Zimmerman/Trayvon Debate

[Horace]

Does everyone agree that Zimmerman followed Martin?

Tentatively, yes. Edited to add—Prompted by Shang's reference to the 911 recording, I listened to the conversation between Zimmerman and the 911 dispatcher again. Now I'm even less sure: it depends on where the struggle and shooting occurred in relation to Zimmerman's parked pickup.

[SamSam]

Wow. Latino on Black violence, or Black on Latino violence, is Whitey's fault.

Damn it's hard, just to be a decent Cracker.

It is what it is. Pretend it doesn't exist if it makes you happy.

[S.V. Airlie]

Okay, several here have watched the video. Handcuffs do not nec mean someone has been arrested, but to what I have seen, the person is at least detained and perhaps questioned. Second point, did anyone see his nose on the video. It was supposedly broken and I suspect a "frontal" view would show that one way or the other. Has the EMT who cleaned him up, written up the injuries and are they known? just questions not trying to condon him either way...

[Shang]

Scalp wounds usually bleed a lot.
And when ever I've had my nose broken my face looked like a coyote-kill.

But in the police station security camera videos thirty minutes after the "life or death struggle," Zimmerman has no visible blood on his face or clothes.

Zimmerman and his supporters are lying.

[S.V. Airlie]

I guess it depends on the severity of the scalp wounds and if they are evident after being cleaned up. They all have to bleed a lot. I'd be interested in the amount of time between the time he was picked up, the medical assistance he received, and the video. You appear to agree that a brken nose would be evident if there was a video of his face. Again, playing devil's advocate here and nothing more.I've been hit (talons out) by some pretty pissed off ospreys that bled a lot.far worse than they appeared actually, a little clean up voila!

[Horace]

Scalp wounds usually bleed a lot.
And when ever I've had my nose broken my face looked like a coyote-kill.

But in the police station security camera videos thirty minutes after the "life or death struggle," Zimmerman has no visible blood on his face or clothes.

Zimmerman and his supporters are lying.

Shang, from what source do you derive your time line?

And who are Zimmerman's "supporters," and what are they lying about?

[Flying Orca]

I'll admit this hasn't had a huge amount of play on the news websites I frequent, and I don't do TV news of any kind let alone American, so I may be a bit late to the party. That being said, it sounds to me like a vigilante shot and killed an unarmed minor who had not committed any crime. How could anyone possibly defend that? How is it possible that the vigilante has not been charged in the minor's death?

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

I concur with what Orca writes; it does seem very strange.

[Donn]

I concur with what Orca writes; it does seem very strange.

And, Amanda Knox is guilty.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

And, Amanda Knox is guilty.

No she is not. You should be more careful, Donn.

She is innocent, just like OJ Simpson and George Zimmerman.

[Donn]

You should be more careful, Donn.

You should be less circumstantial, Andrew. It isn't a case of "innocent until Andrew believes you to be guilty."

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Tentatively, yes. Edited to add—Prompted by Shang's reference to the 911 recording, I listened to the conversation between Zimmerman and the 911 dispatcher again. Now I'm even less sure: it depends on where the struggle and shooting occurred in relation to Zimmerman's parked pickup.

Look, we know from Zimmerman's phone calls he was following Martin.
There are statements from him that he saw Martin as suspicious.
There are statements on the audio, that are contested,where he refered to Martin as a "coon".
Any prosecutor will infer Zimmerman's actions were the instigation of what led up to Martin's shooting and that Zimmerman had a dislike for Martin based upon his race.
We know Zimmerman was armed and there is no evidence Martin was armed.
What we don't know is what actually occured at the point of confrontation.
Would Zimmerman's defense be based on the "Stand your Ground" statute when the prosecution could jump on that and say Martin, being confronted by someone with a gun, had the right to stand his ground", too, even if it was foolish to do so? Or possibly that Martin, being trapped in a deadly confrontation had no choice but to fight for his life.
Personally, I woud think any prosecutor worth his salt would be happy as pie to try this case. It has the potential for a murder conviction or any number of lesser convictions brought about by the accused instigating an unnecessary confrontation that resulted in a homicide.
Even if Zimmerman beats the rap in Florida there seems to be enough evidence to try him federally for a hate crime. He will see the slammer sooner or later.

Dream about Zimmerman's pick-up all you like. It's not likely to make a difference if Zimmerman is tried.

[Shang]

FOX NEWS:
The funeral director who oversaw slain teenager Trayvon Martin's burial says the body bore no signs of a fight.
Richard Kurtz says there were no notable marks on Martin's hands, face or body other than the gunshot wound that killed him. Kurtz says he expected to see some marks if Martin had been in a fight.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/03/31...#ixzz1qihtkVZN

[wardd]

And, Amanda Knox is guilty.

she was set free by a court of law, has that happened to zimmerman yet?

[Horace]

But in the police station security camera videos thirty minutes after the "life or death struggle," Zimmerman has no visible blood on his face or clothes.

Zimmerman and his supporters are lying.

Shang, from what source do you derive your time line?

And who are Zimmerman's "supporters," and what are they lying about?

[wardd]

Shang, from what source do you derive your time line?

And who are Zimmerman's "supporters," and what are they lying about?

i've heard 38 mins

[Shang]

Shang, from what source do you derive your time line?

And who are Zimmerman's "supporters," and what are they lying about?

The time-line is from Nancy Grace’s March 30th report. http://nancygrace.blogs.cnn.com/2012...irt/?hpt=ng_t4

His supporters include his father, his brother, and a friend, all of whom have appeared on television asserting Zimmerman's innocence although non of these seem to have any actual knowledge of the events.

[jack grebe]

my thoughts, but if there were people that knew GZ, and really
believed he was innocent......they would be coming out of the
woodwork to bask in the media stage.

[Horace]

Look, we know from Zimmerman's phone calls......Dream about Zimmerman's pick-up all you like. It's not likely to make a difference if Zimmerman is tried.

Look, we know from Zimmerman's phone calls he was following Martin.

No, we know (or can reasonably infer) that Z[immerman] was observing him. There is only Z's answer in the following exchange that suggests he might have followed him: D.-- “Are you following him?” Z.--“Yeah.” D.--“We don't need you to do that.” Z.--“Okay.”

Hence my remark about the proximity of the pickup to the struggle scene.

There are statements from him that he saw Martin as suspicious.
There are statements on the audio, that are contested,where he refered to Martin as a "coon".

Or 'goon' or 'punk.' Agreed.

Any prosecutor will infer Zimmerman's actions were the instigation of what led up to Martin's shooting …..

The original prosecutor did not.

….and that Zimmerman had a dislike for Martin based upon his race.

That, my boy, is your dream. There appears to be plenty of commentary by acquaintances of Z to the contrary.

We know Zimmerman was armed and there is no evidence Martin was armed.
What we don't know is what actually occured at the point of confrontation.

Wholeheartedly agree.

Would Zimmerman's defense be based on the "Stand your Ground" statute when the prosecution could jump on that and say Martin, being confronted by someone with a gun.....

Did Martin know Zimmerman had a pistol?

....had the right to stand his ground", too, even if it was foolish to do so? Or possibly that Martin, being trapped in a deadly confrontation had no choice but to fight for his life.

Aren't these some of the unresolved issues?

Personally, I woud think any prosecutor worth his salt would be happy as pie to try this case.

At least one so far was not.

It has the potential for a murder conviction or any number of lesser convictions brought about by the accused instigating an unnecessary confrontation that resulted in a homicide.
Even if Zimmerman beats the rap in Florida there seems to be enough evidence to try him federally for a hate crime. He will see the slammer sooner or later.
Dream about Zimmerman's pick-up all you like. It's not likely to make a difference if Zimmerman is tried.

If true believers such as yourself are the only arbiters, that will surely be true.

[Shang]

Here is a copy of the Sanford Police Report of the incident:

http://cnninsession.files.wordpress....olicreport.pdf

[Horace]

my thoughts, but if there were people that knew GZ, and really
believed he was innocent......they would be coming out of the
woodwork to bask in the media stage.

Think about the absurdity of that statement, especially in light of the experiences of the non-related Zimmermans peripherally--and unwillingly--involved in this story.

[David G]

One conservative voice - from the American Spectator:

http://spectator.org/archives/2012/0...trayvon-martin

Mostly he just regrets that Republicans chose to make an issue of something that was so clearly unnecessary for them to get involved in. He's especially rueful that they've once again chosen the wrong side.

In any case, why do Republicans have to get involved in this mess? Wouldn't it be better to utter a few words of regret and move on to something more political? But no, good old Newt can't miss the chance to alienate three-quarters of the American population. What sets him off is President Obama's comment, "If I had a son, he would look just like Trayvon Martin." What's wrong with that? When President Obama went to Israel he said, "If somebody shot rockets at my house where my two daughters were sleeping at night, I'd do everything in my power to stop them." Was that introducing sex and religion into international relations? No, he was just empathizing. That's what Presidents are supposed to do.

But old Newt can't let that pass. Like a big, lazy trout he jumps for the bait. Obama's comment is "disgraceful" and "appalling," "trying to turn this into a racial issue." Good old Rick Santorum isn't far behind, accusing Obama of "introducing divisive rhetoric." So all of a sudden, it's Obama versus the Republicans with three-quarters of the population on Obama's side.

Look, just because President Obama says something doesn't mean it's wrong. Let's not be naïve. George Zimmerman introduced race into the incident at the beginning when he decided to follow Martin because of the way he looked. If Martin had been a white preppie in a suit and tie, he never would have given him a second glance. Zimmerman is now trying to play this game himself, arguing that he couldn't have done anything wrong because he's half Hispanic. Let's just forget all this pedigree stuff and concentrate on what happened.

But sure enough, once Newt has served up the ball, conservative commentators are rushing to Zimmerman's side, trying to defend him from "scapegoating." Rush Limbaugh says Obama is just using the case as a "political opportunity" and wonders why everyone is so excited about something that happened a month ago. Dennis Prager says Obama has "disgraced the Presidency" and compares Zimmerman to the falsely accused Duke rapists.

Geraldo Rivera even suggests Martin brought it all on himself by wearing a hood. Glenn Beck discovers the kid was suspended from school for traces of marijuana. (Twenty percent of the youth population could be nailed on that one.) Then there are rumors that he was caught with some jewelry, that he entered an unauthorized school area and even wrote "W.T.F." on a door. (The Sanford police have been good at leaking all this.) And all this is supposed to suggest he deserved to be shot?

[Horace]

Here is a copy of the Sanford Police Report of the incident:

http://cnninsession.files.wordpress....olicreport.pdf

Shang, all those papers were completed in the early morning of the day following the shooting, 6+ hours later. I don't see any mention of the time Zimmerman was taken to the police station in these reports, nor did I see any mention of time line in the link to Nancy Grace's show, although I did see several obvious errors and misstatements there.

I am however certain you linked to them for a purpose, so if I've missed the reference, please direct me to it.

[SaltyBoatr]

Would Zimmerman's defense be based on the "Stand your Ground" statute when the prosecution could jump on that and say Martin, being confronted by someone with a gun, had the right to stand his ground", too, even if it was foolish to do so?

The 'stand your ground' law makes prosecuting Zimmerman for a crime very very difficult.

[Horace]

The 'stand your ground' law makes prosecuting Zimmerman for a crime very very difficult.

Pray tell us how.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

The 'stand your ground' law makes prosecuting Zimmerman for a crime very very difficult.

That's not very explianatory.
The question is why.
Why is Zimmerman given that right but not Martin?
Being unarmed Martin had much more to fear.
Doesn't the deceased get a chit for going down fighting?
If what you say is true it seems the last man standing will always get a free pass. The law becomes a "winner take all" game.

[David G]

Another conservative voice - from Taki's:

http://takimag.com/article/trayvonno...#axzz1qj6WEDUv

I agree with him that there's a dearth of open-minded, even-handed, let's wait till all the facts are in, coverage on this event. Of course, then the author goes on to be anything but. But his slanted look is by way of pointing out that there is definitely a 'script' being created about this event... and pieces that don't fit the script are too-conveniently ignored by some.

For myself, I applaud those (unlike the local police) who are wanting to investigate this tragic occurrence. I deplore all the spin and the leaping to conclusions - from both sides. I am quite glad that any number of people are willing to raise a ruckus until this thing is followed through to the end. I hate that so many are willing to jump to the end before all the investigation is done.

[Shang]

Shang, all those papers were completed in the early morning of the day following the shooting, 6+ hours later. I don't see any mention of the time Zimmerman was taken to the police station in these reports, nor did I see any mention of time line in the link to Nancy Grace's show, although I did see several obvious errors and misstatements there.

I am however certain you linked to them for a purpose, so if I've missed the reference, please direct me to it.

No, Horace, I didn't "link" the police report to anything in particular, I thought it might be of general interest in the context of this present discussion.

[Shang]

Here is Zimmerman's father's account:

http://www.hlntv.com/article/2012/03...ose-was-broken

[Phillip Allen]

and as expected, the bilge has divided up (approximately) according to faith

[Mrleft8]

and as expected, the bilge has divided up (approximately) according to faith

Faith? Where does faith come into it?

[Phillip Allen]

Faith? Where does faith come into it?

I had hoped someone would ask that

faith... in this case... generally speaking (allowed because everyone seems to be speaking in general terms) is that all liberals believe (faith) that all whites, who are not liberals, hate blacks... no proof needed beyond that faith

how's that for faith?

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

I may be being very, very dim, here. Bear with me; I am the father of a sweet-buying, hoodie-wearing, brown skinned. 17 year old, who chats to his girlfriend on his mobile phone whlst walking around a neighbourhood watch area, so, just maybe, I am prejudiced.

But I really don't like the sort of person who takes it upon himself to act as "neigbourhood watch leader" (note - he had no followers!),who patrols" "his" area with a gun in his pocket and who, follows, harasses, shoots and kills an innocent teenager.

And I reallly don't like him getting away with it.

Zimmerman and his like are creepy.

[Mrleft8]

I had hoped someone would ask that

faith... in this case... generally speaking (allowed because everyone seems to be speaking in general terms) is that all liberals believe (faith) that all whites, who are not liberals, hate blacks... no proof needed beyond that faith

how's that for faith?

I think that you, sir, are guilty of painting a great number of people with a broad brush.
I for one do not believe that you, for instance, hate all blacks, but I do believe that you do not view yourself as a "liberal" (Although I do view you as a liberal).

[Phillip Allen]

I may be being very, very dim, here. Bear with me; I am the father of a sweet-buying, hoodie-wearing, brown skinned. 17 year old, who chats to his girlfriend on his mobile phone whlst walking around a neighbourhood watch area, so, just maybe, I am prejudiced.

But I really don't like the sort of person who takes it upon himself to act as "neigbourhood watch leader" (note - he had no followers!),who patrols" "his" area with a gun in his pocket vigilantes and who, follows, harasses, shoots and kills an innocent teenager.

And I reallly don't like him getting away with it.

Zimmerman and his like are creepy.

you certainly would be excused jury duty in this case...

take heart though... all this talk has proceeded any trial... it takes time for these things to sort themselves out and a lot of us bilge rats are running around with torches and pitchforks and ropes at the moment... I see a lot of mob-think

[Phillip Allen]

I think that you, sir, are guilty of painting a great number of people with a broad brush.
I for one do not believe that you, for instance, hate all blacks, but I do believe that you do not view yourself as a "liberal" (Although I do view you as a liberal).

just making a point for the 'white guy hates the black guy' bunch down here... I think their own racial 'slip' is showing
I pointed out it is 'generally speaking' to get any smart people's attention... only the smart ones are likely to notice

[Flying Orca]

a lot of us bilge rats are running around with torches and pitchforks and ropes at the moment... I see a lot of mob-think

OK, Phillip, you're tossing around a lot of racist this, racist that, but let's leave any question of racism aside for a moment. I asked a couple of questions earlier; how do you answer them? Here they are, in case you missed them:

It sounds to me like a vigilante shot and killed an unarmed minor who had not committed any crime. How could anyone possibly defend that? How is it possible that the vigilante has not been charged in the minor's death?

[Phillip Allen]

OK, Phillip, you're tossing around a lot of racist this, racist that, but let's leave any question of racism aside for a moment. I asked a couple of questions earlier; how do you answer them? Here they are, in case you missed them:

pretty simple really. I think I have already addressed that pair of questions early in this thread... I (we) don't know... yet

any guesses I make will be just as prejudiced as the other guessers here... sorry but we cannot demand instant gratification in this case... well, on second thought, we CAN demand it but we still won't get it

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

People who act as vigilantes are exposing themselves to the risk of being treated as they treat others.

Clearly, in this case, the legal system has failed.

Now, what was the definition of "lynching", again...

[PeterSibley]

I'd like your thoughts of the kid being the one standing his ground under Zimmerman's description of events, or as to how we find an unbiased jury.

Yep ,that's the scenario that I've been thinking of . I wonder how that would fly?

[Phillip Allen]

People who act as vigilantes are exposing themselves to the risk of being treated as they treat others.

Clearly, in this case, the legal system has failed.

Now, what was the definition of "lynching", again...

in this case, Andrew, 'lynching' is what some here want to happen (figuritively) before evidence MIGHT get his head out of the noose they want round his neck... it is in this regard that I have accused some of racism without being spedcific... not being specific is intended to allow room for them to retreat from their dubious position

repeating... we don't have all the evidence yet so we should not rush to do a lynching

[Flying Orca]

*scratches head* But we know a vigilante shot and killed an unarmed kid...

[Phillip Allen]

That's why I added the "if it's true". Just because some head on tv makes a statement does not automatically validate it.

I'd like your thoughts of the kid being the one standing his ground under Zimmerman's description of events, or as to how we find an unbiased jury.

I believe I was the one who brought that up way back in the begining of the 'general' debate (different thread)

[PeterSibley]

in this case, Andrew, 'lynching' is what some here want to happen (figuritively) before evidence MIGHT get his head out of the noose they want round his neck... it is in this regard that I have accused some of racism without being spedcific... not being specific is intended to allow room for them to retreat from their dubious position

repeating... we don't have all the evidence yet so we should not rush to do a lynching

I don't have any interest in lynching anyone Phillip, I DO have considerable concern about a situation where an unarmed teenager can be shot to death in the street by a self appointed 'guardian' with apparent legal sanction.

It sounds as if there is something very sick beneath the surface .

[Donn]

*scratches head* But we know a vigilante shot and killed an unarmed kid...

But you don't know the circumstances of the shooting, and until you do, you can't assume anything about guilt.

[Phillip Allen]

I don't have any interest in lynching anyone Phillip, I DO have considerable concern about a situation where an unarmed teenager can be shot to death in the street by a self appointed 'guardian' with apparent legal sanction.

It sounds as if there is something very sick beneath the surface .

for that to be true, youi must make a series of assumptions... that is what I'm trying to talk us out of

[Flying Orca]

But you don't know the circumstances of the shooting, and until you do, you can't assume anything about guilt.

Is there a set of circumstances you think could excuse the shooting and killing of an unarmed kid? I may have a faulty imagination, but I am having a hard time coming up with any.

[John Smith]

Does everyone agree that Zimmerman followed Martin?

That seems obvious from the tapes we've heard.

That is why I posted that Martin may have been standing his ground. This law has been looked at only from the side of the shooter, not the victim.

If one stands his ground and it gets him killed, does the killer still get to use this law as a defense?

[Donn]

Is there a set of circumstances you think could excuse the shooting and killing of an unarmed kid? I may have a faulty imagination, but I am having a hard time coming up with any.

Sure...assault. If the kid attacked Zimmerman, and he was in fear of his safety, Florida's law allows him to use any means at hand to stem the assault.

[Peerie Maa]

Sorry, but the Stand your Ground laws change that. If one feels threatened, deadly force is okay.

That's why, in my previous post I ask who felt threatened: the guy with the gun following the "suspicious" kid, or the kid that was being followed. If we accept, totally, Zimmeran's description of the events, the Trayvon was the one standing his ground.

Insane laws pushed by the gun addicts.

In which case the Stand your Ground law is corrupt and makes US law an ass. Would it allow some one to shoot a "suspect" in the back? Does it have any limitations at all to mitigate its stupidity?