimkeen]

Actually a much better pic on the cover of WB 224 Check it out

[Dave Hadfield]

I do exactly that, row several hundred yards to my mooring. For that I built a 10 ft punt that is superb for the job.








But before that I used a Bolger "Elegant Punt" for several years. If you want quick and cheap, but very useful, I'd recommend it. Tows well, rows well and is light enough to lift up over the rail with one hand and stow on deck. It's also a 2-sheet boat, and can be built easily in 2 weekends. And it's unlikely to be stolen, particularly if you build it with outside chines, which you should. It's only drawback is that it's noisy at anchor.

BTW -- ditto on the fore-and-aft seat plank. Far, far easier to trim the boat level. A dinghy with only one place to row from is horrible with 2 people on board -- you have a choice of the stern sticking way up in the air, or the bow.



This photo is from the internet, but shows the usefulness of that seat, and the burdensome nature of the boat. The paint is ugly, but never mind that.

It rows very well solo -- I often rowed around the anchorage just at sunset, for the pleasure of it.

Dave

[Thad]

Never saw that pic of your boat before, Dave. Thanks. Looking great as usual.

[gilberj]

I agree......A small dinghy need either a fore and aft seat or a T seat so there can be two rowing positions. It is more important in an 8 foot boat than a 16 foot boat. In any case there should be at least 2 rowing positions to allow for different load conditions.

[Duncan S]

I have had a few internet problems and been off-line for a while. Also lost my camera. Hope these things dont go in three's
Anyway have the tender built just needs a few more coats of paint. I will post details when I figure out how to use the new camera.


Duncan

[Duncan S]

Thanks to all who contributed to this discussion. I had intended to put up a little build thread but as I said my camera went missing. Since the boat is well on the way I will pop a few pictures here.

Although there are lots of excellent designs out there for about $50 being stingy about this build and looking for free designs I choose fellow formulite and poster on this thread Steve Lewis’s DingBat design. Emailing Steve He said that he has not done much with this design for about 10 years and I got the impression it has fallen off the radar a bit. Steve may be along shortly to explain a bit more. I thought the plan suited my requirements well and liked the way it makes maximum use of an 8 X 4 sheet (side panels are 96” long) Perhaps its time for an update Steve?

Wiz I like your methods and will add it to my *must give that a go sometime* list but it is a very long list! This time I just wanted a quikie build.

With 2 sheets of 3/8 WBP ply purchased. The panels were cut out quite simply and all stitched together with cable ties. Conceding a little to cost I filleted the joints with epoxy but reverted to form by glass taping with polyester. I steam bent the sheer strake round and made up the other parts from leftover / un-useable Larch from my ongoing Gartside 163 build.

Cost so far

2sheets ply €38
Cable ties €8
Glass Tape €12
Epoxy- Had in stock
Polyester – in stock
Oar locks and holders €10
Aluminium primer € 30
TOTAL so far under €100

Build time so far approx 20hours

After primer I just used leftover household paint. So here she is with undercoat




I will keep you posted for a splash shortly.

[gilberj]

looks great....

[Dale Genther]

Duncan S - I too am looking to built a small tender. I want something to replace the rather ugly inflatable we keep on the cabintop of slackwater, our Chesapeake Bay Deadrise. I looked, but was unable to find any info. on the Lewis DingBat you are building. Where can I find info./specs?

In any case, what I'm looking for is something less than 50 lbs., quick and easy to build (S&G), 8 ft or less in length. It also needs to be stable as I need to be able to stand up in it and lift a 60 lb nervous and somewaht unwilling dog into it and off of it. This is where the inflatable is really nice because of it's stabily. Ability to row well isn't overly important as it will mostly be powered by a 2 hp Honda outboard.

Any additional suggestions are welecome!!

[Lewisboater]

Thanks to all who contributed to this discussion. I had intended to put up a little build thread but as I said my camera went missing. Since the boat is well on the way I will pop a few pictures here.

Although there are lots of excellent designs out there for about $50 being stingy about this build and looking for free designs I choose fellow formulite and poster on this thread Steve Lewis’s DingBat design. Emailing Steve He said that he has not done much with this design for about 10 years and I got the impression it has fallen off the radar a bit. Steve may be along shortly to explain a bit more. I thought the plan suited my requirements well and liked the way it makes maximum use of an 8 X 4 sheet (side panels are 96” long) Perhaps its time for an update Steve?

Wiz I like your methods and will add it to my *must give that a go sometime* list but it is a very long list! This time I just wanted a quikie build.

With 2 sheets of 3/8 WBP ply purchased. The panels were cut out quite simply and all stitched together with cable ties. Conceding a little to cost I filleted the joints with epoxy but reverted to form by glass taping with polyester. I steam bent the sheer strake round and made up the other parts from leftover / un-useable Larch from my ongoing Gartside 163 build.

Cost so far

2sheets ply €38
Cable ties €8
Glass Tape €12
Epoxy- Had in stock
Polyester – in stock
Oar locks and holders €10
Aluminium primer € 30
TOTAL so far under €100

Build time so far approx 20hours

After primer I just used leftover household paint. So here she is with undercoat




I will keep you posted for a splash shortly.

Yes...when Duncan emailed me it was quite a surprise...he was already into the build. I hadn't even so much as looked at the "design" for at least 5 years and it has been there for probably 10. It was done when I was first enamored with Carene 50 and I don't even have the original file anymore...it got toasted in one of my hard drive meltdowns.
I gather from his email, Duncan found a couple of inconsistencies with the offsets for the panels... probably due to my making errors in translating the raw output from the program...many printed pages of numbers which can make you go cross eyed after a while. Anyway...Duncan altered a few of the measurements to fair out the panels...one was a small flat spot in the bottom fixed by adding 3/16" to the point coordinates and the side panel didn't quite go all the way to the top of the bow transom. Duncan kindly supplied me with the altered offsets so they will be available in the .txt file for the boat offsets.
The "plans" simply consist of the offsets for the panels and is expected to be used with standard S&G practices with an interior you supply yourself...or should I say...customize to your own tastes .

This is the picture on the page... the boat is flat bottomed aft with a dart cut into the forward section and shaped into a Vee. Looks like it came out quite good. I expect the 3/8" (9 or 10mm) was a pretty tough bend...I had originally spec'd it for 1/4" but it should be pretty bulletproof in normal use. It also should have a small skeg which I see Duncan has put on.

I would love to see some more pictures if you can Duncan.



and here is the page where the offsets are available...I haven't corrected them yet...I'll try to get to that this weekend and I'll post an update when I do. http://www.angelfire.com/ego/lewisbo...Dinghbat_a.htm and I try to update things by recreating it and running it through FreeShip...I'll get better numbers from it. I think the design displacements are off a bit...I never did really trust Carene's displacement numbers very much.

[Lewisboater]

Well waddayaknow...?! I found the original file...under a different name. Displacements are correct and here is a better rendition from FreeShip.

[Duncan S]

Dale, I think Steve has answered your questions. His design went together really well and I am delighted with it. I didn’t have any problems bending 3/8 ply to shape and it is still light. A few more coats of paint to go before we put her in the water. Nice boat BTW (the big one not the rubber tender)

Steve, more pictures on the way.

Cheers, Duncan.

[Harvey Cheyne, Jr.]

... PDR's don't have skegs - it's not class legal...

David, thank you for your reply. It's very useful to hear firsthand experience with the boat.


If only your friends had known skegs were class legal, perhaps history would be different...




"Is it OK to have a skeg on the bottom of the hull? ...
Skeg - a small fin that is fixed to the hull. Most of the time it is in the stern area, sometimes near the bow.
...
Yes - as long as the skeg is not wider than the keel width tolerance."

http://www.pdracer.com/class-rules/rule-explanations/





The important thing is, the beer... you:

...did ferry several loads of beer and ... the PDR carried plenty, and rowed ok.

Harv

[Dave Hadfield]

It'll probably be better with a skeg. I added one to my Elegant Punt. I also put a hand-hold (hole) in it, which helps greatly when you're flipping the thing over to store it on land or on deck.

Dave

[Duncan S]

I got a call today to say the headsail on the boat this tender was built to service had un-furled a bit and was flogging in the 30 knot breeze.
So the as yet un-named tender was given a premature dip and I rowed out to fix it. Twas not easy going and a bit of a slog. Not a very fair test of the boat so will report back when given a more sedate run.

Off to London for a weeks work tomorrow so you will have to wait a bit longer for photos. Sorry.
D.

[Dave Hadfield]

Rowing upwind in 30 kts is always going to hurt.

That's a good time for a ski-boat!

Dave

[wizbang 13]

" Not a very fair test of the boat"
I beg to differ.

[pumpkin]

I do exactly that, row several hundred yards to my mooring. For that I built a 10 ft punt that is superb for the job.








But before that I used a Bolger "Elegant Punt" for several years. If you want quick and cheap, but very useful, I'd recommend it. Tows well, rows well and is light enough to lift up over the rail with one hand and stow on deck. It's also a 2-sheet boat, and can be built easily in 2 weekends. And it's unlikely to be stolen, particularly if you build it with outside chines, which you should. It's only drawback is that it's noisy at anchor.

BTW -- ditto on the fore-and-aft seat plank. Far, far easier to trim the boat level. A dinghy with only one place to row from is horrible with 2 people on board -- you have a choice of the stern sticking way up in the air, or the bow.



This photo is from the internet, but shows the usefulness of that seat, and the burdensome nature of the boat. The paint is ugly, but never mind that.

It rows very well solo -- I often rowed around the anchorage just at sunset, for the pleasure of it.

Dave

Dave, how wide is that seat?

[Dave Hadfield]

I believe it's 12". I used a 1x10 x 1" pine board (finished 3/4") for lightness, and biscuit-joined an ash "outwale" onto each side for strength.

I've got long legs, so 12" isn't a factor, but 10" would probably be fine.

Dave

[pumpkin]

I believe it's 12". I used a 1x10 x 1" pine board (finished 3/4") for lightness, and biscuit-joined an ash "outwale" onto each side for strength.

I've got long legs, so 12" isn't a factor, but 10" would probably be fine.

Dave

Thanks Dave. I'll be ready to fit seats in my pram in a few weeks so I'll be scouting for a couple of 1X12's.