Banned
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
Originally Posted by Chip-skiff
Agreed. I was reading on another forum Texas Gun store owners are asking patrons to check their tires for chalk marks. Seems the gangs stake them out then follow the owners for a chance at stealing the purchases. Waiting for the left to try and pass a gun law making chalk illegal.
Senior Member
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
Just a small heads up here Jack, the US is one country, it is not the world and it's certainly not the place where new developments are occurring. I suggest you look at Asian production .
Perfect is the enemy of good.
Senior Member
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
Great vision for America there Mark ... never learn, never change .My Neighbor has and F-350 that produces 850 HP from a black smoking diesel. He loves it too.
Perfect is the enemy of good.
Re-Membered
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
Finally, somebody gets it.
Celebrating on the field of battle acknowledges your opponents superiority
Orna Mental
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
Beans?
"These damned cockaroaches are messing up my vibrissae!"
Frayed Knot Arts: Fancywork and Rope Jewelry
displayed for your amusement:
http://www.frayedknotarts.com.html
Senior Member
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
If it was good enough for The Founding Fathers to drive smoky diesel F350s, it's good enough for everyone else.
"I'm not gonna spend any time looking up stuff."
"If you want specifics you'll have to look them up."
"To answer your particular question would require much more time than I am willing to commit at the moment..."
I refer you to the reply given in the matter of Arkell v. Pressdram.
Bedazzled
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
Won't be a long-term isssue......with 850hp some of the smoke is probably coming from a lit fuse.
We don't know how lucky we are....
Re-Membered
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
You mean like the small internal combustion engines PRODUCING the electric for the VOLT?
http://www.chevrolet.com/tools/compa...6&snType=model
Lets see...... the msrp for the Volt is about 11k higher than your Prius
Gas @ approx4.15 a gal for prem here..11000 divided by 4.10 = 2682.93 gallon........
2682.93 x 40mpg = 107317 miles not including the daily 35 miles for "free"........
yep, I hope he does like it cause he is upside down for a looooong time.
Volt on back order???
Celebrating on the field of battle acknowledges your opponents superiority
Senior Member
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
Teenage pizza delivery boys are going to buy new Chevy Volts on five bucks an hour under the table plus tips? How does a Volt sound with one of those fart can mufflers on it?
Bedazzled
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
Like this?
We don't know how lucky we are....
Re-Membered
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
lmao
Celebrating on the field of battle acknowledges your opponents superiority
Senior Member
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
Well, yes... but remember: the Volt is a plug-in. For the first 35-50 miles, the Volt runs on electricity from utility scale power plants (the most efficient source), not from the small ICE. (I estimate that 90% of the time, I drive less than 40 miles per day, which means that 90% of the time, I would use no gas at all.)
Conventional cars only have the small ICE, so they're less efficient all of the time.... and it's even less efficient because it has to be sized for maximum demand (~250 Horsepower), but often runs at much less (often 25 or 50 HP), so even with a six-speed gear box, it's often running pretty far away from it's maximum efficiency. The Volt's configuration allows the ICE to run more consistently at its maximum efficiency. Acceleration is achieved by adjusting the electric motor, not the ICE.
http://www.chevrolet.com/tools/compa...6&snType=model
That link says you get 94 MPGe. It says 40MPG is what you get if you don't charge the battery... so that's the worst case scenario, not the "best."
Sure... but he could have got the A7 or the Panamera or the 535i. There are lots of ways to waste money on a car and some of them never break even.Lets see...... the msrp for the Volt is about 11k higher than your Prius
Gas @ approx4.15 a gal for prem here..11000 divided by 4.10 = 2682.93 gallon........
2682.93 x 40mpg = 107317 miles not including the daily 35 miles for "free"........
yep, I hope he does like it cause he is upside down for a looooong time.
I'm thinking about it to replace my wife's car. I like my Prius, but would like to buy an American made car. I'm also look at the new Tesla.Volt on back order???
Senior Member
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
Everything will change if recharge time becomes irrelevant, if you can pull into a servo and have a new battery pack fitted in a few minutes .... it will be the same as petrol / gas .
Miles per charge ? The current vehicles aren't running 1910 lead acid cells, things have definitely changed and battery technologies are amongst the fastest changing tech there is .
Perfect is the enemy of good.
Senior Member
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
It would be simpler and cheaper just to change cars. Leave your old car in the charging station, and drive off with one that is already charged.
Senior Member
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
Yes it is true that a gun rack has no place being on a volt or a leaf. These cars are for commuters working high skill level white collar jobs, not farmers/woodsmen/ranchers/etc.
A quarter or half ton pickup with an electric motor is however a wonderful working man's vehicle and would be the ideal place for a gun rack. You can get no machining no welding conversion kits for a manual transmission rack and pinion steering Chevrolet S series (also compatible with many other old light trucks) that is highway capable, extremely rugged (100,000 hour bearings and 30,000 hour brushes) and will make 70 miles on old fashion flooded lead acid batteries.
Senior Member
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
So you are saying you were mistaken?
Senior Member
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
FWIW, GM had an electric pickup truck on the market in 1997.
Re-Membered
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
Do you own one?anyone you know buy one?
Just another pathetic ploy by GM to fake technology
Celebrating on the field of battle acknowledges your opponents superiority
Bedazzled
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
Unlike the EV1, of the 492 S-10EVs assembled about 60 were sold to fleet customers, rather than just leased through restrictive programs, mostly due to the prior Department of Transportation crash-worthiness evaluations done on stock S-10 pickups. As a result, a few Electric S-10's can still be found in use today. The fleet life of many of these are ending in 2007 and 2008 and they can be acquired in government and business auctions. Those 440-some that were not sold were collected, dismembered and crushed just like their EV1 siblings.
Something pathetic was going on, not sure if it was the 'fake' technology though.......
Mind you, there's only 60 out there......quite a collectors item.
We don't know how lucky we are....
Senior Member
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
Meanwhile, with the advances in quick starting big diesels, hybrid technology is making interesting inroads in the tug fleet, where there are huge fuel savings to be had when something less than full power is needed.
That Richard Guy
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
I love reading all of this EV's are doom to fail stuff. How about a few other technologies that were doomed to fail...
I say... never say never.In 1977, Ken Olsen, founder of Digital Equipment Corp., stated, "There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home." Yet in 2009, it was reported that approximately 80% of households in the U.S. had at least one computer. Darryl Zanuck, a movie producer at 20th Century Fox, said in 1946 that television wouldn't last because "people will soon get tired of staring at a plywood box every night." Now the demand for TV is so high that there are literally thousands of channels available for viewers' daily consumption. As for the Internet, that was also doomed to fail, according to astronomer Clifford Stoll. In a 1995 Newsweek column, Stoll said that "no online database will replace your daily newspaper, no CD-ROM can take the place of a competent teacher and no computer network will change the way government works." But, of course, the Internet is unquestionably one of the greatest inventions in modern history. There have even been more recent doubts about the iPhone. In 2007, Steve Ballmer, CEO of Microsoft, said, "There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance." Well, we all know how that turned out. This just goes to show that what's not considered possible today may be the wave of the future. Time travel, anyone?
Nosce te ipsum
Senior Member
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
Attn. All Cynics:
Check out the Volkswagen XL1, a concept car that is slated for limited production in 2013 (www.caranddriver.com/news/volkswagen-xl1). It is a two seat diesel hybrid with an all carbon body, weight of 1752 lbs., a 0.186 drag coefficient, and a gasoline-equivelent rating of 261 mpg. There are other Google references, including a youtube video of road tests.
I just gotta get one!
Frank
Senior Member
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
A CD of .186 !!!
Perfect is the enemy of good.
That Richard Guy
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
Frank that URL is a dead end, is this the article you are linking too?
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...t-drive-review
Nosce te ipsum
Senior Member
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
That's a remarkable bit of engineering and if it was half as efficient would still be 10 times as good s most cars .
Perfect is the enemy of good.
Senior Member
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
GM built one of the first artificial hearts. It has demonstrated virtually any kind of device that would enhance personal mobility, including a turbine car that runs on powdered coal. Marketing technology is quite a different matter. The vast majority of people want cars with the worst fuel economy, which is substantiated by what they will pay for them. That is a problem for anyone in the auto business. FWIW, I do know someone who bought a Volt. His former car was a Ford F-250 pickup with a heavy-duty diesel. Explain that.
Senior Member
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
Old Dryfoot,
Sorry, I thought it would work. Your address was from a Feb. article; the one I thought I was reporting was a March one. The update was basically the same information with an addition that limited production was actually going to happen.
What I find interesting about the XL1 is that all the technology exists right now. In its conception, it is not that different from the Volt, but everything is optimized to the nth degree.
If you Google "Volkswagen XL1," there are several other entries.
Frank
Senior Member
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
True, but will never happen, as cars are far too personal for most folks. Plus, what if you have a lot of gear on a long trip?
I would think a standardized slid in (drop out the bottom?) battery pack would be pretty tolerable. Of course expecting standardization may be asking a lot, as it seems that most mfr's prefer to have their own version of things these days (headlight bulbs, oils, wipers, you name it).
Senior Member
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
Like the Volt, it's important for mfr's to build some cars that won't be big sellers. It proves the technology & provides a testing source in the real world - making the next version far closer to what people will want.
Interesting how similar the body shape of the VW is so similar to Honda's Insight, eh?
C&D (of course) complains about the performance, but as a commuter car it'd be just fine. Once on the interstate & up to speed it'd also be fine. Of course this is the opinion of a person who has driven 190, 220 & 240 Mercedes diesels.... The VW is 0 to 60MPH in under 12 seconds. The 220D was about 25....
That Richard Guy
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
I think the idea of a swapable battery pack is interesting but I don't ever see it happening. There are a host of new battery chemistries on the horizon however that do support extremely rapid charging. Titanium dioxide based chemistry can support rates that allow for a 50% charge after only 6 minutes, and with an energy density of 256 mah per gram. Imagine what could be done with a battery that can give you 1AH of current in a 4 gram package.
Nosce te ipsum
Senior Member
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
Maybe but I know for sure we have two corporations here doing feasibility studies on the idea. It makes a lot of sense to me .
Perfect is the enemy of good.
That Richard Guy
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
Even more interesting. I would have thought standardization across manufacturers to be next to impossible. Can you point me to some articles perchance?
Nosce te ipsum
Senior Member
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
Been done in the past - so why can't it be done in the future?
Just curious.
Senior Member
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
Actually standardisation across producers will be a basic requirement. Imagine if every different petrol vehicle needed a specific type of fuel from a manufacture specific outlet .Fuel standardisation is the primary strength of petrol vehicles, that and the huge distribution network.
http://www.caradvice.com.au/124096/2...-to-australia/
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/05/better-place/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place
http://bev.com.au/
I can only find links the Better Place but I think there's a competitor out there somewhere .
Perfect is the enemy of good.
That Richard Guy
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
All of the players seem to be going in different directions. Different current and voltage specifications, different battery chemistries, battery management systems and attached software. Even something as simple as placement of the battery within the vehicle.
Time for me to be curious. What have the auto makers standardized in the past? I'm trying to think of anything you can take off of a Ford and put on a Chevy but I'm drawing a blank.
Nosce te ipsum
Senior Member
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
Gotcha
Headlights & other bulbs, wipers, batteries (though that was way back), & tires are ones I can think of off the top of my head.
That Richard Guy
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
Of course... I never considered fuel. That would even be a legal requirement under Fair Use statutes. Thank you for the links, I have some reading to do.
Nosce te ipsum
That Richard Guy
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
More items I never considered. I was trying to envision swappable engine or suspension components, that sort of thing. Parts that the manufacturers would have produced in-house. Thank you.
Nosce te ipsum
Senior Member
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
Soitenly.
Differing points of view come up with all sorts of things... Having worked as a mechanic & in auto parts for many years taught me what things could be swapped. For example 60's Jeeps starters often used a Ford Bendix.
I learn a lot here - as it seems to be a collection of folks that are not only very bright, but have widely varying backgrounds. Kinda fun.
Senior Member
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
The reason the volt isn't selling isn't because of obama, big oil, insufficient tax deductions or even necessarily excessive price. It isn't selling well because it is a piece of sh!t.
Only 35 miles (actually even less in real world use) on LITHIUM IRON PHOSPHATE batteries are you kidding me. A lead acid Solectria Force (unfortunately out of business) will have the volt and all it's stupid owners on a barrel bending over forewards!
The leaf is a far better car, according to Prof. Ziyad Salameh of the Massachusetts Battery Evaluation Lab at the University of Massachusetts Lowell. He operates a sizeable fleet of solectrias for graduate students working towards their electrical engineering doctorates. Some have been converted from 120 V 65 ah lead acid to 144 V 100 ah Kokam Lithium Polymer cells and now are far faster and are able to go almost 200 miles per charge, up from 50 to 70 miles on lead acid or 120 miles on 144 v 80 ah Ovonics NiMh. He still intends to buy a Leaf if and when he can get enough money.
Even so the leaf has a lot of room for improvement, with high electricity consumption for its size and very complicated electronics (that have had some nasty glitches), along with a relatively small battery.
Senior Member
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
Only 35 miles on batteries? How does that compare to all the other cars on the road? Most of them can't make 35 inches on batteries alone.
The range on the Solectria and the Leaf is a bit better, (of course, you can always upgrade at enormous expense, as Prof Salameh has), but the limitation is that, eventually, you have to stop to re-charge.
The advantage of the Chevy Volt is that you have options. You can run on electric alone (for short trips), or you can run it on gas, giving the same range as a conventional car.
In my car, I almost always drive less than 30 miles per day, so either a Leaf or Volt would work well. But once a year, I have to drive 800 miles in a day. And that's something you can't do in a Leaf or Solectria, but you can do in a Volt.
In engineering, everything is a trade-off. In the perfect world, I'd have a Leaf for short trips, a Tesla for medium trips and a Prius for longer trips. But I don't want to own three cars, so I look for one car that balances the three needs. Right now, the Volt is the best solution.
Senior Member
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
Saw a Tesla sedan in the showroom the other day. Georgeous car and only $50, 60, or 70 grand (depending on your KW/range option). I'm still not convinced electric cars really solve any problem, but Tesla sure has the styling and desirability figured out.
Senior Member
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
Peter ----Well that is where you are wrong. It was done by Ford many years ago, They redid the way forklifts are recharged, and when the operator takes a break he plugs in the forklift to a 440 volt charge. And you can recharge in the same time frame that the batteries will discharge in........Everything will change if recharge time becomes irrelevant, if you can pull into a servo and have a new battery pack fitted in a few minutes .... it will be the same as petrol / gas .
Senior Member
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
Look at this revolution in technology!!
Senior Member
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
LeeG. -------What revolution in technology ??????????Look at this revolution in technology!!
The icebreakers on the great lakes are powered by electric motors, a prop hitting the ice would destroy a
internal combustion engine.
The banana boats of south america of the early 1900's where powered by electric motors as well, because it was cheaper....
But both of these systems also used diesel engines to run generators to recharge the batteries......
Senior Member
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
An ordinary user is happy to spend a few minutes a week refilling his / her car. It's what the population are used to and should be the aim for E cars too .
Perfect is the enemy of good.
Bedazzled
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
Ronw;......Sarchasm?
Electric vehicles are impractical, says a lot of people.......I've been using electric vehicles for years says I.
We don't know how lucky we are....
Senior Member
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
Studying the poor sales of the Volt, GM's marketing department concluded that one of the major problems was the lack of understanding on the part of the general public about how it works, and what it does. I had thought this was not the issue--it was mainly the price. After seeing the information posted on this thread, I now think they are right.
Senior Member
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
Dan, wasn't there a similar problem for GM when they first sold diesel-powered autos back in the 1980's? IIRC, they downplayed the subtle differences in diesel operation (such as waiting for the glow plugs to warm up when starting the motor), and ended up with many dissatisfied customers. Then, they adjusted their marketing strategy to educate potential customers about diesel-vs-gasoline motor differences,.
I've probably remembered it incorrectly, as usual.
(One thing I'm sure about is that upgrading to an aftermarket fuel filtration system would void the GM warranty.)
Tom
Senior Member
Re: Finally, a cogent argument against electric vehicles.
The old GM passenger-car diesel issue had several components. One was the lack of a proper water separator, the other was a pretty poor conversion from a gasoline block. Both reflected a poor engineering organization, as GM was one of the major heavy-duty diesel companies in the world, but there seemed to be little communication with the HD group. It was never blamed on the customer,other than through a lousy warranty program.
The Volt issue is much different--the idea being floated is that the basic benefit of running 90% of the time on all-electric power is getting confused with a range-limited all-electric car, or a high-mileage hybrid that consumes gasoline all the time, albeit getting good mileage. The Volt is a kind of hybrid, but one that operates most of time as an all-electric car. The all-electric range varies quite a bit, however, mainly because either the heater or air conditioning consumes about as much power as it takes to drive at a steady speed.
Still, if all cars operated as the Volt does, it would effectively shift passenger cars from running gasoline to running on electricity, eliminating the dependence on petroleum as a motor fuel, and shifting the dependence to the power grid. Whether or not this is a good idea is yet another issue.
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