New low-cost "hardware store" racing class; input on proposed rules New low-cost "har

[upchurchmr]

Petros,

I think the varied courses are a great idea so no special purpose boat has an unsurmountable edge due to one single strength.
The 100kg load brings us back to evenly weighting the crew. If I'm the heaviest crew on the course, do I still have to carry 100kg? If you want a weight load then just set a standard total weight of crew + adjusted weight. Make it 300# for one man boats, 400# for 2 man boats.

Sailnstink - the suggestion seemed to be that we all sail in PDracers. Thats not much of a design improvement contest. I think there should be no limits on boat type. Sand boxes and kite sailors should be welcomed. I would really like to see the single purpose boats have to compete evenly. A kite sailor that can make the three different courses well deserves to win. Perhaps the PDracer on hydrofoils would be capable enough to win. Lets prove it, or not. My personal interest would be to see the unconventional do well. You actually misunderstand, I like multihulls and always felt excluded, especially when I blew past monos on all points of the wind. I don't particularly like classic monohulls, but they ought to have just as much chance.

Don't limit any boats. That was the origin of my suggestion not to limit beam. Don't limit "sitting out aids" including IC canoe hiking boards, toe ropes, and trapeze wires. The logical conclusion of that is no one is allowed outside the gunnels - laser sailors beware. This is a race correct?

[Plumbtex]

While a narrow beam limit essentially specs a monohull, no beam limit would essentially spec a multihull. The choice has to be made.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

......
The object is to create a class of good performing day sailors that allows maximum creativity on the part of designers and builders, and stay within a limited budget to promote entry level sailing and encourage more people to get involved.
....
Comments, ideas or suggestions?

What does your group mean by "Day Sailing"?

I'd guess that it means - No Bunks, No Cooker, and probably No Head - but beyond that, is the nature of the game travel from place to another place - or is it sailing about on a small lake??

Another type of course suggests itself -the Out-n-Back Pub Raid - Here the competitors turn up at an agreed slipway and race to a suitably distant Pub or Eatery - They score the first race - eat drink and make merrie before starting the second race - back to the slipway.

[upchurchmr]

Do you actually have to make the choice? Let the creativity free to see if it actually does.
The next question is - is this actually BAD? Which seems to be implied (perhaps only in my mind).

Would narrow beam actually spec a foiled Moth? For those who have to go faster.

While a narrow beam limit essentially specs a monohull, no beam limit would essentially spec a multihull. The choice has to be made.

[upchurchmr]

This actually has a lot of merit if it could be a bit limited. My favorite race was called Turnback Canyon, in Austin, Texas. This was a 2 day race, 25miles up a lake which narrowed to more of a winding river at the Turnback, camp over nite, return the next day. The band and beer party was optional. This was an interesting "realistic" race that had significantly different results from an around the bouys race. I guess 35 years ago it was what we thought of as an adventure race. Texas 200, Florida 120, etc.

What does your group mean by "Day Sailing"?

I'd guess that it means - No Bunks, No Cooker, and probably No Head - but beyond that, is the nature of the game travel from place to another place - or is it sailing about on a small lake??

Another type of course suggests itself -the Out-n-Back Pub Raid - Here the competitors turn up at an agreed slipway and race to a suitably distant Pub or Eatery - They score the first race - eat drink and make merrie before starting the second race - back to the slipway.

[Petros]

Don't limit any boats. That was the origin of my suggestion not to limit beam. Don't limit "sitting out aids" including IC canoe hiking boards, toe ropes, and trapeze wires. The logical conclusion of that is no one is allowed outside the gunnels -

the intent is that they also be easy to roof top or trailer, with no beam limit it would make it difficult for some to bring boats to the events and still be competitive. It seems to me we have to have some kind of beam limit, this is normal with most "box rule" classes. With more participation we can add a multi and mono hull classes, but not to start out. hiking boards adn toe ropes are allowed, as long as the appendages are within the width. I wanted to excluded trapezes to keep it simple and safe, but as far as the crew can hike out with toe straps is perfectly okay within my proposed rules.

I forgot about including "raid" type events within this class, we actually discussed this with our group. A well designed raid event is the ultimate in a "real" race as well, just out and back to a distant landmark or location. Yes, we should include at least one of those events in the 3 or 4 season events, l like the idea very much. This would also keep people from bringing poorly made boats, they will DNF if they fall apart. Of course managing such a race is more complicated, but across a large lake is not a bad "practical" race.

I am too a bit on the heavy side (not too much), in such small boats a light weight crew will have an advantage. Having a minimum crew plus cargo weight is an excellent idea to keep the advantage to the design of the boat, not the weight of the crew. I will include that in the suggestions with our next meeting. I like it.

It may be that "ugly" scows dominate the most competitive designs, so be it. these are also easy to build, that was one of my goals. Scows are also very practical and useful boats, even if not elegant. Ugly john boats are still very popular for fishing, no reason why a similar looking sailboat could not become popular.

[upchurchmr]

Last comment about beam.

Have you seen Frank Smoots Trimaran. diy-tri.com or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8kUq4BouS0. Thread at http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/mul...ver-41318.html The last version weighed about 150# if I remember right. 5'+ beam for transporting, 10' unfolded, simple easy to raise sail/ mast combo.

Your 8' beam would eliminate this boat, which I submit is a great realization of your basic concept. Clever, innovative, and practical. Is this what you want to eliminate? it could easily be reduced in weight by eliminating the sit inside main hull - using a smaller hull and sitting on the sides of the hull from nets/ trampolines hung from the fixed crossarms.

Is this really what you want to eliminate?

[Petros]

Yes I would eliminat it, it is too large and complicated. THat would be good for a multihull class that we can add later.

I will share your comments with the committee, the idea of eliminating the beam limit, and make it only a "stowed" width. We will discuss if it is consistent with the goals of this contest. If everyone else likes it, we will adopt it as a rule. It is not entirely up to me, so if your idea is liked we might adopt it. There are certain types of courses where a multi-hull may not always have an advantage, and it has to last the whole season in a variety of races.

All of the suggestions will be shared and discussed, including yours (and I will point out the enthusiasm for this rule change that you have been showing on this forum).

Any other suggestions I should consider? THE committee has been pestering me to finalize the rules, so you are running out of time to make suggestions.

Thanks for all of your inputs, there are many thoughtfull replys that I will incorporate into the rules, and will all will get shared with the committee.

[Lewisboater]

deleted content.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

With a $500 dollar limit the rig is likely to be a major part of the cost.

How do you plan to deal with purchase price of secondhand bits - I've seen entire windsurfer rigs sell for less than a tenner on Ebay - And I've been offered them for free.

[tdem]

The cargo box idea seems to go right against the ease of portability you seem to want. Seriously, where are you going to get 100kg?? Seems to serve little purpose. You could try a rowing race or something like that instead?

[Petros]

P.I.- The idea is for contestants to use their ingenuity to build a competitive sailboat with low cost materials (not costly boat hardware), if you just buy rigging from a catalog, you will break the budget. Use your imagination and you will find lots low cost ways to accomplish the same thing that is done costly hardware, they way it was always done before there were marine suppliers and mail order catalogs.

Second hand parts will only be allowed if new cost is counted (so it saves the builder costs, but does not reward him for being better at salvage). I do not want it to become a contest to see who can salvage the best materials, since cost is one of the primary measures, there has to be a uniform way to measure it. So only retail new cost for materials that anyone can buy anytime without bulk or wholesale access.

Tdem- The cargo box is a way of keeping the boats practical, a Coleman cooler full of sand should weigh about 100kg. I am thinking that I might change that to crew and cargo total weight must be 500lbs, so lighter crews would have to add more weight than heavier crew. this also gives the possibility of wearing the weights on the crew to be more competitive in high winds with the heavier crew. this puts the focus more on the performance of the crew and boat, rather than on the weight difference between crews which could easily be well over 200 lbs.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

..... this also gives the possibility of wearing the weights on the crew to be more competitive in high winds with the heavier crew. ......

Be very very careful - the general rules for sailboat racing already have provision for crews wearing weights - you really really don't want some poor sailor sinking just because he took an accidental swim.

http://www.sailing.org/tools/documen...%5B8222%5D.pdf

Rule 43...


N.B. see also Appendix A for how to score a series of races having a variable number of entrants per race.

[Petros]

I am aware of that rule, I understand why it is limited. But it seems to me that I weigh about 200 lbs, I wear a PFD rated for my weight. I have a disadvantage in light winds against a sailor that weighs 110 lbs, but in heavy winds I have the advantage since I can counter balance a much higher healing moment. If someone wants to fill their pockets with 40 lbs of weight, and wear an appropriate PFD, what is the difference? It means we have to enforce the correct PFD rating (could be done at weigh-in), this might be problem.

Or perhaps we should just add the balance of the weight to the cargo compartment, and keep rule 43 in force? It would be safer.

The idea is all of the boats will compete with the same design crew/cargo weight, keeps them strong and safe, even if some events will not require the extra ballast.

[tdem]

In the end I don't think there will be an advantage to a heavier or lighter crew, because boats can be designed accordingly. There is no restriction on sail area, that is all the handicapping you need, in my view.

Keep restrictions on boats to a minimum, but have activities that encourage "practicability". Kind of like the everglades challenge filters. Have a "3 person on each boat" race, or something like that. You could have half the fleet sailing at a time, and pile everyone into the remaining boats. That way everyone gets to know eachother too.

Finally, who cares if the boats aren't practicable? Innovation always comes from extreme classes. If you want to find new building techniques etc., then no limits is the way to go. The techniques can always be applied to more practicable boats later.

And finally finally, I wish I lived close enough to take part :-)

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

......

Or perhaps we should just add the balance of the weight to the cargo compartment, and keep rule 43 in force? It would be safer.

The idea is all of the boats will compete with the same design crew/cargo weight, keeps them strong and safe, even if some events will not require the extra ballast.

I'd leave rule 43 in place - as you say - safer.

So, are singlehanders ruled out? That, I think, would be a major loss.

Handicapping is an extremely complex subject - and anyone seeking to tackle it should be aware of the calculations used in IOR, IMS, Channel Handicap, and the Laser 500 fleets - this is not to be undertaken lightly.
http://www.sunstonesailing.com/backgrnd/backgrnd.html << one surprising result

However - since you could reasonably expect large scale "Fleet Spread", near wilderness shores, and unpredictable weather - it might be reasonable to insist on survival gear - basic shelter, means of preparing a hot drink/meal, sleeping bag (there are races in Britain which insist on these).
You could then say that a singlehander would have a minimum weight for crew+gear of 250 lbs which can be made-up with moveable ballast if needed.

The survival gear does not count towards the $500 limit.

Can I fly the tent as a spi?

[upchurchmr]

Who knows where this would be held?
I looked up Petros and there is no location.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

The original post has
"A small group of us in the Puget Sound area are exploring the idea"

So I'm guessing the top left hand corner of the "contiguous 48".

[Petros]

I was intending that we would both have single hand and two crew events. I wanted the cargo capacity just to keep the boat practical, and it would be a way of evening up crew weight differences since it is easy to do (and I am thinking the cargo/ballast should just be stowed). Not all of the races would have this requirement.

I would also like one long distance "raid" type event per season, with a "le Mans" style beach start, and you have to carry everything for the day on the boat (no weight limit). Safety gear and personal equipment of course will not count towards the cost (we do not want to discourage that), only the cost of building the actual boat counts. Spinnakers are not allowed (keep the boats simple, safe and practical, most recreational sailors never use them, neither do we need to). But if you want to use your tent as a sail, it would have to be included in the cost to build.

The organization that wants to take this on is the Center for Wooden Boats on the south end of Lake Union, Seattle. They hold a number of different kind of events throughout the season, including a crazy build/race event on 4th of July weekend. So the first one will be held there, but my hope once we have rules worked out that other organizations around the country will adopt similar rules or contests (we will make them available for free), we even have building workshops for those that want assistance with the build. And eventually we can have a national regatta. That would be my goal for the project, have chapters all over the country (and beyond!).

[Petros]

So I'm guessing the top left hand corner of the "contiguous 48".

THat is it, we here prefer to call it in fact "the Left Coast"

[Woxbox]

Bump.

This thread got me thinking. The more I consider a simple 16' x 8' boat for $500, the more I like it. That's about $150 more than I spent on my 17' SOF kayak, on which I didn't cut corners.

Stazzer's comment rings true:

I strongly suspect that the rules as currently configured will result in Proas, Tacking outriggers, Sailboards,and some oddball attempts at making a kite driven foiler work effectively.

I'd be putting together a proa. The 8' of leverage would be plenty to keep it on its feet, and I'd do the hulls dirt cheap so I'd have cash to splurge on some sort of wingsail.

Rule questions: What about sailboards and kiteboards and foils? Will requiring some sort of weight is carried for might level the field. Maybe it's a series of races -- one for all-out speed, one on a traditional course, and a third transporting a few bags of sand?

[Petros]

Sailboards and foils would be allowed, I do not think kit boards would meet the rules, sails must stay within the box rule. It would be tough to be competitive on a sailboard carrying the cargo box (one of the reason for this rule is to keep the boat practical, not a specialized screamer).

Also the design of the race should also preclude very strange pure racing boats. I was thinking 3 or 4 races per season, with each race a combo of triangle, and out and back (up wind and down wind), rectangle going long way around the markers (some events with the cargo box, some without), and with one "raid" type event per season. That is where everyone heads for a distant destination, starting from a beach launch, and you have to carry everything the crew needs for the day on the boat.

This will result in the best all around performance boat winning overall. It is possible the season winner could have never placed first in any event, but placed high enough where they were the points total winner.

A skin-on-frame construction would be an excellent way to make a light and competitive hull with minimal materials cost. It is also my favorite way to build, 12 canoe/kayaks, and two small sailboats built that way.

[upchurchmr]

When do you think we might see the rules? The comments seem to have tapered off. Sorry Wox, that wasn't to call you a taper.

[Petros]

Since you asked, below is my current proposed rules, along with my comments that I submitted to the committee. they will likely get tweaked some more before we finalize them. All of you are free to comment.

Here is my reasons for the changes (from everyone's input): The cost limit being too low seems to be a legitimate concern. IF too low it will inhibit innovation, performance and quality construction. But if the cost is too high it will exclude a lot of people from participating. I thought raising the cost limit gives more flexibility and encourage better quality boat builds.

The size limit should be reconsidered as well. 16' is the size of boat that does not have to be licensed in WA, and a few other states (some states do not require registration of any boat without a motor, some exempt all racing boats), but there are a number that require an inspection, a data plate and boat license no matter the size. Also, a 14' boat will
take a lot less material, and space in a shop/garage than a 16' boat. As we get more participation we can add both a larger, more expensive class, and perhaps a junior class [i.e. 16'x 8'-$1000, 10' x 5'-$300), and perhaps a separate multi-hull. I am going to suggest that we start out with a mono and multi-hull class if we get more than three entrants in each category.

All the other suggestions for limiting cost will limit design choices, creativity, and not always limit total cost, and some are not practical to enforce (it would encourage cheating). However I think a simple statement about construction methods might be useful: "tooling and construction methods should be kept simple and limited to those suited to a typical home workshop".

Limiting the build to group events I think will reduce participation, raise costs, and might also limit creativity for certain time consuming operations. Many would build at their leisure in the home shop, a few hours at a time, but could not afford to spend a week in a building workshop. However, building workshops would be a great optional event, if some people are a bit intimidated by the design and building process, they can do it an a workshop with lots of tools available, and expert instruction (perhaps with design assistance as well).
================================================== ===========
PROPOSED RULES

1. Max length 14', max beam 7', max mast length (step to peak) 16'
including all appendages (except external detachable rudder). Size is measured
with the sails centered on the hull, so booms or jibs, yards, etc. can
go outside the box rule when underway. No spinnaker, or trapeze allowed,
but foot straps and bars or benches for hiking out are okay (as long as all
appendages are within max size limits).

2. Races will be with two man crew or singled handed. To make sure
the boats stay practical, some races will require boats to accommodate
a minimum crew-plus-cargo weight of 500 lbs, and room for large cooler
sized box (the "cargo box") must be included in the design. [need to find out what is
the size of a standard large Colman cooler]

3. Wood or wood/pulp based materiel must be incorporated into the
structure of the hull (but the building method does not have to use
wood exclusively-other materials are allowed). Construction method is
wide open, but should be suitable for building in a home shop without
extensive tooling (plywood forms or strong back acceptable, making
parts in a numerically controlled mill is not).

4. All the materials, fasteners and adhesives purchased for use in
the construction of the complete boat, sails and rigging is limited to
$600 (not counting sales tax and shipping costs). All materials must
be purchased new in small quantities at retail prices from any mail
order or national hardware store chain (such as-but not limited to-
Home Depot, Lowes, or Ace hardware stores), this means no wholesale
suppliers or bulk purchase prices to make it fair for everyone. The
purchase unit of materials shall be used, such as if a hull uses 4.3
sheets of plywood, material cost is 5 sheets. Fabrics or lines and
rigging supplies sold by the running yard or by the foot, are counted
to the next unit of measure. Screws, fittings or fasteners are
counted by the way they are sold, by the box, pound, or each.

5. All entrants must submit copies of receipts and a list of
materials used when a boat is registered for the season. Entrants
must keep original purchase receipts (or record of purchases) and a
detailed record of the build (including photos) for examination if a protest filed.

6. The cost of paint, sealant or preservatives will not count toward
the materials cost, any type of one-part paint or sealant is allowed.
Bright colors and attractive paint schemes are encouraged. The cost of
the thread incidental to any sewing of fabric or webbing will also not
be counted towards material cost. The cost of maintenance or repairs
is not counted toward materials cost, nor the cost of replacing whole
assemblies of items replaced (if a sail or rudder is replaced with one
of a new design, but the cost of the materials is the same, than it
will not affect the materials costs), experimentation is encouraged.
However, if the replacement component materials costs more, than the
difference from what is removed and what is installed, will count
toward the class limit. Detailed records of cost of materials,
and quantities used should be kept. Major repairs that significantly
affect the cost of materials will require a judge to approve, with the
intent that no advantage would be gained.

7. At the end of each season winner must allow design plans to be
drawn from their boat, and published for next season and made
available to anyone for a reasonable fee (TBD). The proceeds from the
sale of the plans are to be split between race organization and the
boat designer.

Any construction method, design, sail plan or type, and materials can
be used within these limitations.

==============================================

Type of Racing Events;

There shall be three or four race day events for each season (series),
with varied events as outlined below.

Each racing day event shall consist of two or three (or more) races
arrange as either;

1) a triangle coarse around 3 markers (with option of circling the
"long way" around one, two or three of the markers).

2) a rectangular coarse with a "bow tie" option around 4 coarse markers,

3) a straight line coarse out and back around one marker.

Each marker must be at least 660 ft (1/8 mile) nominally apart or distance from
the starting line, longer distances preferred.

4) At least one of the races on each race day, it shall be required
to have crew and cargo equal 500 lbs, with cargo box carried on each
vessel.

5) The first contestant across the finish line shall be awarded 100
points, second place finisher will receive 60 points, third place
shall receive 40 points, fourth place shall receive 20 points, and
each contestant that finishes the race after 4th place shall receive
10 points. DNF receives zero points for that race.

6) There shall be at least one Raid type event each season. It shall
last 4 hours or more in duration, first leg out to a distant landmark
or location (preferably a restaurant or park with a BBQ), and than
back for the second leg. A beach "Le Mans" style start is required,
and all skids, wheels or launching equipment (if used) must be carried
on the boat for the duration of the event. All gear, refreshments used
during each stage of the race, clothing, supplies and equipment must
be carried on the boat or the crew for the whole event.

7) First contestant to return will receive 300 points, second 180 points,
third 120 points, fourth 60 points, and every finisher after, within
the time limit (if any), 30 points each. Highest point total for crew and
boat at the end of the season shall be the season winner.

Event organizers or event sponsors are free to add other awards or
prizes, such as best new design, or most innovative use of non-boat
hardware, winner of any individual race, people choice award, etc.
But these will not add points toward season total.

8) All racing rules not specifically stated will be generally according
to the current Racing Rules for Sailing by the International Sailing
Federation. Rules will be generally observed but not necessarily
strictly enforced.

9) Any changes or adjustments to any rules will be announced
by January 31 for that season's rules. Rule changes should be done by
committee.

10) All competitors mush wear PFD, and imersion gear for the long
distance events. The race officials reserve the right to disqualify
any boat if it appears unsafe (especially for the longer distance
events).

=============================

Options to consider;

To keep changes in material costs more fair from one year to the next
we might adjust the cost limit based on an index of a sample list of
supplies that equals the $ limit: like 5 sheets of 4x8-1/4" AC
plywood, one gallon of Tightbond 3, 2 pounds of stainless screws. 100
ft of 1/4" woven polyester cord, etc. And each year the race committee
announces by Jan 31st the years build index cost. This would also
allow different areas of the country to adjust for local materials costs.

Another idea is that cost records should be kept on the honor
system, and only the top 3 or 4 finishers must surrender the cost
receipts for scrutiny at the end of the season. keeps judges efforts
to a min. and will only focus on wining boats anyway.

We could also perhaps consider publishing the plans for the top 3
finishers as well, since each could have been the season winner if
conditions were different. Also gives us more of a variety of plans
to publish too.

[Woxbox]

If the length is down to 14 feet, then 500 pounds load is too high. How about 350?
Otherwise I like the plan.

[Kevin Olsen]

Two quick comments:

1. Aren't ferrocement boats both cheap and strong? Although that would require posting on another web forum

2. This sounds like a great reality TV opportunity. Perhaps you can interest a film company to follow two or three of the teams during the design and build process.

Kevin

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

If the length is down to 14 feet, then 500 pounds load is too high. How about 350?
Otherwise I like the plan.

+1.

And the proposed point scoring system is just asking for trouble - there is an existing perfectly feasible and well tested points scoring system in the ISAF rules - re-inventing the wheel is all very well but you need a really really good reason.

[Lewisboater]

1. Max length 14', max beam 7', max mast length (step to peak) 16'
including all appendages (except external detachable rudder). Size is measured
with the sails centered on the hull, so booms or jibs, yards, etc. can
go outside the box rule when underway. No spinnaker, or trapeze allowed,
but foot straps and bars or benches for hiking out are okay (as long as all
appendages are within max size limits).

the part in bold doesn't make sense...what does the length of the mast from step to peak have to do with a detachable rudder? I think the rudder part needs to follow the 14' length part in order to avoid confusion and requests for clarification.

[Petros]

Lewisboater,

You are correct, that should be edited for clairity. Good call.

Woxbox,

It does not seem to high to me, if you have two 200 lb crew, that only leaves 100 of cargo, as a practical day sailor that is not excessive. Not all the races will require the cargo rule, but this was also a way to keep the contest between boat design, and not how light the crew could be. If you have two 100 lb crew members they would have a big advantage in light air. This was also a way to keep extreme designs from dominating all of the races. I will take that under advisement and consider lowering it to perhaps 400 lbs.

[upchurchmr]

Actually max mast length is just another evidence of an attempt to shove the boats in a predetermined direction to meet someones idea of a "proper" boat.

Let the cost determine the limits.

Apparently a 14' long schooner is fine, but not a sloop with an 18' mast?. What about a Frank Smoot type "fan sail" where the mast is longer due to its rake angle, but now cannot be as tall as any vertical mast? Perhaps you should include a comment about bowsprits and boomkins. Hull length does not typically include such things. Can you put a detachable rudder on a truss type mounting to place the rudder further aft to gain more control? What about a 16' mast and a 20' boom like a distorted cat boat? Wait, I just tried to re read the rules. Do you mean that total length of the boat includes the sails (booms) when aligned along the centerline?
How about including the length of a gaff in the mast length to avoid trying to get around the mast height?
Can you use oars, paddles or pedal power?

Why even restrict length? Let the cost, again, control the freaks.

I'm thinking of a 14' x 7' PD racer with two masts, one at the bow and one as close to the stern as possible to get the max sail area. I suppose it should be two balanced lugs to get the front sail as far fwd as possible to balance the aft rig. Or a biplane rig where the leeward mast can rake forward and the windward one rake aft to get the two sails to not interfere with each other.

Have you thought about using pictures to help define your rules? perhaps that would keep someone like myself from trying to "cheat" or even honestly misunderstanding. You could show pictures of general classes of boats - monohull (catboat, sloop, schooner, windsurfer, kiteboat (works pretty good, no mast to violate the rules), multihull (catamaran, trimaran, quadramaran, proa, Bernard Smith style Aero-hydro style boat (three small pods connected by struts), SWATH with outriggers)

I think I'll copy Smoot's design and just go sailing without all this nit picking. Never fear, I'm too far away to actually participate, but it would have been fun to try and come up with a sensible boat.

the part in bold doesn't make sense...what does the length of the mast from step to peak have to do with a detachable rudder? I think the rudder part needs to follow the 14' length part in order to avoid confusion and requests for clarification.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

....

Woxbox,

It does not seem to high to me, if you have two 200 lb crew, that only leaves 100 of cargo, as a practical day sailor that is not excessive. Not all the races will require the cargo rule, but this was also a way to keep the contest between boat design, and not how light the crew could be. If you have two 100 lb crew members they would have a big advantage in light air. This was also a way to keep extreme designs from dominating all of the races. I will take that under advisement and consider lowering it to perhaps 400 lbs.

Fine - IF you are assuming that all will be two handers.

A Singlehander with a fit boater of 160 lbs (typical competitive laser sailor size) is lugging nigh on 350 lbs of useless ballast - don't look like fun to me.

[Woxbox]

Fine - IF you are assuming that all will be two handers.

A Singlehander with a fit boater of 160 lbs (typical competitive laser sailor size) is lugging nigh on 350 lbs of useless ballast - don't look like fun to me.

That was my line of thought, too. In the real world, two 200-pound guys who want to sail together don't select a 14' boat for the job. It just doesn't happen. So why create a rule for such a situation?

But if this boat needs to be raid-ready, then one 200-pound crew and 150 pounds of gear and supplies is generous. Or a couple with a combined weight of, say, 250 pounds and 100 pounds of gear.

Those who want to crew two-up at 400 pounds of people plus gear will want to go up to the next class.

Meanwhile, my proa is taking shape in my head. 14' by 14", the thinnest ply they sell, PL premium, wingsail made of various molding trim, covered with clear plastic drop cloths taped in place. The aka? Maybe a short aluminum ladder?

[Petros]

I would like to see both single handed races and two crew, some with the cargo rule, and some without. I think it would be an interesting experiment to have a race to see who wins with a 500 lb payload, and than see which one is fastest single handed without any cargo. It might be possible to have a points winner that does not win either race.

The box rule is to keep the boats small enough to transport and store at home easy. No limits but price is an interesting idea, quite the opposite of what many complained about early on. Removing any of the dimension limits would I think result is some boats that require special skills to handle if the sails became very large, which is not the goal of this contest.

When you are paddling or rowing a boat in a race, you no longer have a sailboat.

[upchurchmr]

Did you happen to follow the Florida Ultimate Challenge? Won by a trimaran, paddled during light winds. I don't know anyone who wouldn't call that a sail boat. Watch out for the bias that creeps in un-noticed. It must be a very practical one to win after being late to the start by about 1.5 days. For all practical purposes it was also finished on the beach before the start. Not at all a sub $1000 boat, I admit.

When you are paddling or rowing a boat in a race, you no longer have a sailboat.

[Petros]

Many races I have been in have a provision that at any point in the race the judges may okay the use of paddles if the wind is insufficient. Because I always carry a kayak paddle as back up, I won one race because of it (way better than a short single paddle). This is a reasonable rule, because no wind is not an unusual real problem, and not often are small sailing dinghys equipped with motors. And it certainly would be a reasonable "open" rule on a raid type event.

[Petros]

here are the final rules: feel free to share them with your local clubs or boat building organizations to get your own local chapter started. Eventually I would hope to have national events with entrants from all over the country.

I have also posted them over on the Boat Design Net thread of the same topic, you can down load a PDF file of these rules from that site (this forum will not accept a file attachment this size for some reason), you can get it here: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sai...tml#post611988

Thank you all for your extensive time, efforts and ideas and input on this thread, I think it made them better.


Note: Please, there will be no more changes on these rules for this year, any proposed changes will be only considered for 2014. thank you.


Challenge 600 class Rules
I. Challenge 600 class (aka “hardware store class”) basic definition: a developmental class of practical, good performing sails boats designed to be built with low cost materials in a typical home workshop. The boats can be designed for one or two crew, to perform in a variety of practical sailing events. The class is to encourage creative and innovative ideas for low cost practical sailboats.
II. All equipment and racing rules not specifically stated will be generally according to the current Racing Rules for Sailing by the International Sailing Federation. The Definitions and figures from the rules shall be used to interpret these rules as applicable. Rules will be generally observed but not necessarily strictly enforced. http://www.sailing.org/tools/documen...%5B8222%5D.pdf


III Box rule:
A. Monohull. (hollows or concavity in hull not to exceed 1”, below gunwale, aft of mid point)

1. Max hull length 14' from bow to transom, max rigged overall length 16’
2. Max beam 5' (including all appendages, hiking benches, etc)
3. Max height measured from lowest point of any sail, to highest point any part of sails or rigging: 20'. Note: there is no overall height limit, but mast or other rigging is not to extent more than 20 ft above the lowest point of any portion of the sail.
B. Multihull.
1. Max length 18' (including all appendages).
2. Max height from low point of hull to highest point of rigging or sails: 24’
3. No beam limit but hull must be able to be reconfigured/dismantled to 8' towing width.


C. Rigging/Configuration
1. Number, material or configuration of sails or rigging is unrestricted (except as below)
2. Sails and rigging must stay at or below height limit and within the max length/width rule when centered or aligned in the fore and aft direction for measurement. Sails, and rigging (booms or jibs, yards, etc.) can go outside the box rule when underway (not centered).
3. The righting moment of the crew weight shall only be transferred to the sail through the hull, shroud, or sheet or similar, in which case it shall be through blocks attached to the hull (i.e. no windsurfer/sailboard configurations)
4. No spinnaker, or trapeze allowed, but foot straps and/or bars or bench for hiking out are okay (as long as all appendages are within max size limits). Trapeze allowed for multi-hulls only.

IV Materials/Equipment
A. Wood or wood/pulp based materiel must be incorporated into the structure of the hull (but the building method does not have to use wood exclusively-other materials are allowed).
B. Construction method is wide open, but should be suitable for building in a home shop without extensive tooling or costly machine tools (plywood forms or strong back acceptable, making parts in a numerically controlled mill is not).
C. Approx half of races will require boats to accommodate a minimum crew-plus-cargo weight of 500 lbs, and have room for a typical 36 quart size cooler to be fixed in place yet accessible on the hull during the race. A box of approximately 24" x 14" x 20" tall may be built into the hull as an option. Any ballast necessary to reach the 500 lb crew-plus-cargo weight is to be carried in the cargo box. Races can be done single or double handed.



D. Cost Basis
1. All the materials, fasteners and adhesives purchased for use in the construction of the complete boat, sails and rigging is limited to $600 monohull class, $1000 multihull class (not counting sales tax and shipping costs).
2. The cost basis will be for normal retail cost available to anyone, purchased new in quantities enough for one boat, at retail prices from any mail order or national supplier, or actual sales receipts from such suppliers in quantities for one boat. Wholesale suppliers or bulk purchase materials may be used but the bulk price is not counted as the cost basis, but the normal small quantity retail price will be cost basis.
3. The nominal purchase unit of materials shall be used: the cost of full sheets of plywood, fabrics or lines and rigging sold by the running yard or by the foot, counted in whole yard or foot increments. Screws, fittings or fasteners are counted by the box, pound, or each.
4. The cost of paint, sealant or preservatives will not count toward the materials cost, any type of one-part paint or sealant is allowed. (Bright colors and attractive paint schemes are encouraged) The cost of the thread incidental to any sewing will also not be counted towards material cost.
5. The entrant must supply documentation of value of materials. All entrants must submit copies of receipts or print out from a national retailer for the cost basis and a list of materials used when a boat is registered for the season.
6. The cost of maintenance or repairs is not counted toward materials cost, nor the cost of replacing whole assemblies of items replaced (if a sail or rudder is replaced with one of a new design, but the cost of the materials is the same, than it will not affect the materials costs), experimentation is encouraged.
7. If the replacement component costs more than that being replaced, than the
difference will count toward the class limit (in IV.D.1.).
8. Major repairs that significantly affect the cost of materials will require a judge to approve, with the intent that no advantage would be gained.


V. Design/Plans

A. At the end of each season, first, second and third placed overall winner must supply suitable plans, or allow design plans to be drawn from their boat, and published for next season and made available to anyone for a reasonable fee (Propose $60).


B. Sales of the plans must be done through the race organization. The proceeds from the sale of the plans are to be split between the race organization and the boat designer. Or one third race organization, two thirds designer if suitable publish-ready plans are supplied by the designer.

[Petros]

the rest of the rules:



VI. Racing Events
A. There shall be three or four race day events for each season (series), with at least one of them an all day “raid” type event.


C. There must be at least three entrants for each class to score season points, but if less than three an entrant may run with other classes without scoring.


D. Each short race day event shall consist of two or three (or more) races arrange, but not limited to, the following:
1. Triangle coarse around 3 markers (with option of circling the "long way" around one, two or three of the markers).
2. A rectangular coarse with a "bow tie" option around 4 coarse markers.
3. A straight line coarse out and back around one marker. Each marker must be at least 660 ft (1/8 mile) nominally apart or distance from the starting line, longer preferred.
4. At least one of the races on each race day shall be required to have crew and cargo equal 500 lbs, with cargo box carried on each vessel, for about half of all races. Crews may be either single hand or two crew.

E. Scoring for the short race day events toward season total shall be as follows:
1. The first place shall be awarded 100 points. Second place will receive 60 points. Third place shall receive 40 points. Fourth place shall receive 20 points. Each place after 4^th that finishes shall receive10 points.
2. DNF receives zero points for that race


F. There shall be at least one Raid type event each season.
1. It shall last 4 hours or more in duration, first leg out to a distant landmark or location (preferably a restaurant or park with a BBQ), and than back for the second leg.
2. A beach "Le Mans" style start is required from "high water mark", and all skids, dolly, wheels or launching equipment (if used) must be carried on the boat for the duration of the event.
3. All gear, refreshments, equipment, clothing, tools, supplies, etc. used during each stage of the race must be carried on the boat or the crew during each leg of the event.


G. Scoring for the Raid race day events toward season total shall be as follows:
1. First contestant to return will receive 300 points. Second, 180 points. Third 120 points. Fourth 60 points. Every finisher after fourth place, within the time limit (if any), 30 points each. DNF receives zero points.

H. Highest point total for crew and boat at the end of the season shall
be the season winner


I. Paddles, oars or other muscle powered propulsion may be used on "raid"
events, and whenever the judges deem there is inadequate wind during any
of the short race day events


J. All competitors must wear PFD, and immersion gear for the long distance events. The race officials may disqualify any boat if it appears unsafe (especially for the longer distance events).

K. If both crews agree, a demonstration "crew swap challenge" can be made between two or more crew and boats. No points except bragging rights earned


L. Event organizers or event sponsors are free to add other awards or prizes, such as best new design, or most innovative use of non-boat hardware, winner of any individual race, people choice award, etc. But these will not add points toward season total


VII. Rule Changes. Will be announced by January 31 for that season’s rules. Rule changes should be done by committee, to meet the purposes of the class objectives.

[john welsford]

****

I understand these material more than most, including those on this forum. I am a licenced professional engineer with 30 years experinace designing structures for aircraft, automotive, buildings, bridges, towers, marine engineering, and consumer products in metal alloys, composites, wood, concrete, steel, fabrics and plastics. I have designed to ultimate loads, cyclic loading, thermal loading, vibrations, live loads, dead loads, seismic loads, winds loads, dynamic loads, hydraulic loads amoung others.

Be it aircraft rated lumber, marine rated lumber, or contruction grade lumber, all have allowable design stress and detailed engineering properties for specific applications. Whether a boat hull or aircraft stucture, or building, or bridge, whether designing in steel, aluminum, or wood, you always design to the properties of the material you are using. To fail to understand this means you fail to understand the design process. Consider that the first German jet aircraft had laminated main wing spars and plywood skins, and they worked.

Yes you have have to carefully select and remill from stacks of low cost lumber to get what you want for specific applications, or make up your own laminates in controlled conditions. But it is possible, I have done it. With that I have designed and built over 14 small boats.

Please do not lecture me on materials.

>>>>>>>>>>I'm sorry to have missed this thread as its a subject very close to my heart. But not to worry, it appears to still have some life in it.
A few things, Last time I was in WA, I bought a sail from a sailmaker in Rhode Island ( I think) . Its a Force 5 sail, cost about $165 including freight, its a practice sail a tad bigger than a Laser sail but similar, and it appears to be of very acceptable quality. http://www.intensitysails.com/gearforforce5.html
Most people would be hard pressed to make a good polytarp sail for that!
Carl Cramer and I have been chatting about a kitsettable budget racer suited to guys who want a reasonably fun boat that is suited to us older grey haired types who no longer have the fitness to cope with a full day in a Laser type boat, and who dont want to get wet too often, who still want a boat that will plane, and have commitments that obviate large expenditure.
So we are you and I looking in a similar direction.
I figure that a plans built boat to the rough I have drawn out, using stock aly tube spars, that cheap "practice" sail, www.duckworksmagazine.com or EBay second hand fittings, and medium grade exterior rated plywood, could be built to a good standard for about US $1800, $2200 for one built from a pre cut kit.
If you look at the price of a new Laser or similar, thats the bargain of the year, and it would be a boat that will cater to a much wider demographic than the sailing ironing boards.

I'll watch to see how this thread progressess, I'd love to see a similar one on coastal cruisers as well.

A note on epoxy sealers. I've been building plywood boats since the 1960s, some have had their interiors epoxy coated as per the book with three coats of epoxy lovingly applied, some have been painted with two coats of primer, two of undercoat, and two of topcoat. While there is not a lot in it I have the impression that the painted ones are doing better.

A note too on the "Duck" racers, the class originator had a row and I am formally divorced from the class, but did sail in the 2012 "Worlds". These boats are a lot better sailors than you'd think, and on short courses can be great fun. A properly thought out and built one can be a formidable little boat, and some have badly shown up competent kids in Optimists.


John Welsford

But do please contribute helpful ideas.

Should I scrap the allowd use of epoxy as a sealant?

What do you think is a reasonable cost limit for a "low cost" boat?

[upchurchmr]

Petros and collaborators,

Congratulations!

looks to me like a reasonable set of rules, allowing enough freedom for innovation.
Thanks for "allowing" multihulls.

I hope you find enough builders to make this viable.

Marc

[Carl Cramer]

I once fancied myself as a yacht designer....

I was designing to the IOR in the mid- to late- '70s. I compounded the mistake by building one.

In order to conform to the IOR, I had to buy a used mini-computer, which was only slightly smaller than my car. I spent far more time trying to learn how to program that than I did actually the designing the boat.

My new rule about boats to racing rules, one-design and development class HtBs excepted:

* if you can't fit all your rules onto one page of 8-1/2" x 11" paper, in 12-point type, I'm not going to do it.

Complexity is fun; simplicity is funner [sic].

Just saying..... And that's just me.

Thanks, Carl

[David G]

Petros,

Innovation is great, and I applaud your efforts. It's not the easiest thing in the world, though, to create a successful new class. I would urge you to have a fallback plan in mind for inexpensive class racing.
Whether that's the Puddle Duck Racer (I own one and can testify that - despite my initial reluctance due to the looks - they are a flat out HOOT), or whether it's one of the older, established classes (El Toro, Laser, whatever). Just as a fallback, and to not lose the organization and enthusiasm you are growing.

[Woxbox]

How about some more information on the cargo box? If I were to show up with a boat and skipper that required 350 pounds of ballast for the cargo race, how would the extra weight be added to the boat? Is it my responsibility, and can I add said cargo any way I want, or is the box of a designated size and shape? Can I add water ballast to satisfy the rule? Lead? Sand? Can I spread it out in more than one compartment, can I add lead to the keel? The rule doesn't specify.

[john welsford]

I once fancied myself as a yacht designer....

I was designing to the IOR in the mid- to late- '70s. I compounded the mistake by building one.

In order to conform to the IOR, I had to buy a used mini-computer, which was only slightly smaller than my car. I spent far more time trying to learn how to program that than I did actually the designing the boat.

My new rule about boats to racing rules, one-design and development class HtBs excepted:

* if you can't fit all your rules onto one page of 8-1/2" x 11" paper, in 12-point type, I'm not going to do it.


Complexity is fun; simplicity is funner [sic].

Just saying..... And that's just me.

Thanks, Carl

>>>> DOUBLE SPACED! John Welsford

[upchurchmr]

Since this is suppose to be simple, lets just round the page count from 1.8 down to 1, then Carl can participate.

Woxbox could be an inspector then he can answer his own question, in the spirit of the rules.

[dngoodchild]

I recently posted two vidos on YoouTube on making your own sails using painter's drop cloths and contact cement. Might be of interest here. I like the idea of the "Hzrdware Class", or perhaps in England it would be the "Ironmonger's Class".

[dngoodchild]

recently posted two vidos on YoouTube on making your own sails using painter's drop cloths and contact cement. Might be of interest here. I like the idea of the "Hzrdware Class", or perhaps in England it would be the "Ironmonger's Class".

All the best,

David N.

[Woxbox]

OK, I studied the rules a bit more carefully and did a calculation. If I strap the 36-qt. cooler on the deck or fit a similar sized box into the hull, it will actually take enough wet sand to bring the boat up to specs for the cargo race.

So in general, if I knock out one of these, scaled down to 18', spend a max of $1,000 and give it the form of a shunting proa, I'm good to join in the fun? Anyone else on the East Coast thinking about it?

[upchurchmr]

Woxbox,

I'll bet a case of beer it will fall apart - what kind would you like?
But that's exactly the spirit I like about this contest.

Goferit.

[Woxbox]

My goals are modest. The real SailRocket hit 65 knots. Just 20% of that would be plenty for me. If the thing exploded under the strain of an extra 350 pounds of ballast, we'll, all for the good of the cause.

Here in Pennsylvania, we prefer the Yeungling. Make it Black&Tan.

And as you can see, the first cartoon is done. This before the rule expanded the multis to 18' and I drank the SailRocket Cool-Ade. The mast needs to cant toward an opposing foil.

[Landrith]

A great idea. I often wish there was a design you could build from local big box store.