Helicopter Pilots

[B_B]

A friend is going through a mid-life thing and wants to change careers and is interested becoming a helicopter pilot....and it's kinda sparked my interest too

Any opinions as to whether this is a good venture to get into?
Are we too old to learn (early to late 40's)?
Any tips, caveats, leads, cautionary tales?

Thanks in advance for any and all responses...ok maybe not all, we'll have to see what we get, eh?

[Norman Bernstein]

Perhaps BrianW will weigh in... he probably knows more about helicopters, operationally, than anyone else here... although John of Phoenix was a chopper pilot, as well.

I did read an account of the life of professional pilots, perhaps a year ago, or so... and was pretty shocked at how low the pay was, and how hard a life it was. Maybe it's not characteristic of helicopter pilots, though.

[Tylerdurden]

I did about ten hours of dual on helicopters and felt better staying a fixed wing pilot. I would say give it a go and see it if you enjoy it and you have the right stuff. As a career change I would have my doubts about it. You competing with a lot of ex-miltary guys and building time isn't cheap or easy.
Fixed wing is bad right now during the recession because the usual way to build time is to instruct. Its a very slow market. Better to back door and get your Airframe and Power plant mechanic first. Then you have a back up and remain in aviation waiting for an opportunity and a Pilot that can work on the Aircraft tend to be more valuable in short economy's.

[switters]

I did about ten hours of dual on helicopters and felt better staying a fixed wing pilot. I would say give it a go and see it if you enjoy it and you have the right stuff. As a career change I would have my doubts about it. You competing with a lot of ex-miltary guys and building time isn't cheap or easy.
Fixed wing is bad right now during the recession because the usual way to build time is to instruct. Its a very slow market. Better to back door and get your Airframe and Power plant mechanic first. Then you have a back up and remain in aviation waiting for an opportunity and a Pilot that can work on the Aircraft tend to be more valuable in short economy's.

+1 on competing with prior military, little brother just got out with thousands of hours flight time in a heavy hauler, a few hundred combat hours, and was thankful he could get his foot in the door flying co-pilot for fire suppression. If this is a midlife crisis it should be treated as a hobby and not a career change.

[Bob Smalser]

The big timber companies are often looking for pilots, the attrition rate being what it is.



While it doesn't always pay to heavy-lift logs out of the middle of the woods, given the cost per hour of the cargo birds capable of doing it, smaller birds are sometimes used to deploy the tower yarder's skyline cable down steep slopes or across valleys. Either way, flying with a cable tying you to the ground is sporting.

Qualifying as a mechanic first is good advice. Unlike the services, civilian pilots are often expected to perform much of their own second-echelon maintenance, and credentials there will make you more competitive.

[John of Phoenix]

I got out of the Army at age 31 having been a pilot since age 19 and went to work flying Bell Jet Rangers and Long Rangers for a commercial outfit in the Gulf of Mexico. I lived offshore on a gas production platform for a week at a time then was off for a week. That's the typical oil field schedule 7&7 or 14&14. I was provided a very comfortable (if stark) private bedroom, excellent food was available any time of day or night and I was even paid a modest per diem to live offshore. Most other pilots lived in mosquito infested single-wide trailers next to one of our several heliports and were required to provide their own food which could be genuinely disgusting. The "advantage" to living onshore was access to women and booze.

A typical day began before dawn with a preflight inspection and ended half an hour before dusk so if you went down there would be a little daylight to fish you out of the drink. The usual flight was to ferry parts or people between the various offshore platforms or shore facilities. Flights varied from 10 to 150 miles with no benefit of any nav equipment. No Loran or GPS, just a map with various platforms marked on it, a compass and a clock. Time, distance, heading. Dead reckoning over the ocean. Nav equipment is considerably better today.

The day I decided to quit flying in the oil patch.
This particular day wasn't much different than most, pretty boring. I was dispatched to a platform pick up a big drill bit, weighing probably 80lbs or so, and take it to a drilling rig. The roustabout who lugged the bit up to the helideck was a 20-something high school dropout with an attitude. He opened the cargo compartment, threw the bit in and slammed the door. The helicopter rocked when the bit hit the floor. I opened my door and waived him over. "Yeah?" he yelled over the noise. "Hey man, you might want to go easy on this bird. She looks tough but she's pretty fragile and you don't want to get stuck paying the repair bills if she gets hurt." He just grinned. "I ain't worried. And you'd be surprised how much I make." After supper that night I related the event to the platform supervisor and suggested he talk to the roustabout and maybe save him some grief and a bunch of dough. He said the guy had always been a smart ass, that he'd talk to him and then added, "And you WOULD be surprised how much that idiot makes." Was I EVER!

Turns out pilots, the guys with the most experience and the most dangerous job on the platform, got paid less than the newest, least experienced drone in the oil patch. I asked myself if I loved flying that much and decided on a career change. I'd do my flying in the Reserve or Guard.

So here's my recommendation: If you decide on a flying career, do it for your love of flying because you're not going to make much money at it, especially in the first SEVERAL years. Another point- everytime you change companies you go to the bottom of the food chain. You start from square one - seniority, pay, schedule, top bunk, the works.

By contrast, I made more when I started in my current career than I was making after 15 years of flying.

[BrianW]

B_B, you and your friend are not alone. As mentioned, I took 9hrs of helicopter training last summer. I split the hourly cost ($500 wet) with my friend who was doing the instructing. He need instructor time to maintain his CFI, and I just wanted to fly.

How much do you weigh? We had to get an R44, rather than the cheaper R22 because both of us are over 200lbs.

Anyhow, getting the license, even a commercial license, isn't hard. It's getting the time. Insurance companies require between 2000 and 4000hrs for some jobs. Best bet, if you can afford it, is to buy a helicopter and fly it to death.

I might still try to go fixed wing first, then switch over. Much cheaper, plus my company is more likely (due to insurance rates) to hire me as a fixed wing pilot than a rotary wing pilot. Wouldn't make much more than I do now (I've learned the fixed wing side of the company makes a lot less than we do, don't tell anyone I said that!), but it's something different.

[John of Phoenix]

Here's a link to salary info on the major commercial helicopter operators' salaries. http://www.helicoptersalaries.com/

And a link to an ebook on becoming a pilot. http://www.thehelicopterstore.com/Pr...oductCode=CDE1

For $15 it might be worth a look.
-------------------------------
100’s of questions will be answered by this EBook. Here is a short sampling:

What are the pre-requisites for becoming a helicopter pilot? Medical or legal disqualifications?
Is there really a shortage of helicopter pilots?
How much will flight training cost?
How will I pay for flight training? What are the options?
Do I need to fly airplanes before learning to fly helicopters?
Where can I find lists of schools?
Where can I find personal reviews or opinions on a particular flight school?
How do I choose a flight school and an instructor?
What about schools that claim to guarantee a job after training?
What type of helicopters are used for training?
Which helicopter should I use?
What is life as a student pilot in training like?
What is the employment outlook for helicopter pilots?
What is the life of a helicopter pilot like?
What kinds of schedules do helicopter pilots work?
What jobs are available in the helicopter industry and where are they?
How much can I expect to earn as a helicopter pilot?
How quickly can I advance in my career as a helicopter pilot?
What are traditional career paths for helicopter pilots?
And MUCH, MUCH MORE…

See Customer Book Reviews Below

------------------------
I found this excerpt amusing -
From relevent article in Chapter 14 titled, "Why you dont make any money!"
"So that begs the question-should we really be making any more money for what we do? Have you ever looked at what you guys do for a living? Guiding a contraption that is nothing but a gas bomb surrounded by slashing blades that will disintegrate at the slightest contact down through holes in huge trees and among jagged rocks. Hovering over mountainous waves in a gale at night with a guy attached to you by a swinging cable, so far out in the ocean that you probably won’t have enough gas to get home. Scud running through towers, power lines, and notches in the hills with just enough vis for an “OH s**t” before you hit something, carrying somebody’s broken child in the back that’s dying by the second. Spending your entire workday shifting your concentration from instruments at three feet to the end of a 100' cable while using both hands and feet to maintain your position in the air, where just shutting your eyes for ten seconds to ease the strain would cause a violent, fatal, zillion dollar wreck. Doing twenty or thirty landings a day while poking around in the summertime soup that’s the GOM. I know you feel relatively safe, and even enjoy it some, but you have to look at it objectively. The U.S. Forest Service pays its firefighters 25% more for working around helicopters than for just fighting raging forest fires. The Emergency Services folks in the region where I flew EMS required that a fully staffed fire truck be present whenever a helicopter landed off an airport. That’s when I started asking myself “Am I a cross between Evel Knievel and the Lone Ranger?” If I am, then why is everybody else on the job making more money, and ......"

------------------------

Along the same lines, here's a FAQ page from a helicopter oriented web site. Be sure to read the "updates" at the bottom of the page. Sounds like the job market is pretty tough.

[Norman Bernstein]

I got out of the Army at age 31 having been a pilot since age 19 and went to work flying Bell Jet Rangers and Long Rangers for a commercial outfit in the Gulf of Mexico. I lived offshore on a gas production platform for a week at a time then was off for a week. That's the typical oil field schedule 7&7 or 14&14. I was provided a very comfortable (if stark) private bedroom, excellent food was available any time of day or night and I was even paid a modest per diem to live offshore. Most other pilots lived in mosquito infested single-wide trailers next to one of our several heliports and were required to provide their own food which could be genuinely disgusting. The "advantage" to living onshore was access to women and booze.

A typical day began before dawn with a preflight inspection and ended half an hour before dusk so if you went down there would be a little daylight to fish you out of the drink. The usual flight was to ferry parts or people between the various offshore platforms or shore facilities. Flights varied from 10 to 150 miles with no benefit of any nav equipment. No Loran or GPS, just a map with various platforms marked on it, a compass and a clock. Time, distance, heading. Dead reckoning over the ocean. Nav equipment is considerably better today.

The day I decided to quit flying in the oil patch.
This particular day wasn't much different than most, pretty boring. I was dispatched to a platform pick up a big drill bit, weighing probably 80lbs or so, and take it to a drilling rig. The roustabout who lugged the bit up to the helideck was a 20-something high school dropout with an attitude. He opened the cargo compartment, threw the bit in and slammed the door. The helicopter rocked when the bit hit the floor. I opened my door and waived him over. "Yeah?" he yelled over the noise. "Hey man, you might want to go easy on this bird. She looks tough but she's pretty fragile and you don't want to get stuck paying the repair bills if she gets hurt." He just grinned. "I ain't worried. And you'd be surprised how much I make." After supper that night I related the event to the platform supervisor and suggested he talk to the roustabout and maybe save him some grief and a bunch of dough. He said the guy had always been a smart ass, that he'd talk to him and then added, "And you WOULD be surprised how much that idiot makes." Was I EVER!

Turns out pilots, the guys with the most experience and the most dangerous job on the platform, got paid less than the newest, least experienced drone in the oil patch. I asked myself if I loved flying that much and decided on a career change. I'd do my flying in the Reserve or Guard.

So here's my recommendation: If you decide on a flying career, do it for your love of flying because you're not going to make much money at it, especially in the first SEVERAL years. Another point- everytime you change companies you go to the bottom of the food chain. You start from square one - seniority, pay, schedule, top bunk, the works.

By contrast, I made more when I started in my current career than I was making after 15 years of flying.

John,

Thanks for that story... very interesting! I presume the Bell Jet Ranger is the commercial equivalent of the military Huey?

Also, in all those years.... did you ever lose an engine and have to autorotate down?

[John of Phoenix]

Here's another thought. Go to an airport where helicopters operate and talk to some pilots. Ask them how they got started and what life is like. Next, set up an "information interview" with the people who hire those pilots. Tell them that you're interested in changing careers and ask them what they look for in a pilot.

[John of Phoenix]

John,

Thanks for that story... very interesting! I presume the Bell Jet Ranger is the commercial equivalent of the military Huey?

Also, in all those years.... did you ever lose an engine and have to autorotate down?

The civilian Jet Ranger is the Army's OH-58A Kiowa (having a slightly more powerful engine).



The latest version of the Kiowa is the D model with a four blade rotor, more powerful engine and of course the very sophisticated optics/electronics and weapons package.



The UH-1 Huey (officially the Iroquois) was the workhorse of Vietnam and is still in extensive civilian use as the Bell 205 though the Army now relies on the Blackhawk for troop transport, Dustoff and utility missions.


I was shot down twice in Cobras.



The first time they hit the DC circuit breaker panel and started an electrical fire that disabled the fuel boost pumps and I had to land (with power) before running out of fuel. The second time was a full autorotation as the engine was shot out (what a noise that sucker made). I landed in a dry rice paddy and we could hardly tell when we touched down. Smooooth. I was quite pleased with it.

As an instructor I've done probably 10,000 touchdown autos - day, night, night vision goggles, low level, high speed, hovering, out of ground effect hovering, during takeoff, during landing, to runways to sod, you name it. Lots of fun especially night unaided and night vision goggles! Thrill a minute.

[Norman Bernstein]

The first time they hit the DC circuit breaker panel and started an electrical fire that disabled the fuel boost pumps and I had to land (with power) before running out of fuel. The second time was a full autorotation as the engine was shot out (what a noise that sucker made). I landed in a dry rice paddy and we could hardly tell when we touched down. Smooooth. I was quite pleased with it.

As an instructor I've done probably 10,000 touchdown autos - day, night, night vision goggles, low level, high speed, hovering, out of ground effect hovering, during takeoff, during landing, to runways to sod, you name it. Lots of fun especially night unaided and night vision goggles! Thrill a minute.

Hmmm.. as much as I'm intrigued by flying of all sorts, I can live without a 'thirll a minute', myself

As long as you're here, and if you don't mind one more question:

I was always curious about how helicopter engines are linked to the rotors.. and a while back, finally learned how it's done, for piston-engined helicopters. Courtesy of BrianW, I also learned how it's done in a single engine jet helicopter......

......but how is it done in a single rotor helicopter with multiple engines? Are the output shafts of the two engines geared together? If one engine craps out, does the dead engine represent a load on the power of the remaining one?

[Reynard38]

Can't speak to helicopters, but as far as pursuing a career as a pilot all I can say is DON'T. I don't know any pilot that is an encouraging his kid to follow in his footsteps. One of my Copilots was once asked by a FAA inspector I had on my jumpseat " you want your kids to be pilots don't you, we are going to need lots of pilots in the next decade". My copilot responded "I'd rather see my son be a piano player in a whorehouse".
its the best job in the worst industry.

[John of Phoenix]

......but how is it done in a single rotor helicopter with multiple engines? Are the output shafts of the two engines geared together? If one engine craps out, does the dead engine represent a load on the power of the remaining one?

I flew the Twin Cobra, AH-1J, when I was an advisor in Iran.

Each engine has a sprag clutch that either engages under power or disengages if the engine fails. It's like that dog-bone device in a single engine setup. The sprags feed into a combining gearbox that drives the main transmission. If an engine fails it simply drops off line. An interesting design feature - the engines are separated by a blast wall to prevent an exploding engine from damaging the good one.

It was kind of funny, in Iran one of my roles was advisor to the aviation safety officer. You have to remember that nothing is straight forward there - it's always round about, as much social as business. He kept asking obtuse questions about accident investigation and finally after a couple of weeks he pulled out several folders of photos - a crashed Cobra, a couple of wrecked Hueys, a burned out Kiowa and a Chinook that had strayed over the border and been riddled with 20mm shells. All were pilot error accidents but he was really pissed about the Cobra. The number 1 engine had failed and the pilot inadvertantly shut down number 2 - SPLAT. They never even discussed autorotations least of all actually practice them because... there are two engines.

[Norman Bernstein]

Each engine has a sprag clutch that either engages under power or disengages if the engine fails. It's like that dog-bone device in a single engine setup. The sprags feed into a combining gearbox that drives the main transmission. If an engine fails it simply drops off line. An interesting design feature - the engines are separated by a blast wall to prevent an exploding engine from damaging the good one.

Ahh, OK.... makes total sense. However, it also implies that it's up to the pilot to balance the power contributed by each engine. I was under the impression that the throttle, in a helicopter, was a 'twist grip' on the collective stick.... are there two of them? Or is power balancing automated? How do you tell when each engine is contributing an equal share of power?

[B_B]

B_B, you and your friend are not alone. As mentioned, I took 9hrs of helicopter training last summer. I split the hourly cost ($500 wet) with my friend who was doing the instructing. He need instructor time to maintain his CFI, and I just wanted to fly.

How much do you weigh? We had to get an R44, rather than the cheaper R22 because both of us are over 200lbs.

Anyhow, getting the license, even a commercial license, isn't hard. It's getting the time. Insurance companies require between 2000 and 4000hrs for some jobs. Best bet, if you can afford it, is to buy a helicopter and fly it to death.

I might still try to go fixed wing first, then switch over. Much cheaper, plus my company is more likely (due to insurance rates) to hire me as a fixed wing pilot than a rotary wing pilot. Wouldn't make much more than I do now (I've learned the fixed wing side of the company makes a lot less than we do, don't tell anyone I said that!), but it's something different.

Thanks B-Dub.
Thankfully I'm not too heavy (chubby but not heavy, eh?)

Many training services appear to use the Schweizer 300C or the Robinson R22 but I was thinking of taking it in turbines, or combo piston-turbine (half the hours in piston half in turbine)...cost is always a consideration.

WRT buying a helo, been thinking about that for a long time as a hobby, particularly an ultralight like the Mosquito, but, AFAIK, Canada doesn't have pilots license exception for ultralight helo's (i.e. you need a helo pilots license to fly any helo). Those come from the factory, built, for about $50,000, which is a lot less than a used R-22 with hours to go, but still a commitment.

The service around here will hire pilots with 1,500 hrs so getting a job is a little less prohibitive in that regard.

I've thought about the pilot to helo pilot path, but my interest isn't in flying planes, so it's something I'd have to do that I don't really want to do...but cost is a consideration.

Here's a link to salary info on the major commercial helicopter operators' salaries. http://www.helicoptersalaries.com/

...

Along the same lines, here's a FAQ page from a helicopter oriented web site. Be sure to read the "updates" at the bottom of the page. Sounds like the job market is pretty tough.

Thanks, I've peeked but not read thoroughly.

...

Turns out pilots, the guys with the most experience and the most dangerous job on the platform, got paid less than the newest, least experienced drone in the oil patch. I asked myself if I loved flying that much and decided on a career change. I'd do my flying in the Reserve or Guard.

So here's my recommendation: If you decide on a flying career, do it for your love of flying because you're not going to make much money at it, especially in the first SEVERAL years. Another point- everytime you change companies you go to the bottom of the food chain. You start from square one - seniority, pay, schedule, top bunk, the works.

John of Phoenix, I was hoping you'd chime in, thanks. It's not about the money, it is about flying, and acquiring another skill set, working 'outdoors', having a fairly portable license should one want to go somewhere different ...

That being said I totally get how any, absolutely any, job that seems exciting and adventurous from the outside can have it's mundane, repetitive, and frustrating aspects. And yes, I'm glad (although slightly nostalgic) that GPS has revolutionized my sailing as well as any potential flying I might do.

And yes, I too understand how much oil rig / mining people make - a truck driver at the mines makes about $100,000 in the mines here - no education or experience required, just some on job training.

But a little less income doing something different which one enjoys mightn't be a bad thing.

Here's another thought. Go to an airport where helicopters operate and talk to some pilots. Ask them how they got started and what life is like. Next, set up an "information interview" with the people who hire those pilots. Tell them that you're interested in changing careers and ask them what they look for in a pilot.

I do have a call in to the local helo operator. We'll see what he says. They run a flight school (not here, but it's theirs) so that is an added bonus.

...its the best job in the worst industry.

Good to keep in mind.

[John of Phoenix]

Ahh, OK.... makes total sense. However, it also implies that it's up to the pilot to balance the power contributed by each engine. I was under the impression that the throttle, in a helicopter, was a 'twist grip' on the collective stick.... are there two of them? Or is power balancing automated? How do you tell when each engine is contributing an equal share of power?

The twist throttles for these helicopters are on the collective, #1 fore, #2 aft, but once they're advanced, RPM control and power matching are automatic. That's typical for turbine powered helicopters. A recip engine does require manual RPM control. The only time manual throttle control is required with a turbine is during various emergency procedures.

As to monitoring each individual engine, each has its own set of instruments but unless something malfunctions, they stay pretty much pegged to each other. It's not something that we spend a lot of time watching as there's lots of other things going on and often the first indication of trouble is usually a caution light, an odd noise (or lack of noise) or some unexpected action of the helicopter, i.e. a pitch, roll or yaw.

[John of Phoenix]

It's not about the money, it is about flying, and acquiring another skill set, working 'outdoors', having a fairly portable license should one want to go somewhere different ...

Well, you're in it for the right reasons then. You'll experience things others only imagine. Good luck to you and your friend.

I'll share my good luck mantra with you. Just before your first pitch-pull of the day say, "Let's boogie!" Have a blast.

[B_B]

Well, you're in it for the right reasons then. You'll experience things others only imagine. Good luck to you and your friend.

I'll share my good luck mantra with you. Just before your first pitch-pull of the day say, "Let's boogie!" Have a blast.

Thanks, but it's still early days. Just kicking the tyres so to speak.

[Wavewacker]

Dang it John, now I can't get the Flight of the Valkyries out of my head!

Don't take those autorotations for granted, I cleared the auto and go and had a crash, killed the pilot and student survived but never flew again!

Most fun I had was in co-pilots seat of an AH-1 on an orientation flight with an IP, he was nuts too! I kept my breakfast and he felt as if he had failed....LOL

Like John suggested and others, fly for the love of flying. At 40, IMO, it's way to late to compete with X military pilots that can't get a decent flying job. I know two in my town, one was an instructor, and couldn't get on with Medivac....if you want to know what it's like, call some at hospitals, an Emergency Room nurse makes more and has better hours.

[B_B]

...if you want to know what it's like, call some at hospitals, an Emergency Room nurse makes more and has better hours.

My sister is a nurse, my mother in law is a nurse, my brother in law is a nurse, his wife is a nurse...I know how much nurses make. I also know what nurses do!

[Wavewacker]

My sister is a nurse, my mother in law is a nurse, my brother in law is a nurse, his wife is a nurse...I know how much nurses make. I also know what nurses do!

LOL, then you really know a nurse!

[BrianW]

Just for conversation... not all twin engine helicopters use a combining gearbox (cbox) to connect the engines, and the send the power to the transmission via a single driveshaft. That set up is popular with Bell, and their Huey and Cobra because they were both first designed as single engine helicopters, and their main gearbox only had one spot for the input shaft to connect.

In Sikorski products, each engine connects to the main gearbox with it's own output shaft (driveshaft). The gearbox is designed to accept two inputs, not one.

In this picture of a Blackhawk drivetrain...



...the top image is looking down from above the helicopter. The black square in the middle is the oil cooler. On either side (top and bottom as the picture is oriented) are the engines. Each engine has an output shaft running forward into an input gearbox, which are both bolted onto the main gearbox which is the roughly circle looking thing in the middle.

Now if either engine, output shaft, or input gearbox fails, the other system is not connected, and can continue to power the main gearbox.

A failed cbox/main driveshaft on this company 214ST (Huey on steroids) resulted in this a couple years ago...



A Sikorski helicopter, with separate systems would have kept on flying.

[John of Phoenix]

Yeah, they certainly burn well.

There are five Hueys in this LZ - four at the lower left and one off the nose of the Chinook. There are two burned out Cobras on the face of the hill out of view.
Have I ever mentioned our little foray into Laos, Lam Son 719? I can now admit, I've never been so fu<%in' scared in my life.

[Chris Coose]

A couple of brothers, me and another friend/class mate set out to train to be aviaitors out of high school (c 1970). One of the brothers went into the military to fly helicopters, the other brother had a wealthy FIL and he went to Florida to pay tuition to airline flight schools, the other to Embry Riddle and me to Northeastern University where they had a school for a brief period of time at Norwood, MA airport.
I spent 2 years at it but took my instructors advice as I didn't have nearly enough money to continue training and compete with the military pilots.
The Embry Riddle guy came home and took up real estate.
John Lund is still flying corporate helicopters. He doesn't talk much about his life long career and it is obvious he'll be glad to get done.
Bob, his brother flew for American and had the NY to London run for years. He retired well a few years ago and is still flying about whenever he can or for whoever will have him.

Both shake their heads when they talk about what commercial avaition has become over 40 years.

[Jim Bow]

A co worker of mine picked a night shift and took the helicopter course at Helicopters Northwest at Boeing Field. Continuous daily classes from ground school through licensing. He was 33 at the time. After two years of job searching, he was hired in Alaska for a cargo delivery outfit. Last I heard, he was on their ready board, and was given flights only when all the senior pilots were unavailable. He's still up there, driving a school bus, and Gray Line Tour buses in between flights.

[Norman Bernstein]

I've read that copilots on those short haul commuter planes, like Delta Express (flying twin engine high wing turboprops) earn as little as $20K/yr.... truly pitiful.

[Reynard38]

This is true. And that is after attending a school like Embry Riddle and racking up student loans of $125k or more!
Due to the Colgan Air crash in Buffulo several years ago the requirement for Copilots will be raised from 250 hours to 1500 hours next year. Should have been this way all along.
Unless your dad is an Arab oil sheik you will not buy 1500 hours of flight time!

[B_B]

This is true. And that is after attending a school like Embry Riddle and racking up student loans of $125k or more!
Due to the Colgan Air crash in Buffulo several years ago the requirement for Copilots will be raised from 250 hours to 1500 hours next year. Should have been this way all along.
Unless your dad is an Arab oil sheik you will not buy 1500 hours of flight time!

I've only seen one helo school in Canada (didn't look too hard, though) that has a flight simulator - I suspect that at least some of those 1,500 hours will not have to actually be in an aircraft for the very reason you mention.

I've watched enough Ice Pilots to know that a beginner pilot's primary task is as a 'rampy'...another is driving delivery for their parcel service.

[John of Phoenix]

I've only seen one helo school in Canada (didn't look too hard, though) that has a flight simulator - I suspect that at least some of those 1,500 hours will not have to actually be in an aircraft for the very reason you mention.

I've watched enough Ice Pilots to know that a beginner pilot's primary task is as a 'rampy'...another is driving delivery for their parcel service.

We used simulators for Huey instrument training and they were very realistic. Some years later they developed a visual simulator for Cobras, primarily to lower the cost of gunnery training, but the realism factor missed the mark by a long shot. It just didn't handle like a Cobra. By today's standards, it was pretty primative - it was a fiber optic image taken from a terrain board. There was a tiny camera attached to a boom that "flew" over an HO scale landscape and the image was projected onto a screen just beyond the canopy. It was pretty fuzzy and was usless at "altitudes" greater than 100' as the camera didn't have the capability to focus at that distance. It was cool to shoot though - mini gun, 20mm cannon, rockets and missiles.

Here are pictures of each. The Huey is obvious, the Cobra, because of the visual display, not at all. I can't find a picture of the terrain board, but it's impressive, about half the size of a football field. It has hills, mountains, rivers, trees, villages, towns, airports, farms with cows and chickens, and of course columns of Russian tanks.

They were good for their purposes by nothing like actual flying and hours logged in the simulator were not counted toward flight hours or minimums. I don't think one could learn to fly by simulator alone but they certainly help with cockpit and emergency procedures. I sent many students to the sim for just that.

[BrianW]

Yeah, they certainly burn well.

They do. That one, the pilot did a great auto, and everyone was picked up by the sister ship. The "locals" were there within 20 minutes, and rpg'd it.

[John of Phoenix]

They do. That one, the pilot did a great auto, and everyone was picked up by the sister ship. The "locals" were there within 20 minutes, and rpg'd it.

That makes sense. I was looking at the skid marks and thought they looked very well controlled and couldn't figure out why it burned or why there was so little wreckage scattered around if it crashed. Same fate as two of the Hueys on LZ Lolo - RPGs.

[Bobby of Tulsa]

This is JOP's fault

[Bob Smalser]

After you get established and age some, beware the Probability and Statistics Monster. IE, keep doing dangerous stuff long enough and the monster will catch up to you. A helicopter is a machine that doesn't want to fly; it's kept in the air only by two highly-skilled hands and feet paying 100pct attention controlling components in sound and well-maintained condition.

In 33 years infantry service, I lost more friends in helicopter downings than to all other reasons combined. Almost none of them involved hostile fire. And of the three I was personally involved in, only one was a neat, incident-free autorotation to a nice, clean spot on the ground. And that was a light, UH-1 at Benning that lost power. The other was a H-13 whirlybird with all of 200hp blown into the side of a mountain in Colorado, and the one that got me thinking about it being time to retire was a heavy Blackhawk in Kuwait that decided to disgorge part of its transmission out the side of the overhead cowling, catch fire, and experience a blade strike upon clobbering in hard next to a concrete wall.

And I was never more than a passenger.

My concern about planning operations using lift always included survivability, and it's something for prospective pilots to think about, too. Most downings are because of mechanical failure. The Kiowas and Hueys are clean, light birds that tend toward light landings you can walk away from if a broken rotor doesn't get you. The Blackhawk is a heavy monster that clobbers in extremely hard when it loses power. And the larger CH-46's and CH-47's are absolute disasters, survivability-wise, and I used to avoid them like the plague when I could. Not to mention you lose 30-40 souls in them rather than 6-12.

Add a few parachute incidents across the same time frame, and it's always interesting to watch a doc's eyebrows raise when he gets to the xrays of my sacroiliac. Keep both eyes wide open and take care of yourself.

[oldsub86]

I'm with Bob on this one.
I know a fellow who is a long time metalurgical engineer in the aerospace industry and now a professor.
His view relating to helicopters is not "if" they will crash, but "when" they will crash.

Randy

[B_B]

... Keep both eyes wide open and take care of yourself.

I'm with Bob on this one.
I know a fellow who is a long time metalurgical engineer in the aerospace industry and now a professor.
His view relating to helicopters is not "if" they will crash, but "when" they will crash.

Randy

Thanks everyone. While I'm sure all of the cautionary tales are from the heart, honest, and true, it must be said that, for example, with regard to an expensive education with scary employment prospects I've met people with Ph.D's who've flipped burgers or driven taxi. Everything one does has risks. Sitting at a desk for a crappy employer, I'm willing to bet, has killed more people (from a loss of hope and will to live) than any helo accident.

But yes, the idea that my life, and, more importantly, the lives of other's, will be in the hands of my attention span and my attention to detail, does somewhat weigh on my thoughts.

Thanks again for a very informative and entertaining thread (damn you Bobby of Tulsa! Chicks dig Huey's! FWIW when I told SWMBO I was daydreaming about it she said "do it!" I told it'd cost at least $100,000, she said "Do it!" - two days later she brings me some forms from her work about spousal life insurance.... True story. No joke.).

[hokiefan]

...

Thanks again for a very informative and entertaining thread (damn you Bobby of Tulsa! Chicks dig Huey's! FWIW when I told SWMBO I was daydreaming about it she said "do it!" I told it'd cost at least $100,000, she said "Do it!" - two days later she brings me some forms from her work about spousal life insurance.... True story. No joke.).

About 21 years ago my wife told me that. Said she didn't wanna listen to "Woulda, shoulda, coulda..." Thats how I ended up with a worn out Seabird Yawl in my side yard for 5 years. Two weeks before my daughter was born.

Cheers,

Bobby

[BrianW]

Sounds like you've got a keeper B_B.

If it helps... I've flown as a flight mechanic/crew chief, for 29 years now, and never crashed. Had some minor issues, a few compressor stalls, and some weather that could have been nasty. Gotta use your head, check your equipment, watch your pilots/copilot, monitor radios, weather, terrain, and make timely suggestions in a manner which invites compliance and not anger.

But everyone in the industry, knows someone, who's died in a helicopter wreck.

[B_B]

.... I ended up with a worn out Seabird Yawl in my side yard for 5 years.
Cheers,
Bobby

I had a few of those dreams too, and she's been there in good way each time - once I saw a carvel planked hull for sale and said "that sounds interesting" two days later we go for a drive, end up in some guys yard, she says "there, that's the one you wanted, right? I bought it" which is how I ended up on the WBF the first time freakin 12 years ago.

And like, I surmise, with your Seabird Yawl, dreams are great when they're NOT in your yard!

Sounds like you've got a keeper B_B.

If it helps... I've flown as a flight mechanic/crew chief, for 29 years now, and never crashed. Had some minor issues, a few compressor stalls, and some weather that could have been nasty. Gotta use your head, check your equipment, watch your pilots/copilot, monitor radios, weather, terrain, and make timely suggestions in a manner which invites compliance and not anger.

But everyone in the industry, knows someone, who's died in a helicopter wreck.

I don't doubt that SWMBO's a keeper, been together 18 yrs primarily because no-one else would have me

The risks are real, the risks are known. Thanks, though.

[Bobby of Tulsa]

I had a few of those dreams too, and she's been there in good way each time - once I saw a carvel planked hull for sale and said "that sounds interesting" two days later we go for a drive, end up in some guys yard, she says "there, that's the one you wanted, right? I bought it" which is how I ended up on the WBF the first time freakin 12 years ago.

And like, I surmise, with your Seabird Yawl, dreams are great when they're NOT in your yard!


I don't doubt that SWMBO's a keeper, been together 18 yrs primarily because no-one else would have me

The risks are real, the risks are known. Thanks, though.

Follow your dreams, life is to short to worry about what if. Good luck.

[Bob Smalser]

Everything one does has risks. Sitting at a desk for a crappy employer...

Oh, don't get me wrong...I'll go flying with you tomorrow if I could. And the most fun I recall having with my pants on was gunning NOE in a Cobra with my boss piloting in back. The Army didn't used to allow career aviation officers, only part-timers who rotated back to infantry, armor or cavalry ground duty.

But there's a dark side, too, and it deserves your full attention. While civilian pilots don't often have to fly NOE with night-vision devices in dangerous night ops, many ex-military pilots will tell you that maintenance in the civilian world is often abysmal. And like I said, most helicopter downings are because of mechanical failure. Hence I think those aviation mechanic courses are a good first step.

[BrianW]

...many ex-military pilots will tell you that maintenance in the civilian world is often abysmal.

What I've seen, is most ex-military pilots get pissed when I tell them to clean the cockpit and windshield. That's their workstation, they can clean it.

Thank goodness I've got an ex-CWO4 boss who backs us up.

I take umbrage with your statement Bob. But since it can't be backed up with data, I'm going to assume it's just your personal opinion.

[Bob Smalser]

I take umbrage with your statement Bob. But since it can't be backed up with data, I'm just going to assume it's just your personal opinion.

Don't be silly. It's no surprise to me the maintenance you personally have been associated with in the Coast Guard and for the well-funded major oil company vendors has been first-rate and all your experiences positive.

But that simply isn't the case for everyone else, and the comments about maintenance across the board in civilian firms ranging from 3-employee tour guide outfits to gypo logging operations with old, worn-out, abused gear are too common, and too longstanding to be just my opinion.

[BrianW]

What causes more crashes?

Shoddy maintenance, or ex-military helicopter pilots?

[BrianW]

And like I said, most helicopter downings are because of mechanical failure.

I don't think that's true.

[Tylerdurden]

[Bob Smalser]

I don't think that's true.

You're the aviation professional You tell me. Surely you have a rack of those aviation safety magazines next to your collection of PS Magazines (called Lifer Comics back in the day).





Just keep in mind that every safety incident involves "Pilot Error", beginning with such an unlucky guy deciding to become a pilot in the first place.

[John of Phoenix]

Hey Bobby, thanks for the Huey video. It's true, chicks dig Hueys, but they go CRAZY for Cobras.

I still get goose bumps when I hear that "whop, whop, whop" of a Huey but every once in a great while I hear the unmistakable GROWL of Cobra. What a thrill that is.

[John of Phoenix]

Of the accidents I investigated, the majority were pilot error. All kinds of things go wrong - weather and night/night vision related being the most deadly because there is usually some degree of loss of control involved. I have had my share of mechanical failures, ranging from cracked oil fittings to near transmission disintegration to tail rotor failure to compressor stall to etc. Too many to count. I've been fortunate that my training and reflexes got me through everything without scratching the paint.

On the other hand, I've lost friends on the most routine of missions. It's part of the job.

[Bobby of Tulsa]

Hey Bobby, thanks for the Huey video. It's true, chicks dig Hueys, but they go CRAZY for Cobras.

I still get goose bumps when I hear that "whop, whop, whop" of a Huey but every once in a great while I hear the unmistakable GROWL of Cobra. What a thrill that is.

You are welcome Sir, I just stumbled on to that. Thought it was kinda neat.