Getting Salty an Traditional: real wood, no epoxy?

[Clinton B Chase]

Folks, I have been waiting to express my excitement about my recent hankering for building a traditional small boat, all tree wood, no epoxy. I want something salty, a row and sail boat, one that I could bring a small family on to safely explore an island, and row and sail alone or with a friend. Moreover, I very much need a change. I have built a lot of boats in my short career this far but they have ALL been with plywood, epoxy, or laminated/cold molded construction.

I WANT TO BUILD SOMETHING THE OLD WAY.

I have long been reading Culler's work and have dug back into his material. In fact, today I ordered plans today for Otter and for the Concordia Sloopboat. I also am looking at my dory design, the Deblois Street Dory, with new eyes, think of using all wood there. But in fact, I think my dory would be best with a ply garboard and epoxy to glue up a bottom.

Here is a little about my dory:
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...is+street+dory

But in fact, I think my dory would be best with a ply garboard and epoxy to glue up a bottom. So, I want saltier, and more traditional.

So, the Concordia Sloopboat has been haunting me a lot.
Here is a Blog post by Doryman:
http://dory-man.blogspot.com/2009/08...p-feather.html

Waldo Howland wrote a piece about the boat that is quite lovely. I am gathering a bunch of info from the Landing School where a number of Sloopboats, mainly the larger one (Buzzards Bay Sloopboat by Culler) were built.

Article here:
http://www.carmansrivermaritime.org/Sale/culler.html

So, that is where I am at. Still open to more designs.

But the trick here is that the experience of building the boat is as important as the boat itself. I do want something that I can take my kids out in and I do want something that can be rowed for auxiliary power, but mainly a sailboat. I need it to fit in my 15x21' building space as well! Most importantly, I want to be a purist about the project, maybe, for the sake of learning. That being said, I don't think I want red lead around my shop with kids at home, and I have not decided how I will store the boat. I am seriously considering a small slip, but the finances may not allow it which would mean she'd be a trailer boat. I am not averse to using epoxy if I have to, say, in scarf joints. But I would like to build something the way Culler would do it. As he used to say, "the old ways work".

[Daniel Noyes]

if your liking culler's concordia sloop boat design then a Hampton or Isle o' Shoals boat from Chapelle's "American Small Sailing Craft" should knock your socks off. These are the lines from real historic hulls not Chapelle's own design work.
These boats were being built in and around Newburyport Ma. at the time that record breaking clippers like Dreadnaught were being built at the same locale.

Gardner has a beautifull double ended small Hampton in his building classic craft but no lines to build to, there must be lines available f4rom Mystic though

[James McMullen]

Clint, I have to say I totally agree that the process of building traditional lapstrake cedar-on-oak is simply the most sublime and satisfying form of woodworking I have ever encountered. It even beats out luthierie and carving. Alas, there are many reasons why it is not always the best choice these days if nothing but practicality is considered, but since when is art supposed to be about practicality anyways?

Go for it, amigo!

[Daniel Noyes]

oops Hampton boats are in Wooden Boats to build and use...

Here's a excelent article with photos including Cadete and a transom stern Hampton looks alot like the sloop boat actually

http://www.hampton.lib.nh.us/hampton...ardner1979.htm

[David G]

Clint, Clint, Clint...

If you persist in this folly... we may have to drum you out of the StickyFingers (elbows/earlobes/eyebrows) Club <G>

Seriously... if you decide to go ahead, you will have a ball. Enjoy!!

[keyhavenpotterer]

Clint, feast your eyes on this traditional build of an Oughtred Arctic Tern, surely one of the most beautiful boats ever drawn.

http://thetroublewitholdboats.blogspot.co.uk/

[sailoar]

How about a solid-wood Penny Fee? With a little decking, it would look a lot like that Sloopboat, but it would have the much more useful lug yawl rig, the details would all be worked out, and I bet that both the sailing and rowing abilities would be a good bit more finely tuned than in an old design. Or is part of your desire to replicate an historical boat?

[James McMullen]

Oooh! Sailoar is on to something, I think! Which of Oughtred or Vivier's refined recreational designs would you most like to have in trad. lap? I'd build a Seil 18 starting tomorrow if I had the spare time and money.

[Sayla]

I have long been reading Culler's work and have dug back into his material. In fact, today I ordered plans today for Otter and for the Concordia Sloopboat. I also am looking at my dory design, the Deblois Street Dory, with new eyes, think of using all wood there. But in fact, I think my dory would be best with a ply garboard and epoxy to glue up a bottom.

Do you mean Albert Strange's Otter? If so, I have been drawing lines for it in CAD (from the book "Sailing Boats from Around the World") and may be of some help if I get more done - I well considered it for an overnighter for the family, but while drawing it I decided I'd like a boat with more freeboard for the family (lots of creatures 'round here) - beautiful boat though.

one that I could bring a small family on to safely explore an island, and row and sail alone or with a friend.

decking, cabin, or neither?

sayla

[landlocked sailor]

Clint, my interests in woodworking tend toward the tradtional method; solid wood, hand tools and all that. The first boat I built was Rich Kolin's Heidi from his book Traditional Boatbuilding Made Easy. Easy it wasn't but it was very enjoyable. That was in '99. Since then I have built a number of boat using the sticky stuff; now I will avoid it if at all possible. Kolin's second book Building Catherine builds a lapstrake on steambent frames Whitehall. My own version has been planked up awaiting frames while other projects got in the way. I also have the plans for Gartside's Skylark, reviewed in WB as "an able stable daysailer". I also have the plans for Culler's Buzzards Bay Boat. Ah, so many boats.....Rick

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

I have a copy of Culler's "Otter" plans. The plans are "traditiona"l meaning everything is there if you can find it. Be prepared to do some head scratching.

[Tim Marchetti]

The Concordia looks very salty and traditional. I'm sure you would make a fine job of it. I hope to build a real wooden boat someday too, but I'm thinking much smaller like Harry Bryan's Ladybug

[Full Tilt]

The Concordia Sloop Boat is very close to perfect in my eye. I'd like to see a few more angles of her under sail so to compare better the Hampton boat. The picture of the sloop rigged Hampton boat displays a very graceful line that I can't find in the CSB pics. Thanks Clinton and Daniel for giving me two designs for my 'top ten' list.
Mike

[Clinton B Chase]

Sayla, no cabin, I mean Capt RD CUller's Otter

I'm ready for head scratching as C' Chuck mentions...I've never not scratched my head on a boat yet. But this one I want to scratch a lot...means more learning. Rick, thanks for your thoughts...the Catherine is pretty but too easy. I need a challenge.

I am going to look into the Hampton....native to my waters, so that is a plus.

[davebrown]

Great, Great Great. Concordia is pretty close to perfect, given Culler's sensibility. Hvae you considered a solid timber Coquina?

[Clinton B Chase]

Today I rifled through an old plans collection at the Landing School and found the Buzzards Bay Sloopboat plans that they had redrawn from the Culler plans. The School built a handful with ply planking for some or all of them and laminated stem and keel. We thought we had the Concordia Sloopboat plans archived, couldn't dig them up, but I have them on order anyway.

I am entertaining Vivier Ilur and need to look into the Hampton as well. This ILUR is all Teak built!
http://vivierboats.com/albumsen/Sail...ICT5237-1.html

The Concordia SB is hard to shake off these past weeks. You know when that happens it means something. If I go with this design, carvel or lapstrake will be a big question. I'd love to keep the boat in the water.

[Sailor]

I know she's nothing like Swallow but I can just picture the Swallows and the Amazons in a boat just like the sloop boat. She looks so shippy and suited to the task. She's got my vote.

[boteswayn]

Feather is a beauty, Clint. And she sails like a dream. I have not yet sailed her, but have sailed in company and she's hard to keep up with. She doesn't like to work to weather in a blow, but who does? If you build a Concordia Sloopboat, it might inspire me to build one also. I've wanted to for a long time.

Michael
http://dory-man.blogspot.com

[jalmberg]

I never heard of the Sloop Boat before, but I've always wanted an 18' boat as my 'last boat'. Like the article writer you linked to, I think 18' is about the perfect size daysailer, and the Sloop Boat is one of the nicest boats I've ever seen. Will add it to my list!

Still atop my own personal list is the Mackinaw Boat. It has enough sail power to go even in low wind conditions (the norm here on Long Island Sound in summer), and doesn't have a half-deck to get in the way.

Note how this one is rocketing along in what looks like a 8-10 knot breeze. A high-performance, traditional boat!

[earling2]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but Culler's Sloop Boat was found to be desperately tiddly when they built it at the Landing School. The next one had another foot of beam. It was written up somewhere or other a long time ago.

ED: I think it was at the Landing School, could have been somewhere else (Apprenticeshop?) but I'm sure it was the sloop boat, and I'm sure it was considered a pretty poor performer as drawn.

[Clinton B Chase]

You may have read that, but I spoke with my colleagues at the Landing School and they liked the boat. One kept one off Cape Porpoise and liked how it sailed. THe program manager thought it would be a good boat for my uses and Casco Bay. Another instructor is fond of the details in Culler's boats.

They built the Sloopboat carvel cedar on oak. The Buzzards Bay 19 was planked plywood and they laminated the stem and some of the backbone. They actually made a number of improvements construction wise and had some plans drawn. But it is still very much a BB Sloopboat.

In thinking with the end in mind, I may need to plank the boat in a way that can deal with a trailer at least some of the time. I will likely have a mooring for weekends, but keep the boat trailered for peace of mind. This is still under consideration. If we go this route, carvel won't be practical. Lapstrake might work for these conditions done in all solid wood with some goos or perhaps with ply for the underbody and cedar for topside strakes. All else would be done traditionally except with some new goos. Perhaps a neo-trad. build.

Regarding the last post, "poor performer" is quite difficult to quantify. What did they expect from a workboat derived, heavy keeled traditional boat? Performace is important: was it seaworthy? Did it accomplish the designed goals? What is "performance"? Did it carry a load for trips? Performance is not just about speed.

[sailoar]

Clint, what seems to be the current method for making solid wood lapstrake to be trailer-friendly? Is it a small cove in each face of the lap, with flexible sealant put in there during assembly? Will such a method let the boat withstand drastic changes in moisture and temperature, like sailing one day and driving through the desert the next?

[zauberberg]

To my eyes the Concordia Sloopboat is very, very salty indeed, the pictures of her lying on the beach and getting rowed out are just irresistable. But then also have a look at Paul Gartside's work, and not forget the 17 ft quoddy boat of our forumite Roger Long...

[Sharpie21]

Clint, if rowing is one of your priorities in your new boat, the Culler designs you are thinking about are not set up for such use. I have been in touch with Glenn, owner of Feather, and am told that he uses a removable seat which straddles the centerboard. My recollection is that he considers it awkward and uncomfortable.
My own boat, a similar sized v-bottom Culler design Lady Grace, suffers from the same issue. I am considering a centerboard modification to allow her to be rowed more comfortably.

Not trying to dissuade you from considering a Culler design, but the designs you have mentioned are not the ideal rowing setups.

[Clinton B Chase]

I'm not interested in rowing. I mentioned the Otter simply because it is a Culler design I have loved for some time.
http://clintchaseboatbuilder.blogspo...christmas.html

I will want to stick oars out as auxiliary power, however. Thanks for the thoughts from Feather. I was thinking that the arrangement did not look rowing friendly.
What about stand up oarlocks? I am also thinking two people side by side either side of trunk with an oar.

Here are some fun shots of Culler boats that have been built at the Landing School

Culler Concordia Sloopboat by Clint Chase Boatbuilder, on Flickr

Culler Concordia Sloopboat by Clint Chase Boatbuilder, on Flickr

Culler Concordia Sloopboat by Clint Chase Boatbuilder, on Flickr

Buzzards Bay 19

Culler Buzzards Bay Sloopboat by Clint Chase Boatbuilder, on Flickr

010 by Clint Chase Boatbuilder, on Flickr

[Clinton B Chase]

To my eyes the Concordia Sloopboat is very, very salty indeed, the pictures of her lying on the beach and getting rowed out are just irresistable. But then also have a look at Paul Gartside's work, and not forget the 17 ft quoddy boat of our forumite Roger Long...

Thanks for that thought..the Quoddy boat is quite something. It is beautiful and the cabin inviting...

[keyhavenpotterer]

Walter Simmons Newfoundland Trap Skiff? Work boat heritage and drawn for traditional construction.

http://www.duck-trap.com/2002nts.html

Ed

[P-man]

Stirling & Son sells plans for a 21' frigate's longboat with a gaff cutter rig that's very traditional.

[Clinton B Chase]

Brian good thought I do like the Wherry.

Today my reality check man (he is little and sits on my shoulder) suggested I continue to work on my Deblois Street Dory revisions and build it. So I did some more hull work. This one has one fewer plank per side.

Again, the only ply would be in the large garboard and I would likely use some nice doug fir ply if I can find some with a light glass sheathing. If I am going to use ply, let it be domestic for crying out loud. WRC for topside planks, local cedar with pretty knots for bottom planks. I would build this like a traditional Swampscott used to be...just like Manning shows in The Dory Book: frames set on bottom, inverted onto a curved 2x10 strongback shored to ceiling, and dory lapped.

What do you think?


ModelBody.1 by Clint Chase Boatbuilder, on Flickr


ModelPro.1 by Clint Chase Boatbuilder, on Flickr


ModelPersp.1 by Clint Chase Boatbuilder, on Flickr

Bear in mind that the inner surface of the hull is modeled. The outer surf/outside plank laps are next after I sleep on this a bit.

[Tim Marchetti]

Look at you, working the rhino! It looks like I'm out of a job. Not a bad plan to build and develope your own design. You're just a young pup. You have years of new boats ahead of you.

[Clinton B Chase]

Tim, thanks for the comments! Rhino has hurt my brain a lot, still a ways to go. You are right, I am young, I have lots of boats ahead.

I have reworked the lines quite a bit since you got them into Rhino for me. Now I have to decide whether my bottom as shown is the inside or outside surface and same for transom...the bottom will be 3/4" and transom, 3/4". It will add or subtract a lot.

Does anyone have lines, drawings to share of the 17' Hampton out of "Boatbuilding" by Chapelle?

[James McMullen]

I thought you were going for more of a straight sailboat like that Culler one. Your dory is a Sail and Oar boat--they are not at all the same same sort of experience. Not that there's anything wrong with a sail and oars boat. . . .

[Clinton B Chase]

No, I think the Sloopboat is also on the sail and oar spectrum, just a different part of it.

I am exploring James, and life will keep changing, too, so who knows what will happen. I do know I need to use some real wood though!

[John Meachen]

Very nice looking dory.May we expect to see the entire boat modelled and displayed here?

[Dave Hadfield]

Good for you. I'd like to do the same thing, some day!

But one thing that working on Drake has taught me (65 years old this year, and never had a plank off) is to use the finest materials you can buy. There are 2 reasons -- first is that building becomes a far greater pleasure, and second is that only fine materials will allow the boat to last. Really worth it.

Think tight-ring cypress and live oak and teak.

As for trailer issues, you can reduce dry-out a great deal by parking in the shade, and running a sprinkler under it before launch. You can also make a "skirt" for it on the trailer, and keep a humidifier under there.

Good luck,

Dave

[potomac]

Clint- Given your manner of making a living and the fact you have a family, I can't imagine choosing a design that didn't haunt you. I will, however, second Paul Gartside. He has several designs in the general size you seem to be considering as well as some smaller designs that are quite beautiful. An active, living designer could be of some benefit, though probably less to a professional. 124 and 164 are both Carvel on bent frames. If you wanted to go a bit smaller as a potential warm-up, the 12' #130 is lovely in lapstrake and bent frames. Whenever I entertain big boat, 10 year build dreams, I only imagine a solid wood, plank on frame design, and Gartside's work is certainly fuel for that fire.

[Daniel Noyes]

There was a concordia sloop boat for sale in Salem a couple yrs ago, it was either at Winter Island or at the marina that hosts the Boston Classic Boat Show (held in Salem) out behind the house of 7 gables, same deck layout and paint scheme as the Concordia you posted photos of, could it be the same boat?

your dory is probably a little more versatile than the sloop boat and likely as quick a sailer.

[Clinton B Chase]

Actually, Paul doesn't have any designs that are jumping out. The trick I find myself in is that it takes something really special like Culler's Sloopboat to lure me away from building my own design.

Another hull I've been working on slowly is the Calendar Islands Yawl. I initially envisioned this as a strip composite hull, but maybe traditional?

CIY by Clint Chase Boatbuilder, on Flickr

I've acquired plans for a Vivier Aber, too.

AberZimmermann02 by Clint Chase Boatbuilder, on Flickr

Dave, that is an interesting idea putting a skirt around the boat on the trailer to keep in more humid air. My driveway is on the North side of the house which is a plus, too.

Sure, John, I'll keep sharing the Deblois St Dory here, too. There are a couple other threads, too, featuring the boat. It was just in the Maine Island Trail newsletter. A good thread on Dories
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...formance/page5

[Thad]

Daniel, that CSB is still there at Hawthorne Cove and Jon is now trying to sell the Rozinante he had bought, going back to the sloop boat. So when are you starting Clint? And what boat?

[Clinton B Chase]

Thad, When I am starting is easy: fall.

What boat is the question. I am feeling close to my dory right now and it will be a nice way to get the fam out (rowing). I'd plank in all wood....but ply for gbd.

The sloopboat is still haunting...plans on the way.

[Daniel Noyes]

Hawthorne Cove! thats the place, thanks Thad.
If memory serves you have done a Hampton or Isle O' Shoals or some other local lapstraked type, building the hull over three molds then steaming in ribs.

Also Clint, what are your thoughts on the Kingston type lobster boats from our South Shore?

[Clinton B Chase]

Dan I am familiar with the Culler Kingston type and one other...they seemed lower freeboard than ideal for bringing out kids aboard.

Here is a 17' HamptonBoat. These craft are utterly local for me...I am very interested, but the lines aren't always as fair or eye pleasing in the original workboats.

HamptonBoat1938_Fig6 by Clint Chase Boatbuilder, on Flickr

Thanks to John who sent me the link above to Hamptons
http://www.hampton.lib.nh.us/hampton...apelle1938.htm

Perhaps may greatest concern regarding a plank on frame project is the drying out the planks may go through over the year + of planking. This would be a side project. Any thoughts? To keep my shop humidity up over that long time may get old...

[Thad]

Daniel, I have built a few boats that way but you may be thinking of the Beetle No Man's Land boat.

[Sayla]

Actually, Paul doesn't have any designs that are jumping out.

Design #124 always jumps out at me, and has place on my 'to do' list - he even says "It's one for the purists"



sayla

[Roger Long]

the lines aren't always as fair or eye pleasing in the original workboats.

Years ago, decades actually, I heard this criticism of Chapelle's books. I've forgotten who said it but it was an informed opinion, "Ever notice how all workboats in America look like they were designed by the same guy?"

A study of historic photographs supports this point of view. I wouldn't let that stand in your way of building that boat though.

[Thad]

Fair is the builders job, facilitated by wood.

[Clinton B Chase]

Fair is the builders job, facilitated by wood.

Exactly, or more so the loftsman's job, facilitated by wood battens and a good eye. My gut says there may need to be more substantial reworking for the Hampton to work as a rec boat. Not sure I want to get into that now.

I was recently talking to my wife about her thoughts (can't forget to do that!) who fondly recalled several dory excursions we did when I had access to a Alpha-Beachcomber tied up at Maine Yacht Center. We did a few rows with the kids, but she felt the boat was too big for two to row with kids. Soon THEY will be able to row. The nice thing about rowing with kids is the boat stays flat, and when the boat is not taking out kids, the sail can go up.

Roger, the Hampton boats are pretty funny looking. They are so down by the bow in profile with a nasty hump in the sheer or just a flatness to the sheer. Also, they are incredibly fine forward. Why is that?

[Roger Long]

Roger, the Hampton boats are pretty funny looking. Why is that?

I don't quite remember. I'll have to go back and look at my notes from when I was talking to the builders.

[Clinton B Chase]

I lined off the DSD for 5-strakes. The idea would be to build true dory style.


5-strake.1_persp by Clint Chase Boatbuilder, on Flickr


5-strake.1_pro by Clint Chase Boatbuilder, on Flickr

What do you think. Pretty salty? Or too refined?

[keyhavenpotterer]

Still plugging for the Arctic Tern. http://thetroublewitholdboats.blogsp...traked-up.html