I'll try another gun safety thread... without rancor

[Phillip Allen]

Have to strongly dissagree with you, Phillip, about the Boy Scouts' disasociation with the NRA. Gun safety is not space science; the BSA are entirely capable of teaching gun safeety without the NRA. Most of what I learned about safety was at a BSA Summer Camp in the 1950's. When I was several years older I graduated to working with boats at that camp, while my next younger brother worked on the Rifle range. The BSA have a Marksmanship Metit Badge and I'll bet much of its contents exactly mirrors NRA policies, minum the POLITICS.

The NRA made their own bed with their politics. Now they can lie in it.

Some parents worry a bit about their kids handling 22 rifles at a BSA Camp. As an adult Leader, I knew a few of them. If those same parents have worries about the NRA, it's a double whammy against teaching their kids something about how to hndle a rifle safely.

I, too, was in scouts... the guidelines came from the NRA... do we want to argue this down to the minutia?

[Nicholas Scheuer]

Don't know whether you were in scouts as an adult, or not, but with your background in the NRA you should be able to easily understand why the BSA disassociated their relationship with the NRA. BTW, the BSA would never "kick out" the NRA. First, the NRA did not "belong to" the BSA, so what's to get "kicked out" of? Second, the BSA has always been sensitive to how political relationships relate to their own image with the public, and if they needed to announce their "disassociation with the NRA", they would get a "Mitt Romney type" to do a busiesslike job it.

The NRA started making their bed with Carlton Heston's "Cold Dead Hands" routine. Now the NRA must live with the outcome when an organisation like the BSA moves on.

I know the NRA helped write BSA safety policies. I earned an NRA Safe Hunter card as a kid at Scout Camp. But it's not like the BSA have to lean on the NRA for gun safety forever. The BSA wrote their own swim and boat activity policies, and they have proven to be extreemly effective over many decades. As a teen, I was schooled in water activity safety at Schiff Scout Reservation in New Jersey by the fellow who wrote those policies. He knew his onions. My trip there from Indiana to attend a week of Junior Leadership Training was one of the outstanding experiences in my lifetime.

The BSA can maintain their gun safety programs quite well without acknowledging the NRA. Like I said, it's not space science.

[Donn]

Don't whether you in scouts as an adult, or not, but with your background in the NRA you should be able to easily understand why the BSA disassociated their relationship with the NRA. BTW, the BSA would never "kick out" the NRA. First, the NRA did not "belong to" the BSA, so what's to get "kicked out" of? Second, the BSA has always been sensitive to how political relationships relate to their own image with the public, and if they needed to announce their "disassociation with the NRA", they would get a "Mitt Romney type" to do a busiesslike job it.

The NRA started making their bed with Carlton Heston's "Cold Dead Hands" routine. Now the NRA must live with the outcome when an organisation like the BSA moves on.

I know the NRA helped write BSA safety policies. I earned an NRA Safe Hunter card as a kid at Scout Camp. But it's not like the BSA have to lean on the NRA for gun safety forever. The BSA wrote their own swim and boat activity policies, and they have proven to be extreemly effective over many decades. As a teen, I was schooled in water activity safety at Schiff Scout Reservation in New Jersey by the fellow who wrote those policies. He knew his onions. My trip there from Indiana to attend a week of Junior Leadership Training was one of the outstanding experiences in my lifetime.

The BSA can maintain their gun safety programs quite well without acknowledging the NRA. Like I said, it's not space science.

[SIC]

There's just too many errors in that post to bother correcting them, but it's so bad it's worth saving. You really shouldn't post when you're in this condition.

FWIW...I've been an NRA instructor for quite a few years now, and there is no politics in their training programs, at all. The political arm is quite separate from the training and safety arm. Just thought you ought to know.

[Nicholas Scheuer]

Do tell, Donn. The NRA's political efforts influence the perception other have of the organization, and it this PERCEPTION among the parents of BSA membership that probably separated them from the BSA (did not actually know this was the case untill Phillip pointed it out, as it has been 20-plus years since I've been registered with the BSA).

Feel free to point out any errors, or was that remark just more of your customery flak.

[Phillip Allen]

another habit that should be mentioned:

when using a range with other people and time is called to hang targets or go down range for any reason... LAY IT DOWN AND DO NOT TOUCH IT WHILE PEOPLE ARE DOWN RANGE!!! Don't adjust sights or focus scopes or reload or work the action or touch the damn thing at all... a very important habit indeed

if you want to run a patch down the bore or handle it at all... leave the firing line and go to the car to do it

[BrianW]

Yes.

No touching the firearm, when people are down range.

[Donn]

Do tell, Donn. The NRA's political efforts influence the perception other have of the organization, and it this PERCEPTION among the parents of BSA membership that probably separated them from the BSA (did not actually know this was the case untill Phillip pointed it out, as it has been 20-plus years since I've been registered with the BSA).

Feel free to point out any errors, or was that remark just more of your customery flak.

I don't speak for Phillip, and have no idea what he means about the NRA being separated from the BSA, but they certainly are not, by any means, separated. The NRA is a primary partner with BSA, and has been for 100 years.



NRA-certified instructors are required participants in all BSA shooting events and training.

From the Guide to Safe Scouting:

Shooting Sports


The Boy Scouts of America adheres to its longstanding policy of teaching its youth and adult members the safe, responsible, intelligent handling, care, and use of firearms, air rifles, BB guns, and archery equipment in planned, carefully managed, and supervised programs.
Except for law enforcement officers required to carry firearms within their jurisdiction, firearms shall not be brought on camping, hiking, backpacking, or other Scouting activities except those specifically planned for target shooting under the supervision of a currently certified BSA national shooting sports director or National Rifle Association firearms instructor.

Cub Scouting Standards

Cub Scouts are permitted to participate only in the following shooting activities.
Archery and BB gun shooting are restricted to day camps, Cub Scout/Webelos Scout resident camps, council-managed family camping programs, or for council activities where there are properly trained supervisors and all standards for BSA shooting sports are enforced. Archery and BB gun shooting are not to be done at the pack level.
Tiger Cubs, Wolf Cub Scouts, and Bear Cub Scouts are not permitted to use any other type of pistol or firearm, including pellet guns.
Webelos Scouts are permitted to use air rifles at Webelos resident camp in accordance to BSA national standards for resident camp.
Boy Scouting Standards

Boy Scouts may participate in all activities previously listed for Cub Scouts and in the activities listed here.
Rifles

1. Boy Scouts may shoot single-shot, bolt-action, .22-caliber rifles with removable magazines only. Tubular magazines are not permitted.
2. All rifle-shooting activities must have a certified NRA Range Safety Officer directly supervising all live fire on the range. Additionally, the instruction offered must be done by a currently certified National Camping School shooting sports director certified as an NRA Rifle Instructor, or an NRA-certified Rifle Instructor or an NRA/USA Shooting/CMP-certified Rifle Coach. These must be two separate individuals.
3. Shooting safety glasses and ear protection must be worn on rifle ranges.
4. Care must be taken to comply with federal, state, and local laws.

A rifle safety briefing PowerPoint can be downloaded at this link .
Shotguns

1. For range shooting, shot size is determined by the range rules.
2. All shotgun shooting activities must have a certified NRA Range Safety Officer directly supervising all live fire on the range. Additionally, the instruction offered must be done by a currently certified National Camping School shooting sports director certified as an NRA Shotgun Instructor, or an NRA-certified Shotgun Instructor or an NRA/USA Shooting/CMP-certified Shotgun Coach. These must be two separate individuals.
3. Shooting safety glasses and ear protection must be worn on shotgun ranges.
4. Include semi-automatic, double-barrel, and pump shotguns for older Scouts. Multiple-round firing is limited to older Boy Scouts and Venturers.
5. Care must be taken to comply with federal, state, and local laws.

A shotgun safety briefing PowerPoint can be downloaded at this link .
Muzzleloaders

1. Muzzleloading firearms must be of modern manufacturing. Firearms made from kits must be certified safe by a licensed gunsmith.
2. All muzzleloader range shooting activities must have a certified NRA Range Safety Officer directly supervising all live fire on the range. Additionally, the instruction offered must be done by a currently certified National Camping School shooting sports director certified as an NRA Muzzleloading Instructor, or an NRA-certified Muzzleloading Instructor or an NRA/USA Shooting/CMP-certified Muzzleloading Coach. These must be two separate individuals.
3. For range firing, each participant must have one instructor or adult coach under the supervision of a currently trained NRA-certified Range Safety Officer.
4. Shooting safety glasses and ear protection must be worn on muzzleloader shooting ranges.
5. Care must be taken to comply with federal, state, and local laws.

Venturing Standards

Venturers may participate in all activities previously listed for Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts and may participate in the activities listed below:
Pistols

1. Pistol use is limited to the Venturing program.
2. All pistol-shooting activities must have a certified NRA Range Safety Officer directly supervising all live fire on the range. Additionally, the instruction offered must be done by a currently certified National Camping School shooting sports director certified as an NRA Pistol Instructor, or an NRA-certified Pistol Instructor or an NRA/USA Shooting/CMP-certified Pistol Coach. These must be two separate individuals.
3. When on the range, there must be a ratio of no more than two shooters per adult coach or instructor. The adult coaches or instructors must be near the shooters for close supervision. The adult coaches or instructors must be supervised by the Range Safety Officer.
4. Prior to pistol use, Venturers must complete one of the following:
5. Experiential shooting: BSA Pistol Briefing PowerPoint is required. Click here to download the briefing.
6. Instruction/training: NRA Pistol FIRST Steps program is required.
7. With the approval of the local council, pistol shooting may be conducted on BSA camp ranges, provided there is a certified NRA Range Safety Officer directly supervising all live fire on the range. Additionally, the instruction offered must be done by a currently certified National Camping School hooting Sports Director certified as an NRA Pistol Instructor, or an NRA-certified Pistol Instructor or an NRA/USA Shooting/CMP-certified Pistol Coach. These must be two separate individuals.
8. Shooting safety glasses and ear protection must be worn on pistol ranges.
9. Care must be taken to comply with federal, state, and local laws.

Rifles

1. Venturers may shoot all rifles, except fully automatic.
2. All rifle-shooting activities must have a certified NRA Range Safety Officer directly supervising all live fire on the range. Additionally, the instruction offered must be done by a currently certified National Camping School shooting sports director certified as an NRA Rifle Instructor, or an NRA-certified Rifle Instructor or an NRA/USA Shooting/CMP-certified Rifle Coach. These must be two separate individuals.
3. Shooting safety glasses and ear protection must be worn on rifle ranges.
4. Care must be taken to comply with federal, state, and local laws.

[Nicholas Scheuer]

Phillip brought it up.

[Donn]

Phillip brought it up.

And you took it as gospel, expanding it, bringing politics and perceptions into it.

[The Bigfella]

And you took it as gospel, expanding it, bringing politics and perceptions into it.

.... and that differs from you taking my earlier comment on this thread to another thread.... how?



Can anyone give me a national perspective on what gun safety is? Is it when accidents are minimised? To what level?

Is it when innocents don't die by bullet? What level of victimisation is acceptable?

What is gun safety?

[JimD]

I think I'm beginning to notice feint but nevertheless perceptible signs of rancor creeping in.

[The Bigfella]

Who's doing that?

[Nicholas Scheuer]

Well, Donn, Phillip has credibility here. And from the standpoint of safety, I'm glad to hear that the BSA and NRA haven't split. As I posted, it's been 20+ years since I've read any BSA literature. Also glad that 1914 Remington 22 with the bayonet wasn't on the scene (ABA instead of BSA noted) in the late 1960's and early 70's when I was persuading a few parents that letting their kids attend Summer Camp (worried about the rifles there) would be a good thing. They's have really dissaproved of bayonets on the rifles, though when I was a kid, a surplus WW2 bayonet was considered a great "sheath knife", untill our Scout Master taught us the error of our thinking.

As for what "gun safety" is, Bigfella, all of the educational programs the NRA ever dreamed of don't do anything to identify the nut jobs who kill students in schools.

I like the range safety tips posted above. When I was last on a BSA Range (about 1982) the "Range Officer" went a step further; he collected all of the live rounds and spent cassings (issued 5 or 10 at a time; easy to count) before anyone was permitted to go downrange. At our BSA Camps there were usually about 10 shooting lanes.

[The Bigfella]

Who said anything about nut jobs? I was asking what the definition of gun safety is?

Given that a million Americans have died with a bullet in them in the last 30 years, one's impression would be that guns aren't safe as they are currently handled. Perhaps a million dead in 30 years is considered a safe situation? What do you think? What is the definition of gun safety?

[skuthorp]

On the subject of gun safety, or not...............
The other day in Aus a father shot two sons, one seriously while they were hunting rabbitts. The wording was to the effect that that 'the boys had strayed into his field of fire and he hadn't seen them'. Course it was a shotgun so they can't have been too far away. What were they doing in font of him? Had he followed a running bunny with the barels?

[JimD]

Who's doing that?

Naming names would only add to the rancor. They know who they are.

[JimD]

On the subject of gun safety, or not...............
The other day in Aus a father shot two sons, one seriously while they were hunting rabbitts. The wording was to the effect that that 'the boys had strayed into his field of fire and he hadn't seen them'. Course it was a shotgun so they can't have been too far away. What were they doing in font of him? Had he followed a running bunny with the barels?

I hate it when that happens. At least he didn't try to claim he mistook them for rabbits.

[Phillip Allen]

And you took it as gospel, expanding it, bringing politics and perceptions into it.

don't get after him Donn. I did bring it up and I was apparently (and happily) wrong...thanks for correcting us (and I feel better)

[Phillip Allen]

Sometimes get a dud shotshell every now and then, I load them by the thousand (that's why I always use new in competition) Metalic on the otherhand, no, QC is everything, I load for quality not quantity.

Good man!

[Phillip Allen]

I think I'm beginning to notice feint but nevertheless perceptible signs of rancor creeping in.

Damn rancors... in the cabinets, in the sugar bowl and trash can... underfoot! Turn on the light and watch em scatter

[Phillip Allen]

On the subject of gun safety, or not...............
The other day in Aus a father shot two sons, one seriously while they were hunting rabbitts. The wording was to the effect that that 'the boys had strayed into his field of fire and he hadn't seen them'. Course it was a shotgun so they can't have been too far away. What were they doing in font of him? Had he followed a running bunny with the barels?

this is always discussed in hunting ed classes.
we require blaze orange hats and vest for that sort of hunting and stress awarness of where everybody is and also everyTHING like houses, cows and the car, AND THE DOG! The sort of accident you cite is usually the result of people not following that rule(s)

[S.V. Airlie]

The gun of the future,

[The Bigfella]

So.... the discussion continues, without definition. How strange.

[htom]

Gun safety consists of shooting and hitting only your intended target.

[The Bigfella]

OK, I'd call that a start.

I'd extend that a bit - add something to the effect that gun safety entails the safe storage and operation of guns so that human misery is minimised. A loaded gun sitting on a table, for example... doesn't fit into your definition htom, and there are many, many possible scenarios where it isn't safe.

[JimD]

Gun safety consists of shooting and hitting only your intended target.

I suppose. But this also means that some nutcase could open fire in the cafeteria, killing any number of innocent victims, and as long as he only murdered the students or staff he was aiming at we would have to conclude that he had used the firearm safely. So perhaps a definition of safety should include a legality component as well.

[JimD]

different topic

The topic isn't gun safety? Preventing a firearm from being used in the commission of a crime is not an aspect of gun safety?

[JimD]

no... it is not... think of it as safe handling not safe motivation

The thread title doesn't specifically mention safe handling. It refers to gun safety. Can safe storage be considered here?

[JimD]

okay, Jim... I went back and re read your post... it is much more reasonable than I thought at first... sorry

Thanks. And I agree to keep with the topic of safe handling in future if you like. Its a large part of firearm safety.

[htom]

OK, I'd call that a start.

I'd extend that a bit - add something to the effect that gun safety entails the safe storage and operation of guns so that human misery is minimised. A loaded gun sitting on a table, for example... doesn't fit into your definition htom, and there are many, many possible scenarios where it isn't safe.

As long as it's sitting there undisturbed by a human, it's exceedingly unlikely to shoot someone by itself. The primary other shooters seem to be larger birds, whose talons can pull the trigger. Guns are a lot like rocks, left alone, they just lay there.

[htom]

The nutcase who manages to safely shoot a number of innocents ... practiced gun safety. Really, he did. (Or she. Has there ever been such a female?) You're making the assumption that somehow people can be controlled like firearms.

[JimD]

The nutcase who manages to safely shoot a number of innocents ... practiced gun safety.

I find this definition a little narrow, but I get it. Of course he may still have not handled the gun safely and was just lucky not to have had an accident, but I understand what you're saying. I will continue to split hairs between gun safety in general and safe handling specifically, though. I will consider safe handling to be only one part of gun safety.

[JimD]

... You're making the assumption that somehow people can be controlled like firearms.

No, I'm not. More like the opposite. I make the assumption that people cannot be controlled. That is why I think leaving a gun where a three year old (or anyone unaware of the potential danger and untrained in safe weapons handling) can get it is not gun safety. Even though the owner of the gun may have handled it safely, he did not practice gun safety. (Just wanted to get that, Phillip. Back to safe handling...)

[fishrswim]

I never hunt with a round in the chamber.

Probably don't do too well on quail. 'Specially if you're using a double gun.

[The Bigfella]

As long as it's sitting there undisturbed by a human, it's exceedingly unlikely to shoot someone by itself. The primary other shooters seem to be larger birds, whose talons can pull the trigger. Guns are a lot like rocks, left alone, they just lay there.

Not in the least. A gun just laying there can be, and often is, picked up by a child.... and if that child shoots itself or another.... was the gun safe?

[Nicholas Scheuer]

I think gun storage is certainly part of "safety", though not as significant as shooting practices. We read in the newspapers all too many cases of young children playing with a gun their parents did not secure, and accidentally killing a sibling because it was loaded.

I started out locking my rifles with cables through the barrels, and keeping the ammunition is a small fire safe. However, in rethinking these practices, I decided that in the case of meeting an intruder, too much "unlocking" needed doing, so I changed to keeping everything in a steel gun cabinet. The gun cabinet is also more difficult for a burglar to carry out of the house (it's screwed to the wall) than is a zippered case with a cable-locked rifle.

Think of gun storage this way: safety when shooting and cleaning a gun need only be practiced while those activities are happening, which may be infrequently, but safe storage needs to happen 24/7.

[JimD]

there may sometime be a reason to, but generally, leaving a firearm which is loaded and ready to fire is not a good idea... still, safe practice of gun handling would see to it that the casual passer-by would assume it to be ready to fire and treat it accordingly...

Safer to acknowledge that the casual passer by could be a young child or an idiot.

[htom]

Not in the least. A gun just laying there can be, and often is, picked up by a child.... and if that child shoots itself or another.... was the gun safe?

Last I looked, children are humans. That's why it's so important that they learn how to safely handle firearms -- as well as a number of other things whose misuse can cause great problems. The problem is the child, not the gun. There is no world where children will never find guns. There can be a world where children you know will know how to safely handle those guns they find, saving both their lives and their playmates.

[htom]

I don't think that firearms can be made "safe". They are devices designed to throw bits of metal at high velocity when their trigger is activated. You can make firearms very complicated with "safeties"; those can and will fail, in both mode 1 and mode 2, and you're back at Cooper's Four Rules.

Yes, firearms should be locked up, etc. But these devices and schemes will also fail. Teach the children. Teach the grandchildren. Teach their playmates, and their playmates' parents. It's the stupidity that kills. "I didn't know it was loaded, I thought the safety was on, I didn't mean to shoot."

(Mode one failure -- firearm discharges when it shouldn't; mode two failure -- firearm does not discharge when it should.)

[Phillip Allen]

I don't think that firearms can be made "safe". They are devices designed to throw bits of metal at high velocity when their trigger is activated. You can make firearms very complicated with "safeties"; those can and will fail, in both mode 1 and mode 2, and you're back at Cooper's Four Rules.

Yes, firearms should be locked up, etc. But these devices and schemes will also fail. Teach the children. Teach the grandchildren. Teach their playmates, and their playmates' parents. It's the stupidity that kills. "I didn't know it was loaded, I thought the safety was on, I didn't mean to shoot."

(Mode one failure -- firearm discharges when it shouldn't; mode two failure -- firearm does not discharge when it should.)

in looking at this post I just remembered another habit of mine:
many times I have been asked "is it loaded" and my answer is always "I don't know, let me look". I do it to instill the idea of the habit of checking.

[Phillip Allen]

brought from the other thread... shoulda been posted here in the first place.

Here is an example of carelessness (assuming the guy is telling the truth).
He ‘forgot’ where the revolver was or that it was anywhere it looks like. One should ALWAYS be aware of it or put it away properly.

http://www.4029tv.com/news/30835549/detail.html

edited to add a bit about the content of the short article:

Police Seize Gun, Concealed Handgun License