New low-cost "hardware store" racing class; input on proposed rules New low-cost "har

[Petros]

This is duplicate post from the boatdesign.net, but I thought if any on this forum not on the other might have some useful ideas to contribute.

A small group of us in the Puget Sound area are exploring the idea of creating a new class of low cost sailboats. We are in the process of developing rules, format, etc. to promote and encourage entrants for a competition for next season (Spring/summer 2013). The format of the races would be similar as lazier or PD type events.

The object is to create a class of good performing day sailors that allows maximum creativity on the part of designers and builders, and stay within a limited budget to promote entry level sailing and encourage more people to get involved.

A condition of entering the race is the winner of each season must make their designs available as plans for a reasonable fee so anyone can build the wining design for next season. This will encourage new designs and eventually build up a catalog of low cost good performing sailboat plans.

We are going to start out locally, and than perhaps encourage other regions to start their own chapters so we eventually can have regional and perhaps national championships.

================================================== ===================
We want to keep the rules simple, and promote maximum creativity. The proposed rules (so far) are as follows:

Primary structural material for the hull must be wood or wood/pulp based. All the materials, fasteners and adhesives purchased for use in the construction of the complete boat, sails and rigging is limited to $500 (not counting sales tax and shipping costs). All materials must be purchased new in small quantities at retail prices from any mail order or national hardware store chain (such as Home Depot, Lowes, or Ace hardware stores), this means no wholesale suppliers or bulk purchase prices to make it fair for everyone.

All entrants must submit copies of receipts and a list of materials used when requested by rules committee. Construction method is wide open, but should be suitable for building in a home shop without extensive tooling.

The cost of paint, sealant or preservatives will not count toward the materials cost, any type of paint is allowed. Bright colors and attractive paint schemes are encouraged. The cost of the thread uses in any stitching of fabric will also not be counted towards material cost.

Max length 15', max beam 8', max mast length (step to peak) 20' including all appendages (except external detachable rudder). No spinnaker, or trapeze allowed, but foot straps for hiking out are okay. (the size limit is to keep it inexpensive to transport on car top or trailer, storage requirement low, keep the deign safe and practical and still suitable as a day sailor).

Races will be with two man crew or singled handed. To make sure the boats stay practical, an optional rule is all boats must have accommodations for large cooler sized box weighing 100 kg, some races will require the "cargo box" with cargo be in place.

At the end of each season winner must allow design plans to be drawn from their boat, and published for next season and made available to anyone for a reasonable fee (TBD). The proceeds from the sale of the plans are to be split between race organization and the boat designer.

Any construction method, design, sail plan or type, and materials can be used within these limitations.

====================================

This would create a supply plans of good performing low cost practical boat designs that anyone can build. And allow people to use their creativity and construction skills to build low cost high performance sail boats. Building and racing workshops can be held by the local chapters or wooden boat centers or schools. These rules allow builders and racing crews can team up to build good performing boats, or even for entrants to hire professional designers and builders to get a competitive design, that will
eventually become available to everyone.

Also, I want to limit the purchase of materials to national suppliers so the cost limit rule can be fairly applied nationally when the time comes. So if all purchases are done from a national hardware store chain, or a mail order supplier, everyone around the country can compete fairly. It also might be possible to get one of the national hardware chains like Home Depot or Lowes to sponsor the races. Than the martial purchases would be limited to the one sponsoring store chain. This would bring a lot of customers to their stores to buy materials,
tools and other building supplies.

Comments, ideas or suggestions?

[sailboy3]

Sounds great, but I'd be damned if I have to buy the materials at Lowes or HD, instead of my local hardware store. PDRs sort of cover a lot of territory, but being a laser sailor, the idea of racing a box is, ummm, unappetizing, and it might make sense just to come up with a single, moderately high performance yet cheap design (lightweight planing hull, large sail area) instead of a mash of questionable ones.

I've heard tyvek makes pretty good sailcloth.

[dngoodchild]

I recently posted two vidos on YoouTube on making your own sails using painter's drop cloths and contact cement. Might be of interest here. I like the idea of the "Hzrdware Class", or perhaps in England it would be the "Ironmonger's Class".

[dngoodchild]

recently posted two vidos on YoouTube on making your own sails using painter's drop cloths and contact cement. Might be of interest here. I like the idea of the "Hzrdware Class", or perhaps in England it would be the "Ironmonger's Class".

All the best,

David N.

[Petros]

You can use any public retail source of materials available to anyone. I like the idea of the low cost PDs, but I want more flexibility in design and creativity, and a bit larger to make them practical day sailors as well. And I do not want it to become a one design class, but rather be an unlimited developmental class of a low cost practical boat. Eventually when we have enough entrants we could separate it into multi-hull and mono-hull, solo and two crew, even junior class with lower cost threshold, etc.

[Dan St Gean]

How 'bout a lazer style hull with hard chines. Rip a production rig off an existing class with many thousands of hulls built to ensure availability. Make it something like a laser, butterfly, or a ? and you have access to thousands of rigs and rudders for cheap. Why reinvent the wheel? Most of those classes got snobby and turned SMOD and high tech like the ubiquitous pram that shall not be named where a kid's trainer now costs thousands. Silly. Ant yet it started in the same vein as this proposal. I'd say make a class weight minimum to keep it easily buildable. Keep the tolerances reasonable so anyone can build the thing. Strongly discourage the one upmanship in blocks and line, but don't make sailors use crappy stuff that doesn't work. I was looking for sails and noticed you can buy a lateen for a huge class that is not class legal for 100 bucks. At that point, making your own seems hard to justify unless you really want to do it yourself.

Dan

[Chip-skiff]

The $500 limit is unrealistic. The purpose is to ensure that boats built on a budget will be competitive, but enforcing the limit by adding up receipts strikes me as cumbersome and a possible source of endless dispute.

It might be better to do a spec sheet for materials and allow builders to find their own sources. Another tack would be for the governing association to buy materials and sell standard packages of the basic stuff, with the plans.

[Petros]

Part of the challenge is for the designer or builder to use their imagination on how to build a fast boat with inexpensive materials. I have either observed or actually participated similar local contests were the amount of money spent on materials was in the $60 to $100 range for similar size boats. Some pretty decent boats were built too, but most were intended to be one time use. These rules would allow much more flexibility and a much more generous budget.

Using an existing design would limit creativity and experimentation. To start we will likely have a catalog of existing plans that are suitable for entering, for those with no motivation to do their own design work. But I would not want to limit it to one design (or group of designs), that is not the point.

Only I think a materials snob with a very limited imagination thinks that you need to use marine rated materials to build a decent boat. The point of this contest is to prove it can be done without costly materials. If you raise the cost limit to something as high as existing boats are built, you would end up with a lot of boats that are like all of the others that are out there now. Where is the challenge?

[James McMullen]

I'm not in. $500 limit encourages throwaway boats, not wholesome ones. I'm already way over my quota on crude boats built to low standards as it is.

You're damned straight I'm a materials snob! I paid my dues already from all those years where I didn't know/couldn't afford any better. I think it's great that you want to find an inexpensive way to play around with simplified boats, but don't kid yourself for a second that marine rated materials aren't much better than off the shelf Home Depot stuff. Make your compromises, but make them eyes open and free of delusion.

[Petros]

Where would you put the cost limit?

You can get the same durablity out of lower cost "lumber yard" materials, it either takes more careful selection and remilling on your table saw, or to use slightly heavier materials (3/8" plywood instead of 1/4", etc). Also consider that you can use epoxy resin and fiberglass cloth over the hull, only the cost of the fiberglass cloth would count towards the $500 limit since paint and sealants are not counted. This would make it very durable even if lower cost lumber was used.

[potomac]

As for not including epoxy in the calculation of expenses- well that's sort of a sidestep. Epoxy is very expensive and a major component of many, many designs.

[potomac]

Petros- you are going to run into a whole heap of disagreement with that statement. I'd guess there are hundreds, if not thousands of members of this forum, (myself included), who wish it were true. I dare say, there's not a builder on this forum who wouldn't love to be able to throw a boat together using Home Depot ply and have her last the same as using marine ply. It would mean we could build that more often. But saying that you can get the same durability from those materials is inaccurate and reflective of a poor understanding of the way those materials work.

[Petros]

But saying that you can get the same durability from those materials is inaccurate and reflective of a poor understanding of the way those materials work.

I understand these material more than most, including those on this forum. I am a licenced professional engineer with 30 years experinace designing structures for aircraft, automotive, buildings, bridges, towers, marine engineering, and consumer products in metal alloys, composites, wood, concrete, steel, fabrics and plastics. I have designed to ultimate loads, cyclic loading, thermal loading, vibrations, live loads, dead loads, seismic loads, winds loads, dynamic loads, hydraulic loads amoung others.

Be it aircraft rated lumber, marine rated lumber, or contruction grade lumber, all have allowable design stress and detailed engineering properties for specific applications. Whether a boat hull or aircraft stucture, or building, or bridge, whether designing in steel, aluminum, or wood, you always design to the properties of the material you are using. To fail to understand this means you fail to understand the design process. Consider that the first German jet aircraft had laminated main wing spars and plywood skins, and they worked.

Yes you have have to carefully select and remill from stacks of low cost lumber to get what you want for specific applications, or make up your own laminates in controlled conditions. But it is possible, I have done it. With that I have designed and built over 14 small boats.

Please do not lecture me on materials.

But do please contribute helpful ideas.

Should I scrap the allowd use of epoxy as a sealant?

What do you think is a reasonable cost limit for a "low cost" boat?

[potomac]

For the record: In a more "Instant Boat/ Temporary Boat," sense, $500 is interesting. I think it would be more interesting to make the number one where a real, lasting vessel is created. Four sheets of okume can be had for $400, plus epoxy, lumber, paint, fiberglass, and the rigging-which seems like the biggest unknown. What about $1,000? I think epoxy is a major component of a lot of these designs and if people were going to use it, it should be included in the cost. Maybe it would encourage some to try other/ less toxic, probably less effective adhesive options.

[john welsford]

****

I understand these material more than most, including those on this forum. I am a licenced professional engineer with 30 years experinace designing structures for aircraft, automotive, buildings, bridges, towers, marine engineering, and consumer products in metal alloys, composites, wood, concrete, steel, fabrics and plastics. I have designed to ultimate loads, cyclic loading, thermal loading, vibrations, live loads, dead loads, seismic loads, winds loads, dynamic loads, hydraulic loads amoung others.

Be it aircraft rated lumber, marine rated lumber, or contruction grade lumber, all have allowable design stress and detailed engineering properties for specific applications. Whether a boat hull or aircraft stucture, or building, or bridge, whether designing in steel, aluminum, or wood, you always design to the properties of the material you are using. To fail to understand this means you fail to understand the design process. Consider that the first German jet aircraft had laminated main wing spars and plywood skins, and they worked.

Yes you have have to carefully select and remill from stacks of low cost lumber to get what you want for specific applications, or make up your own laminates in controlled conditions. But it is possible, I have done it. With that I have designed and built over 14 small boats.

Please do not lecture me on materials.

>>>>>>>>>>I'm sorry to have missed this thread as its a subject very close to my heart. But not to worry, it appears to still have some life in it.
A few things, Last time I was in WA, I bought a sail from a sailmaker in Rhode Island ( I think) . Its a Force 5 sail, cost about $165 including freight, its a practice sail a tad bigger than a Laser sail but similar, and it appears to be of very acceptable quality. http://www.intensitysails.com/gearforforce5.html
Most people would be hard pressed to make a good polytarp sail for that!
Carl Cramer and I have been chatting about a kitsettable budget racer suited to guys who want a reasonably fun boat that is suited to us older grey haired types who no longer have the fitness to cope with a full day in a Laser type boat, and who dont want to get wet too often, who still want a boat that will plane, and have commitments that obviate large expenditure.
So we are you and I looking in a similar direction.
I figure that a plans built boat to the rough I have drawn out, using stock aly tube spars, that cheap "practice" sail, www.duckworksmagazine.com or EBay second hand fittings, and medium grade exterior rated plywood, could be built to a good standard for about US $1800, $2200 for one built from a pre cut kit.
If you look at the price of a new Laser or similar, thats the bargain of the year, and it would be a boat that will cater to a much wider demographic than the sailing ironing boards.

I'll watch to see how this thread progressess, I'd love to see a similar one on coastal cruisers as well.

A note on epoxy sealers. I've been building plywood boats since the 1960s, some have had their interiors epoxy coated as per the book with three coats of epoxy lovingly applied, some have been painted with two coats of primer, two of undercoat, and two of topcoat. While there is not a lot in it I have the impression that the painted ones are doing better.

A note too on the "Duck" racers, the class originator had a row and I am formally divorced from the class, but did sail in the 2012 "Worlds". These boats are a lot better sailors than you'd think, and on short courses can be great fun. A properly thought out and built one can be a formidable little boat, and some have badly shown up competent kids in Optimists.


John Welsford

But do please contribute helpful ideas.

Should I scrap the allowd use of epoxy as a sealant?

What do you think is a reasonable cost limit for a "low cost" boat?

[Breakaway]

Yeah... and using epoxy to extend the life and durability of cheaper material ends up costing as much as buying the good stuff in the first place. Has anyone bought resin lately its up TherE!
Kevin

[potomac]

Petros- congratulations on being such an expert. It's a wonder you had to come here in the first place. Being that you are so deeply educated, I'm sure you've sat through several lectures. I have too. I'm not sure where my comments above constitute a lecture. What I was trying to say, (and continue to say), is that one of the chief concerns of non-marine grade lumber is voids, the accumulation of water in those voids, which leads to rot. Let me be clear. I am not an expert. I don't purport to be one. Quite frankly, I'm not even a novice. What I am is a student. I am here more than anything else to learn. What I have learned from this forum, dozens of books, and the websites and building plans of some of the most respected small boat designers in the world is: use good materials. Of all those resources, you are the first "expert" I've heard say this, "You can get the same durablity out of lower cost "lumber yard" materials." If you are going to seal a piece of ply on two sides and four edges, turning it into the most expensive non-marine, non-furniture grade ply available, well I fail to see how that fits into your proposed idea. Let me further say, that people routinely come on here with bad information hoping to build a decent boat with poor materials and one of the key refrains I hear from those here who are experts, who care about those new builders' success and safety, and who want to foster a love and respect and joy of building in wood is, "don't." I rarely post here. You can see that from the number above. But I do read quite a bit, spending a fair portion of my precious free time on this forum. I am shocked that I'm the one to be writing these things. You want to hear a lecture, get James McMullen talking, he'll give you a dissertation. I am writing, however, because I feel it would be a disservice to those who mostly go about this forum quietly reading, making plans to build a boat, with the little money they've been able to put away, thinking they can save a little bit of money using poor materials, when what they might as well be doing, is burning that money.

[Petros]

I am looking for ideas on how a contest like this might improved. the object is to stretch the imagination for ways to build good performing boats for less money. Find new ways to use these materials. Of course many traditional wood boat builders would not feel any reason to particpate, they want to duplicate the way boats were built in the past. Fine, that is not the object here.

For example, I have built several skin-on-frame kayaks that use no adhesive at all, and used all lashed connections, and wood dowels for fasteners, with mostly salvaged lumber. I used the same methods as an experiment to build a 14' sloop, it was very light and a good sailing boat. both of these boats are coming up on 10 years old, no rot yet found, and are used every summer. Both were built for well under $100, and if all new materials were used it could have been done for about $200. I think it would be both fun and perhaps useful to create a contest where many minds will be put to the task of trying to achieve good performance with low cost materials.

I think you are stuck in a paradigm that I want get past. The idea to allow inventors, designers, and others to experiment with new ways to use materials to lower the cost of boat building. Some very useful ideas for future boat building, and even outside of boat building, might come out of such a contest. But mostly it is meant to be a creative way to have fun building low cost boats.

How can a contest like this be improved? If do can not think of anything useful to reach that goal, than please do not waste any time here, go back to trying to duplicate old wood boats (a worthy task, but not the reason for this contest).

[Full Tilt]

The finish line could be the dumpster.

[James McMullen]

Oh my heavens, potomac, I don't really lecture that much, do I? Surely my literary eructations are more in the nature of a gentle conversation with merely the occasional ranting tirade or maledictory jeremiad of denunciation thrown in just for color and aroma.

[upchurchmr]

I'm going to look up " maledictory jeremaid of Denunciation" - I think I know generally what was meant! Wow, what a sneaky way to prove..... something. Its not usual that my personal Mr. Know-it-All attitude gets pulled up on a short rein. I really enjoyed this post!
back at you.

Oh my heavens, potomac, I don't really lecture that much, do I? Surely my literary eructations are more in the nature of a gentle conversation with merely the occasional ranting tirade or maledictory jeremiad of denunciation thrown in just for color and aroma.

[upchurchmr]

Petros,

Are you proposing disposable boats for short term enjoyment or boats someone would keep more than a year?

More than a year = development of actually useful boats (to me) I suggest $1000, include epoxy in the cost, quit making limitations that exclude multihulls (8' beam excludes the Tri I would build), think real hard about recycled mast and sail from other classes (I don't know what to think personally).

Disposable boats - I don't care, we have a cardboard boat regatta around here and I don't want to participate

To me this should be the "more than a year" boats to encourage long lasting innovation not cartoon/ dumpster boats.

You might think about Frank Smoot's tri as an example of a goal - see diy-tris.com or "slickest folding boat" thread in boatdesign.net .

[potomac]

yeah, yeah, yeah

[potomac]

Interestingly, I am starting my own race here in St. Augustine with similar parameters, but wherein the use of water-soluble components is encouraged in an effort to promote the reduction of landfill waste. It's called "The Hunger Games Race." The last one afloat wins. We are also considering an off-shoot race where racers must tow a chum bag. There. I'm done. I haven't felt like this much of a jerk since being a NYC cop. Something got my hackles up. Sorry for the thread drift. You'll find a lot of support for SOF here. Dave Gentry's got some lovely, brilliant designs. James built a beautiful SOF approximation of the Ness Yawl, (in fact I hope he will write up a build thread some day so I can see how he handled it- hint, hint). Alright, now I'm sorry for the thread drift twice. Good luck with the thread and your race.

[Petros]

Potomac, that idea has actually be tried before. In one contest I entered where we have to build sailboats withing 24 hours, than race them around a lake (without any testing, it goes into the water for the first time at the race). Typically half of the entrants sink (much to the crowds entertainment). Someone built a boat hull out of wet news papers, than filled with dry ice to freeze it into shape. The hull was too narrow (the inventor obviously knew little of hull design), and though it amazingly floated, as they heeled it took on water and "whoosh" the dry ice almost exploded in a cloud of vapor, taking the boat down instantly.


news paper and dry ice boat floating


a few instances later after the water hit the dry ice. This was a real crowd pleaser!


This is the boat we entered, took 12 hours to build, uses skin on frame trimaran hull with Tyvek junk rig. We won the race with it, was second in points overall (total points points score based on time to build-12 hours, cost of materials-$55, weight tools used - 5.5 lbs, quality of build, design, and the position finished in race. The blue tarp sail monohull behind was came in second.

[potomac]

Not too shabby.

[potomac]

You have done WAY more of these events than I have (as in, I haven't done any). Obviously my input is going to have pretty limited value. From your descriptions and pictures, it sounds like you are going for something more of a "fun" nature than I had previously thought. When you wrote "class of day sailers," I thought you were looking to create boats that would be used in a series of races where boat longevity would be important. Obviously, this is less important in a single event. So here are some thoughts, for what they are worth:

1. Classes. Sailers, paddlers, one man, two man, some kind of alternate man-powered (like pedal to prop). Maybe a sliding scale for expenses. I think this would only work with lots of entrants.

2. A class/ category utilizing a point system. The more you spend, the faster you have to go. I know they do this in some regattas where different classes of boats are sharing the same course. Time penalties are assessed for every $50 spent, or whatever. This would help to focus more on the financial aspect of this event.

3. How about a category where a flat rate is charged to all entrants/ teams and they are given supplies in exchange? This encourages frozen paper boats a lot less, but focuses more on design. You get four sheets of ply, some epoxy, stringers, screws, polytarp, line, etc.. You could even couple the supplies with a class where an expert gave a few suggestions on construction and design elements. Maybe this would open up the event for those intimidated by the prospect of building something with little to no input. Additionally, buying materials in this kind of volume might allow you to get them at a discount, resulting in more bang for your buck.

[Mark Van]

You could set the price by allowing any competitor to buy the winning boat for $1,000. The prize for winning should be less than that. Either that, or have every boat that entered the race available for $1,000 after the race is over. That would simplify the paperwork, and keep the boats simple to build.

[Binnacle Bat]

Another possible way to limit expense, rather than a stack of material receipts, is the idea of a claiming race. After a race, if someone likes your boat, and offers a fixed sum (say $1,000.00), you have to accept the offer. This limits the amount of materials you want to put in, and also the amount of labor you may be willing to expend.

The more defined the hull shape, the better the racing will be (using PRDs as a model). A sharpie hull no more than 15 LOA and no more than 4' wide on the bottom might be a good starting point for use of standard materials.

The original claiming race concept comes from horse racing, but I think Phil Bolger suggested using it for sailboats.

Allan

[sailnstink]

Sails are going to be the issue. Didn't the OZ pd racer rules specify polytarp? This carbon wing sail- I just had it lying around, didn't cost anything~ let's race.

[Plumbtex]

Having a claimer rule occurred to me as well but I don't think it's a good way to go. We had claimer rules in the lower stock car racing classes. They served two purposes: 1) keep costs down. 2) Discourage "innovation". In practice I think it actually played in to the hands of the competitors with deeper pockets. In a points race a team operating on a shoestring could be dealt a huge setback by claiming their car out from under them. I think that the low materials cost (and I think $500 is plenty for an initial build) is neccessary to encourage experimentation and innovation. Let's face it, a lot of the innovation is not going to pan out so well on the water, and mistakes are a lot cheaper in hardware store fir than they are in BS1088 occume.
I think generous minimum weights for the bare hull and also for the loaded boat, including crew, would help keep the playing field level and remove much of the motive for using higher end materials and hardware. I think a couple of classes might be nice sailed simultaneously with an entry level using a spec sail or limited to taped polytarp or tyvek, and a more advanced class using the same hull rules with less rig restrictions and slightly bigger budget to allow for rig expenses. One of the problems I foresee with the reciept idea is making repairs and modifications as the season goes on and reconsiling it with the max allowed budget.

Some other things I might consider are: spec'ing three strand line, prohibiting external ballast and prohibiting blocks, at least in the entry level class and minimum flotation requirements

[BrianM]

The object is to create a class of good performing day sailors that allows maximum creativity on the part of designers and builders, and stay within a limited budget to promote entry level sailing and encourage more people to get involved.

So as an Engineer, you are very accustomed to having your assumptions questioned and of course, not taking it personally right? You are accustomed to proving the business case before big money is spent on Concepts/R&D/Protyping/Test/Tooling/Manufacturing, etc... right???!!!

Okay, disclaimer done.

I'd totally divorce the two seperate and complex concepts of "promoting entry level sailing", and boat building.

Far more people can learn to sail than have the skill to build ANYTHING, forget the skills needed to build a simple or compound curved structure made of wood.

Craigslist is glutted with old glass small sailboats, sometimes given away if "cost" is a barrier to entry your $500 budget is meant to minimize.

Besides, a rank beginner's "Original and Creative" design will most likely sail like crap, completely discouraging the aspiring sailor.

As a kid, I built a sailing "cement trough" that I was pretty proud of. I learned to sail though, on a a "real" boat, so I had some clue on the principles involved and clearly knew my "cement trough" was a joke going into it. It was however, a challenge since I was a beginner at woodworking. My sailing prowess however, far outstripped my woodworking skills interms of speed at which I developed.

Just another Engineer's opinion.

[upchurchmr]

No minimum weights - typical crushing of inovation. The need to sail and compete will set the minimum weight in the best way possible.

"spec'ing three strand line, prohibiting external ballast and prohibiting blocks, at least in the entry level class and minimum flotation requirements" You are falling down the slippery slope. Too many restrictions will kill innovation. Stick with the cost - base it on new materials/ hardware, even if it is not. If a guy is willing to hand make blocks so that the cost is just a piece of board, a few fasteners, and some rope - more power too him. If a guy can buy a premade block within the budget - more power to him.

You basically had a good idea. Don't sink the ship with more rules.

[Petros]

Thanks for all of the ideas.

There already are contests that limit you to certain supplied materials (several I have done were; 4 sheets of 1/4" ply, 100 screws, 100 tie-wraps, 2 tubes of caulk and any $20 worth of stuff you bring). Those usually are truly disposable boats, and not worth keeping. I was thinking these proposed rules would get beyond the "disposable boats" only good for one race (most of the boats in the contests I entered ended up in the dumpster). I was thinking this class would to last for one season, perhaps 3 or 4 races, and than can be rebuilt for the next season. In order to win the boat must be durable enough to finish and win (or place) in at least three of four races. Many should last much longer than that, up to five season of use if stored covered and regular maintenance done on them. But building a new one each year/season for $500 would not be prohibitive.

I am familiar with the claim rules often done with low end race cars. I do not care for it since all your hard work might be taken by a deep pocket competitor who only wanted to eliminate you. It also I think would hinder innovation, as would all the other rules of restricting materials types or construction methods.

Repairs are not really a problem, they are wide open since it would put the boat back into the starting condition, it does not add to the cost of building it. So repairs, maintenance, etc are unlimited, rebuilding after a major damage might require the judges to determine if the intent of the rule was violated (or you just build a new boat salvaging materials from the old one). Also, if you want to develop say a new mast and sail design, and you are entirely replacing the old one, than the cost of the materials for the new design, minus the cost of the materials removed must still be within the total for the boat limit. If the new sail rig costs the same in materials as the old one, there is an unlimited amount of new sails you can try. If someone was going to experiment with various rigs, you might leave some of the budget just for the sake of doing modifications during the season (iow, you build with $450 worth of materials, allowing you to add $50 worth of new stuff, over and above what you are replacing). Also, replacing a rudder that costs the same in materials, does not add to the cost of making the boat, you can try out as many rudders as you like.

The idea was people who like to build and experiment might team up with a sailing crew to design, build, develop and race a new design. Some would design, build and race themselves, but there is no restriction on who does it. Someone with deep pockets might even pay a top notch designer to develop a new design around low cost materials, have it professionally built, and than sail it themselves, or even hire a top notch crew. the ONLY restriction is on the cost of materials. and the design must be made available if it wins the series.

Trying to limit costs is always a problem, but required new retail materials costs levels the playing field somewhat, so "donated" materials or even components like sails, would not be allowed (unless they wanted the judges to decide the new retail cost shall be counted, usually disqualifying the boat).

There would not necessarily have to be showing receipts every time you enter, you have it "registered" with the race organizers, providing copies of the BOM and receipts just once. Mostly it would be on the honor system, if the committee questions a new entrant they can do a more detailed inventory before they register the boat. Once accepted it can be used in all of the races after that. And there would have to be some kind of protest process if someone thinks a competitor is cheating; For example, they post a $50 fee (or more), the committee does a detailed examination of what was actually used in the boat, and compares it to the list of receipts. If the protest was upheld, they get their $50 back and the boat is disqualified, if the protest was unfounded (particularly if it was unsportsman like), the protester forfeits the fee. So there is a cost to filing a protest. Something similar is done in professional car racing.

This only matters with the boats that win the most, few would care about the "also rans", so most would just build and have fun sailing their inventions. So cheating might happen, as it does with most contests, but there is a means to prevent the worst of it.

The rules do not exclude multi-hulls, just overall size. This set of rules is just a starting point, I would like to create more classes as more people participate. We could create a separate mono-hull and multi hull class with larger beam allows, a "junior" class of 8'x5' x 10' mast for $300, and perhaps a "super" class with a $1000 limit with larger size boats allowed (but all would be of a size to be reasonably trailer-able).

If we start off with too many classes I suspect we may not even get enough entrants to have one good race. So I want to start with a single set of rules for one class that would be as attractive to as many people as possible. locally we would actually invite people to build boats for the first "demonstration" contest, and get commitments from at least 5 teams to have a meaningful race. The races would also vary, might even have some Raid type events.

I also considered having a required minimum race weight, boat, equipment, crew, plus cargo (race committe adds sand bags to each entrant to make weight if necessary). This would even out the differences in crew and boat weights, discourage very light weight boats, and create a more practical boat for recreational sailing with a good carrying capacity.

[Tom Robb]

It strikes me that your two objectives are at odds. Design rules seem to either result in essentially a one-design that promotes close racing, or a development rule that gets wildly, evenly astronomically, expensive. Sail racers and designers have struggled with this for ages with unsatisfying results.
If you want cheap race an El Toro or PDR. Cheap and interesting design/engineering sound like an oxymoron to me.
Good luck with that.
Tom

[kenjamin]

I think I'll be spending about $3000 on my SCAMP and to me that's cheap and I'm just a poor retired illustrator/graphics guy. I did, however have an existing mast and sail from another project that I'll be using so that saved $1000 or so. The SCAMP is certainly interesting and has an amazing amount of seaworthiness for it's 11' 11" length. When I'm finished with mine I hope to race it in next year's Everglades Challenge. At $4000 it is definitely not a throwaway but it will probably last five to ten times longer than a throwaway. I'm intrigued with the SCAMP. The bottom half of it looks like a racing machine while the upper half is a minimalist's micro-cruiser with a cuddy cabin – a very cool little boat. Much of the hardware and sails for the boat could be fabricated by the homebuilder (I think maybe) and that can really help to keep the costs down. Some of the SCAMP builders have used Tyvek for temporary sails with some success but most spring for dacron from sail lofts or, like me, sew their own dacron sails from Sailrite kits.

[Petros]

I am familiar with the scamp, I have been on board one in Port Towsend, and I have talked with the builder. Beautiful little boat. But it seems to me that $4000 for just materials for a boat less than 12 ft long is pretty costly.

The whole intent of this contest is to create a format that encourages the development of a good performing sail boats that cost less to build. If you do not think it is possible, or this is somehow an unworthy objective than do not participate. There are lots of people that like the idea of having a boat or building a boat, but when they read about cost of materials, and they just do not have any enthusiasm for such a costly undertaking. I think if creative designers and builders put their mind to the task of breaking out of the paradigm that boats must be made from expensive materials, that it can be done and should be done. It is as much a creative challenge as much as a design contest. Many years ago lots of perfectly good boats were built with "found" lumber, no epoxy, no composites, no marine plywood, all done with hand tools (many of them hand made as well) and as few fasteners as practical (many boats were built without any metal fasteners, all pegs and lashing). We have so much more resources available to us now, we should be able to do much better at making a perfectly good sailboat for less money.

The only difference between lumber yard wood and marine wood is it gets more carefully inspected and separated from the less desirable cuts. There is no reason that larger planks of lumber could not be hand selected from the stack, remilled on a table saw, and used as boat lumber. Inspecting and rating lumber is a simple task and dose not require specialists, just simple instructions and a careful eye. I want to encourage creative solutions to find low cost ways to building good performing boats. It is easy to simply copy what other people are doing, it takes creativity and perhaps a certain amount of bravery to attempt to solve the design challenges of a boat by using simple solutions rather than buy what everyone else is using out of a marine supply catalog.

Do you have any suggestions on how this kind of contest could be improved? The objective is to create good performing sailboats that cost less to build.

[James McMullen]

I am familiar with the scamp, I have been on board one in Port Towsend, and I have talked with the builder. Beautiful little boat. But it seems to me that $4000 for just materials for a boat less than 12 ft long is pretty costly.

See, and there's where I think you're wrong. Wrongety-wrong-wrong-wrong-o. Started out wrong, and getting wronger by the minute. The Scamp kit is an excellent, terrifically well thought out and carefully engineered little boat that when built properly will be an excellent long-term investment and a source of joy for many years to come. This is a boat that will be capable of genuine small boat cruising and hard use over time. It's nothing at all like the ephemeral, throw-away boats you're talking about for your budget racing class.

$4k for a Scamp is a bargain for what you get. And don't lecture me about found lumber and pegs and lashings instead of bronze cause I've built no less than half a dozen boats in that fashion myself, not even counting the dozens of cheap-ass plywood boats I've also built. It ain't the same thing, and it ain't just as good, even though you might be sorta satisfied in the short term as long as you keep your expectations reasonably low.

[Tom Robb]

Petros,
I think your objective is worthy if difficult, but more power to ya.
If you succede maybe it'll be your ticket to Heaven like Bolger's Light Dory may be for him.
So, what sort of design have you come up with so far? Pix? Sketches?
Tom

[Petros]

The scamp is a different kind of boat for a different kind of sailing than what I have in mind. There is no valid comparison for the two types of boats.

As for example: About five years ago I entered a local $50 sailboat race, the idea was to build a boat with garage sale and salvaged junk. Most of the boats were crude rafts, many fell apart and sank. I built the boat pictured below, which we won, and have since sailed many times in local lakes and on Puget Sound (in fact the picture is off the beach at Port Towsend, WA). It was not much of a race, a short down wind segment. I have been meaning to go back and rebuild it with some more durable skin (it is built skin-on-frame like a sea kayak). I was thinking that if I had a larger budget, it could have been a lot nicer boat, but still inexpensive to build. Also, the idea of the Puddle Duck racer also comes to mind, inexpensive small boats that kids and adults build inexpensively. Great idea, but the rules limit the hull to the ugly box, and allows no creativity or innovation. So I wanted to go beyond that concept, and just limit cost and size.



So my idea was to get like minded people to apply their creativity to create good performing little sailboats using low cost materials. And to allow maximum design freedom. And than run a series of regular sailboat races so it can be used in multiple events. I thought we might find some suitable existing plans that could be sold for those that do not want to design their own boats, but to just build them.

This harkens to old Do-it-yourself magazines that always used to publish great plans of various types of boats that could be built from hardware store materials. I want to revive the idea for do-it-yourself construction for simple little boats. They could be raced, or just built for fun. I want to see what kind of other designs and construction methods others might develop.

If anyone does not like this idea, please do now waste any time posting your derogatory comments, they are not helpful.

If you have ideas to improve such a contest, by all means post them.

[upchurchmr]

I would be interested in the contest if you didn't arbitrarily penalize multihulls (trimaran) with the beam limitation.

If you really intend to do this you better grow a thicker skin. You can't (and shouldn't) try to please everyone. The certification that you were right will come if anyone joins you - derogatory comments or not.

I have made several suggestion which you apparently have dismissed. Should I be upset with you? Your ignoring me is not helpful, in my mind.

Just a question - will homebuilt windsurfers be welcomed?

I wonder how Kudzu's SOF trimaran concept would fare with your rules?

[Petros]

I would be interested in the contest if you didn't arbitrarily penalize multihulls (trimaran) with the beam limitation.

Nowhere do I "arbitrarily" penalize multihulls. I like multihulls, I have raced and built both mono multi hull sailboats. The size limit is to keep the vessels small and easy to trailer or roof top. If I had an unlimited beam it would results in nothing but multihulls dominating the class, and most users of boats prefer mono-hull, the objective is to build up a catalog of good sailing inexpensive sailboat designs. Originally I was going to limit it to monohulls only, but someone suggested just to remove that requirment and only limit size. AS more people participate I would like to eventually introduce a multihull category where perhaps an unlimited beam would be one of rule change (with perhaps a retirement that it can be dismantled or folded down to max 8' width?). I welcome your input on how to formulate multi-hull rules, as well, but to start I think I want to keep it simple with no limits. AS we get a mix of entrants, with enough to create separate catagories, separate classes for mono- and multi-hull, and perhaps different size and cost limits (like 10'-$300, 14'-$500, 16'-$1000 catagories). It will be fun and interesting to see what people come up with and enter.

If you really intend to do this you better grow a thicker skin. You can't (and shouldn't) try to please everyone. The certification that you were right will come if anyone joins you - derogatory comments or not.

I do not take the derogatory comments personally, I know I will not please everyone. I just do not understand why some people want to waste everyone's, as well as their own time, posting irrelevant negative comments that are not useful or helpful. I have seen the cardboard boat contests as well, but never felt compelled to enter one either, nor do I go tell them what I think of it.

I have made several suggestion which you apparently have dismissed. Should I be upset with you? Your ignoring me is not helpful, in my mind.

I went back and reviewed all of your input and saw no real suggestions, only a comment on cost and the issue about multihulls, which I addressed above. Is there something I missed? How would you incorporate multi-hulls and not create a huge advantage over mono-hulls in a single category? Please, make suggestions.

Just a question - will homebuilt windsurfers be welcomed?

Sure, why not? IF they fit the rules, they can play. It seems to me that they will not be very practical where there is a two person crew or carrying 100kg of cargo however. The rules were designed to keep the boats practical.

I wonder how Kudzu's SOF trimaran concept would fare with your rules?

If it fits the rules, they can play. I can imagine some races requiring a lot of turns and tacking, so multihulls may be at a disadvantage in those races. I hope we can design courses with a combination of events that will not favor any one design, but results in an overall good performing design and skilled crew. That would be up to the race committee, I have never designed a race coarse so I do not pretend to know any more than what I have learned by participating in races.

[upchurchmr]

Since this is suppose to be simple, lets just round the page count from 1.8 down to 1, then Carl can participate.

Woxbox could be an inspector then he can answer his own question, in the spirit of the rules.

[upchurchmr]

Petros and collaborators,

Congratulations!

looks to me like a reasonable set of rules, allowing enough freedom for innovation.
Thanks for "allowing" multihulls.

I hope you find enough builders to make this viable.

Marc

[James McMullen]

Fair enough, Petros. You have your fun your own way. I will cheer you on without participating.

[sailnstink]

PDracers aren't limited, they have been built class legal from sit on top board boats up to cabin cruisers. Ugly perhaps but not limited.

[upchurchmr]

You have a very strange idea of "not limited".

PDracers aren't limited, they have been built class legal from sit on top board boats up to cabin cruisers. Ugly perhaps but not limited.

[upchurchmr]

PD racers are limited to a shape approaching a child's sandbox and can't resemble a typical western sail boat or even a Polynesian craft.
Surely that is too limited for the purpose of this "competition".

[sailnstink]

PD racers are limited to a shape approaching a child's sandbox and can't resemble a typical western sail boat or even a Polynesian craft.
Surely that is too limited for the purpose of this "competition".

Right. Must have cheap innovative homebuilt boats that resemble fine classic wooden sailing vessels. What if ugly and unconventional is fast? Cracks me up that the fastest sailing records are held by kite surfers.

[Lewisboater]

PD's must conform to a prescribed shape below a certain point on the hull... above that anything goes I believe. They are limited in that respect. For instance...the OZ Racer is not "class legal" even if it does come within millimeters of being the same shape. There is a minimum of 6 or7 inches which must fall within prescribed limits designed to compensate for imperfect measuring and building...not tweaking. I believe Mr. Storer used those parameters to tweak it into an arguably better performing boat but Shorty didn't take too kindly to it and declared it not class legal. I simply pass on what I know which may or may not be 100% accurate in detail.