3 year old shoots self dead with handgun

[Dave Wright]

This one was tucked under the front seat as Dad went to pump gas and Mom went into the convenience store.

And that's illegal in Washington State; permit is for carry on person. Salty should have told you that.

[Donn]

Nice dodge from a "responsible" gun owner.
If you wont/ can't validate your own ownership and carrying of a weapon, methinks you have little credibility in these sort of debates.

Let me try to put this in terms even you can understand.

I have no need to "validate" my ownership or use of guns to anyone on this forum, least of all, you. The subject is absolutely none of your business.

[skuthorp]

Defensive Donn, very defensive, but I do agree with your point. But it is one of the big cultural divides between our respective countries.

[Ian McColgin]

I must agree with Donn here, gun ownership is not a necessary admission ticket to this debate on either side.

[Donn]

Defensive Donn, very defensive, but I do agree with your point. But it is one of the big cultural divides between our respective countries.

I see. Y'all talk about your gun ownership and use in public and on the internet? Keep your culture. I prefer mine.

[skuthorp]

As it happens we do have our own problems, http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/b...-1226265566576 which are mostly tied to criminal organisations. Bikie gangs are particularly prone
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/b...-1226265566576
but your average citizen does not have one under a car seat.

BTW Donn, I wondered if, seeing where it was, the parents had simply forgotten it was there?

[skuthorp]

One doesn't discount the other.

[S.V. Airlie]

Let me try to put this in terms even you can understand.

I have no need to "validate" my ownership or use of guns to anyone on this forum, least of all, you. The subject is absolutely none of your business.

I agree completely Donn. It's your business. I vol. my information specifically but it was my choice alone to do so..

[Boater14]

Dad was ready if someone flipped him the bird on the expressway.

[SaltyBoatr]

300 or so children are killed each year when they are crushed by a TV falling on them, how many here have their TV and dressers tethered to the wall? Almost 15,000 injures a year.

I have mine tethered. What kills more each year, TV's or guns. I looked it up, TV's and dressers.

Do you care about the children or gun control?

See what you did there? Red herring fallacy.

Regardless, it does still seem sensible to have a law that makes is a crime to leave an unsecured handgun in the presence of a child.

This death was not an 'accident', it was negligence.

[S.V. Airlie]

You just said the cops said it was an accident.LOL You underlined it.

[Ian McColgin]

According the the linked story, the father placed the firearm under the seat when he got out to pump gas. We don't know whether he had it tucked in his belt or a clip holster or what, but evidently he didn't want to carry it openly while pumping gas. Clearly it was loaded. But there is no need for any gunner education or laws because the responsible ones will get it anyway and those not so responsible will end their gene line if not by killing themselves, then by killing their kids. Most Darwinian.

[Phillip Allen]

Um, this may be a dumb question, but can anyone explain why anyone needs to carry a handgun in the glovebox of a passenger vehicle?

Serious question.

no one said anything but it is quite possible that the store had a sign up banning guns on its premisis. the need to go in the store caused the man to put it in the glove box for a moment so he could pay for his gasoline... it's the sign's fault I guess (I would have unloaded it to do so myself)

[Ian McColgin]

The linked OP story said nothing about the fellow going into the station and thus provides no basis for the speculation at #64. Perhaps there is more info out there that the poster could link us to.

[Phillip Allen]

The linked OP story said nothing about the fellow going into the station and thus provides no basis for the speculation at #64. Perhaps there is more info out there that the poster could link us to.

she asked why... I gave a 'for instance'... what are you attempting to say, Ian?

[Ian McColgin]

At post #63 I said what I had to say about the fact that we really don't know why he put the gun under the seat to pump gas. I don't like speculations too far in front of the evidence. As I look over post #64, I see that it was made explicit right up front that "no one said anything but it is quite possible . . ." I should have viewed that qualifier as adequate and I should not have been snitty in #65. Phillip, I am sorry for that.

[Phillip Allen]

At post #63 I said what I had to say about the fact that we really don't know why he put the gun under the seat to pump gas. I don't like speculations too far in front of the evidence. As I look over post #64, I see that it was made explicit right up front that "no one said anything but it is quite possible . . ." I should have viewed that qualifier as adequate and I should not have been snitty in #65. Phillip, I am sorry for that.

don't worry about it Ian... it's not worth getting upset about anyway

[ljb5]

Um, this may be a dumb question, but can anyone explain why anyone needs to carry a handgun in the glovebox of a passenger vehicle?

With two children in the car at 12:30 am?!

I'm just speculating here, but I suspect meth was involved.

[brad9798]

I will have to concur with ljb5 ... the 12:30am thing is RIDICULOUS!!!!

B

[Phillip Allen]

I will have to concur with ljb5 ... the 12:30am thing is RIDICULOUS!!!!

B

so now it seems possible they were traveling, perhaps to a new and better life... anyone know?

[brad9798]

I SERIOUSLY doubt it, Phillip ... you post too much ...

[Dutch]

3 year old shoots self dead with handgun

wouldnt it have been something if the kid had been able to shoot himself to life with a handgun?

[brad9798]

WOW ... shame on you 'dutch...'

[hokiefan]

Here's your change:

I don't own a gun. But I grew up around them and was raised to respect them and handle them safely. The person holding the gun is responsible for where the bullet goes. That includes the bullet from the gun you hid under the mattress that your 6 year old "doesn't know about". Because he does know about it.

Bobby

[Meli]

A six year old is responsible for the bullet?

I think you ought to re think that one.

[Willin']

I just find it odd that at 12:30 AM, while pumping gas, the owner decided that was the one time he didn't need to have his gun on his person for personal protection.

I'll leave it in the car in case there's anyone in there I need to protect my family from while I'm outside pumping gas.

A puzzlement.

[Phillip Allen]

It was an accident. The parents will suffer with this for life. The idea on turning this into a political issue is disgusting and shameful. You don't see these same people bemoaning an accidental poisoning or a seconds lack of attention resulting in a pedestrian death or injury. I am a pretty mindful person because of military discipline so when the kids were small I kept guns locked up at all times past personal carry. I can see how easily a mistake could be made. My thoughts are with the parents now as it should be for the rest of us.

I'm afraid that salty's thoughts are with emotional/political advantage... he may deny it but I'm convinced just the same

[Phillip Allen]

I just find it odd that at 12:30 AM, while pumping gas, the owner decided that was the one time he didn't need to have his gun on his person for personal protection.

I'll leave it in the car in case there's anyone in there I need to protect my family from while I'm outside pumping gas.

A puzzlement.

I've said it before, though you may not have picked up on it... many convenience stores have signs up banning guns on the premises. these are meant to comply with the law which states to permit holders that if that sign is there, it trumps their concealed carry permit... look for your self as you enter businesses... you'll see those signs every day. They are a sort of legal oubliette

[JimD]

Dad was ready if someone flipped him the bird on the expressway.

I hope he was more ready than this guy. Reaching under the seat while you are driving can be dangerous.

[JimD]

... The idea on turning this into a political issue is disgusting and shameful. ....

Whereas its never bothered me at all to use a tragic event as a focal point to discuss its political/legal/cultural aspects. Don't know why some of you are so bothered by this.

[SaltyBoatr]

It was an accident. ... . My thoughts are with the parents now as it should be for the rest of us.

Tyler, I find it offensive that you make excuses for child abuse and defend child abusers.

No it was not an accident. It was negligence.

I totally have empathy for the anguish these parents probably are feeling now. (And candidly, we do not know whether these parents are psychotic or not. Certainly normal people would feel anguish. I am inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt, but we just don't know if they are psychopathic or not. )

Yet, we must not be ignore what we do know: These parents have proven themselves unfit based on the fact of their demonstrated gross negligence and horrible poor judgement. At a minimum, their other child should be protected by revoking this man's concealed carry permit.

A healthy society needs to look out for the safety of children, and act decisively to protect children subject to negligent parenting that places children at risk. For instance, neighbors have a duty to speak up when they see child abuse. And, laws punishing negligent parenting act as a deterrent to other unfit parents.

This was not an accident. It is completely outrageous that it is perfectly legal in Washington State to leave a loaded handgun within reach of a 3 year old. Worse, defining this as 'an accident' instead of 'firearm negligence' means that this man can continue to concealed carry handguns in my neighborhood? Sorry, I object. People who have demonstrated negligent firearm use should have their "right" to carry in public revoked.

[hokiefan]

A six year old is responsible for the bullet?

I think you ought to re think that one.

You are correct. In my mind, I was holding responsible the owner who hid the loaded gun. But that isn't what the words said. Hate it when that happens.

Bobby

[Dave Wright]

...this man can continue to concealed carry handguns in my neighborhood? Sorry, I object.....

But Salty, you live in Florida, he lives in Washington state, 2700 miles away.

[SaltyBoatr]

But Salty, you live in Florida, he lives in Washington state, 2700 miles away.

It is also highly offensive that you make a joke to divert attention from child abuse. Blind advocacy for loose gun laws kills children. Man up and admit that. Gunners are willing to accept more dead children so they can play with their guns in their doomsday survival camp clubs. Man up and admit that.

[George Jung]

*sigh*

So we can look forward to a continued stream of anti-gun threads from 'saltyboatr'?

You are a wonderful addition to the bilge.

[SaltyBoatr]

*sigh*

So we can look forward to a continued stream of anti-gun threads from 'saltyboatr'?

You are a wonderful addition to the bilge.

And, name calling and sarcasm to divert attention.

Does it help your conscience to call me "anti-gun"? What is anti-gun about wanting a reasonable gun regulation, "keep loaded handguns out of reach of children". That is a perfectly reasonable law, and you 'slippery slope' it all the way to "anti-gun". No, it is not anti-gun to want reasonable regulation of guns.

This is a case of severe child abuse, and you attack me instead? Outrageous.

[Tall Boy]

Gunners are willing to accept more dead children so they can play with their guns in their doomsday survival camp clubs. Man up and admit that.

It's comments like that, that make you sound like a complete moron.......

[George Jung]

Outrageous? More like tedious. Look at the 'offerings' by you in the Bilge. Tedious it is. But as TallBoy points out, you are the complete man...

[SaltyBoatr]

It's comments like that, that make you sound like a complete moron.......

Excuse me?

Lax gun laws are not accidents. People (apparently like you) write letters to congressmen demanding lax gun laws. Own up to the consequences of lax gun laws. Dead children. Don't be a coward and evade the consequences of the politics of lax gun laws.

It would be manly to say, yes unfortunate things like the death of this child happen, but it is worthwhile for a greater freedom. People might disagree, but that would be an honorable disagreement.

Instead gunners dodge, evade, and attack the messenger. Look in the mirror, that is a cowardly behavior. Man up and accept consequences of your politics.

[Willin']

I've said it before, though you may not have picked up on it... many convenience stores have signs up banning guns on the premises. these are meant to comply with the law which states to permit holders that if that sign is there, it trumps their concealed carry permit... look for your self as you enter businesses... you'll see those signs every day. They are a sort of legal oubliette

And you know this for a fact in this instance? BTW, I didn't pick up on it because your rabid pro guns at any cost stance has reduced your voice to white noise.

[JimD]

... Gunners are willing to accept more dead children so they can play with their guns in their doomsday survival camp clubs...

Now let's be fair. Lots of them are squirrelly loners who don't belong to clubs.

[George Jung]

I don't believe Phillip made that claim... but nice try. Fact is, most of the details on this incident appear to be unknown. Anyone hearing anything different? But continuing to harp on this issue... yeah, we're going to change a lot of minds on guncontrol/registration/whatever your agenda might be, with a steady stream of threads such as this.

Talk about white noise...

[S.V. Airlie]

Well, Salty.. I gave you the regs for Washington. You posted about one not being strict enough and that was it. You were upset with the number of firearms violations over three years out of five..the only one. I pointed out with a list about what violations could happen with any type of firearm including shotguns.The regulation should make it clear what kind of firearm not a general type of firearm violation in the regs.and that could be changed. I honestly don't know what you can add. I've agreed with Brad/Brian's idea (get them confused sometimes) about arresting the parents but that is it.regulating the industry in the US; a spit into the wind. How many foreign made handguns do you think there are over here?This has been going on and on and on like the everready bunny. You are just not going far with this really. And I DON'T own a gun.

[SaltyBoatr]

many convenience stores have signs up banning guns on the premises. ...They are a sort of legal oubliette

This too is highly duplicitous and offensive. Phillips advocacy for guns trumps the property rights of business owners determining the rules on their own property. Phillip apparently has a grudge against the private property rights of peoples sovereignty to ban his guns on their own property. Phillips values are relative, his personal gun "rights" begrudges other people's property rights.

[SaltyBoatr]

It's pro the right of self defense.

Delusional. A law against storing loaded guns within the reach of children does nothing against a right of self defense.

[Willin']

It's pro the right of self defense. Before the racist gun control debate came to be it was about edged weapons. Read your history. Only the tool has changed. Those who want to take away your natural rights to self defense remain the same. I don't understand people with such control issues.

In this instance, the father is welcome to balance his right to self defense against the loss of his child's life due to his own neglect. His call. Not mine nor yours.

BTW, I don't recall a massive national debate over weapons control drummed up as a result of a mass knife or sword murder, nor as a result of a childs death because a man hid his knife under the seat of his car. I guess I missed those lessons in history.

You can defend yourself with whatever weapons you chose, but don't be surprised at the lack of sympathy you encounter when another 'accident' occurs.

[S.V. Airlie]

Read about the UK and knives/murder.As there are no guns there knives and clubs have become the alternatives.

[JimD]

I hope the father faces criminal charges so he can balance his right to self defense with jail time.

[George Jung]

What would you charge him with? "My son just shot himself with my gun because I had a senior-moment, so you should jail me to teach me a lesson'?

That's work.

[JimD]

What would you charge him with? "My son just shot himself with my gun because I had a senior-moment, so you should jail me to teach me a lesson'?

That's work.

Close enough. If its proven he broke a law causing death. Jail is meant to teach the criminally reckless a lesson.