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Thread: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

  1. #1
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    Default A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    Seemed like I was taking up too much space on the SCAMP thread with a boat that is extremely modified and a bit of distraction from the "as designed" SCAMP so I'm posting here.

    A little history first. Some folks don't like me messing with a Welsford design that is already so perfect for its intended purpose. I blame all my changes to the SCAMP design on my fishing buddy who long ago complained about the old straight mast being in his way when we were fishing so I glued up a laminated mast that curved around him. That shut him up and was 100% successful but it opened up a whole brand new can of worms. I got to thinking how much better I could make it. My mom passed away and left me with money to play with and Xena, my CY with its birdwing mast was the result. Since then I've built another smaller birdwing mast that was intended to be Xena's mizzen but I was too ambitious with the scale of it and it just ended up being too big for that. Now I'm building a SCAMP on which to use the smaller birdwing mast and its sail which are already in existence. Using Adobe Illustrator on my computer, its pretty easy to compare the "as draw" lug rig with my existing birdwing rig. Because of its unusual shape, the birdwing mast wanted to be stepped at bulkhead 4 rather than bulkhead 3 where the lug mast is stepped. With the mast step no longer at bulkhead three, there was no reason not to extend the cabin space forward all the way to bulkhead two. This gives me a great place in the shade for a large cooler for fishing and also gives me the longer cockpit sole for storing the 9' oars I'd like to use. One thing leads to another. You change one thing and you find yourself changing everything else.

    Another change came about because the boat ramp around the corner from my house is three miles down the Matanzas River from open water. There's tidal current and lots of boat traffic in the river so I envisioned using the motor a lot and wanted it inside the cockpit where it would be easier to mess with especially since I'm no spring chicken anymore. This is another case where I already had the equipment, my 4 HP Yamaha, and I needed to adapt it to the SCAMP. With permission from Mr. Welsford, he reluctantly agreed to the use of the over-sized motor in an inboard motor well. Because the motor is somewhat of a brute at 47 lbs., I wanted it centrally located and this dictated the use of twin rudders on either side of the motor. One thing leads to another.

    Another thing that was painfully obvious in comparing the "as-drawn" lug rig with my existing birdwing sail was that my birdwing mainsail was very much under-sized. This got me thinking about a bowsprit and a jib to help make up the difference. I was delighted to find bulkhead 2 and the bow transom sitting there waiting to contain a bowsprit with minimum fuss. At first I thought that a deployable bowsprit would be a problem with the birdwing mast in the way stepped at bulkhead 4 but then I realized that by making the slot at bulkhead 3 much wider than the one at the bow transom, I could insert the bowsprit at an angle and avoid the mast entirely. It just meant that the bowsprit needs to get wider at its tail end to finally fill the wider slot when the bowsprit is fully inserted. I hope it will work well but it's all pretty much an experiment.

    I would like to stay on John Welsford's good side but I must confess I'm a terrible person to work with. First off, I have the attention span of a two year old toddler so I tend to change my mind often and even go back to ideas that I had previously discarded. The other thing is I am fully immersed in this SCAMP build. I'm retired, single, and have nothing else that I have to do except build my SCAMP. This is a good thing for me but it may be an irritation for other people. I'm more of a fisherman than a sailor so fishing is darn important for my SCAMP. On the other hand, I can easily see me racing other SCAMPs to compare the birdwing rig with the big lug. So I'm building a fishing boat that will also have to race. This can be quite a problem but one I'm having a blast trying to solve. So when you SCAMPers out there realize I've extended the cabin forward, added a bowsprit and made the water ballast into a partitioned live well, don't hate me for it. Please remember it's all my fishing buddy's fault!











    Last edited by kenjamin; 03-27-2012 at 11:15 AM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    following closely, great pics.
    In fact, if you can saw a penciled line, apply glue, drive nails, and bring a modest measure of patience to the task, you can build and launch a smart and able craft in as few as 40 work hours. You need not be driven by lack of tools, materials, skills, or time to abandon in frustration a project you conceived in a spirit of pleasurable anticipation.

    -Dynamite Payson

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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    I think you need a bigger boat. Especially, a 50# motor and two rudders is a bad idea.

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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    I think you need a bigger boat. Especially, a 50# motor and two rudders is a bad idea.

    Nah.
    What Ken needs is a bigger motor. I bet a 25 would fit just fine in that space. And maybe a couple hundred more feet of sail. And extending that cabin just a wee bit more would allow this tidy little craft to sleep eight with room to spare. Don't forget the cup holders, twenty minimum.

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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    I'm glad you're having fun, Comrade. Looks like you're making good progress. . . .uh. . .if you can call that putting that ginormous powerplant smack dab in the center of everything "progress".

    Ah well, the fish will fear you.
    Amphibious Macroplankton Oughtredia doublendus
    Mostly found frequenting the littoral and estuarine zones in the southern half of the Salish Sea, though sightings have been recorded both north and south of this area, and occasionally, but rarely, inland, in freshwater environments. This species lives on micro-brewed beer and dutch-oven biscuits,and displays brightly colored nylon and gore-tex plumage during the rainy season. Approach with caution!

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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    Its going to make a nice live aboard once the cabin height is upped to six feet.

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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    You go Kenjamin! This ain't your first dance. The only one needs to be content with your boat is you.

    I do have a question: Maybe its just the photo, or my monitor, but is there a fillet, or just tape, where the motor well sides abut the transom?

    Kevin
    This new ship here is fitted according to the reported increase of knowledge among mankind. Namely, she is cumbered end to end with bells and trumpets and clocks and wires. It has been told to me she can call voices out of the air or the waters to con the ship while her crew sleep. But sleep though lightly. It has not yet been told to me that the sea has ceased to be the sea.--Rudyard Kipling

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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    Well... it'll be interesting.

    I'm surprised that John didn't insist on some sort of non-disclosure/no fotos agreement <G>
    David G
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    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    I occasionally have thoughts of putting a cabin on our 8' sailing pram for the pure silly fun of it. No motor well, however.

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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    Its going to make a nice live aboard once the cabin height is upped to six feet.
    Hey Jim,

    The cabin space almost doubled with the new mast location. If I get done in time to take the boat to the WoodenBoat Mystic Seaport Show at the end of June I'll be living out of the boat for an entire week. Having more space under roof to sleep in will be better for me. I doubt that I will have time to fit a proper cockpit tent so the extra cabin space will be much appreciated, at least by me.
    Last edited by kenjamin; 03-28-2012 at 08:32 AM.

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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    Quote Originally Posted by kenjamin View Post
    Hey Jim,

    The cabin space almost doubled with the new mast location. If I get done in time to take the boat to the WoodenBoat Mystic Seaport Show I'll be living out of the boat for an entire week. Having more space under roof to sleep in will be better for me. I doubt that I will have time to fit a proper cockpit tent so the extra cabin space will be much appreciated, at least by me.
    Of course we will want to see before and after pics.

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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    Quote Originally Posted by TerryLL View Post
    Nah.
    What Ken needs is a bigger motor. I bet a 25 would fit just fine in that space. And maybe a couple hundred more feet of sail. And extending that cabin just a wee bit more would allow this tidy little craft to sleep eight with room to spare. Don't forget the cup holders, twenty minimum.
    Hey Terry,

    The four horse is big but it's lighter than Yamaha's newer 4 HP which I believe was made from the 6 HP frame. My motor was built in 2005 when the 4 HP still had it own frame size, at least I think that's what happened. The really great thing about the motor is the remote tank. With my existing three gallon tank, I could have a range of 50 to 60 miles at half throttle and maximum hull speed. At that speed the motor is not working very hard at all and is fairly quiet but of course I'd much rather sail when I can. At 47 lbs. it's still fairly easy for me to lift out and store on the cockpit sole if I want.

    Don't worry, there will be plenty of rod and cup holders on my SCAMP. I may even get brave enough to reach the grouper and snapper twenty miles or so out.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    You go Kenjamin! This ain't your first dance. The only one needs to be content with your boat is you.

    I do have a question: Maybe its just the photo, or my monitor, but is there a fillet, or just tape, where the motor well sides abut the transom?

    Kevin
    Hey Kevin,

    They are small fillets with tape over. I bought some 1" and 1/2 bronze ring nails to make it all bullet proof but I haven't put them in yet.

    Thanks for your vote for builder's freedom. I got permission for the use of the birdwing mast, the inboard motor well and the twin rudders – just for the record. Extending the cabin forward was just irresistible to me so I just went for it. If I had to consult Mr. Welsford about every little change, I think it would drive us both crazy.

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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    Remote tanks are a great thing to have and its too bad the smaller ob's don't have them. My 5hp did, but I have downgraded to a 2.5 which doesn't. But 2.5 is enough power and at about 29# its half the weight of the 5.

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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Well... it'll be interesting.

    I'm surprised that John didn't insist on some sort of non-disclosure/no fotos agreement <G>
    Hey David,

    I asked for permission from Mr. Welsford before posting the pictures of the SCAMP birdwing rig found on the main SCAMP thread in Designs.

    You bring up a good question, though. Where does his design liability end and where does artistic license end? I think most designs have a disclaimer for people like me departing so far from the plans that covers them. Of course, you guys building for a living have to stick fairly closely to the plans if for resale value or to keep the designer happy. I very much want to keep Mr. Welsford happy too but it's hard for me to restrain myself when I think I've gotten a good idea that I want to execute. On the other hand, to an artist, there is no such thing like an end of artistic freedom.
    Last edited by kenjamin; 03-28-2012 at 08:51 AM.

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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    I'm glad you're having fun, Comrade. Looks like you're making good progress. . . .uh. . .if you can call that putting that ginormous powerplant smack dab in the center of everything "progress".

    Ah well, the fish will fear you.
    Hey James,

    I figure with a few 6 gallon tanks, I could be in South Beach, Miami by the end of the week and then refuel for fishing the Keys.

    Seriously now, when you think about it, we have much more to gain (less fossil fuel usage, less pollution, greener planet, etc.) by converting the big heavy hitters with their triple 200 HP boats to a fun amazing design like the SCAMP than we could ever hope to gain from converting all us small outboard users to a rowboat. You know in your heart it's true. Why don't you just come out and admit it? And didn't I see a 15 HP Honda on the stern of Rowan???

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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    Remote tanks are a great thing to have and its too bad the smaller ob's don't have them. My 5hp did, but I have downgraded to a 2.5 which doesn't. But 2.5 is enough power and at about 29# its half the weight of the 5.
    The other thing is that my 4 HP is only working about half as hard to do the same work your 2.5 HP is doing at close to full throttle.

    At half throttle the 4 HP Yamaha makes less noise than my Sailrite sewing machine. It could run for days at a time at that speed – the outboard, not the sewing machine.
    Last edited by kenjamin; 03-28-2012 at 08:55 AM.

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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    Kenjamin- I think this is how new discoveries are made. Rowan is the product, at least to some extent, of builder input/ tinkering. It sounds as if you are creating a general-purpose boat, which I never would have guessed for this design, (in fact, I would have thought of a cuddy on Xena before using a SCAMP). Trailering her should be a pleasure and really open up locations like Cedar Key, the Keys, the Barrier Islands, etc.. Should be a lot of fun. The access hole on bulkhead one is quite small. Is that space intended more as a flotation chamber? Looks great.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    Quote Originally Posted by potomac View Post
    Kenjamin- I think this is how new discoveries are made. Rowan is the product, at least to some extent, of builder input/ tinkering. It sounds as if you are creating a general-purpose boat, which I never would have guessed for this design, (in fact, I would have thought of a cuddy on Xena before using a SCAMP). Trailering her should be a pleasure and really open up locations like Cedar Key, the Keys, the Barrier Islands, etc.. Should be a lot of fun. The access hole on bulkhead one is quite small. Is that space intended more as a flotation chamber? Looks great.
    Hey Potomac,

    That hole in bulkhead 2 was cut for a sealable round port but then I decided to leave it open and use the $50 port on the cockpit sole. I may yet seal the hole with a port but for now the hole is still big enough so that I can stick my big head through the hole and rummage around for stuff. I may be living out of my SCAMP for a week at the end of June at the WoodenBoat Show at Mystic Seaport and I didn't want to be constantly messing with removing the port. A slightly less waterproof, hinged homemade port that I could actually lock up would probably be more useful for me at the show.

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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    Way to go Ken! Shes looking good,keep up the progress and dont forget to post pics as you go. Although your engine well has taken up a chunk outta your cockpit and transom,all things considered,it looks like it will work a treat,especially for YOUR NEEDS. Power to you. Cheers.

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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    Wasn't the entire point of that sealed forward compartment to provide flotation for recovery from capsize?

    Just sayin'.
    Amphibious Macroplankton Oughtredia doublendus
    Mostly found frequenting the littoral and estuarine zones in the southern half of the Salish Sea, though sightings have been recorded both north and south of this area, and occasionally, but rarely, inland, in freshwater environments. This species lives on micro-brewed beer and dutch-oven biscuits,and displays brightly colored nylon and gore-tex plumage during the rainy season. Approach with caution!

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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    Way to go Ken! Shes looking good,keep up the progress and dont forget to post pics as you go. Although your engine well has taken up a chunk outta your cockpit and transom,all things considered,it looks like it will work a treat,especially for YOUR NEEDS. Power to you. Cheers.
    I don't really like using the motor but to get my cousin to go fishing with me on my boat, it kind of has to be there. Also it's three miles to the open water of the Atlantic from my boat ramp and the wind and the current are not always cooperating with me so it becomes necessary sometimes. As far as outboards go my little 4 HP is fairly light, efficient, powerful and check that paint on the propellor!!!

  23. #23
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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    Quote Originally Posted by kenjamin View Post
    The other thing is that my 4 HP is only working about half as hard to do the same work your 2.5 HP is doing at close to full throttle.

    At half throttle the 4 HP Yamaha makes less noise than my Sailrite sewing machine. It could run for days at a time at that speed – the outboard, not the sewing machine.
    The 2.5 doesn't have to work hard, its much easier to move from one boat to another, and they're both happier with the lighter weight motor. I understand you already had the 4.

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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Wasn't the entire point of that sealed forward compartment to provide flotation for recovery from capsize?

    Just sayin'.
    If I ever get brave enough to go for the grouper fishing grounds twenty to thirty miles out then you can count on that hole being sealed. For sitting around a boat show at the end of June, I think I'll be OK but may throw together a locking plywood port. I like people but sometimes they steal especially when I'm walking around the boat show or out talking about "X" themed mast steps with folks like Dudley Dix. You should stop by the show, it's only about three thousand more miles for you than it is for me. Your point is well taken and I agree totally (when the time comes for true adventure, you can count on it being there).

    I've never been much of a camper but the idea of living out of my SCAMP during the show would be great fun (if I can find the right pillow-top futon mattress!). I should probably add "gypsy wagon" to the thread title.

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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    Oh, I'd certainly like to attend that particular boat show in June, though there's another one in September in Port Townsend that is actually even bigger and has a whole lot more small boats in addition to the high-falutin' yachts. Plus its only about 30 nm by water so I can actually sail there instead of having to drive so much. But I'll get over to Mystic some day.
    Amphibious Macroplankton Oughtredia doublendus
    Mostly found frequenting the littoral and estuarine zones in the southern half of the Salish Sea, though sightings have been recorded both north and south of this area, and occasionally, but rarely, inland, in freshwater environments. This species lives on micro-brewed beer and dutch-oven biscuits,and displays brightly colored nylon and gore-tex plumage during the rainy season. Approach with caution!

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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    Hey James,

    Do I get any Eco-points if I leave the motor at the house when I trailer the SCAMP to Mystic? I was thinking it would be a lot more fun to row and sail on that thar little pond of water they got up there at Mystic. I mean anyone can build a motor well, right??? Spent the entire day ripping fir, ugh! Now I got to glue it all back together.

    Beginning to see the light,
    kenjamin

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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    You should definitely leave that heavy, stinky thing behind whenever possible.
    Amphibious Macroplankton Oughtredia doublendus
    Mostly found frequenting the littoral and estuarine zones in the southern half of the Salish Sea, though sightings have been recorded both north and south of this area, and occasionally, but rarely, inland, in freshwater environments. This species lives on micro-brewed beer and dutch-oven biscuits,and displays brightly colored nylon and gore-tex plumage during the rainy season. Approach with caution!

  28. #28
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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    Don't like stinkpots either but sometimes it's a necessary evil. Definitely don't need it at Mystic because the estuary there is quite small. My cousin stopped by yesterday (he's my fishing buddy in St. Augustine) and he was impressed with the motor mount and especially the partitioned live well. With it we'll be able to keep 19 inch red drums alive and switch them out in case we catch one bigger since we are only allowed to keep two each and one each on some months. It's all about feeding the family. My family is my sister, my brother-in-law and their two hungry sons. If the other nephew and his wife show up then we've really got a clan to feed. With the new live well, we can keep the small but legal ones and return them unharmed (for the most part) if we catch a larger one of the same species. There's also a compartment for live pin fish (bait) and another for shrimp and mud minnows. It's going to be a real fishing machine. The only thing I like about the motor is that it provides a third mode of propulsion so increasing the chances of getting home without ever having to wimp out and call for help if the mast step fails, both oars break and we lose the paddle.

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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    Just had an idea. If you put a bathtub in it you'd have more options for racing. (And a hot shower for after would be nice, too)

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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    It already has a bathtub in it. Just duct tape over the scubbers and fill cockpit with fresh water. You might want to empty and plug the water ballast first.

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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    Found this image of the NACA 0008-34 foil section for the offset centerboard for those needing to make a router jig for machining their foils from scratch.


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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    Thought someone might find it interesting to see my photographic study of my SCAMP build. Even though I'm not the neatest of builders it seems like everything is lining up well or at least well enough. The starboard side of bulkhead 5 (the little section that lands in the middle of the offset centerboard) slid a tiny bit when it was glued and it doesn't help that the lightening hole for that was placed without regard to where the lightening hole was in the port side of bulkhead 5 so that hole looks a little off. All-in-all, though, I'm pretty pleased with it so far especially considering every single part was plotted out by hand, drawn and then cut out. The building jig table that SCAMP is built on certainly helps us less than perfect builders do a respectable job of it. I can tell you that the both garboard planks were exactly the same and both ends of both planks landed exactly where they were supposed to on the transoms.

    The box nearest the bow is there to contain the foot of my birdwing mast when I am walking it up into position at bulkhead 4.

    The bigger box in the water ballast area is for bait minnows and live shrimp for fishing. The water ballast on either side of that will also be live well storage for pin fish (for bait) on one side and for legal fish on the other side.


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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    I love it when a plan comes togeather.
    "Please be more specific or we'll choose to order a cheaper bilge-rat to replace you."

    ~seanz

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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    My problem is I can't seem to keep to the plan. For everything I change that's different from the "as drawn" plans there seems to be three or four other things that it effects.

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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    Quote Originally Posted by kenjamin View Post
    My problem is I can't seem to keep to the plan.
    Pffft! Plans are for people without Art Degrees, comrade! How bored would you be if your boat simply worked well and performed flawlessly straight out of the gate?
    Amphibious Macroplankton Oughtredia doublendus
    Mostly found frequenting the littoral and estuarine zones in the southern half of the Salish Sea, though sightings have been recorded both north and south of this area, and occasionally, but rarely, inland, in freshwater environments. This species lives on micro-brewed beer and dutch-oven biscuits,and displays brightly colored nylon and gore-tex plumage during the rainy season. Approach with caution!

  36. #36
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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    There are only so many ways us old guys can legally entertain ourselves. I just got a nice letter and a great drawing from Mr. Welsford that locates my present birdwing rig (with a bowsprit and a jib) on the SCAMP. He seems to be as curious as me in how well it will perform. I am trying my best to stay on his good side by keeping him in the loop with all my changes. And wait until you see how well the birdwing mast stores along SCAMP's gunwale. Even you might be impressed!

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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    I continue to be impressed by the fact that you think that having a mast that stores along the gunwale is worthy all of the expense, weight, hassle and performance disadvantages, if that's any consolation.
    Amphibious Macroplankton Oughtredia doublendus
    Mostly found frequenting the littoral and estuarine zones in the southern half of the Salish Sea, though sightings have been recorded both north and south of this area, and occasionally, but rarely, inland, in freshwater environments. This species lives on micro-brewed beer and dutch-oven biscuits,and displays brightly colored nylon and gore-tex plumage during the rainy season. Approach with caution!

  38. #38
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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    Maybe you missed the memo of my newest birdwing mast prototype being half the weight of the old one and 75% of the size. Maybe you can't understand how custom, hand-made prototypes are more expensive than mass produced production models of the same thing. Maybe you only see speed as a measure of performance while the ability to set or strike and store the rig at sea is ignored. Maybe it's just funny that John Welsford is curious about the performance of the rig while you seem to have the ability to judge its performance before the new sails have ever seen a breeze. Comrade, I love ya man, but you may have to open up that close-minded, stuck-in-tradition mind of yours just a little bit. It's an experiment and only the third prototype! It took Thomas Edison 100 tries before he came up with tungsten as a filament material. I, sir, am no Thomas Edison but I do have an idea that I think is worth developing and no amount of poo pooing on your part is going to keep me from trying.

    Why can't you get it in your head that this is a work in progress?
    Last edited by kenjamin; 04-11-2012 at 08:31 AM.

  39. #39
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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    This right here is the part that really drives my crazy, comrade:

    Quote Originally Posted by kenjamin View Post
    Maybe you only see speed as a measure of performance while the ability to set or strike and store the rig at sea is ignored.
    This is simply ridiculous. The lug rig with its short spars and minimal running rigging is vastly quicker and easier to set or strike at sea than any rig with an internal luff groove, shrouds, a gooseneck, a forestay, and a jib and forestay out on a bowsprit. C'mon now! I own both a stayed sloop and a lug rigged small boat myself, the differences are real. You really ought to actually try both kinds of rigs yourself before making those rash assumptions.

    I have plenty of sympathy for your desire to play and experiment all you want, K, but it seems like you dive in and make these "improvements" without really having a grounding of the baseline of what works in practice. I do want you to succeed, I really do. That's why I keep picking at you when you make a claim that isn't backed up.
    Amphibious Macroplankton Oughtredia doublendus
    Mostly found frequenting the littoral and estuarine zones in the southern half of the Salish Sea, though sightings have been recorded both north and south of this area, and occasionally, but rarely, inland, in freshwater environments. This species lives on micro-brewed beer and dutch-oven biscuits,and displays brightly colored nylon and gore-tex plumage during the rainy season. Approach with caution!

  40. #40
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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    This conversation is beginning to sound remarkably familiar.

  41. #41
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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    I continue to be impressed by the fact that you think that having a mast that stores along the gunwale is worthy all of the expense, weight, hassle and performance disadvantages, if that's any consolation.
    Kenjamin appears to not be alone in that regard James. One of the PNW designers Kees Prins did it as well for a raid boat he built--worked well apparently. Check out SCA's new magazine with it's article on featuring his work.

    Dan

  42. #42
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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    Dan, Kees is a friend and colleague of mine. In fact he bought the hull that he used as the basis for his new boat Fetch from me. We've talked plenty about sails and sail rigs and that dutch raid boat is neither particularly like the rig Kenjamin is building, nor is it something that either Kees or I would have on our own boats.
    Amphibious Macroplankton Oughtredia doublendus
    Mostly found frequenting the littoral and estuarine zones in the southern half of the Salish Sea, though sightings have been recorded both north and south of this area, and occasionally, but rarely, inland, in freshwater environments. This species lives on micro-brewed beer and dutch-oven biscuits,and displays brightly colored nylon and gore-tex plumage during the rainy season. Approach with caution!

  43. #43
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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    Well,

    You know the guy, so I'll give you the last word. However, the author of that article did mention just how nifty his curved masts were for clearing the cockpit for rowing--which sounded like our own forumite Kenjamin. Me? I'll stick with striaght sticks unless I do a crab claw or a wishbone boom.

    Dan

  44. #44
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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    Back in 2006 when wrote to Iain Oughtred asking permission to try my birdwing mast on his Caledonia Yawl, he sent me photo copies of an article about the Dutch boat with the masts of the extreme curvature. None of the pictures showed a good picture of how they were stepped and to this day I wonder about that. My masts are straight with a round cross section where they pass through the mast step so that they can rotate freely. It is the transition segment of my masts where it goes from radically curved to straight that it gets a bit tricky. For Xena's mast I eye-balled the shaping and did the transition area as best I could with a grinder. With the SCAMP's mast I did much more of the shaping using machining techniques involving a sixteen foot lever arm with a router attached at one end and the other end of the lever arm was attached to a large stainless steel hinge attached to the side of the garage. I was able to create a clean transition with the new set up. Also the new mast is not as overbuilt as Xena's mast but it is still pretty strong in my opinion.

    The statement, "Maybe you only see speed as a measure of performance while the ability to set or strike and store the rig at sea is ignored." is not an outrageous claim on my part. Nowhere in that statement do I say my rig is easier to set or strike than the lug rig. I'm only saying that there is more to performance than speed. James likes to go on the offensive when anything that might be considered to compete favorably with his beloved lug is even mentioned. I have some ideas about how my birdwing rig will compare to the lug rig but I haven't stated them here and don't appreciate being attacked for something I haven't said. This latest birdwing rig of mine for the SCAMP is totally untested so please give me a chance to try it out before I am accused of making outrageous claims about its performance. There will be plenty of time for that later!

    The only claims I've made about the new mast is that it is "pretty strong" (just made in paragraph one of this post) and that it conforms very well to SCAMP's gunwale. Dear James, where the heck is the unbacked-up claim? I just don't see it. Enlighten me!

  45. #45
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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    Ken,

    I'm not taking sides here, but I do have a comment about Xena's rig that might relate to your current Scamp experimentation.

    You've posted tons of pictures of Xena sailing under a variety of conditions, but I have yet to see one where the main is not full of wrinkles. For a fully-battenend sail to set with such a poorly defined shape is a bit unusual, and must certainly impair the performance.
    Have you considered why this is happening? Is it a simple matter of poor sail design, improper sheeting, or perhaps something more fundamental? I am aware that the CY is an easily-driven hull with a generous sail plan, and Xena does in fact sail, but I'm wondering how much performance you're sacrificing with your birdwing rig?

  46. #46
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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    Quote Originally Posted by TerryLL View Post
    Ken,

    I'm not taking sides here, but I do have a comment about Xena's rig that might relate to your current Scamp experimentation.

    You've posted tons of pictures of Xena sailing under a variety of conditions, but I have yet to see one where the main is not full of wrinkles. For a fully-battenend sail to set with such a poorly defined shape is a bit unusual, and must certainly impair the performance.
    Have you considered why this is happening? Is it a simple matter of poor sail design, improper sheeting, or perhaps something more fundamental? I am aware that the CY is an easily-driven hull with a generous sail plan, and Xena does in fact sail, but I'm wondering how much performance you're sacrificing with your birdwing rig?
    Good question, Terry. Truth is I have no idea. Todd Bradshaw told me he wasn't worried about the wrinkles as much as the too flat sail shape. He told me to taper the battens so that the sail would draw better and I did so. My experience is that the full battened main does take a lot of air to get going but there is a whole bunch of power when we set the jib. It's like turning on the afterburners when we pop that thing out. My SCAMP's main only has partial battens and is cut fuller than Xena's. It should perform better in light air. Also I'll have more opportunity to race against other SCAMPs and I'm looking forward to that. Not that I think my rig will be faster, it's just that I will finally get some direct comparisons on the performance. This is not a claim but I'm kind of thinking my birdwing rig will become more competitive with the big lug when it really starts blowin' and the lug has to reef. Compared to the lug my birdwing rig for the SCAMP is undersized and will not require reefing as soon. Once again, not a claim, but I suspect when the big lug has a couple of reefs in her, my birdwing will be coming into its sweet spot of performance. It is OK to think such a thing, isn't it? God I hope so.

    It's been a challenge for me to develop my birdwing rig in a way I would really like. The problem has been that life has a way of getting in the way of things that I'd really like to do. After my second wife passed away, I decided to move back to my hometown of St. Augustine to be closer to what's left of my family – sister, brother-in-law, nephews, cousins, uncles, aunts, etc. Spent a year remodeling my 2 bedroom cottage and that also took most all of my money. Money was also the reason for my gifting of 60% of the licensing rights to my employer, Florida State University. I simply didn't have enough money to defend a patent even if I found enough spare change to get one. The other thing was that I wasn't much of a sailor and the idea of racing under sail did not seem very appealing. Still not much of a sailor but much better than I used to be so at least now I feel like I could be competitive, especially in heavy air. For the record, that's a feeling – not a claim.
    Last edited by kenjamin; 04-12-2012 at 07:57 AM.

  47. #47
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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    Some new build pics:

    The "X" mast step.



    The channel for the bowsprit. The white plastic rail is to make the bowsprit slide better. The bowsprit itself will have two of those plastic rails on its bottom side.



    A mast extension (not finished yet) and it has more plastic rails so the mast slides in and out better.


  48. #48
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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    I had the pleasure of seeing Ken's SCAMP in person this week. She's coming together beautifully. That is one BIG 12 foot hull! I don't know nearly enough about sailing, physics, or aerodynamics to comment on the efficacy of the bird wing design, it is quite pretty though and remarkably easy to handle. The mast extension seems like it should be very effective for quick stepping of the mast. I'm looking forward to another visit to see her progress up close.
    "A man builds the best of himself into a boat- builds many of the memories of his ancestors." -Steinbeck

  49. #49
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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    Thanks Potomac for the kind words.

    Thought you might like to see my centerboard shaping operation:

    Here's the basic set up.



    It's far from perfect but I can clean it up with my grinder and a bunch of sanding.



    Still a lot of work to do.



    Inside I routed out pockets for my lead bricks. The tiny white holes were for the registration of the pockets.


  50. #50
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    Default Re: A fishing, cruising, racing birdwing SCAMP

    More pics of centerboard operation

    The results with the router machining operation – really rough but the basic shape is there waiting to be cleaned up with a grinder!



    Here the two halves are glued together:



    Here's the centerboard after cleaning up with the grinder:



    Here it is after a bunch of sanding. It's not perfect but it will definitely be the slickest foil I've ever made:


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