Help/Suggestion - Looking for a New Design to Love

[kfranklin]

I just finished my Nutshell Pram and I am already feeling the itch to build something bigger. I've already drafter a set of requirements that I hope are realistic (nothing like 6' 3 mast schooner that sleeps 50). They are as follows in no particular order.

Must be able to store on the hard. (Carvel straight out)
Must be trailerable
-Ease of trailerbility strongly preferred
Must weigh less that 3500 lb trailered (Class II hitch)
Must have accommodations for 2 (I am 6' tall)
-It is preferred this is inside a cabin (but this is not a requirement)
-Sleeping comfort is of no concern as I am used to backpacking
-It is preferred but not required that the accommodations for two allow them to sleep together rather than separate, but not required
Rig
-Can be single handed
-CAN NOT BE BERMUDA
-Otherwise Open to pretty much anything but gaff or lug would be nice
Comfort
-This is a minimum for me since I backpack a lot.
-Keeping me alive is way more important
Sailing
-Shallower the draft the better
-Plan to sail the Potomac and Chesapeake and occasionally short stints to the coast
Looks
-The "saltier" the better
-I plan to make all the blocks from scratch as rope stropped.
Must also be able to tow a Nutshell Pram (9'6") comfortably
*New Req*Spars and mast should be wooden (I just like the looks)

If these requirements aren't realistic please say so, but appreciate the help!

[David G]

Here's one thought for you. John Welsford's 'Penguin' --

http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/penguin/index.htm


I'd lean toward the yawl version, but I've sailed a tiny bit aboard the gaffer, and didn't see any issues. They both fit the hull quite nicely, I think. And it's definitely a salty looking boat. There are a couple fotos of Peters at Pt. Townsend in the WB Welsford article in the recent issue.

[kfranklin]

She is very very nice, and I do love his designs. It's my current go to, except it's larger than my needs at this time.

[sailboy3]

Cape Cutter 19 by Dudley Dix (there's also a 21)

http://www.dixdesign.com/inspir19.htm

[Sayla]

I just finished my Nutshell Pram and I am already feeling the itch to build something bigger. I've already drafter a set of requirements that I hope are realistic (nothing like 6' 3 mast schooner that sleeps 50). They are as follows in no particular order.

Must be able to store on the hard. (Carvel straight out)
Must be trailerable
-Ease of trailerbility strongly preferred
Must weigh less that 3500 lb trailered (Class II hitch)
Must have accommodations for 2 (I am 6' tall)
-It is preferred this is inside a cabin (but this is not a requirement)
-Sleeping comfort is of no concern as I am used to backpacking
-It is preferred but not required that the accommodations for two allow them to sleep together rather than separate, but not required
Rig
-Can be single handed
-CAN NOT BE BERMUDA
-Otherwise Open to pretty much anything but gaff or lug would be nice
Comfort
-This is a minimum for me since I backpack a lot.
-Keeping me alive is way more important
Sailing
-Shallower the draft the better
-Plan to sail the Potomac and Chesapeake and occasionally short stints to the coast
Looks
-The "saltier" the better
-I plan to make all the blocks from scratch as rope stropped.
Must also be able to two a Nutshell Pram (9'6") comfortably

If these requirements aren't realistic please say so, but appreciate the help!

Are you partial to transoms, or double enders? I came down to two in my similar lookabout - Farne Islander and a particular Cape Henry - both trailerable salty gaffers under 3500lbs (plus trailer) with 1'7" draft, but sufficient draft and enough ballast to keep alive, both sleep more than two - the Cape Henry has >120deg stability data and can have expanda-foam in any unused nooks and crannies for positive bouyancy - the Farne Islander doesn't have the same published data, but calculations on specifications turn out very similar. I love 'em both, but am going C.H. The F.I. is awesome, but the C.H. is over the top.






sayla

[David G]

Penguin is too big... how? She's well withing your trailering limit. One of the simplest builds for your design brief as well... though she is far less spartan below than you're willing to put up with.

OK... how about a NIS18?

http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/m...gallery?KID=42

[Trevor S.]

Build a "Pathfinder", and put a little Cuddy on her, like this chap.

http://buildingpathfinder.blogspot.c...&max-results=7

[kfranklin]

Penguin is too big... how? She's well withing your trailering limit. One of the simplest builds for your design brief as well... though she is far less spartan below than you're willing to put up with.

OK... how about a NIS18?

http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/m...gallery?KID=42

Woah! I apologize! I saw the interior shots and diagrams and thought she was much larger than she is. Guess I should read more carefully.

[darroch]

Have you considered any of the open boat designs?

[Andy Mcconkey]

How about something from Gartside? He's got some beautiful designs in that range, both open and with cabins.
http://www.gartsideboats.com/

[kfranklin]

Have you considered any of the open boat designs?

I have, but I have yet to find one that suits my fancy. I kind of want a boat that "looks" big if that makes sense. I am open to the idea.

[kfranklin]

Penguin is too big... how? She's well withing your trailering limit. One of the simplest builds for your design brief as well... though she is far less spartan below than you're willing to put up with.

OK... how about a NIS18?

http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/m...gallery?KID=42

To be truthful I was trying to open myself up to other designs. I just kind of feel in love with the penguin. Approximately How much do you think I could expect to have to invest in making such a boat myself?

[Woxbox]

The Chebacco might suit you, too. Optional lapstrake or hard-chine versions.

[darroch]

I have, but I have yet to find one that suits my fancy. I kind of want a boat that "looks" big if that makes sense. I am open to the idea.

I should have specified 'open rowing boat'. If rowing is unimportant it's a different ballgame. That Chebacco is nice.

[David G]

To be truthful I was trying to open myself up to other designs. I just kind of feel in love with the penguin. Approximately How much do you think I could expect to have to invest in making such a boat myself?

I think I have the quote I did for a fellow a year or so ago... but it's down at the shop. You might get a faster answer with an email to John that waiting for me to remember to bring the file home.

The Chebacco is another good choice. I have two friends that own them, and they've been quite happy with them. Smaller, and lighter than the Penguin, so easier to launch & retrieve solo (if that's an issue... you hadn't said). Much more spartan and tight interior. Much!

[Clinton B Chase]

Be sure to check out Vivier Boats.com

[kfranklin]

I think I have the quote I did for a fellow a year or so ago... but it's down at the shop. You might get a faster answer with an email to John that waiting for me to remember to bring the file home.

The Chebacco is another good choice. I have two friends that own them, and they've been quite happy with them. Smaller, and lighter than the Penguin, so easier to launch & retrieve solo (if that's an issue... you hadn't said). Much more spartan and tight interior. Much!

I love the chewbacco, but from the study plans looks like sleeping in the cabin would be quite tight for somebody 6'. Although she does had a great look and would be much easier to singlehand.

[David G]

I love the chewbacco, but from the study plans looks like sleeping in the cabin would be quite tight for somebody 6'. Although she does had a great look and would be much easier to singlehand.

The length is there. One friend is over 6', and his dad is tall also. They've slept aboard more than once. But it's tight, for sure.

[Chip-skiff]

Welsford's Penguin and Bolger Chebacco are both excellent designs, but given your list, I second the notion of the Norwalk Islands Sharpie 18. This is the best website to consult:

http://www.nisboats.com/mainpages/18plans.html

Here are the accommodations:



Spacious for an 18 foot hull, with a large fore berth. Other points: shallow-draft, easily driven (i.e. fast sailer), easier build than a planked boat, can be rigged as a gaff cat or cat yawl, mast tabernacle allows quick lowering for passage under bridges.

[Paul Pless]

Michael Storer's strip planked version of Fenwick Williams' Catboat.

[TerryLL]

Another catboat recommendation, the Wittholz 17' in plywood.






LOA - 17' 1"
LWL - 16' 7"
Beam - 7' 10"
Draft (cb up) - 1' 9"
(cb down) - 4' 3"
Weight - 2,400 lbs.
Sail Area: Gaff - 220 sq. ft. Marconi - 210 sq. ft.
Construction: Plywood planking over sawn frames
Lofting is required
Skill level: Intermediate
Plans include 11 sheets.

[kfranklin]

Welsford's Penguin and Bolger Chebacco are both excellent designs, but given your list, I second the notion of the Norwalk Islands Sharpie 18. This is the best website to consult:

http://www.nisboats.com/mainpages/18plans.html

Here are the accommodations:



Spacious for an 18 foot hull, with a large fore berth. Other points: shallow-draft, easily driven (i.e. fast sailer), easier build than a planked boat, can be rigged as a gaff cat or cat yawl, mast tabernacle allows quick lowering for passage under bridges.

That looks quite nice, but I didn't find a clear indication if it can be built with a wooden mast/spars?

[David G]

That looks quite nice, but I didn't find a clear indication if it can be built with a wooden mast/spars?

Of course it can.

[TerryLL]

If you're considering the NIS-18, take a close look at the NIS-23. About the same amount of work, but a big step up in interior volume.

[Chip-skiff]

If you're considering the NIS-18, take a close look at the NIS-23. About the same amount of work, but a big step up in interior volume.

True. I've dreamed of both and would be happy with either, but I live so bloody far from the sea that a light daysailer suits me best. And that's what I've got.

I think the designer is keen on carbon fiber masts for these boats, for performance. But for a gaff rig you could laminate a shorter mast of Douglas fir, with spars of fir or spruce. There's lots of info on this forum about building hollow masts, to reduce the weight up top. The important aspect is that an unstayed mast needs to be strong enough to handle the shock load of an occasional hard gust without snapping and the rig should be able to spill wind to relieve the stress.

The real boatbuilders on the Forum could no doubt advise you.

[TerryLL]

True. I've dreamed of both and would be happy with either, but I live so bloody far from the sea that a light daysailer suits me best. And that's what I've got.

I've spent a lot of time looking at the NIS boats. If I were in the market for a comfortable shallow water cruiser for two, either the Nis-23 or the NIS-26 would be the boat. One person cruising alone can put up with an amazing degree of crowding and discomfort, but once you add a second person, especially a significant other, then you'd better plan on decent accommodations.

But I'm in the light and easily trailerable day-sailer mode these days.

[kfranklin]

Hey thanks again all. I think I will have to look in to the NIS boats. The do look quite nice, although I think the 18 or 23 are probably sufficient for my needs. I don't plan to start until I have a design I am a 100 in to, right now it's the penguin and the NIS-18. Also why don't schooners scale down? (Dumb question but couldn't find a answer)

[Paul Pless]

Also why don't schooners scale down?

pity . . .

[kfranklin]

pity . . .

I mean is it simply because there are too many lines to handle or is there a specific aerodynamic reason of scale. I.e. you can't linearly scale down the mast in wood such to allow the two mainsails and the foresail enough wind flow to form a proper NACA airfoil?

[Paul Pless]

or is there a specific aerodynamic reason of scale

With a few exceptions, its not an efficient rig for boats under forty feet or so, very generally speaking. . .

[David G]

A smaller schoner is POSSIBLE. Here are some fotos of the Bolger Light Schooner. Not the most practical boat out there, and tiddly as heck... but possible. You'd get far more use out of a Penguin or NIS18:

http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/photos.htm#start

[kfranklin]

With a few exceptions, its not an efficient rig for boats under forty feet or so, very generally speaking. . .

Thanks, I was simply curious. I don't plan to go with a schooner because I figure if every boat guys says I shouldn't there must be a reason!

[kfranklin]

A smaller schoner is POSSIBLE. Here are some fotos of the Bolger Light Schooner. Not the most practical boat out there, and tiddly as heck... but possible. You'd get far more use out of a Penguin or NIS18:

http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/photos.htm#start

I'd heard so much about the Bolger, but also heard if you like fiddling it's great. Personally I want this to be a fiddly boat, but also one I can still sail.

[Michael Wick]

If you want light, hollow wood masts, it is possible to build bird's mouth spars and put threads of carbon fible in each mouth. I've also built light, hollow spars as a mandrel and added layers of carbon fiber sock set in epoxy. SOLLER COMPOSITS is a good source: carbon, carbon/kevlar, carbon/glass.

[Chip-skiff]

Quick note: I took a measurement on the foreberth in the NIS 18 drawing and make it to be about 6-1/2 feet long. You'd need some sort of fiddle to keep the pillows on, but that does seem plenty long.

My skiff is a Bolger Gypsy and I love it. Very refined look for a hull that's so simple to build.

[darroch]

How could a backpacker not love this?

[coucal]

Also why don't schooners scale down? (Dumb question but couldn't find a answer)

Just for fun (not a suggestion...), here's the link to Atkin's Florence Oakland - a 22'5" V-bottom schooner.



Isn't she lovely?

I built my canoe next door to a bloke who was making a NIS-18 (Philippe Patacca's Didi), and I've had a stickybeak through Robert Ayliffe's NIS-23 Charlie Fisher. I was seriously impressed with both - big small boats with a good reputation for speed and good behaviour. Apparently a big part of the seaworthiness of sharpies depends on keeping weight down low, so the lower the mast weight the better - I'd be lairy of going over the designed weights.

[Brian W.]

Slightly different suggestion: Jim Michalak's Caprice. Ply-epoxy, 25x6+, lug yawl rig, water ballast. Weighs about 1000 lbs on the road (+trailer, etc), rigs very quickly (and drops rig fast too). Chuck Leinweber (owner of Duckworks), has had his for several years and it is the usual flagship for the Texas 200, so there are a lot of pics and videos on the internet, plus a lot of comments. Sleeps two in the cabin in what could easily be made into a queen-sized bed, with separate galley and "utility" room. Two more can sleep in cockpit under a tent. The multichine hull doesn't look quite like any trad boat I know of, but the rig does! I have the plans for this, and I think it would be one of the quickest 25 footers to build. I'm a self-admitted "plans junkie" and I really like Michalak's drawings (they're cheap and very clear). http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/caprice/index.htm

[kfranklin]

How could a backpacker not love this?

She is mighty fine, but I would like something with a small cabin to stay dry and retreat to. I am not sure how she would handle the Chesapeake though. I also plan to have the g/f along as well.

[kfranklin]

Just for fun (not a suggestion...), here's the link to Atkin's Florence Oakland - a 22'5" V-bottom schooner.



Isn't she lovely?

I built my canoe next door to a bloke who was making a NIS-18 (Philippe Patacca's Didi), and I've had a stickybeak through Robert Ayliffe's NIS-23 Charlie Fisher. I was seriously impressed with both - big small boats with a good reputation for speed and good behaviour. Apparently a big part of the seaworthiness of sharpies depends on keeping weight down low, so the lower the mast weight the better - I'd be lairy of going over the designed weights.

I came across the Atkin schooners, but from what I could find, the don't sound too friendly to sail, although for looks it is by far my favorite I have found thus far.
I am really considering the NIS boats, but I feel that putting an aluminum mast on a wooden boat is a sin, and I might as well be on a fiberglass boat. (This is stickly based on looks, but then again I want belaying pins and wooden blocks too!)

[kfranklin]

Slightly different suggestion: Jim Michalak's Caprice. Ply-epoxy, 25x6+, lug yawl rig, water ballast. Weighs about 1000 lbs on the road (+trailer, etc), rigs very quickly (and drops rig fast too). Chuck Leinweber (owner of Duckworks), has had his for several years and it is the usual flagship for the Texas 200, so there are a lot of pics and videos on the internet, plus a lot of comments. Sleeps two in the cabin in what could easily be made into a queen-sized bed, with separate galley and "utility" room. Two more can sleep in cockpit under a tent. The multichine hull doesn't look quite like any trad boat I know of, but the rig does! I have the plans for this, and I think it would be one of the quickest 25 footers to build. I'm a self-admitted "plans junkie" and I really like Michalak's drawings (they're cheap and very clear). http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/caprice/index.htm

She certainly fits my needs almost to the letter, but unfortunately the looks don't quite do it for me. I am hoping to find a design I fall in love with at first sight like I did with the Nutshell Pram.

[timo4352]

Another thread going here if you haven't seen it:
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...aid-of-Moreton

[kfranklin]

Another thread going here if you haven't seen it:
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...aid-of-Moreton

Did some research looks like the plans for the NIS 18 are no longer being sold, only the kit + plans.

And I think I may have found it. The penguin is nice, but it's a little large for my needs. This fits it exactly!

[MoMan]

I just finished my Nutshell Pram and I am already feeling the itch to build something bigger.

I'm in a very similar situation and am now shopping around designs. In fact, my requirements are pretty similar to yours. Please start a build thread as soon as you pick your design.

[Jamie Orr]

+1 for Chebacco - I think David is referring to me and yes, two six footers are no problem. We used to do week long cruises. It's a great boat, even allowing for the bias which I hide so well.

The length is there. One friend is over 6', and his dad is tall also. They've slept aboard more than once. But it's tight, for sure.

[cprinos]

gartside 18' lug yawl. strip, cold-mold, or glued lap. http://store.gartsideboats.com/colle...ard-lugger-145




Vivier's Jewell (vivierboats.com)



Always thought this one from Laurie McGowan was interesting:

[David G]

+1 for Chebacco - I think David is referring to me and yes, two six footers are no problem. We used to do week long cruises. It's a great boat, even allowing for the bias which I hide so well.

Yes, Jamie... I was talking about you. I'd never mention you by name unless you already had. Despite your RockStar status in your industry, your hometown, and in the small boating community (or perhaps because of it) - I know you value your privacy. Thanks for confirming my impressions.

If the Sharpie 600 is tickling the right heartstrings - you might want to consider some of the offerings from Devlin. I'm rather partial to Lil' Coot... but you might like Winter Wren II or Song Wren.

http://store.devlinboat.com/saildays...sailplans.aspx



LIL' COOT --