Senior Member
Re: What would it look like if everyone on the street carried concealed handguns?
Who do you include as belonging to your group you call "our"?Originally Posted by Bob Adams
Does that include untrained unsupervised self appointed neighbor watch captains who roam around self-policing their neighborhood? I find it hard to grasp that you are actually condoning the anarchy of self-policing vigilantes. That is what "shall issue" laws include.
Senior Member
Re: What would it look like if everyone on the street carried concealed handguns?
I'm sorry, I thought you were invoking the Swiss model of gun ownership. It's central points are mandatory conscription, and rather strict gun controls (by American standards).
I find it interesting though that you put fascism, genocide, and totalitarianism on the same level as the gun controls in a country you're touting as an example.
I'll just take my chances with those salt water joys.
AR
Senior Member
Re: What would it look like if everyone on the street carried concealed handguns?
Our, meaning any law abiding U.S. citizen of legal age. Even an antigun troll like you, if you could pass a background check.
Frozen Member
Re: What would it look like if everyone on the street carried concealed handguns?
Not putting anything on any level. Just pointing out the fact that you were putting words into my mouth so I thought you might like to see how that tastes. I also wasn't invoking any models of gun ownership. I was just using them as an example of politeness by a firearm bearing group of people. I say what I mean. Reading anything into what I say is your problem not mine.
The best helping hand you will ever receive is the one at the end of your own arm.
Senior Member
Re: What would it look like if everyone on the street carried concealed handguns?
When we're talking about the level of politeness of an armed society, the manner in which they're armed surely does factor in.
I'll just take my chances with those salt water joys.
AR
Senior Member
Re: What would it look like if everyone on the street carried concealed handguns?
Got it. You include untrained unsupervised self appointed community watch captains who roam around self-policing their neighborhood.
Your idealized world includes vigilante self-policing.
Frozen Member
Re: What would it look like if everyone on the street carried concealed handguns?
Sure it does. That is why I included any major city police department in there as well. Any answer as to why folks are so polite at gun shows and firing ranges then?
The best helping hand you will ever receive is the one at the end of your own arm.
Senior Member
Re: What would it look like if everyone on the street carried concealed handguns?
I have nothing to add
Senior Member
Re: What would it look like if everyone on the street carried concealed handguns?
Vigilantisim is unlawful. Therefore it would be illegal for them to own a firearm.
Senior Member
Re: What would it look like if everyone on the street carried concealed handguns?
The question was on the street, not in controlled environments.
I'll just take my chances with those salt water joys.
AR
Ancient Mariner
Re: What would it look like if everyone on the street carried concealed handguns?
OKAY..just for interest, these are usually posted predominantly in a neighborhood. I've seen them. I've read them. I have to think that anyone who has allegedly gone from say 7_11 to his girlfriends house or her father's or his father's regularly would have seen them.I looked at a map (assumed route), and he went through the front entrance and then past Zimmerman's truck.It may have been 1900hrs and not quite dark. It would have made sense to stop even without being told to identify himself to Zimmerman.. conflicting reports.Zimmerman said he(Martin) ran.On the tape.Also some here have mentioned the numbers of calls he has made since 07. But, no one has mentioned the number of burglaries that have taken place recently.
several points Zimmerman shouldn't have had a gun
Zimmerman should not have chased him
Trayvone should have seen the neighborhood watch sign and at dusk or later, walked a few hundred feet more than he wanted to to avoid the community
Zimmerman was apparently in the car. Martin should have identified himself. His girlfriends recollection is biased which is expected.
This incident is one wrong choice after another. I am not condoning either participant just attempting to make something concrete out of some of the rumors.
If I saw one of these, I wouldn't just ignore it!
Ancient Mariner
Re: What would it look like if everyone on the street carried concealed handguns?
Well Mark, regardless. I would not bwant to test one on the watch whether he has or hasn't a gun. Me, I would assume he is armed and act accordingly.
Ancient Mariner
Re: What would it look like if everyone on the street carried concealed handguns?
Neighborhood watch groups were designed to be the eyes and ears of police ...Taking or carrying a gun was his choice Mark.
Senior Member
Re: What would it look like if everyone on the street carried concealed handguns?
I believe you are wrong. Especially in the 22 states with 'stand your ground' laws. Can you cite the law you are thinking of?
The text of the 'stand your ground' law says explicitly that lethal force is justified
“to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony,”That is volunteer self-policing, vigilantism, plain and simple.
Last edited by SaltyBoatr; 03-28-2012 at 02:47 PM.
Senior Member
Re: What would it look like if everyone on the street carried concealed handguns?
Yes, I agree. Per law (see Florida code 776.0012(1)), George Zimmerman had a legal right to be armed, and to legally kill at his personal discretion. Free from legal and civil responsibility. It is really shocking that our society condones this, but they do.
new member
Re: What would it look like if everyone on the street carried concealed handguns?
ya jist kaint help yourself... insert a lie and then complain I"m not civil
The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
Personal failures are too important to be trusted to others.
Senior Member
Re: What would it look like if everyone on the street carried concealed handguns?
Lie, spin exagerate...what does it matter to a rightous crusader like AntiGunr. As long as it supports his cause.I wonder if he has a job or just trolls all day?
Senior Member
Re: What would it look like if everyone on the street carried concealed handguns?
What lie?
Read the code, the standard is "A person is justified in the use of deadly force if ... he or she reasonably believes...".
Reasonable belief is equivalent to personal discretion, if not, substitute the words "reasonable belief" into what I wrote.
Bottom line, is that the legal standard to kill is subject to what goes on in the mind of the volunteer citizen watch enforcer. Seems to blow the Constitutionally protected right of due process of law clean out of the water.
Last edited by SaltyBoatr; 03-28-2012 at 03:30 PM. Reason: sp
Senior Member
Re: What would it look like if everyone on the street carried concealed handguns?
You're worried about due process in one case when the DHS & Police forces all over the country ignore it on a daily basis? What about the Patriot Act or the detention provisions of the latest NDAA? They throw due process out the window!
Look at the big picture, please.
new member
Re: What would it look like if everyone on the street carried concealed handguns?
the word 'reasonable' is significant... it must be agreed to (by the proper authority) after the fact at the very least... if you walk about shooting and stabbing then claim that YOU thought it was reasonable don't cut no ice... if you didn't know that, then you are excused the lie (you have other problems)... if you DID know that then the accusation of lie stands
The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
Personal failures are too important to be trusted to others.
Ancient Mariner
Re: What would it look like if everyone on the street carried concealed handguns?
The nag looks a little tired salty, try not to ride him so hard.
Senior Member
Re: What would it look like if everyone on the street carried concealed handguns?
Reasonable belief is actually a well defined legal term. IIRC, it's something along the lines of "what a reasonable person would belief in that situation."
I'll just take my chances with those salt water joys.
AR
Senior Member
Re: What would it look like if everyone on the street carried concealed handguns?
I agree 100%. Still, the decision to pull the trigger is made by a personal discretion, and any yahoo appointing themselves as "neighborhood watch captain" is making that decision. According to the law: "a person is justified in the use of deadly force...to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony,”That amounts to legalized vigilantism to stop forcible felonies. All sorts of crimes are forcible felonies, slapping a woman on the butt is a forcible felony for instance.
new member
Re: What would it look like if everyone on the street carried concealed handguns?
it's preservation of life, Salty, not purse snatching...you don't get stupid as an excuse therefor the accusation of lie
The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
Personal failures are too important to be trusted to others.
Senior Member
Re: What would it look like if everyone on the street carried concealed handguns?
I looked it up in the Florida Statute. "forcible felony" is defined to include more than just preservation of life. Aggravated stalking for instance, which involves merely a threat of bodily harm (punch in the nose, etc.). In your case, I excuse you for being merely ignorant or stupid, or both.
Senior Member
Re: What would it look like if everyone on the street carried concealed handguns?
Hey, AntiGunr, would it have been OK with you if the vigilante beat him to death with a baseball bat instead?
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