US soldier kills Afghan civilians in Kandahar.

[snudz]

A US soldier in Afghanistan has killed at least 16 civilians and wounded five after entering their homes in Kandahar province, senior local officials say.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17330205


This is really gonna stir things up. Not good!

[M. J. Notigan]

I've not read the account of this story as of yet, but after seeing the recent uproar over the burning of their religious books and the subsequent murders of our people over this, I would suggest we take anything these people say with a large grain of salt.

It seems like with the upcoming exodus of our people, that folks like Karzai are taking a hard line in order to better align himself with the return of the Taliban. Just my 2 cents.

Just a terrible waste of American lives, every one of our best and brightest. Not to mention others in our coalition. It's readily apparent the majority of Afghans are too afraid to fight for their freedoms and are willing to accept going back into the stone age. My real sympathies lie with our lost American men and women in this hell on earth......

Take Care,
Mike

[SamSam]

My word for the day will work nicely here.

[Steve McMahon]

Sad for the victims and their families.
Sad for the Soldier and his family and co workers.
Sad for those allied Soldiers and contractors left in the country to face the reaction that is sure to follow.

[BrianW]

Damn.

...and what Steve said.

[skuthorp]

Some coalition personnel are almost certain to die as a result, this soldier has done more to end the presence than any Taliban action. Will he stand trial in Afghanistan or will he be spirited out? It's an important decision in international terms that goes beyond Afghanistan. I note Afghani clerics are already calling for a trial of the Koran burners, empty rhetoric before this incident, but now?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-03-1...ilians/3882648

[skuthorp]

Damn.

...and what Steve said.

Keep safe Brian.

[Phillip Allen]

I'd like to know what the shooter was thinking?... it's what I'd ask him if I were to get the chance

[skuthorp]

I'd be shocked if all those soldiers are out of Afghanistan now , even the shooter from yesterday. We do not commonly turn our troops over to other countries to try for us.

That is part of the problem, in this case the crime was against Afghan civilians in Afghaniatan, and should be tried under Afghani law. If the reverse had occurred I'm sure the US would insist on a trial in the US.

[Phillip Allen]

That is part of the problem, in this case the crime was against Afghan civilians in Afghaniatan, and should be tried under Afghani law. If the reverse had occurred I'm sure the US would insist on a trial in the US.

I tend to agree but not without qualification... no stoning and no hanging from the bucket of a backhoe

[PeterSibley]

I'd be shocked if all those soldiers are out of Afghanistan now , even the shooter from yesterday. We do not commonly turn our troops over to other countries to try for us.

Maybe this a time to make an exception .

[PeterSibley]

You are probably right but "spiriting away" accused criminals is one of the huge resentments against the US military around the world . Every country with US troops has stories of US rapists and murderers quietly going home ...completely unaccountable to the victims or local law.

[PeterSibley]

Ya reckon? It just means no one trusts anything the US says .

[Chris Coose]

NPR reported that at the end of the day, they seemed to know less about what happened. Further questions as to whether there was a group of murderers involved and if it was limited to just one village.
What they did know was the **** was going to hit the fan come dawn in Afghanistan.

A good place to start on the subject of the truth in war is, there is none. Don't believe a GD'ed word of it, particularly if a cover-up is required.

[BrianW]

The guy, if not mentally incompetent, is a cold blooded killer. My first inclination is to hand him over to the Afghanistan authorities.

But that starts a trend down a slippery slope. Tough one.

[BrianW]

#1: How this guy got off the base?

It's no big deal. People leave the FOBs all the time. I've walked outside the gate, unarmed and unescorted, a couple times to meet vendors bringing us stuff. All the way past the US gate, the Afghan gate, out to the civilians waiting in any area known as the "cook off yard".

[LeeG]

Cost of doing business. Beats having them dragged thru the streets and set on fire.

You mean the cost of doing the war business is having military contractors in a war zone operating outside military control/protocols. The contractors in Falluja weren't US soldiers.

[Chris Coose]

At 0300? The US Army is one %^$#ed up unit if this is the case.

Trouble is, you are trying to make sense from useless information.

[BrianW]

At 0300? The US Army is one %^$#ed up unit if this is the case.

At a lot of FOBs, the military doesn't man the gates. The gates and towers are manned by contractors. They seem to do a good job, "highly vetted" is the term used, and probably wouldn't stop a US Army soldier leaving base unless directed.

Remember, the coalition rules the night.

[SaltyBoatr]

A US soldier in Afghanistan has killed at least 16 civilians and wounded five after entering their homes in Kandahar province, senior local officials say.

Does this mean that Afghanistan now has the right to invade the USA and kill hundreds of thousands of civilians and President Obama?

[skuthorp]

Let's wait for a bit more info here, if it is forthcoming.
Didn't one of the 9/11 conspirators end up being tried in the US? Would you have returned them to Saudi Arabia to be tried if some had survived?

[ahp]

We have worn out our welcome, if we ever had one in the first place. This was inevitable. Time to leave.

[skuthorp]

A US soldier, one Edward Leonski, was convicted of murder in Melbourne in 1942 and convicted by a military tribunal here. However his execution was carried out in Victoria by civilian authorities in a civilian prison.
http://ergo.slv.vic.gov.au/explore-h...-out-strangler

[M. J. Notigan]

I've not read the account of this story as of yet, but after seeing the recent uproar over the burning of their religious books and the subsequent murders of our people over this, I would suggest we take anything these people say with a large grain of salt.

It seems like with the upcoming exodus of our people, that folks like Karzai are taking a hard line in order to better align himself with the return of the Taliban. Just my 2 cents.

Just a terrible waste of American lives, every one of our best and brightest. Not to mention others in our coalition. It's readily apparent the majority of Afghans are too afraid to fight for their freedoms and are willing to accept going back into the stone age. My real sympathies lie with our lost American men and women in this hell on earth......

Take Care,
Mike

After watching the news this evening and learning what happened I am saddened for the people murdered, their families and friends. The sensitivities of our people towards the Afghans seems to have deteriorated in a most disturbing way in the past year.........how can our people not know how sensitive these peoples are towards their Koran? This is starting to look like the fall of Saigon in some respects. All of the good work accomplished by our brave men and women in uniform only to be seemingly undermined by insensitive acts like the burning of the Koran and now this..........

It appears this soldier has been at war for a long time and in my opinion, he snapped. I wish an honest discussion follows of how our government has used and abused the service of our soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan. Let the first politicrat and war planner send his son or daughter to serve 2, 3 4 tours in a war zone before he or she condemns our best and brightest to this lunacy. I want honest people to review how our Reservists and National Guardsmen were used in fighting these wars because of the simple fact that Reductions In Force and programs of their ilk have gutted our service branches of a properly manned and staffed military. All to satisfy Secretary Rumsfelds vision of a leaner, quick strike military.

I posted my above initial comments because I believe they come off as half cocked and insensitive. Having said that, I fully expect our soldiers to bear the brunt of the Afghans hatred toward us in the coming days and weeks. We cannot get our people out of that corrupt and lost hell hole soon enough.

Take Care,
Mike

[Steve McMahon]

A sad situation for sure. My OPINION / GUESS is the fellow probably has some neuro wires short out. One too many buddy's killed by a IED, a sense of hopelessness, etc... A failure of the command structure or a failure of humanity in general. ***** to try to operate in a theatre of war when the rules tie your hands and you see so much.

[LeeG]

try to operate in a theatre of war when the rules tie your hands .

rules against murder?

[PeterSibley]

The truth about a soldier who goes out at night shooting women and children ?

[Meli]

ooh ooh I know, it's a conspiracy. The perp been diagnosed with fatal illness anyway and so the taliban promised payment to his wife and kids if he'd do the deed to stir the pot.

It's the Talibans fault.

Tragic

[PeterSibley]

The why about it.

Something pushed him over the edge, or he's a dirt bag and something allowed that to take over, either way what he did , IF he did it, like we like to say here on WBF, ( some times , if the perp isn't a conservative , if he is he's considered guilty until proven innocent, and then even IF he is found not guilty he's still suspect) , is the question , although there's no 'good' answer , there is a reason, that's the why.

ETA: The truth will be hard to come by , everyone in the chain of command will have some skin to loose , IF what BrianW said is true about secruity on these FOB's , so getting the whole truth and nothing but the truth , well lets say that's not going to be easy.

We can be sure however that the military will look after is own, psychopath or not and that the people of Afghanistan will see no justice.

[skuthorp]

To recover any credibility in Afghanistan this man must at least be punished under Afghani law even if he is tried by a military court. But that will not happen unless a century at least of precedent is ignored. Some serving today will not come home alive as a consequence. That is almost certain, and the process of disengagement will be hastened even if for face and career saving purposes it is not announced as such.

[purri]

Note the rank of the perpetrator, certainly not a greenie.

Nil result for the oppressed. The law of US extra-territoriality and "special justice" prevails. My Lai and now Haditha and this latest show the contempt of the "world's police" for anyone but their own.

What a wank.

[snudz]

I'd be interested to know how recent the "breakdown" mentioned in the article was. If it's occurred during the current tour then why hasn't he already been shipped home for therapy and assessment?

Brian, I'd reassess your lonesome ventures off base for a while if I were you.

[skuthorp]

Married with two kids?, good grief. There's nothing but pain all round for this one.

[Steve McMahon]

rules against murder?

No. I am referring to the fantasy we have that we can put soldiers on the ground in a foriegn culture, operate in a "civilized" manner (by our standards, not their's), and proceed to win the hearts and minds of the people we are "saving". Couple this with the military operating under a Management model instead of a strong Leadership model and you are setting up for disaster. Of course you are going to have the occasional soldier go off the deep end.

If "we" don't have the stomach to wage war properly, (and "we" don't IMO), we shouldn't be there in the first place.

[PeterSibley]

Fantasy is the word, but a very dark fantasy . Lots of blood, guns and greed .

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Out of interest I Googled "crimes committed in Britain during WW2" and came up with this:

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWcrime.htm

Interestingly, whilst many US servicemen were tried by US courts under the British United States of America (Visiting Forces) Act, 1942, not all were - quite a few were tried by British courts and indeed in att least one caseexecuted by them.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWhultenK.htm

although the fact that Hulten was a deserter may have been material

[LeeG]

No. I am referring to the fantasy we have that we can put soldiers on the ground in a foriegn culture, operate in a "civilized" manner (by our standards, not their's), and proceed to win the hearts and minds of the people we are "saving". Couple this with the military operating under a Management model instead of a strong Leadership model and you are setting up for disaster. Of course you are going to have the occasional soldier go off the deep end.

If "we" don't have the stomach to wage war properly, (and "we" don't IMO), we shouldn't be there in the first place.

What is unclear in your statement is what waging war "properly" consists of. The Neocon doctrines of pre-emptive war justified waging war against those associated with the enemy. So the enemy wasn't just Al Qaeda but the Taliban and gov't of Afghanistan, militants in western regions of Pakistan, Iraq, the axis of evil and the Pakistani taxi driver here in the US.

Once we got into the role of putting up new gov'ts so as to not leave a worse situation and power vacuum counterinsurgency doctrine as espoused by Patreaus was implemented. Self delusion that the "the surge" succeeded in Iraq would then be applicable in Afghanistan.

I'm not sure where in this mess "waging war properly" would be reflected in reality. $.02 it would start with confining ones target list to Al Qaeda using counterterrorism, because that was the enemy, terrorists. Once the enemy was opened up to justify large scale military operations the goals were created to justify the means and the goals were unattainable.

[Steve McMahon]

What is unclear in your statement is what waging war "properly" consists of. The Neocon doctrines of pre-emptive war justified waging war against those associated with the enemy. So the enemy wasn't just Al Qaeda but the Taliban and gov't of Afghanistan, militants in western regions of Pakistan, Iraq, the axis of evil and the Pakistani taxi driver here in the US.

Once we got into the role of putting up new gov'ts so as to not leave a worse situation and power vacuum counterinsurgency doctrine as espoused by Patreaus was implemented. Self delusion that the "the surge" succeeded in Iraq would then be applicable in Afghanistan.

I'm not sure where in this mess "waging war properly" would be reflected in reality. $.02 it would start with confining ones target list to Al Qaeda using counterterrorism, because that was the enemy, terrorists. Once the enemy was opened up to justify large scale military operations the goals were created to justify the means and the goals were unattainable.

War:
Pound the crap out of them until they surrender. Use air and sea power as much as possible. Try to concentrate on military targets and minimize collateral damage but don't be hung up on it. Innocent people will die horrible deaths. A dirty business that should only be undertaken as a last resort.

[LeeG]

War:
Pound the crap out of them until they surrender. Use air and sea power as much as possible. Try to concentrate on military targets and minimize collateral damage but don't be hung up on it. Innocent people will die horrible deaths. A dirty business that should only be undertaken as a last resort.

Who are "they"? Al Qaeda, Taliban, Iraq, Iran, Syria, religious fundamentalists?
Then after "they" surrender then what?

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

It would really be very much better if this man were tried in an Afghan court. If this is not done, much of the good work done by so many servicemen and others from many countries over the past ten years will be undone.

As I noted above, there are precedents for US servicemen who commit crimes being tried locally - and executed.

[Steve McMahon]

Who are "they"? Al Qaeda, Taliban, Iraq, Iran, Syria, religious fundamentalists?
Then after "they" surrender then what?

"They" are whomever one decides to wage war against.

After they surrender the countries that waged the war either divide the spoils, help the survivors rebuild, or a combination of these.

WWII would be a good example.

( I am NOT suggesting that we should wage war against anyone, just that if we do decide to do it we should at least do it right instead of squandering so many lives and so much money for no apparent gain.)

[Concordia...41]

Damn.

...and what Steve said.

+100

[Osborne Russell]

If "we" don't have the stomach to wage war properly, (and "we" don't IMO), we shouldn't be there in the first place.

I agree but wouldn't you say that waging war properly begins with the decision to wage war? How critically was the question taken up: is war the right response?

Most wars are kind of slid into. Most of the principal actors are trying to avoid going full tilt; maybe all of them, and nevertheless there is war.

So we need to not only have the stomach for war to wage war, we have to have it ahead of time, when we start down a path that is likely to lead to war. And as you say, full-tilt war, not the custom-tailored war the advisors always promise.

[Osborne Russell]

It would really be very much better if this man were tried in an Afghan court. If this is not done, much of the good work done by so many servicemen and others from many countries over the past ten years will be undone.

A very important part of waging war properly, eh?

[Steve McMahon]

I agree but wouldn't you say that waging war properly begins with the decision to wage war? How critically was the question taken up: is war the right response?

Most wars are kind of slid into. Most of the principal actors are trying to avoid going full tilt; maybe all of them, and nevertheless there is war.

So we need to not only have the stomach for war to wage war, we have to have it ahead of time, when we start down a path that is likely to lead to war. And as you say, full-tilt war, not the custom-tailored war the advisors always promise.

I agree 100%.
I personally feel war was not the right response for Iraq or Afghanistan.

That being said, the question is how do you react against terrorist groups. IMO we should assert air supiriority where we suspect them to be operating, and limit our response to airstrikes. The only "boots on the ground" should be our spies gathering intel. There would be collateral damage but that's life.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

A very important part of waging war properly, eh?

Yes. This is the link I was trying to post:

http://www.napoleon-series.org/milit...ceinquiry.html

[SaltyBoatr]

I am not following the logic in the discussion of a 'proper' way to wage war because the frame of reference is one sided. If we could wage just war on the Taliban for supporting an attack on civilians 9/11/2011, would not that logic apply in reverse for US support of a massacre of civilians in Kandahar last Saturday? Hence, it would be just for a Afghan to come here and wage war in the USA?

What would be the difference in logic when viewed from an Afghan perspective?

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

None, that I can see.

The link I posted above coveres Wellington's enforcement of draconian discipline on his own men during the Napoleonic wars; this undoubtedly swung the hearts and minds of the Portuguese and the Spanish and finally even the French towards the British and away from Napoleon.

I further suggest that the answer to the question once posed in right wing US circles - "Who lost China?" is answered not with a who but with a what and the thing that lost China was extraterritoriality.

[JimD]

... My OPINION / GUESS is the fellow probably has some neuro wires short out...

Its too bad soldiers couldn't be counted on to obey orders. Or maybe he's psychotic and thought he was obeying an order.

[Steve McMahon]

Its too bad soldiers couldn't be counted on to obey orders. Or maybe he's psychotic and thought he was obeying an order.

I think the chances of having someone mentally breakdown go up considerably when they are continuously exposed to a situation that they feel is hopeless and (they feel)that their sacrifice is futile. The root cause failure is at the political level IMO.