Australian boat building timbers

[Rainmaker]

G'day All,

I am starting the planning process to build my first wooden boat. The design leading the race at the moment is Atkin's "Good Luck", planked with plywood as opposed to solid timber.

The marine plywood shouldn't be a problem to obtain, but the solid timber for framing might be a different matter. Where I live the choice of timber from the local suppliers is very limited - pretty much just radiata pine and the all encompassing "kiln dried hardwood" - so I am going to have to look further afield to find suitable timbers. I need some help to know what timber I should be looking for, and what I am likely to find here in Australia.

I did some research and found a few Australian timbers suitable for boat building, but this info was from a timber website, not a boat building website.

Unforunately I haven't got as far as purchasing plans yet, so I don't have the designer's recommendations to compare and find Australian alternatives.

From what I have read it seems that Spotted Gum should be suitable for most of my solid timber requirements. Any thoughts? Douglas Fir (either imported or plantation grown) should be available somewhere not too far from my home, is that going to be suitable for some parts of the boat (seats, deck framing etc)?

Any advice on Australian timber choices (or at least timber available in Australia) will be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks, Kirk

[Gary Dierking]

Check out this thread. There will be plenty of info from these guys.
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...yle-day-sailer

[WX]

I used Flooded Gum (Rose Gum in QLD) for my framing. It's easy to work and will take quite a curve without steaming.
Eucalyptus grandis.

[RFNK]

It depends where you are Kirk, so, where are you? There are plenty of suppliers who can get you a good range of suitable timber but if there's a local mill you can access, then it's going to be easier for you.

Rick

[Duncan Gibbs]

Where-abouts are you Kirk? Timber availability or certain species varies greatly depending upon location. You also should ensure as much as possible that you use like-for-like in terms of the weight and mechanical properties of the timber, as well as the ability to withstand the dreaded rot spores, particularly if the boat is to be kept outside in any kind of weather.

[Larks]

Spotted gum and oregon (Douglas Fir) should be fine for your needs Kirk. I'd be inclined to give all your timbers and ply planking a good dose of Everdure throughout the build anyway, coating all edges before they are joined, covered by decking or hull planking etc and before painting over.

[Sayla]

It is dependent on specific use - and whether you tolerate some swelling (carvel), or not want some swelling - whether you want want gluability above natural oil defenses, whether it will always remain dry, whether you need steam bending properties, high strength, or low weight etc etc - there may be variety of species, as horses for courses. The requirement of modern construction (glued construction), rot resistance and low shrinkage (dimensional stability) limits selections though.

Check out this booklet for traditional boatbuilding (i.e. the timbers listed may not glue well, or require specific glueing)
http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/ass...atbuilding.pdf

Check out this Australian standard for natural durability ratings
http://www.rajalaut.com/download/AS ...ty ratings.pdf

Check out this booklet for some steam bending species
http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/ass...-of-Timber.pdf

Check these websites for good general data

http://www.dpi.qld.gov.au/26_5509.htm

http://www.woodsolutions.com.au/Wood-Species/

http://www.woodworkerssource.com/let...er=A&viewing=0

http://www.unep-wcmc-apps.org/specie...udy/pdfs/3.pdf

http://www.monarotimber.com.au/timbe..._furniture.htm

I access various suppliers, but it really depends where you are

Then there are many other species that don't seem to get listed, e.g. Red stringybark has low shrinkage compared to other similar varieties, New Guinea Rosewood (like Andaman Padauk) has good all round properties except for tight bending, and some Australian species simply haven't been grown and broadspread enough for knowledge to be disseminated

After studying everything you'll probably find Celery Top Pine hard to beat for most things, and almost as hard to get hold of without a personal trip to Tassie.

And this of course hasn't covered treated timber or plywoods

sayla

[Sayla]

So, after my big rant, I checked out Atkin's "Good Luck", "doh", and of course you don't need all that stuff I posted, but I think I'll leave it for someone doing a search for Australian Timbers on this site.
For some reason I thought it might be a cruising boat or something, and you might be looking for study resources etc.

At 13'9" Spotted Gum would seem excessive for nearly any use, being about 1000kg/m3 density (heavy timber). Most moderate weight boat-building timbers would be better suited, and unless your leaving it outside, high durability isn't so important. Meranti (from your local hardware) would work quite well for thwarts or stringers, as would Douglas Fir, or Fijian Mahogany or New Guinea Rosewood which is available through various specialist timber suppliers - Celery Top Pine would be perfect, if you can get it. They all glue well and have sufficient strength & density for the job.

sayla

[WX]

Spotted gum and oregon (Douglas Fir) should be fine for your needs Kirk. I'd be inclined to give all your timbers and ply planking a good dose of Everdure throughout the build anyway, coating all edges before they are joined, covered by decking or hull planking etc and before painting over.

I'll 2nd that, I Everdured the hull (4 coats inside and out) of Redwing and it saved her from becoming expensive firewood while under tarps for 15 years.

[andrewpatrol]

Hey guys whats Everdure, is it like CPES that everyone here keep talking about, is it easier to coat with than normal epoxy?

[Larks]

Hey guys whats Everdure, is it like CPES that everyone here keep talking about, is it easier to coat with than normal epoxy?

International Everdure, it's essentially the Australian version of CPES, or the equivalent that is available here. It is very much easier to treat timber with than regular epoxy, an easy 1:1 mix, you can paint it on, let it soak in, paint on another coat shortly after, let it go off a bit, paint on some more and so on, it will not harden in the pot quickly when mixed like epoxy will but will generally stay liquid enough for a good few hours to get a good few coats onto your timber.

http://www.yachtpaint.com/MPYACMData...Y+20110803.pdf

[Rainmaker]

Check out this thread. There will be plenty of info from these guys.
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...yle-day-sailer

Thanks for pointing out that thread Gary, I made a start but it's going to take a while to get through it all, great thread though. I did a search of the forums before I started this thread but the number of results was huge, and would take ages to sift through. Thanks very much for pointing out a useful one.

Duncan and Rick - I'm on the NSW south coast. I'm only a couple of hours from Sydney and I imagine if a timber is available in Australia, it will be available somewhere in Sydney. A few trips to the city during the build won't worry me too much. There is also a specialty timber place about an hour down the road. I had planned to give them a ring to see what they have, but wanted to have some idea what I'm after before ringing.

The boat will be stored under cover, either the garage or shed, so won't be subject to constant battering of weather.

Larks & WX - was thinking of using something similar to Everdure during the build. I have used Norseal before on wooden boat bits (and other projects), great stuff.

Sayla - thanks very much for your effort. I'll have a read thru the links, should get some good info.

Thanks all for the info and advice (and any more you wish to share!), much appreciated.

Cheers, Kirk

[Sayla]

......

Thanks all for the info and advice (and any more you wish to share!), much appreciated.

Cheers, Kirk

These people have an outlet in Sydney - I don't know if they are exclusively wholesalers, but they only sell plank stock. Depending on species anywhere from 6" to 15" x 1" to 3". They sell by the pack (generally 1-2 m3) as cheapest, off the pack (i.e. whatever is next off the top (next cheaper, semi-official), or broken pack (next price, but not by an excessive amount). I rip/mill up my own needs from planks. When I deal with them I figure out what it is I want first, make a quick call to find in general the sizes that they have it in, then work out what I'll get. Then I talk tradelike and wear my old Hard Yakka clobber in - and they sell me what I want at very reasonable prices - they sure have some stuff; dozens of species. Jarra, Mahogany, Sapele, NG Rosewood, Kauri, Kwila, Teak and I've seen lots of Doug Fir at the Brisbane warehouse - some species are only by the cube though (namely Celery Top).

http://www.brittontimbers.com.au/contact-us
---------------------------------------------------------------

Other distributors here (in Qld) are Lazarides (little bit dearer, but nearly everything that grows) and Watts Woods (broken pack Celery Top) - I'm sure there would be similar in Sydney

sayla

[gypsie]

International Everdure, it's essentially the Australian version of CPES, or the equivalent that is available here. It is very much easier to treat timber with than regular epoxy, an easy 1:1 mix, you can paint it on, let it soak in, paint on another coat shortly after, let it go off a bit, paint on some more and so on, it will not harden in the pot quickly when mixed like epoxy will but will generally stay liquid enough for a good few hours to get a good few coats onto your timber.

Sorry to side step the thread, how does Everdure behave with fiberglass? Can you use it wet out the glass?
Trev

[RFNK]

Everdure, as I understand it, is essentially epoxy resin with a solvent in it. The solvent is supposed to help the resin saturate timber by thinning the resin. As epoxy saturates FG easily anyway, I can't see any advantage in using Everdure with FG. The solvent evaporates away, leaving thin resin behind. So you get less resin left behind in the FG.

Rick

[aindrans]

Fellow Ausie,

I have a wooden Vertue that was built in Queenscliff, Victoria in 1960. The materials were:
Island Kauri Planking, Blue Gum ribs, Ironbark keel, Redgum stem and sternpost, and Teak cap rail, hatches and cockpit seats. All good Aussie timbers.

[RFNK]

Fellow Ausie,

I have a wooden Vertue that was built in Queenscliff, Victoria in 1960. The materials were:
Island Kauri Planking, Blue Gum ribs, Ironbark keel, Redgum stem and sternpost, and Teak cap rail, hatches and cockpit seats. All good Aussie timbers.

Except for the kauri and teak, right? Bet it's a nice boat!

Rick

[epoxyboy]

I used Tasmanian Oak aka Victorian Ash, which is actually a eucalypt for the stringers on a john Welsford Pathfinder, as I couldn't get any long lengths of decent staight grained NZ timber locally. It works and finishes nicely, and glued/screwed well. I have no idea if it would be appropriate for frames though.


Pete

[PeterSibley]

These people have an outlet in Sydney - I don't know if they are exclusively wholesalers, but they only sell plank stock. Depending on species anywhere from 6" to 15" x 1" to 3". They sell by the pack (generally 1-2 m3) as cheapest, off the pack (i.e. whatever is next off the top (next cheaper, semi-official), or broken pack (next price, but not by an excessive amount). I rip/mill up my own needs from planks. When I deal with them I figure out what it is I want first, make a quick call to find in general the sizes that they have it in, then work out what I'll get. Then I talk tradelike and wear my old Hard Yakka clobber in - and they sell me what I want at very reasonable prices - they sure have some stuff; dozens of species. Jarra, Mahogany, Sapele, NG Rosewood, Kauri, Kwila, Teak and I've seen lots of Doug Fir at the Brisbane warehouse - some species are only by the cube though (namely Celery Top).

http://www.brittontimbers.com.au/contact-us
---------------------------------------------------------------

Other distributors here (in Qld) are Lazarides (little bit dearer, but nearly everything that grows) and Watts Woods (broken pack Celery Top) - I'm sure there would be similar in Sydney

sayla

A good link! They certainly have a good selection.

[The Bigfella]

You can pick up plenty of Spotted Gum on the south coast. I've used plenty from there... that we milled ourselves. Aussie Barney told me of a commercial source down that way. I'll look it up

[The Bigfella]

Try this bloke

J.L. Goodsell Timber Contractors
D260 Princes Hwy.
South Nowra. 2541
ph. (02) 4421 5167
Fax. 4421 5167

[Quest]

A clarification if anyone can help. For the frames I'm going to build the designer (John Welsford) used NZ kauri along with ply webs and some full size bulkheads. Kauri is about the same density as hoop pine which I have used before on another part of the build. I was intending to use clear hoop pine for the sawn frames (20mm thick, with doublers and one or two triple laminations). Would this suit or should I go for a heavier timber?

Frames will be epoxy or everdure coated fully inside, outside two layers of 9mm ply with glass over that.

[Sayla]

A clarification if anyone can help. For the frames I'm going to build the designer (John Welsford) used NZ kauri along with ply webs and some full size bulkheads. Kauri is about the same density as hoop pine which I have used before on another part of the build. I was intending to use clear hoop pine for the sawn frames (20mm thick, with doublers and one or two triple laminations). Would this suit or should I go for a heavier timber?

Frames will be epoxy or everdure coated fully inside, outside two layers of 9mm ply with glass over that.

It really depends on the size of the boat - for sawn frames in a medium+ boat, I think New Guinea rosewood is worth a look - very rot resistant, very low shrinkage, very stable (used for external building joinery), moderate weight (600-650 kg/m3), glues well, and not very expensive - here anyway - (just doesn't bend very well, a bit stiff / brittle when bent)
I don't often see clear hoop sold very cheap - what would you expect to pay / m3 ?

sayla

[Quest]

150mm x 20mm finished on the two large faces is about $8 per linear metre roughly at Lazarides.

[PeterSibley]

It really depends on the size of the boat - for sawn frames in a medium+ boat, I think New Guinea rosewood is worth a look - very rot resistant, very low shrinkage, very stable (used for external building joinery), moderate weight (600-650 kg/m3), glues well, and not very expensive - here anyway - (just doesn't bend very well, a bit stiff / brittle when bent)
I don't often see clear hoop sold very cheap - what would you expect to pay / m3 ?

sayla

SS Timbers at Gympie for hoop for you Sayla. I'll continue to use my stash of old demo hoop lining boards, absolutely clear old growth with one nail every 5 foot .

[purri]

Niugini Rosewood is best utilised as a decorative timber, think of coamings, coach houses and interior trim. It can be quite greasy like spotty and tallowood and is reminiscent of teak in its properties. Mind you it usually has some cranky spots.