RodB and others familiar with Catholic history --- Help!!!

[ChaseKenyon]

I have referred in the past to the lack of Papal Court denouncement of the NAZI death camps and the annihilation of the Jews. It bothered me a bit since I could not readily find it to contribute to the thread. As this is off the original thread topic a bit I am starting a new thread.

I was doing research on the idiotic statements about gov't and religion Mr. Santorum has contributed to the media about his real beliefs.

Then I found this........ page which goes into great depth about the "gifts" Hitler gave to the RCC in exchange for their support. It reads to me like the biggest winning megabucks ticket ever given to them.

I got lost after about four pages. I meant to take and post some C&P sections to illustrate the above situation about how Hitler was able to buy if not full support at least silence from the RCC.

http://www.catholicarrogance.org/Cat...Concordat.html
I realize it is a big task. Burt for those of you who are at least a bit evangelical about the RCC

Can you go through this and break it down into parts and time line for us RCC dummies?

It does not look very good as a piece of history of the RCC to me.

Maybe that is true and it was a low point they would like to never have mentioned.

If so fine hope they never do that again. If that is true then can you explain to me what idiocy, to my mind, led them to do do this?

[Paul Pless]

Then I found this........ page which goes into great depth about the "gifts" Hitler gave to the RCC in exchange for their support. It reads to me like the biggest winning megabucks ticket ever given to them.

Bigger than the Edictum Mediolanense?

for those of you who are at least a bit evangelical about the RCC

An evangelical Roman Catholic? Have you any idea how rare this combination is in truth?

Can you go through this and break it down into parts and time line for us RCC dummies?

Most slick on your part. I somehow doubt Mister F will be along in any real hurry to oblige you. Perhaps Emily though. . .

[ChaseKenyon]

I did find this however.

Mit brennender Sorge

Main article: Mit brennender Sorge
The Catholic Church officially condemned the Nazi theory of racism in Germany in 1937 with the Encyclical "Mit Brennender Sorge", signed by Pope Pius XI. Smuggled into Germany to avoid prior censorship and read from the pulpits of all German Catholic churches, it condemned Nazi ideology ^[32] as "insane and arrogant". It denounced the Nazi myth of "blood and soil", decried neopaganism of Nazism, its war of annihilation against the Church, and even described the Führer himself as a 'mad prophet possessed of repulsive arrogance.'
Although there is some difference of opinion as to the impact of the document, it is generally recognized as the "first ... official public document to criticize Nazism". ^[35]
[edit]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholi...d_Nazi_Germany

[ChaseKenyon]

I am more than willing to give the members of the RCC a stage to speak from.

I do however expect that they will use it and only use it for presentations that are at the erudition level of a TED presentation.

CHK/EWD

[Canoeyawl]

"God, who directs the destiny of nations and controls the hearts of Kings, has given us Ante Pavelic and moved the leader of a friendly and allied people, Adolf Hitler, to use his victorious troops to disperse our oppressors... Glory be to God, our gratitude to Adolf Hitler and loyalty to our Poglavnik, Ante Pavelic."
-- Archbishop Stepinac

[SamSam]

Maybe an explanation of the ratlines too.

[bobbys]

This is a new Bilge record when a person starts off with Godwins Law.

[Y Bar Ranch]

Thread needs more wookie

[SamSam]

This is a new Bilge record when a person starts off with Godwins Law.

No, you're mistaken. Godwin's Law has to do with comparisons to Nazis. This thread has to do with collaboration with Nazis. There is a difference.

[bobbys]

No, you're mistaken. Godwin's Law has to do with comparisons to Nazis. This thread has to do with collaboration with Nazis. There is a difference.

.

LOL.

here is what he is getting at.

Catholic Church...Bad.

Catholic Church... Nazis.

Santorum.... NaZi..

Chase is playing 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon here

[Peerie Maa]

.

LOL.

here is what he is getting at.

Catholic Church...Bad.

Catholic Church... Nazis.

Santorum.... NaZi..

Chase is playing 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon here

Not sure about that. He may be asking you to unravel the truth from that website with an agenda, and show that they did not get into bed with the Nazis at the highest level. No?

[bobbys]

Not sure about that. He may be asking you to unravel the truth from that website with an agenda, and show that they did not get into bed with the Nazis at the highest level. No?

.

He can start a thread about the Catholic Church in WW2 or anything else for that matter but this is what he wrote.

>>>I was doing research on the idiotic statements about gov't and religion Mr. Santorum has contributed to the media about his real beliefs. <<<.

Insinuating Mr Santorum has "real beliefs" .

Highly insulting to me as a Catholic.

Going by this logic I can pick any people and connect them to anything in History.

[Peerie Maa]

.

He can start a thread about the Catholic Church in WW2 or anything else for that matter but this is what he wrote.

>>>I was doing research on the idiotic statements about gov't and religion Mr. Santorum has contributed to the media about his real beliefs. <<<.

Insinuating Mr Santorum has "real beliefs" .

Highly insulting to me as a Catholic.

Going by this logic I can pick any people and connect them to anything in History.

Chase then said:

I got lost after about four pages. I meant to take and post some C&P sections to illustrate the above situation about how Hitler was able to buy if not full support at least silence from the RCC.

http://www.catholicarrogance.org/Cat...Concordat.html
I realize it is a big task. Burt for those of you who are at least a bit evangelical about the RCC

Can you go through this and break it down into parts and time line for us RCC dummies?

It does not look very good as a piece of history of the RCC to me.

Maybe that is true and it was a low point they would like to never have mentioned.

If so fine hope they never do that again. If that is true then can you explain to me what idiocy, to my mind, led them to do do this?

So rather than going into Attack Mode how about discussing the history?

[bobbys]

Chase then said:



So rather than going into Attack Mode how about discussing the history?

.

How about Explaining how Mr Santorum has anything to do with Nazis and Jews first

[Peerie Maa]

bobbys, now you don't want to be accused of trying to avoid the question do you?

[SamSam]

You keep getting it wrong. This is what the thread started as and what it is about...

I have referred in the past to the lack of Papal Court denouncement of the NAZI death camps and the annihilation of the Jews. It bothered me a bit since I could not readily find it to contribute to the thread. As this is off the original thread topic a bit I am starting a new thread.

He didn't connect Santorum with Nazis or Jews.

It's not

Catholic Church...Bad.

Catholic Church... Nazis.

Santorum.... NaZi..

It's more like

Catholic Church + Nazis = Bad

Santorum.... Generally an Idiot

What's obvious is your 6 degrees of obfuscation and diversion.

So, can you explain the collaboration between the Church and the Nazis?

[bobbys]

semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit,

[skuthorp]

I think you will find there was a mixed response, after all the clergy are only human and subject o to human fears and misjudgements, as well as malfeasance. I understand many priests ended up in concentration camps, many were involved in protection, and many were collaborators including many at the top. The Vatican probably bought it's physical survival by some degree of accommodation and certainly were involved in the shelter and identity change of some war criminals. I may be cynical here but as always survival of the Church trumphs it's congregations every time.

[Ian McColgin]

The site, catholicarroganc, is a bit of shrill propaganda so poorly documented and so venomously written that it's to be relied upon about as much as the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Anyone who writes this drivel anonomously has no business being even responded to. If one wants to research the various machinations of the Roman Catholic Church, there are plenty of sober responsible historians to read.

[SamSam]

semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit,

Oh c'mon now, this is doubly hypocritical. To begin with, when it comes to religion itself you'll claim the exact opposite. In this case, the pudding was offered in the OP.

You have no answer, methinks.

[johnw]

The Catholic Church of the 1930s, under Pius XI, was strongly against racism. He died in 1939. He did sign treaties with various countries in order to get them to leave the church alone. In return, I think the church left them alone. Keep in mind, the Vatican is smack dab in the middle of what was then Fascist Italy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_XI

[Peerie Maa]

The Catholic Church of the 1930s, under Pius XI, was strongly against racism. He died in 1939. He did sign treaties with various countries in order to get them to leave the church alone. In return, I think the church left them alone. Keep in mind, the Vatican is smack dab in the middle of what was then Fascist Italy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_XI

I read through the treaty signed with the Italian Government, none of the issues it dealt with were particularly contentious.

However in the German equivalent the Holy See undertook to support, and not to oppose the Nazi government in everything.

It would be interesting to understand why they felt the need to sign a concordat with Germany, as the case there was nothing like the need to regularise the status of the Vatican in Rome.

[johnw]

I read through the treaty signed with the Italian Government, none of the issues it dealt with were particularly contentious.

However in the German equivalent the Holy See undertook to support, and not to oppose the Nazi government in everything.

It would be interesting to understand why they felt the need to sign a concordat with Germany, as the case there was nothing like the need to regularise the status of the Vatican in Rome.

The fellow who was pope after Pius XI was the one who negotiated that treaty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_XII

The Venerable Pope Pius XII (Latin: Pius PP. XII; Italian: Pio XII), born Eugenio Marìa Giuseppe Giovanni Pacelli (2 March 1876 – 9 October 1958), reigned as Pope, head of the Catholic Church and sovereign of Vatican City State, from 2 March 1939 until his death in 1958.
Before election to the papacy, Pacelli served as secretary of the Department of Extraordinary Ecclesiastical Affairs, papal nuncio and Cardinal Secretary of State, in which capacity he worked to conclude treaties with European and Latin American nations, most notably the Reichskonkordat with Nazi Germany. The concordat of 1933 which saw the self-destruction of the Centre (Catholic) Party, on the orders of the Holy See, and Pacelli's leadership of the Catholic Church during World War II, including his "decision to stay silent in public about the fate of the Jews",^[1] remain the subject of controversy.

[johnw]

Bigger than the Edictum Mediolanense?



An evangelical Roman Catholic? Have you any idea how rare this combination is in truth?



Most slick on your part. I somehow doubt Mister F will be along in any real hurry to oblige you. Perhaps Emily though. . .

About 15 percent. I dated one in college.

[RodB]

Chase et al....

I fail to understand why my name is in the title of this thread... I just posted some links to try to show the basis of the beliefs of the Catholic Church ... so folks could see what they were demonizing.

The following is as good a summation as I could find... with good headings as to different subjects in this venue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholi...d_Nazi_Germany

I'll stay out of this thread.

RodB

[ChaseKenyon]

This is a new Bilge record when a person starts off with Godwins Law.

Hi B

good retort.

Made me stop and take a toke on my Ecig. I am trying to do a slow quit as non of the pill, patches , gum and such worked for me.

Did you think of this or just wait to see how I would respond following my op in effect?

from Wiki

Godwin's law applies especially to inappropriate, inordinate, or hyperbolic comparisons of other situations (or one's opponent) with Nazis. The law and its corollaries would not apply to discussions covering known mainstays of Nazi Germany such as genocide,eugenics or racial superiority, nor, more debatably, to a discussion of other totalitarian regimes or ideologies, since a Nazi comparison in those circumstances may be appropriate, in effect committing the fallacist's fallacy.


Your Serve l'oeuf all.

[ChaseKenyon]

"God, who directs the destiny of nations and controls the hearts of Kings, has given us Ante Pavelic and moved the leader of a friendly and allied people, Adolf Hitler, to use his victorious troops to disperse our oppressors... Glory be to God, our gratitude to Adolf Hitler and loyalty to our Poglavnik, Ante Pavelic."
-- Archbishop Stepinac

good addition I think many of us forget how far reaching Hitlers tentacles were extending to Croatia and beyond.

[ChaseKenyon]

.

LOL.

here is what he is getting at.

Catholic Church...Bad.

Catholic Church... Nazis.

Santorum.... NaZi..

Chase is playing 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon here

close remember my scientific bent,

Francis Bacon, 1st Viscount St Alban(s)
AS in multiple views considered and empirically tested equally without specific expectations.

[ChaseKenyon]

.

He can start a thread about the Catholic Church in WW2 or anything else for that matter but this is what he wrote.

>>>I was doing research on the idiotic statements about gov't and religion Mr. Santorum has contributed to the media about his real beliefs. <<<.

Insinuating Mr Santorum has "real beliefs" .

Highly insulting to me as a Catholic.

Going by this logic I can pick any people and connect them to anything in History.

No slight to Catholics intended just Santorums lake of concept of reality.

[ChaseKenyon]

.

How about Explaining how Mr Santorum has anything to do with Nazis and Jews first

a connection I did not indicate only that my curiosity occurred while researching some stuff on Santorum.

If you jump to a conclusion that I linked Santorum with NAZIs and Hitler then maybe we should start a new thread exploring why you seemingly immediately jumped to that position.

[ChaseKenyon]

Chase et al....

I fail to understand why my name is in the title of this thread... I just posted some links to try to show the basis of the beliefs of the Catholic Church ... so folks could see what they were demonizing.

The following is as good a summation as I could find... with good headings as to different subjects in this venue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholi...d_Nazi_Germany

I'll stay out of this thread.

RodB

I respect you as a Catholic even though I have a bad attitude from person experience with the RCC.

Not to butter you up but,

YHou seem to be a very erudite person and most importantly on this subject on who will own up and explain if they find out they had something is error.

We all make errors. As a CMfgE I am well versed in the US corporate manufacturing culture of CYA "blame it on someone else". In Japan ( I used to be in regular correspondence with a senior Division head at Sony we'd eat together when in the same time zone of the USA.) The corporate culture is not find who to blame, it is Ok All hands on deck even the janitor may have an idea lets fix this!

So even if you make now specific posts I would hope that you might keep track of the thread and step in to "connect the dots" on the variety of the post I hop we have. I warned everyone several times on several threads that I am out of the closet as to where my philosophically trained mind goes next. Basically I have decided that the bilge is in away my personal sandbox or canoe or XXXXX, and I will treat it as a group here for one of my BBQs and after dinner open forums. All knowledge is valuable all viewpoints are valuable, we all need to be careful to keep opinions and facts covered in different colors so as to be obvious. So times the fastest path to the real truth is to analyze someones opinion and seek to find where it originated form.
I have posted a mention of LJ and TD and my concept of a philosophical and technological analytic team based on our, WBF, majorly disproportionate number of pop ups on search engines as learned (AI) where to search by the search engines.

So I hope you will stick around. One of my criteria in hiring engineers and managers at 18 companies was are they up to having a drawn out hours long "argument" with me the boss , and their peers on topics, closed door sessions in the eng. conf rm, till they prove their point or I prove mine.

[Meli]

The catholic churches were not very keen on Comunists.
To be fair, comunists were not too nice to the catholic church.

Matter of the worst of too evils in their eyes.
I think it's pretty well established that the church puts it's survival above that of the individual every time.
No different from any business, and when you get down to brass tacks all churches are business's