I'll try another gun safety thread... without rancor

[Phillip Allen]

from the thread started by salty about a 3 yo who shot and killed himself:
I have tried to save the last part of that thread but may not have done a good job... we'll see

try and have a gun safety discussion on THIS forum!

We could try Phillip. I own long guns, and would own a handgun if it wasn't such a hassle.

Rule 1 - Do not leave a gun, especially a loaded gun within reach of a child.

there's a lot more than that...

I agree Phillip !
That's just a start and related to this thread.
I don't carry a loaded gun. I hunt with a single shot 16 guage break action. Gun open and unloaded, shells in my pocket. Very low risk. I discovered the danger of walking with a loaded (not cocked) .22 when I was a kid, climbing over a fence. I still have the scar on my right thumb.

Where i grew up (Ohio) there were (are?) laws regarding transporting firearms in motor vehicles. IIRC:

1. The weapon must unloaded.

2. The weapon must be cased.

3. The weapon must be broken down insofar is practical. For instance, bolt-action rifles or shotguns must have the bolt removed (and stowed separately, if possible).

That would be a good start.

Fireams Safety Rules as were beat into my thick noggin when I were a wee lad:

0. Never load a weapon unless you intend to use it in the very near future. The weapon must be unloaded, cleared and decocked before putting it away. Ammunition to be stored separately from the weapon.

1. All weapons are to be treated at all times as if they are hot: loaded, cocked and safety off.

2. Never point a weapon at anything into which you are unwilling to fire a bullet. Never, ever, fire a round at anything unless you know absolutely the ultimate disposition of the bullet (e.g., never, for instnace, fire at something on a ridge or otherwise silhoutted against the sky: if you miss, you may inadvertantly kill Great-Aunt Agatha a mile away.)

3. The very first thing one must do on picking up or being handed a weapon is to clear it and lock open the action. Even if the person handing it to you just did that. If you don't know how to do so safely or are otherwise unwilling/unable to do so, don't pick up or accept the weapon.

4. See Rule #0, above.

Maybe me da were a harda$$...but I don't think so.

This is really sad.
I hope your courts will temper justice with mercy and suspend any jail sentence.

The parents HAVE to go to trial as a community deterrent re irresponsibility. and be sentenced.
The sentence should be suspended and the pair be banned for life from carrying or owning a gun. (IMHO)

[Phillip Allen]

It's not the ideas that are in conflict but defining the terms are very problematic.

What exactly is "unqualified" and who gets to determine that?

What exactly is "responsible law abiding" and who gets to determine that?

Would your definitions of these two terms be any different than common definitions already in use, and how would your definitions specifically reduce accidental gun deaths?

regards,
Waddie

I think the term "unqualified" is misleading.
If you must have such open admission to the gun owner club, one strike and your out.

I think a jail sentence is appropriate.

I think this is a good place to begin... I have problems with some of your numbered rules but not big problems.

In thinking about what to write I keep going 'random' with my answer and don't have a clear idea of who to write for simplicity... perhaps because it is not simple.

I am not in the right frame of mind to do it but I think in, a bit, I will start my contribution by simply listing my personal habits which I have developed. I will also include circumstance as it applies...

a good place to start is to point out that I live alone and have a granddaughter, now 13, who often stays weekends with me. Others come and go on occasion, but she is a regular.
That circumstance must lead my habits a bit.

when considering your jail sentence I wonder:

are there other children envolved?
are you aware that ALL felony convictions in the US carry life sentences?

the quotes don't connect with the respondees but let's run with it

[David W Pratt]

Drivers' Ed is a program to make young drivers safer, I don't understand why we don't have more Shooters' Ed.
Although I admit, the 3yo probably wouldn't have been affected, but maybe his father would have.

[Paul Pless]

I like 'high ride' and sculpted grip safeties on 1911's. . .

[Phillip Allen]

Drivers' Ed is a program to make young drivers safer, I don't understand why we don't have more Shooters' Ed.
Although I admit, the 3yo probably wouldn't have been affected, but maybe his father would have.

very reasonable...however schools are currently suspending students for even saying the word 'gun', I understand

[Phillip Allen]

I like 'high ride' and sculpted grip safeties on 1911's. . .

many, many years ago I was told there were seven safety features on the old 1911... don't know if I can name them though

[Ian McColgin]

One of the reasons I support operator licensing and firearms registration is the simplified enforcement of safety standards along with consequences for various violations.

Motor vehicles used on the highways are subject to certain mostly safety criteria like lighting, allignment, bumper height etc. Similarly with firearms. The rational safety standards for storage and transport that the NRA teaches are readily codified and there can be consequences. For example, whatever the standard for transport of a shotgun in a vehicle, it's not going to be loose and loaded on the seat next to you. Get stopped with an improperly stored firearm and, depending on the degree of impropriety it could be a "fix-it-ticket" like you'd get for a headlight out to having the firearm impounded until proper storage is installed in the vehicle.

Obviously a different level of operator license is required for concealed carry and the safety standards for vehicle operation with a concealed carry firearm properly on one's person would be quite different from how the firearms operator licensed to use a handgun only on a fireing range would carry the weapon in a car. Firearms safety is not one size fits all.

My point is, there's abundant preaching about safety. Safe handling of firearms is very well understood. But without a clear regulatory environment and enforcement mechanism, the only enforcement will be after the fact homocide or endangerment charges.

[Paul Pless]

many, many years ago I was told there were seven safety features on the old 1911... don't know if I can name them though

Two on the original 1911 (grip and thumb)

Five on the 1911A1: grip, slide lock, half cock, manual hammer/trigger lock (thumb safety), sear disconnect.

Add a firing pin safety to modern 1911's. . .

[Paul Pless]

Firearms safety is not one size fits all.

Hearing protection is important for all shooters. . .

[Ian McColgin]

"Drivers' Ed is a program to make young drivers safer" [#3] This is true regarding intent. Exactly how true it is regarding outcome is harder to tell. I'm old enough that driver's ed was wholly voluntary for kids - no difference in age for learner's permit, daylight only, or adult license. But there was a very large break in the insurance rate. Good so far. Statistical corrolation between the safer teen drivers and those who passed driver's ed. So then as we got to the mid and later '60s there was more pressure to mandate driver's ed and the corrolation promptly fell apart. What the insurance companies had been reacting to was a sort of self-selection by which the young drivers more likely to drive safely were those more likely to chose to learn more about driving.

I am not saying that driver's ed or shooter's ed should be only voluntary. I am just noting that if we had driver's ed but had no traffic law enforcement, we'd be fools to expect the streets to be at their current level of risk.

[Paul Pless]

"Drivers' Ed is a program to make young drivers safer" [#3] This is true regarding intent. Exactly how true it is regarding outcome is harder to tell. I'm old enough that driver's ed was wholly voluntary for kids

Me too, damn Ian you make me feel old by comparison.

[Phillip Allen]

I am hoping to keep politics out of it...just hoping
I think politics will muddy the water and cause people to 'take sides' and ground will be lost to partisanship

[seanz]

many, many years ago I was told there were seven safety features on the old 1911... don't know if I can name them though

Original Colt 1911 Safety Features.

1. Too heavy for a small child to lift.

2. Steel construction, will rapidly rust to inoperability if left unattended.

3. Limited capacity magazine. See, Browning thought it was a good idea.

4. So ugly that if a child finds a 1911, instead of picking it up, they will scream and run away.

5. Has no sharp edges

6. Would've been a lot more dangerous if it had've been more accurate.

7. So complicated that people fall asleep while having the various "conditions" explained to them. And you can't shoot anybody when you're asleep.

[Paul Pless]

and ground will be lost to partisanship

What good would a partisan be without his rifle???

[Paul Pless]

Original Colt 1911 Safety Features.

1. Too heavy for a small child to lift.

2. Steel construction, will rapidly rust to inoperability if left unattended.

3. Limited capacity magazine. See, Browning thought it was a good idea.

4. So ugly that if a child finds a 1911, instead of picking it up, they will scream and run away.

5. Has no sharp edges

6. Would've been a lot more dangerous if it had've been more accurate.

7. So complicated that people fall asleep while having the various "conditions" explained to them. And you can't shoot anybody when you're asleep.

You are just trying to flame me! I'm telling Phillip, maybe he can get this thread back on track. . .

[Phillip Allen]

You are just trying to flame me! I'm telling Phillip, maybe he can get this thread back on track. . .

Phillip already knows...

[seanz]

You are just trying to flame me! I'm telling Phillip, maybe he can get this thread back on track. . .

Not at all. I'm simply joining in a discussion. If you'd like to correct any of those points, feel free.

[Paul Pless]

Loading large rifle cartridges with fast burning 'pistol' powders should be frowned upon.

[Phillip Allen]

Some of my personal habits concerning firearms:

I always check to see if it is loaded… even when I’m the one who put it away and retrieved it… it worries me not to… just like using turn signals when no one else is around… I nurture the habit.

Even when cleaning a disassembled rifle or revolver, I am careful never to point it at anyone… it makes me uncomfortable… I nurture the habit.

When I am with an inexperienced shooter, I stay within ‘grabbing’ distance. I owe it to any others standing around at the range and to the young person as well.

I generally shoot only factory loads or my own reloads… no offence guys but I wasn’t there and don’t know your laboratory practices.

The foregoing are the first few habits I thought of but certainly not all of them.

[SaltyBoatr]

I am hoping to keep politics out of it...just hoping
I think politics will muddy the water and cause people to 'take sides' and ground will be lost to partisanship

Is it partisan to ask:

Can parents of small children opt out of gun safety training?

[Paul Pless]

I avoid sticking my muzzle in the ground.

[Phillip Allen]

I avoid sticking my muzzle in the ground.

don't trip

[Paul Pless]

proper eye relief is important, unless you're a neanderthal and don't use scopes

[seanz]

proper eye relief is important, unless your a neanderthal and don't use scopes

If you are a neanderthal, but you do use scopes.......should you be extra careful because of your low forehead and bushy eyebrows?

[Phillip Allen]

If you are a neanderthal, but you do use scopes.......should you be extra careful because of your low forehead and bushy eyebrows?

especially with auto-loaders (don't want to get your eyebrows tangled in the mechanism)

[David W Pratt]

You're right, Phillip, all in the magazine.

[S.V. Airlie]

Me too, damn Ian you make me feel old by comparison.

Look at our avatars Paul. I don't dye mine gray. Ian's comment about the sunset rule for driving is true for many of us.I don't recall drivers' ed being manditory. I took it because of he insurance issue.Did I drive at night, well ummmmm, I took the jeep to an area (spot) out of town regularly to go to the movies..Talking two tracks here through the woods, across a few streams etc. never on a road..I know, me bad, but I had been driving since I was about six.

[Phillip Allen]

You're right, Phillip, all in the magazine.

what am I right about?

[SaltyBoatr]

Hmm, come into a gun safety thread and post about opting out of gun safety? Dude, you gotz a really bad wireing problem in your head. You need to eat more sugar.

I ask a simple question, and instead of answering it you smear me.

Who has the wiring problem?

[SaltyBoatr]

Simple question? Oh sure, like walking into an air conditioning shop and asking if the propeller on your beanie is turning the right way.

Propeller on my beanie?

So much for Phillip's request for a thread without rancor.

[htom]

Salty -- if they agree to accept both civil and criminal liability for each and every firearms incident (of any sort) in which either of them, or any of their children, or any of their descendents, are ever involved.

[htom]

I think Col. Cooper's Four Rule of Firearms Safety pretty much covers the spectrum of firearms and unintentional firings.

1. All firearms are always loaded.

2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you don't want destroyed.

3. Keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to fire.

4. Always be sure of your target, and what is above, below, beside, beyond, and through that target.

[Paul Pless]

+1

keep it simple stupid

[The Bigfella]

I am hoping to keep politics out of it...just hoping
I think politics will muddy the water and cause people to 'take sides' and ground will be lost to partisanship

I seem to recall that the last time we had a decent discussion on this... with a lot of CDC and other facts... you deleted the thread. Why do you think you deserve to be taken seriously?

[Ian McColgin]

htom, given that in the state of Maine a hunter who shot illegally close to a house, killing a housewife hanging her laundry from a line attached to the house, did not even get manslaughter for claiming she looked like a white tail deer, the chances of strict gun liability seem low. In my own fair commonwealth, an off-duty cop about a half hour after the afternoon close of the season fired at what he thought was a deer. Turned out to be a person on a porch. To date he's not been charged so again, strict gun liability seems elusive at best. There must be a system of license and registration that makes regulation prior to a homocide case possible.

[JimD]

Two things I would want to see, especially if I lived in the USA. First, promote a weapons safety culture through advertising. It wouldn't be too expensive to have small ads on busses, subways, billboards, print media, possibly tv, encouraging people to learn more about weapon safety, through practical courses, on line, ie: Think you know how to use your gun safely? Take this on line quiz! etc. Second, something that would be more contentious in the US, a mandatory written test that could be studied for from booklets available at any gun shop, much the way in Canada to operate a boat you need to have a wallet card showing you've passed a simple written test on safe boat handling, navigation, and so on. If you're caught operating a boat without the card you have some explaining to do to the coast guard or police boat. None of this need infringe on anyone's right to own weapons except in the very limited sense that if you're too stupid and reckless to pass a simple written safety test then you're too stupid and reckless to own a weapon. In most areas of life, rights come with obligations.

[Phillip Allen]

htom, given that in the state of Maine a hunter who shot illegally close to a house, killing a housewife hanging her laundry from a line attached to the house, did not even get manslaughter for claiming she looked like a white tail deer, the chances of strict gun liability seem low. In my own fair commonwealth, an off-duty cop about a half hour after the afternoon close of the season fired at what he thought was a deer. Turned out to be a person on a porch. To date he's not been charged so again, strict gun liability seems elusive at best. There must be a system of license and registration that makes regulation prior to a homocide case possible.

this has been discussed around me all my life... it is generally accepted that the 'authorities' (whomever they be) do not pursue hunting accidents because of the fear that accidents which may be mitigated by calling for help (by the shooter) will not be called in for fear of follow-up hounding of the shooter. the shooter may be the only chance for life for someone injured in an accidental shooting.

[S.V. Airlie]

Yup I took the boater safety course....Useless. Totally. Boaters especially on rivers on jet boats pay little attention to the regs. Turned into quite a market actually. get help in passing the test $100.00. Test $25.00 or more, certificate another $25.00. I laughed. To be a safety course one should spend x hours on a boat as a requirement to take a written test and that should be graded too.

[SaltyBoatr]

Salty -- if they agree to accept both civil and criminal liability for each and every firearms incident (of any sort) in which either of them, or any of their children, or any of their descendents, are ever involved.

Personal agreement has nothing to do with criminal or civil liability. The courts decide that, not the person.
Hence, you are saying that people have a right to opt-out of gun safety training. It follows then that:

With a few exceptions in the USA, there is no requirement for firearm safety training prior to using a gun.

Reasonable people can disagree whether this is wise public policy.

To me, considering that unsafe gun use threatens the public at large and especially children, I think it is bad public policy to not require effective gun training as a condition of the right to use a gun.

[Phillip Allen]

another 'habit' I remembered...
when carring hunting rifles in a pick up cab, I always place the muzzle down into the floor... should it go off when pointed down, there is less danger to others.
as to carrying it loaded while hunting, I slip the bolt out if it's a bolt action or open the action in some way or remove ammo... which ever is safest without gitting silly about it. in any event, the rifle cannot 'go off' without deliberately loading or making ready to fire.

[S.V. Airlie]

ummm hunters have to take a course in most states if they ever plan to hunt. I think it's a requirement.

[Phillip Allen]

in the last 30 or so years the course has taken off

I taught it here for a few years

I take hunter safety and gun safety very seriously

[Paul Pless]

I take hunter safety and gun safety very seriously

why? you're not a hunter. . .

[SaltyD from BC]

When hunting in the brush cover your muzzle with tape or a finger cot so that sticks and debris and rain can't end up the barrel; particularly if you carry your rifle with a sling barrel pointing up. I use electrical tape, a couple wraps around the end of the barrel leaving 3/4" of tape or so beyond the muzzle. Then just pinch the end bit shut. Debris in a barrel can cause barrels to about explode when fired; very dangerous to the shooter or those near by. I have tested and shooting through the tape does not effect accuracy more than a 1/2" or so at a hundred yards.

[BrianW]

I tape my muzzle too, plus some extra around the barrel for when I shoot through the first bit.

I'm still not sure from the title, what gun safety has to do with fuel filters?

[Donn]

why? you're not a hunter. . .

That's the silliest question you've ever asked here.

[Phillip Allen]

I tape my muzzle too, plus some extra around the barrel for when I shoot through the first bit.

I'm still not sure from the title, what gun safety has to do with fuel filters?

I have never used anything to protect the barrel from snow or mud or sticks... the few times I thought I might have had the muzzle where it shouldn't have been, I checked the bore by clearing and looking through it

[BrianW]

I never hunt with a round in the chamber.

[Phillip Allen]

as a white tail hunter, silence is very important... shots are generally from 25 to 50 yards

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Aww shucks do you have a lockable gun safe ?