CEDAR! Who has it?!

[brdsquib]

As I'm sure many of you know, decent cedar is hard to come by nowadays. I am in the middle of a restoration of an OLD catboat (Crosby D-class) and have to replace some planks. I'm looking at 3/4" thick planks. I can plane it down to what I need. The kicker is I need some wide stuff. We're talking 12" wide and it has to run about 15 ft. Better yet, I need at least 4 of these, although I'd like to get 6 in case I run into some problems with the other side of the boat. Also, anybody got any thoughts on laminated ribs? Thanks!

[brdsquib]

I'm on Cape Cod, so the closer to home I can find it, the better!

[wizbang 13]

I have thoughts on laminated ribs.
Laminated planks too!

[brdsquib]

I'm all ears (or eyes in this situation). Whatcha got?

[upchurchmr]

Brdsquib,

I just finished a Kayak and had to do some cedar laminations for the coaming. This was really thin stuff due to the small radius's. I used epoxy to be sure it held - no problem with doing it. All of my wood was from Home Depot - I had to pick thru every piece over a period of months, but it was finally enough.

Cedar works just fine for laminations, in thin strips you waste a lot of wood, but I wasn't willing to pay 4X for sight unseen "clear" lumber that a specialty yard would not guarantee no knots.

Alternatively, all the Tsumami debris from Japan will have a lot of really nice wood. Having lived there, all the really good lumber goes there since they will pay for the best to use in their traditional style homes. You just need a boat and lots of time, or wait a little longer when it washes up on BC Canada, Washington and Oregon states. Sorry I couldn't help myself. But really, you have never seen such absolutely beautiful wood as over there. I one time tried to special order some from Canada, and they told me I needed to order in tractor trailer quantities, and they would have to specially set some aside, and I might not get as good as their regular customers (Japan).

[wizbang 13]

I have laminated frames in numerous boats and types of boats , if you have rotten /broken oak frames, it is fast and easy. compared to...
Anyway, my first thought concerning 12 or 15 inch wide planks is " good ol days" , I would just use more , narrow planks.
Do you have a thread about your old catboat? or pics anywhere yet?

[Thad]

Maybe Will Poliquin still answers 800 441 3630. He's in Exeter RI.

[James McMullen]

. . . Tsunami debris from Japan. . .

I am planning a trip this summer to the outer coast of Vancouver island myself. . . . . . .
Just sayin'.

[SMARTINSEN]

Have you checked in the advertising sections of WB magazine? There is a sawyer in VT, I do believe.

[JimConlin]

Call Will Armster. He's in Madison, CT.
http://www.whitecedar.com/

[Mrleft8]

Call Will Armster. He's in Madison, CT.
http://www.whitecedar.com/

You won't talk to Wil 99% of the time. His wife usually answers the phone, and information gathering from her can be an adventure. I talked to her yesterday and in the space of 4 minutes got 3 different answers to a question about availability and price of 4/4X8"X14' Northern White Cedar.
Unfortunately this is not uncommon with her. But they do usually have it. You just have to actually go there and pick through their terrifyingly unstable stacks of lumber yourself, and don't expect to pay what you were told you would be paying. Sometimes it's less, sometimes it's more.

[brdsquib]

I spoke with White Cedar. They just sold the last of their 1x12x16. Sucks. One of the fellas I work with thinks he might be able to get some from a place in RI. I'm not so sure. I was told 4-5 dollars per BF was the norm, but every place I contacted kind of laughed at me. Seems prices have almost doubled. I did look at WB's section of advertising. I didn't get much there for my area. Time will tell.

[Thad]

Will Poliquin, I repeat -- did you try?

[brdsquib]

I just spoke with Will. Sounds like that will all work out great. Thank you Thad.

[Thad]

Good! Say hello!

[rvanvoris]

Wood Steel and Glass
9 Old Boston Post Road Madison, CT 06443
(203) 245-1781
This is a company I have had very good luck with. They delivered to me at West Falmouth on the Cape
They have Atlantic White cedar
Wood Lumber in Falmouth has Port Orford Cedar it is used for decking and I know some boatbuilders, Damian McLoughan for one use it for planking
Personally I like the Atlantic White, it is easier to work and it smells better.

[Doug B]

What is a Crosby D class catboat?

[woodpile]

Tweedie lumber, Thorndike, Me. Built a 16' strip hull with his lumber, good quality, good selection, good price.

http://www.tweedielumber.com/

[brdsquib]

What is a Crosby D class catboat?

A Crosby D Class is a catboat that was popular in in the Quincy area. They are about 25 feet long from stern to stem, but have a bowsprit that extends an additional 16ft. This is the only one still out there that I know of. I've only seen paintings of them. I never thought them to actually exist. I'll try to keep everyone up to date with pictures. I might be able to get my hands on an original photo of her when she was launched originally.

[brdsquib]

Does anyone have any experience with reversing edge-glued planks? The planks on this boat are bonded together with epoxy. She sat on land for about 3 years and ended up extremely dried out. They packed the DRY seams with what looks like West System with a dark color filler. When the boat swelled up the boards cupped as they had no where to go. I am pulling some planks as they need to be replaced (2,3,4, and 5) but 6,7, and 8 are where the cupping is. I plan on packing my new seams with cotton and probably Sikaflex. I am just wondering if I should be looking into running a blade through the other seams on the bottom to help the boards with the swelling. I've never worked on a boat with edge-glued seams, but this was obviously done wrong if there are boards cupping.

[BostonIrish]

Did you ever find the cedar ? Im looking for a 1x12x16 for a kayak project.The box stores like Home Depot and Lowes have a horrible selection of Cedar.Its all full of knots, I priced some smaller boards that i would have to scarf together and it was around $150 bucks for the 2 boards.Someone mentioned the Wood Lumber in Falmouth...???

[brdsquib]

You're not going to find it. You have to have someone mill it for you. The fella I am working with called Will Poliquin and got us 8 pieces of 1x12x16. It's swamp cedar from Florida. Really not bad stuff. I think it's going to work out great. Will mills the stuff himself at his shop in RI. You have to call him and let him know what you're looking for, and then when it's ready, you go pick it up. Only thing I need now is some good grain white oak.

[Hunky Dory]

Check Bottello's with in Mashpee, I just picked up a 1x10x10 but they had 1x12's also. Nice clear straight grain white cedar. I didn't check on long stock but they had quite a bit.

[Jay Greer]

Could you use Port Orford? I have a buddy who has a stash here in Port Townsend.
Jay

[BostonIrish]

Thanks, what were they charging for those boards?The crap I bought at Lowes is full of knots.

[Jay Greer]

You would have to speak with the guy who has it. Contact me privatly and I will put you in touch.
Jay

[BostonIrish]

Check Bottello's with in Mashpee, I just picked up a 1x10x10 but they had 1x12's also. Nice clear straight grain white cedar. I didn't check on long stock but they had quite a bit.

What did the 1x10x10 cost you...?

[Hunky Dory]

What did the 1x10x10 cost you...?

$50.00

[brdsquib]

I am uneasy about buying lumber for a boat from a home center. For one, quality. But for two, if it is indeed the cut I need.

I haven't heard of anyone using Port Orford on a boat before. I know many guys are very picky about the cedar they put on their boat. But my not hearing about Port Orford may certainly due to my young age.

[Ian McColgin]

When the time comes there are lots of resourses on-Cape for suitable soft, whether cedar or some alternative, wood for splines. Splining could be a super way to do a cat since the hull stresses are all hydrodynamic except in the very bow, where you might put some internal stays from the step to the shelf-clamp-partners connection to translate the mast's twisting strains.

[wizbang 13]

Port Orford Cedar is , or was, the #1 choice out west for things nautipickle.
Which may be why it is rare today.

[Bob Smalser]

Does anyone have any experience with reversing edge-glued planks? The planks on this boat are bonded together with epoxy. She sat on land for about 3 years and ended up extremely dried out. They packed the DRY seams with what looks like West System with a dark color filler. When the boat swelled up the boards cupped as they had no where to go. I am pulling some planks as they need to be replaced (2,3,4, and 5) but 6,7, and 8 are where the cupping is. I plan on packing my new seams with cotton and probably Sikaflex. I am just wondering if I should be looking into running a blade through the other seams on the bottom to help the boards with the swelling. I've never worked on a boat with edge-glued seams, but this was obviously done wrong if there are boards cupping.

I've ground Skil Saw blades to a tapered cutting edge and power-reefed glued seams with them. A good local sharpening service can grind (or make) the blades for you if you don't want to grind them yourself, and the depth-of-cut used creates the shape of a caulking seam. Following up with caulking cotton driven by an iron usually separates the planks so the cotton can act as a gasket, allowing seasonal movement without cupping or splitting. I tacked on battens to guide the saw, but you'll have to decide how to best execute the cuts on your hull.

"Splining" (sic) seams by gluing a wedge to both plank edges is a bad idea without a full evaluation of your planking wood. Whether the wedge is soft cedar or hard epoxy is meaningless, as you are still gluing together a huge, solid-wood panel without giving it any room to move seasonally. With vertical grain stock of the most seasonally stable species in a climate without large humidity swings, it has been known to work. With flatsawn stock of heavier, less stable woods it can be a disaster, and by the end of this summer there will be the usual parade of posters here who want advice on fixing the planking cracks occurring on the sunny side of their mooring.

If it were my boat I'd convert all those seams back to cotton-caulked carvel. If age and drying have caused too large a gap for a proper caulking seam once all the epoxy filler is removed, then long wedges of the same species of wood can be glued in to one plank edge as fillers, followed by caulking the seam normally. What worked well for the 40 generations of successful boatbuilders between Sinbad and the Goo Brothers strangely works well today, too.

Order of Stability in Wood Species

Percent Shrinkage Green to Oven Dry as an Indicator of Relative Seasonal Stability


Radial… Tangential… (R+T)/2
(Quartersawn) (Flatsawn) (Riftsawn)

Northern White Cedar 2.2… 4.9… 3.5
Honduras Mahogany 3.0… 4.1… 3.5
Khaya 2.5… 4.5… 3.5
Redwood, 2d Growth 2.2… 4.9… 3.5
Western Red Cedar 2.4… 5.0… 3.7
Eastern Red Cedar 3.1… 4.7… 3.9
Atlantic White Cedar 2.9… 5.4… 4.1
Eastern White Pine 2.1… 6.1… 4.1
Teak 2.5… 5.8… 4.15
Incense Cedar 3.3… 5.2… 4.25
Alaska Yellow Cedar 2.8… 6.0… 4.4
Purpleheart 3.2… 6.1… 4.65
South American Cedar 4.0… 6.0… 5.0
Iroko 4.0… 6.0… 5.0
Sassafras 4.0… 6.2… 5.1
Okoume 4.1… 6.1… 5.1
Spanish Cedar 4.2… 6.3… 5.25
Black Cherry 3.7… 7.1… 5.4
Black Spruce 4.1… 6.8… 5.45
Tamarack 3.7… 7.4… 5.55
Baldcypress 3.8… 6.2… 5.6
Port Orford Cedar 4.6… 6.9… 5.75
Dark Red Meranti 3.8… 7.9… 5.85
Black Locust 4.6… 7.2… 5.9
Sitka Spruce 4.3… 7.5… 5.9
Sapele 4.6… 7.4… 6.0
Douglas Fir 4.8… 7.6… 6.2
Longleaf Pine 5.1… 7.5… 6.3
White Ash 4.9… 7.8… 6.35
Black Ash 5.0… 7.8… 6.4
Yellow Poplar 4.6… 8.2… 6.4
Rock Elm 4.8… 8.1… 6.45
Slash Pine 5.4… 7.6… 6.5
Apitong 4.6… 8.2… 6.5
Light Red Meranti 4.6… 8.5… 6.55
Black Walnut 5.5… 7.8… 6.65
Tangile 4.3… 9.1… 6.7
Western Larch 4.5… 9.1… 6.8
Angelique 4.6… 8.2… 7.0
Ipe 6.6… 8.0… 7.3
White Oak 5.3… 9.1… 8.0
Live Oak 6.6… 9.5… 8.0,
Greenheart 8.8… 9.6… 9.2