Adirondack Guideboat Speed, Stability, General Use Usefulness

[potomac]

In another thread, an OP asked about fast rowboat designs. A few posters offered the Adirondack Guideboat as a possibility and the OP seemed interested, but was also looking hard at two other designs. In an effort to not completely set the other thread adrift, I am writing here. General consensus seems to be that the A.G. is one of the fastest row-only designs out there, an assertion backed up by recent race results. I am aware that the A.G. was designed to be light, easy to portage, and capable of carrying a load for use by fisherman and hunters. It is quite pretty to my eye and sounds like a fine design, but I know there is no free lunch in the boating world, so I am curious about this boat's stability. Will it suffer the movements of a child or the leaning of a fisherman hauling a fish or is she as tender as her canoe-ish lines would suggest? How would this design compare in general usefulness, (read family use, fishing, etc.), to a Whitehall or Clint Chase's Drake? Thanks. -Aaron

[Thad]

A friend of mine told of watching the Hull Snow Row a few years ago, seeing an AG head out among the Boston Harbor islands in the choppy Winter sea, worried. The AG came back winning first place in it's class, no problem. Says something to your questions.

[maraíocht]

Will it suffer the movements of a child or the leaning of a fisherman hauling a fish or is she as tender as her canoe-ish lines would suggest? How would this design compare in general usefulness, (read family use, fishing, etc.), to a Whitehall or Clint Chase's Drake? Thanks. -Aaron

I take my kids out (now almost 10 and almost 7) frequently in most conditions and they can lean over the side, change places in the boat and all that without a problem--though dad does prefer to have some notice before they do so. Now, don't get me wrong, the first time they did that it scared all kinds of stuff out of me! But now, I realise that you can lay a guideboat over very far before she'll go over. I've yet to capsize mine but I've deliberately had her over to the side with the gunwale under water and it seems she just firms up there--kind of neat. I've paddled her like that, with the gunwale on the water, kneeling the center seat, as you might in a canoe to make it easier to turn. Check out:

http://www.redcanoes.ca/becky/canoe/solopaddling.html

for a wonderful video illustration of this.

In calm conditions (wind-rippled water, small waves) I can stand up in my guideboat. Again, it seems to help to lay her over on her side a bit when doing so.

I can't compare it to Clint's Drake (lovely boat!) but I can compare it to a Whitehall. Initial stability is higher in a whitehall, but the whitehall is slower with the same rower (me) and feels heavier. Now, I've not had a whitehall out in rough conditions, but in wakes and the like, I prefer the feel of the guideboat. You sit lower in it, like you would in a kayak, so your center of mass is much lower.

It took a little while, but I'm really comfortable out in most conditions, even when my son (7) looks outside at the trees swaying in the breeze and says, "It looks windy dad. Let's go out in the boat and find some waves!"

Two biggest drawbacks for me: in most conditions, you really can't stand up and stretch when you've been rowing for hours; the sheer line, beautiful though it is, is such that, if car-topping, you'll probably want to modify your roof rack so you can see more than inside the end of the boat

Hope this helps!


lyle

[W Grabow]

Lyle has it nailed. The underwater shape can be compared to a kayak. You sit low for good ultimate stability. It is dry because it bobs over waves instead of plowing through. I modified the sheer on mine; not as pretty, but it saves weight, windage, and cartops much better.

[JohnC]

I take my kids out (now almost 10 and almost 7) frequently in most conditions and they can lean over the side, change places in the boat and all that without a problem--though dad does prefer to have some notice before they do so. Now, don't get me wrong, the first time they did that it scared all kinds of stuff out of me! But now, I realise that you can lay a guideboat over very far before she'll go over. I've yet to capsize mine but I've deliberately had her over to the side with the gunwale under water and it seems she just firms up there--kind of neat. I've paddled her like that, with the gunwale on the water, kneeling the center seat, as you might in a canoe to make it easier to turn. Check out:

http://www.redcanoes.ca/becky/canoe/solopaddling.html

for a wonderful video illustration of this.

In calm conditions (wind-rippled water, small waves) I can stand up in my guideboat. Again, it seems to help to lay her over on her side a bit when doing so.

I can't compare it to Clint's Drake (lovely boat!) but I can compare it to a Whitehall. Initial stability is higher in a whitehall, but the whitehall is slower with the same rower (me) and feels heavier. Now, I've not had a whitehall out in rough conditions, but in wakes and the like, I prefer the feel of the guideboat. You sit lower in it, like you would in a kayak, so your center of mass is much lower.

It took a little while, but I'm really comfortable out in most conditions, even when my son (7) looks outside at the trees swaying in the breeze and says, "It looks windy dad. Let's go out in the boat and find some waves!"

Two biggest drawbacks for me: in most conditions, you really can't stand up and stretch when you've been rowing for hours; the sheer line, beautiful though it is, is such that, if car-topping, you'll probably want to modify your roof rack so you can see more than inside the end of the boat

Hope this helps!


lyle

Lyle,
Thanks for this and your answer on the other thread. I want to use my boat in very similar conditions with children the same age so your information is very relevant to me. I had thought of stretching to 17' but not as far as the 19' you are thinking of. But when you get to 17' and widen it a bit you have the herreshoff/Gardner 17' which is another boat I'm keen on.
If you want a longer boat have you considered a St Lawrence river skiff?
I've rowed this boat and it's really nice. (another one I'd like to build)
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/08/...lasp/index.htm
Is your guideboat Grant's Virginia as described in John Michne's book and if so do you have a rough idea of the build time ?


John

[Tom Hunter]

I'm partial to dories and own one, but the guideboat has them beat on almost all points. Dories carry a lot of stuff better, but when I say a lot, I really mean too much. We once put 9 people into my 18' for a lark, I think a guideboat could take 6 or 7 before rolling over or swamping. Guideboats are lightly built, so you have to be a bit more carful about crashing into things than some of the heavier, slower boats.

I used to race, and the only time I caught a similar length guideboat with a similar rower was in a following sea, the tombstone stern gave the dory much better surfing charachteristics.

I was in the race Thad mentions, I had to stop and bail twice because I was shipping water punching through the waves. Paul Neil won in a guideboat, with a much better time than I had. 20+knts of wind, steep 3' chop coming out of the Wier river.

[Erik le Rouge]

Found this on the web: http://www.guideboat.ca/16ft_guideboat.html

[maraíocht]

Lyle,
Thanks for this and your answer on the other thread. I want to use my boat in very similar conditions with children the same age so your information is very relevant to me. I had thought of stretching to 17' but not as far as the 19' you are thinking of. But when you get to 17' and widen it a bit you have the herreshoff/Gardner 17' which is another boat I'm keen on.
If you want a longer boat have you considered a St Lawrence river skiff?
I've rowed this boat and it's really nice. (another one I'd like to build)
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/08/...lasp/index.htm
Is your guideboat Grant's Virginia as described in John Michne's book and if so do you have a rough idea of the build time ?


John

Hi John,

Yes, I've considered a St. Lawrence river skiff and, if I could find a good set of plans, I'd be really tempted (though I would build it as a rowing-only boat); I have Gardner's book with the St. Lawrence lines drawings in it, but the reproduction is dodgy enough that I can't quite read all the numeric values (couldn't possibly be my eyes!). Expanding a guideboat to 18-19 feet would result in a wider bottom board, of course, but not as much as the Herreshoff/Gardner 17', if I've read the offsets correctly. In the H/G the inside width at the bottom is ~15-16" and 18' guideboats were typically in the 10"-12" range according to the Durant book; I presume, all else being equal, the narrower boat would be a faster boat (?). Also, I'm really sold on the lower placement of the seat in the guideboat as this is, I think, one of the keys to its rough water handling qualities.

My current guideboat is from an adirondack guideboat company kit (http://www.adirondack-guide-boat.com ). It was the first boat I'd ever built--it was a "mental health" project following my wife's death--and with the help of my two kids took about 6 months of very part-time work, self-teaching as I went along. Lovely boat, really. Here's a link to just a couple of pics:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/1...73411496609841

Cheers,

lyle

[JohnC]

Hi John,

Yes, I've considered a St. Lawrence river skiff and, if I could find a good set of plans, I'd be really tempted (though I would build it as a rowing-only boat); I have Gardner's book with the St. Lawrence lines drawings in it, but the reproduction is dodgy enough that I can't quite read all the numeric values (couldn't possibly be my eyes!). Expanding a guideboat to 18-19 feet would result in a wider bottom board, of course, but not as much as the Herreshoff/Gardner 17', if I've read the offsets correctly. In the H/G the inside width at the bottom is ~15-16" and 18' guideboats were typically in the 10"-12" range according to the Durant book; I presume, all else being equal, the narrower boat would be a faster boat (?). Also, I'm really sold on the lower placement of the seat in the guideboat as this is, I think, one of the keys to its rough water handling qualities.


lyle

Lyle,
Mystic Seaport has plans for several St Lawrence River Skiffs. There is a brief outline of the plans available in this book -
http://www.woodenboatstore.com/87-Bo...tinfo/300-553/
My friends one here is the Bain model. He rates it very highly but has also rowed a guideboat and wants one of those also, I think because they are light enough to cartop where the skiff isn't and the guideboat is faster.
You used to be able to get the plans from the Antique Boat Museum but they seemed to have closed their store which is a shame as they charged a lot less for the same plans.
I think Andrew Steever surveyed a few skiffs and gave the plans to Mystic and the Antique boat Museum.
Clint Chase is offering mold kits for another SLRS - scroll down
http://www.clintchaseboatbuilder.com/newboats.html
Speaking of Andrew Steever if you haven't read his book 'Oars for Pleasure Rowing ' it's well worth it.
http://www.amazon.com/Oars-Pleasure-.../dp/091337265X
I hear the Herreshoff/Gardner has tracking problems and needs a skeg. I take it there is not that problem with the guideboat as nobody seems to complain about it ?
I would pick the guideboat as the faster of the two.
I also wondered whether the sharp forefoot was a handful in following seas ? Does it want to broach when surfing ?
Yours is a sad reason to need to build a boat but it looks like you've had happy times with it. It's a beautiful boat.


John

[maraíocht]

Hi John,

Thanks for the links; I'll be looking into those directly.

I

hear the Herreshoff/Gardner has tracking problems and needs a skeg. I take it there is not that problem with the guideboat as nobody seems to complain about it ?

Correct: the guideboat tracks nicely.

I also wondered whether the sharp forefoot was a handful in following seas ? Does it want to broach when surfing ?

Hasn't been a problem so far and I've beach-landed her in a fun surf: sitting in the bow seat to raise the stern high, propelling and steering with a paddle, and laugh the whole way in

Yours is a sad reason to need to build a boat but it looks like you've had happy times with it. It's a beautiful boat.

Ah, well, that's Life, eh? I've since re-married, the kids are doing wonderfully, and I'm glad I didn't end up with an ugly boat

lyle

[potomac]

Anybody care to comment on plans they have used? Looks like most of the builds I've seen are strippers- any alternatives out there? -Aaron

[Songololo]

Here are two lovely boats that have been made by Grapeviewpoint Boatworks.

A 16' Rangeley Lake Boat:



and a 21' St Lawrence River Skiff:

[maraíocht]

Wow, those are really pretty boats. I need to look more closely at the St. Lawrence River skiff. . .

lyle

[Ian McColgin]

The one AG I've played in had stability adequate to stand up and cast a fly.

The St Lawrence River Skiffs have the neatest approach to sailing - no rudder. You steer by sail trim and weight distribution. Tacking takes courage since you must trim the sail hard while hurling yourself into the bow and then ease the sheet after passing the eye of the wind and getting back astern.

[Ben Fuller]

Like all boats that rely on stems instead of a keel or skeg for directional stability Guideboats, Rangeley boats, St. Lawrence skiffs, and the Gardner LFH must be trimmed stern down to track. They do not forgive bad trim. The original LFH/Gardner boat was set up to row one way with a single rower the other way if you had a passenger and one rower or two rowers. You do that and it works great. People that don't trim it right complain that they don't track well, says he curmudgeonly.

Annie is the small St Lawrence skiff that Andy measured and whose plans are at Mystic and the Antique Boat museum. Bobby was the bigger sailing skiff.

Ben

[Andy Mcconkey]

I row a Joel White Shearwater which is considered a fairly fast pulling boat. Last fall I rowed alongside a fiberglass Guideboat for 7 miles. We both had gear aboard for a multi-day trip. In order to stay close I was forced to ask short questions that demanded a long answer. The Guideboats are super slippery.

[asloth]

Aaron, I recently built and am now learning to trim and row a LFH17. There is some building info of my version of LFH17 here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Michalak/message/24005. And there are a few pics of the build on the same site's Photos under LFH 17. And like Ben says above, trim is very important.

My skin on frame version weighs around 60 lbs. somewhat under the designed 100 lbs. But then I"m likely 40 lbs. heavier that the usual rower.

Hope this gives you another idea.

Steve C.

[MN Dave]

General consensus seems to be that the A.G. is one of the fastest row-only designs out there, an assertion backed up by recent race results.
Will it suffer the movements of a child or the leaning of a fisherman hauling a fish or is she as tender as her canoe-ish lines would suggest? . -Aaron

I built a stripper to the Rushton Saranac Laker lines in Manley's book on Rushton in 1975. At the Mystic Small Craft Workshop one year a group of guys did an impromptu round robin race with all of the fast single oar on gunnel boats and said that the A.G. was the fastest boat there. The question is which other boats were there that year. I think there have been some faster wherries, but nothing that can carry the same load was as fast with one rower.

After 4 kids and 37 years, no problem with the children. I always feel much safer in the A.G. than a canoe. Can't say much about lading fish. (Darn it.) I have never taken any water over the gunnel except when someone jumped out over the side to swim. You need to go over the ends. With a passenger, I feel it's time to come in when the waves hit your elbows as you row. I have crammed 3 guys (600+ lb) and camping gear and crossed Wood Pond up in Jackman, ME on a windy day with a pretty good chop.

The initial stability is low, but it stiffens up quickly and is actually difficult to swamp while seated. I took the A.G. out on a pond and deliberately swamped it, on the third attempt. It is not easy to swamp. Or empty. One time some slob in a huge plastic bottle boat did a U turn around me and the dragon at the S. end of Merritt Island and hit me with 3' of wake from everywhere at once. A bit rude, but the A.G. took it in stride. Glad I was alone. It is not a good surf boat.

Andy Steever had a really nice stripper, Sister Suzie, a modified St. Lawrence skiff. Hard to say which is faster, but Sister Suzie had the skiff stem profile and was easier to turn. Andy did a nice job on the Annie's lines. I drew some of Annie lines (not Sister Suzie) on top of the Saranac Laker lines. The Cole, Grant and Rushton A.G. lines are very similar midships, and the Grant varies more toward the ends. Annie has firmer bilges, so it has a little more volume, but is probably not as fast, so I restored the A.G. and put off building Annie. If I had Suzie's lines, I probably would have built her instead.

[kbowen]

In another thread, an OP asked about fast rowboat designs.

I am partial to a Rangley Lake boats especially the longer versions (17') unless you need to portage it. For the stability issue you raised, the floor is quite flat and the boat has a lot of initial stability. They were intended for both deep water trolling and stand-up fly fishing and had to be able to take the relatively 'big-water' conditions on Rangley lake. FWIW, the St. Lawrence skiff was steered during sailing by weight shifts and when you look at the lines, they are not only fine at the waterline, but also further up, which, I think, made them intentionally more sensitive to fore-aft trim. The Rangleys are fine at the waterline but flare considerably wider by the time you get to the deck / breasthook, and thus have a crazy amount of buoyancy in the ends to resist becoming a submarine if they encounter a big boat wake. one guy's opinion.....

[potomac]

Those Rangley's sure are pretty. Other than the beauty and romance of rowing, I like the idea of car-topping a boat for quick in the water and out again. I take a four-year-old with me most places I go and single-handed trailering can be difficult with the power boat. I live just four blocks from a good ramp and would love to drop a couple crab pots in the water, but they need to be checked fairly regularly, and committing to putting the power boat in the water every day (or even every other day) is daunting. A boat that I could take out, check the pots, and come back in an hour and a half round-trip would be really nice. I have a couple sit-on-top kayaks, but they are maxed out with the boy and me and real slugs in the water with that much weight. Stability's a bit tough too, when hauling pots or even a fish.

[Chris Woodward]

Adirondack guideboats are rated as; tippy, cranky, or steady, depending on the particular patterns used. first criteria was weight, they were the orginal ultralight carry boats. However they will take a tremendous load compared to their weight. I have been out in a November gale on a shallow lake with 3-4' chop and had no problem. In fact it is the closest to white water running that one would want in a guideboat.(no rocks). A total blast, and total security and seaworthyness. 8' rollers with 15-20' between peaks are a lot easier to manuver in. However if I was rowing in the ocean or Great lakes with 2 kids and a dog, I would want a more stable platform under me. This boat was built to do a specific task in a specfic type of water and excells at that. Meant for the flat waters of the Adirondacks. Check out this link for history of Adirondack guideboats. www.guideboats.com

[kbowen]

I like the idea of car-topping a boat for quick in the water and out again. .

It sounds like the Adirondac or some lightweight plywood chine boat is what you are after. Re: cartopping, you might consider one of those rear pivot gizmos that used to be more common. It was a strut up off your rear bumper or trailer hitch with a pivoting bracket to hold the transom or rear thwart of your boat. You would pick up the bow of the boat off of a front roof rack and walk around 180 degrees behind the car and put the bow on the ground. Then you could get under the boat to pick it up by the center thwart canoe-style on your sholders and lift the other end off the rotating bracket and walk the thing to the water. Have fun!

[Ben Fuller]

For cartopping most people like to keep the weight at no more than twice what they can lift to roof rack height. That said. there are now rear extensions and side extensions made for roof racks that let you get one end up. Most people find that no more that 50 -60 lbs a reasonable carry. Rowboats other than guide boats are hard for solo carries as they are wide and need to be fitted with a yoke. My practice cartopping rowboats (other than a guideboat) is to do it upright, and use a dolly or other set of wheels to get to the water.

If you have a pickup or SUV you can consider loading a row boat in the back. You can get extensions that go into a receiver hitch. I have seen pretty long boats carried that way.

[potomac]

asloth- I guess you have to be a member to see photos? Would you care to post any here? I'd love to see them. The technique sounds a lot like dgentry's sof framing. Thanks- Aaron

[asloth]

Aaron, posting pics here is to difficult for an O F like me.

My LFH17 was built using the same techniques as Dave Gentry uses for his SoF's. And a lot of kayaks also. You can see pics of the LFH17 on the Michalak forum under LHF17 and a brief discussion of the build on the same site. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Michalak/message/24005

Steve C.

[JohnC]

[QUOTE=Ben Fuller;3356124]For cartopping most people like to keep the weight at no more than twice what they can lift to roof rack height.

This has been posted before but may not have been seen by all :
http://www.capefalconkayak.com/adirondackguideboat.html
For a cartoppable rowboat this would be hard to beat.
Brian clearly loves this boat and mentions it again here:
http://capefalconkayak.com/fall2011.html

John

[Charger]

Hey potomac, I built my Guide Boat using the Book, "Building an Adirondack Guide Boat" By John Michne & Michael Ollevett. http://www.amazon.com/Building-Adiro...6005287&sr=1-2 It is a very well written book and easy to follow. The boat that I built is a stripper but you can contact John and get a add on to plank it instead. Good luck, Lance

[potomac]

Thanks Charger. I have that book. The plans in the back look quite comprehensive. I think the Virginia's on my to do list. She's quite lovely. I also ordered Tom Hill's Champlain plans which are listed as a canoe with a rowing option, but I'd say it looks an awful lot like an AG. Any pictures of your build? What woods did you use? Plank thickness? Thanks- Aaron

[potomac]

Charger- I just noticed where you are from. Lovely neck of the woods. You built the perfect boat for it. I lived in Brooklyn for ten years and built a little cabin in Cortland county. I found a great deal of solace there, but I sure love the Adirondacks.

[Ben Fuller]

For any one interested in a traditional Guideboat it looks like we will have one donated to our ( Penobscot Marine Museum) biannual gala auction. It is probably a Hanmer, has the stripped decks, a 16 foot camp or church boat ( no carry yoke) in good shape.

[Charger]

Hey Potomac, My boat was made from Johns Book and is a stripper. It is made with Pine strips, Spruce laminated ribs, Pine Keel, Cherry,Mahogany & Hard Maple Decks,Hard Maple Gunwales, Straight Grain Pine Oars,& Maple Seats. If you go to www.adirondackbuilt.com and click on guide boat, you can see all the pictures of it. It took m 5 months to build and oh yeah, I am legally blind.

[Chris Woodward]

This guideboat weighs 70lbs. I have found this rig to be the easiest and
most stabile way to transport my boat other than a trailer.

[potomac]

You New York boys are representing. Charger and Chris- the boats are beautiful. Charger, I'm glad to hear about all the pine you used. It's one of two species I can easily get down here, (the other being fir), in clear lengths. And Charger- don't go showing off Mr. Five Months. Some of us take that long to make a pair of oars!

[potomac]

Hey Steve C (asloth), not sure if you are still out there, but I'd love to see pictures. Do I have to be a member of the Michalak forum? I had the exact same idea in mind. Do the Michalak plans specify molds that you could turn into frames? I worry about the placement of the chine stringers. I even want to try this with a sailboat.

[potomac]

I think this would be lovely on a wall, by the way.

[Charger]

Hey Potomac, Thanks for the compliments. I am retired that's why it took me only 5 months. I worked on it almost everyday some times for 10-14 hours.

[asloth]

potomac, Using Jim Michalak's LFH17 plans, I used his "forms" as frames and his ply chine locations as stringer placements. A change to the stem/stern pieces is needed to work for SoF.

I was only looking for a rowboat, which is what the LFH17 was designed for, so adapting to sail is something I know nothing about.

I also sent you a PM.

Steve C.

[Bill Perkins]

Those likeing the AG,but wanting a bit more stability for kids or for sail might look at the Delaware Ducker (Mine's 15ft. by 4 ft.). There are row only models and those designed to sail ;even the latter type are fast under oars . Chapelle notes a similarity between the Ducker and the Guide boat which I see in my own sailing Ducker (but don't insist on ).

Here's a link to a photo of the boat , hauled on a bed extender as Ben mentioned.The truck has a 6 ft. bed.

http://truckduck.shutterfly.com/pictures#n_5

[potomac]

That's a handsome boat, Bill. Is yours built from the CBMM plans? I suppose she could be built with a little less deck for a rowing version.

[Bill Perkins]

No this boat is built (in glass) from the "York " Ducker plans at Mystic.The rowing models I've seen don't have side decks and have a touch less beam. Mystic has plans for one of those also . I thought the CBMM boat looked very good too .

[Ben Fuller]

No this boat is built (in glass) from the "York " Ducker plans at Mystic.The rowing models I've seen don't have side decks and have a touch less beam. Mystic has plans for one of those also . I thought the CBMM boat looked very good too .

The York ducker has flatter floors than the Greenbrier model which are the two drawn by Dave Dillion. A bit lower sheerline amidships as well. A slightly better sailing model. The pure rowing models may have a fore deck and after deck but no sidedecks. Given the lack of thwarts, I suspect that the non side deck versions are a bit flexible. Mystic has one 69.98 which has lines. Also an interesting varient with a long foredeck which captures the daggerboard trunk. Looking at starting out after rail ( the eakins painting) there seems to have been evolution as that boat while a sailing boat has no side decks and a thwart structure to support dagger board trunk.

As far as speed rowing goes, solo the boat goes well, as well as others in this 15'/14' loa class. It will not stay with a guideboat which are generally a foot to a foot and a half longer on the waterline and 50 pounds lighter.

[Ben Fuller]

Those likeing the AG,but wanting a bit more stability for kids or for sail might look at the Delaware Ducker (Mine's 15ft. by 4 ft.). There are row only models and those designed to sail ;even the latter type are fast under oars . Chapelle notes a similarity between the Ducker and the Guide boat which I see in my own sailing Ducker (but don't insist on ).

http://truckduck.shutterfly.com/pictures#n_5

It is never advisable to take what Chapelle says as gospel unless there are hard facts. The only similarities between these boats are that they are double ended and have a plank keel. Guideboat is a sawn frame boat that evolved from a local transom sterned non portable boat ( see the Guidboat literature). The ducker is bent frame and portable only in a wagon.Given the dates of Eakins paintings and other information we are looking at a thriving small boat building industry along the Philadelphia waterfront using the most sophisticated small boat building methods of the day ( these shops were producing scores of boats for the shipbuilding industry.) Guideboat evolution is very different and later.

John Gardner's Green Machine is a marriage of guideboat building technique, with the LFH rowing boat in Common Sense of Yacht Design. John made it a double ender and gave it an apple bow treatment to help keep it drier. I know at least one that had a daggerboard trunk and a sailing rig added. It was adventurous sailing, but worked OK. I think it got cruised with two in the French canals in the 80s.

[Chris Woodward]

For any one interested in a traditional Guideboat it looks like we will have one donated to our ( Penobscot Marine Museum) biannual gala auction. It is probably a Hanmer, has the stripped decks, a 16 foot camp or church boat ( no carry yoke) in good shape.

Ben, I would like to see pictures if any are available.
www.guideboats.com

[Chris Woodward]

Guideboat is a sawn frame boat that evolved from a local transom sterned non portable boat

These early square sterned boats c.1840-1860 actually were considered light wieght 90-110 lbs for the day and were carried.
They lost the transom fairly quickly 1850-1870. Planking became thinner as the availability of mass produced small screws became easier.



www.guideboats.com

[Ben Fuller]

Ben, I would like to see pictures if any are available.
www.guideboats.com

Chris,

I sent you a private message about this posted to your web site. Should have pics on Monday.

Ben

[Barbinskate]

I'm a little late in the discussion here, but as a long-time guideboat user with children, I'd like to add a few points for future guideboat seekers. (And I do agree with most of the comments that previous folks made about its capabilities, stability, and performance in wind.)

I've taken the boat out on class one rivers, camp-cruising from Olympia to Port Townsend Washington, and in moving water dodging logs and debris. All of my trips have been with just me in the boat. In calmer water I have taken out two boys under twelve, two other adults, and occasionally one other adult. As the boys have grown, they've become more comfortable and understanding about how to move around in the boat and what can (fishing from the seat, dragging toy boats, splashing) and can't work (standing up, rocking).

As the boat gets more loaded, it gets more stable, but the freeboard goes down (yes, I know that sounds obvious, but it is an important consideration). So the speed and seaworthiness also shifts depending on the weight. I feel perfectly comfortable in small waves or boat wakes when alone. The more people in the boat, the more careful you need to be about shipping water and the passengers destabilizing things. I've done a capsize drill and found that I had to push the boat under to get it to fill with water. Getting it bailed out is a little more difficult though!

The boat's strengths are its flexibility to carry various loads/passengers, its light weight and portability, ability to handle waves, and the ease with which you can row it for long periods.

The boat's weaknesses include the low freeboard at the mid-point, it doesn't turn extremely quickly to avoid unforeseen dangers, and that you can't really move around much in it, which can be tiresome on a long trip.

I've been writing up some of my guideboat and other adventures at: http://terrapintales.wordpress.com

-Bruce